|
On September 09 2011 05:51 hjkim1304 wrote:
this is ridiculous. GSL which has way more production value and better games... well kind of.. sort of. but yea GSL is THE tournament of SC2, no one can dispute that. comparing MLG and GSL is really impossible too and MLG is nowhere near GSL at the moment. This is just a long and ridiculous way of saying that ur bored of GSL. So what? No one forces you to watch GSL, just don't post a long thread about how GSL is getting boring.... (wait... 20 terrans... fuuuuuuuk) but u get my point.
indeed just watch games of slayers boxer owning up all those NA gosus and then watch leenock vs. boxer.
you will see how far ahead code a and code s players are in comparison to anyone else outside of korea
|
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote:
I know GSL isnt to blame for this. Its hard to create a perfect system. Im just coming up with some ideas.... I think adding more of a "new blood, its anyones game, any dog can have his day" element to the GSL could do it some good.
MLG for example has a open tournament anyone can compete in, and it is possible for someone from the open tournament to win the entire thing. I think that creates a element of mystique for the entire tournament that code S may benefit from trying to copy.
I think you're slightly on the wrong track.
MLG open brackets players very rarely make an impact on championship day (Naniwa excepted). To a lot of people they're just a side-show. In the tournament where the open-bracket did make a difference it was pretty controversial and I don't think it was celebrated at all as an underdog story (talking Puma winning NASL, especially Ret's #1 seed being made essentially worthless).
However, MLG does get a lot of new blood into championship sunday through the LXG with GomTV. Even if it's the Gom invites dominating, it's always a different set of Koreans (roughly). So that brings in fresh blood, which otherwise isn't available with MLG's relatively stagnant pool system (seriously the seeded players are like 80+% the same tournament to tournament, even with the invites people still complain how stagnant the pools are).
On the other hand, MLG's pool play is superior to GSL's pool play. Watching Bo1's is volative and losing half the player base from Bo1s' and on the first day means that a lot of people are going to have a blink-or-you-miss-it experience cheering on their favorites. That's not even getting into how cheesy Bo1's can be.
And I think other people have hit the nail on the head with too much TvT in Code S and the finals curse. Let's be honest, everyone judges a tournament by the grand finish, which means every season kind of turns into a let down even if there are good games leading up to the finals.
|
On September 09 2011 05:54 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:50 eggs wrote:On September 09 2011 05:41 farnham wrote:
we have our protoss hopes hongun, sage, puzzle, tassadar and jyp still in the gsl. san is out but he will bounce back again im sure. its certainly a bad stage. but lets not forget gsl march when protoss players stomped people like there is no tommorow. well the thread is about GSL's entertainment value, and honestly I don't care much at all about hongun, sage, or tassadar. it's true I haven't been paying as much attention to the recent seasons of GSL as I have before, but I just don't remember these 3 players being very fun to root for/against. Puzzle and JYP are memorable though. well if you dont watch gsl anyways its i dont know why you are posting in this thread
I watch GSL. I used to watch it religiously and never miss a match. in recent seasons i've been paying less attention, meaning I often just go to sleep rather than stay up, and then check the results the following morning and only watch VODs of recommended games. I just don't remember many Hongun, Sage, or Tassadar games being highly recommended to watch, so I don't care much about them.
and that's the POINT of this thread, hence why I am posting in it. " Code S might be losing entertainment value." For me, yes it has, because like I said earlier, I used to never miss a match but recently even Code S has been lackluster to me and I've been skipping matches entirely if the LR polls don't highly recommend games between players I don't care about.
Is that easier for you to understand or would you like me to explain it to you like you're 5 years old?
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 05:38 Sultan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:16 eggs wrote:On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote:
The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches.
In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot. Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament. Thank you for adding some sense into this thread. Its the Boxer Effect -- pretty much every Korean Terran cites him as their role model and inspiration to get into E-Sports.
2/3 is not just terran heavy, that's beyond stastical expectations. First, assuming that everyone chose their race for the playstyle they liked or for other similar reasons, you'd wind up with either approximately equal distribution among races for skill OR you'd wind up with one race with a lot more than the others due to simply having a superior playstyle overall (which might be an argument for terran having more skilled players, because it's a better race. That's also a balance argument, so we'll skip that one for now). Now, that's not necessarily a good assumption, so we'll skew it a little bit to account for other outside influences, like choosing terran because Boxer is your hero. You should still wind up with a far better distribution of the best skilled players among the races than we currently have, unless something else is going on. Nothing other than terran being a better race than the others can mathematically account for the distribution we see in code S right now. This isn't a current metagame thing, things have been swinging in this direction for a long time now, it just took time to get there.
