On September 08 2011 15:15 GrimReefer wrote: i think the problem with the GSL is the players have a week to prepare for every match-up. they come to every match over prepared with extreme knowledge of every build and tendency of their opponent. MLG is the exact opposite except for pool-play. players don't know who they're going to face, and they have little time to prepare. having a full week to prepare leads to boring chess matches. if you want to make the GSL more dynamic, take away the full week of preparation time. the players need to play multiple matches in a day. however; this is something the korean players don't seem to like, at least that's the impression i've gather from hearing a few of the complaints from the mlg's. gsl is left either catering to the players and allowing them ample time to prepare for each match-up, or catering to the fans and having the players play multiple match-ups in a day.
Yes ... very well put. The GSL style actually doesnt put "a player" against "another player" but rather "a player and his team and his preparation and his scouting of the other players tactics" against another such individual. There would be an easy solution to this: each rounds matchups are randomly decided ON THE SPOT, right before they play the games and all are played at the same time (and some are broadcasted later).
What? People really think giving