Either there's something everyone is missing going on, or else terran is just plain a superior race. It makes sense that it would be, it's a more complete race. It has more unit variety and better unit synergy, and it has more upgrades and more varied upgrades. Some of its units are just plain superior to the unit alternatives from other races, although that's not indicative in and of itself. The major issue is the plain strength of terran defense at all points in the game with their incredible building utility: you never have to kill your own buildings to get out of your base for example, and you can hide CC (AND USE THEM!) until it's safe to move them to the base you are taking.
I'm not necessarily saying that Terran is overpowered for sure, but it certainly looks like it, if only by the sheer statistical improbability of having 20/32 (that's insane btw, I don't think many people really understand just how big a majority that is statistically) belong to that one race.
|
For how lopsided the Ghost vs HT battles are looking in every pro level TvP, I am pretty sure Blizzard intended for templar to have the amulet. It was just that terrans were not using ghosts back then because they were doing fine without them. So when tosses started surviving the early mmm onslaught and making it to late game (which you need to get HTs as well as research both storm and KA btw) the terrans were caught with their pants down. They would run in a group of mmm and get stormed and then say that HTs were too strong. People were just starting to implement ghosts when KA was taken out, and things have been going downhill for toss ever since, as the winrates show.
|
On September 09 2011 06:00 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:38 Sultan wrote:On September 09 2011 05:16 eggs wrote:On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote:
The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches.
In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot. Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament. Thank you for adding some sense into this thread. Its the Boxer Effect -- pretty much every Korean Terran cites him as their role model and inspiration to get into E-Sports. Nothing other than terran being a better race than the others can mathematically account for the distribution we see in code S right now.
False.
Map pools.
|
I watch MLG to see entertaining games and see new players rise up. I watch GSL to see top level play and learn while having almost all entertainment from Tastosis.
|
On September 09 2011 05:56 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:54 farnham wrote:On September 09 2011 05:50 eggs wrote:On September 09 2011 05:41 farnham wrote:
we have our protoss hopes hongun, sage, puzzle, tassadar and jyp still in the gsl. san is out but he will bounce back again im sure. its certainly a bad stage. but lets not forget gsl march when protoss players stomped people like there is no tommorow. well the thread is about GSL's entertainment value, and honestly I don't care much at all about hongun, sage, or tassadar. it's true I haven't been paying as much attention to the recent seasons of GSL as I have before, but I just don't remember these 3 players being very fun to root for/against. Puzzle and JYP are memorable though. well if you dont watch gsl anyways its i dont know why you are posting in this thread I watch GSL. I used to watch it religiously and never miss a match. in recent seasons i've been paying less attention, meaning I often just go to sleep rather than stay up, and then check the results the following morning and only watch VODs of recommended games. I just don't remember many Hongun, Sage, or Tassadar games being highly recommended to watch, so I don't care much about them. Is that easier for you to understand or would you like me to explain it to you like you're 5 years old?
sage had amazing games in the gstl and is the ace of nshoseo the protoss team that completely owned up the gstl venus division
hongun was ro4 last gsl and has the most consistent results of any protoss player
tassadar is the code a runnerup of last season
all players that are very well notable to anybody that follows the scene
|
i thinkt here are too many games ... i cant pay attention for that long so it all starts to blur.
I think GSL is awesome, but i couldnt possibly watch it all all the time - and i really cant afford to pay for it as the iterations come thick and fast.
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:02 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 06:00 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 05:38 Sultan wrote:On September 09 2011 05:16 eggs wrote:On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote:
The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches.
In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot. Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament. Thank you for adding some sense into this thread. Its the Boxer Effect -- pretty much every Korean Terran cites him as their role model and inspiration to get into E-Sports. Nothing other than terran being a better race than the others can mathematically account for the distribution we see in code S right now. False. Map pools.
You are correct, it is possible that the maps are what are causing it, so that would require map analysis. I'm merely guessing here, but I suspect that the maps, on average, are not hugely terran favored by design in the TvP and TvZ matchups. I'm sure there are a couple of course, but I doubt there are many. If anyone is able to prove me wrong, I'd be glad to see it. Still, unless the maps were hugely terran favored on the whole, that would not account for a 20/32 distribution towards that one race.
It might be a combination of terran having slightly better players on average in GSL, being a slightly (but not hugely better race), and having favored maps that is causing it, but then the maps would have to be significantly terran favored vs. zerg and vs. protoss.
|
I stopped watching GSL Code A when Moletrap got there to do w/e that is that hes doing (some still say hes a caster?), not saying I like the others either but if somehow we could clone The Casting Archon that'll be great, GSL needs Day[9] and DJwheat as well.
It gets more exciting to watch MLG cuz u can relate to the crowd which is huge unlike that tiny GSL studio which sometimes its not even full. The system bracket and stuff is kinda messy also, u get to see not always good games (theres seeded players there that dont deserve a spot in code S anymore, not this time at least) lots of mirror matchups only as well plus seeded players from other tournaments not being fair with going through code B-A. Things need to be fixed thats for sure BUT I do believe GOMTV is doing its best and I love it, what GOM brings us is better than not having anything at all ^^. Post on their Forums, help them get better. The better they get the more entertained we will be.
|
On September 09 2011 06:32 danbel1005 wrote:
I stopped watching GSL Code A when Moletrap got there to do w/e that is that hes doing (some still say hes a caster?), not saying I like the others either but if somehow we could clone The Casting Archon that'll be great, GSL needs Day[9] and DJwheat as well.
It gets more exciting to watch MLG cuz u can relate to the crowd which is huge unlike that tiny GSL studio which sometimes its not even full. The system bracket and stuff is kinda messy also, u get to see not always good games (theres seeded players there that dont deserve a spot in code S anymore, not this time at least) lots of mirror matchups only as well plus seeded players from other tournaments not being fair with going through code B-A. Things need to be fixed thats for sure BUT I do believe GOMTV is doing its best and I love it, what GOM brings us is better than not having anything at all ^^. Post on their Forums, help them get better. The better they get the more entertained we will be.
i dont think moletrap is doing a bad job at all
he is constantly improving
i really like the code a caster trio actually
i kinda agree with the gomtv studio situation though
they should do more special events outside of that studio
maybe they can make a deal with koex as scbw scene is fading out
|
The biggest entertainment killer for me is the TvT. I am not watching this boring shit, so this season has once again no Code A or Code S finals for me. Meh.
|
This just isn't how its done in Korea though, OSL/MSL have always been fine with no quarrel about whether the format is bad. I think its just outrageously bad luck on GOMs part, with shitty finals and an incredible number or terrans.
|
Well, the only reason I think Code S and GSL in general is getting more boring is because of the number of terrans.
20 terrans
7 zergs
5 protoss in code S....
Gonna be so many TvT's in this GSL. Though TvT is fun it's not fun to only see it.
|
On September 09 2011 06:34 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 06:32 danbel1005 wrote:
I stopped watching GSL Code A when Moletrap got there to do w/e that is that hes doing (some still say hes a caster?), not saying I like the others either but if somehow we could clone The Casting Archon that'll be great, GSL needs Day[9] and DJwheat as well.
It gets more exciting to watch MLG cuz u can relate to the crowd which is huge unlike that tiny GSL studio which sometimes its not even full. The system bracket and stuff is kinda messy also, u get to see not always good games (theres seeded players there that dont deserve a spot in code S anymore, not this time at least) lots of mirror matchups only as well plus seeded players from other tournaments not being fair with going through code B-A. Things need to be fixed thats for sure BUT I do believe GOMTV is doing its best and I love it, what GOM brings us is better than not having anything at all ^^. Post on their Forums, help them get better. The better they get the more entertained we will be. i dont think moletrap is doing a bad job at all he is constantly improving i really like the code a caster trio actually i kinda agree with the gomtv studio situation though they should do more special events outside of that studio maybe they can make a deal with koex as scbw scene is fading out
While this is unfortunately true Kespa would never ever ever go through with this deal.
|
Has nothing to do with tvt. I love tvt and I still find code S boring atm. They need to do something to get some of the amazing code A and Code B people into Code S. Code S needs new blood baaaadly. Maybe a Code A/S reset and another open GSL?
|
I find GSL to stll be entertaining.
I think you guys have such high standards for everything.
|
I don`t see it losing any entertainment value. Especially compared to other tournaments out there its far above and better IMO. The terran thing is not GOM`s fault. Blame the game at it`s highest level. The reason you see a lot of movement of players going down and up Code A is because there is so many damn good koreans they can all beat each other and the game is more volatile compared to BW.
|
One thing I really hate with GSL is the login and pay to view system. I just want quick easy access to waste some time and lazily watch some vods not pay to watch some games for some games that may suck and are already full of commercials.
Thats one thing I like about Dreamhack tournaments and broodwar tournaments. They are so easilty accessible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
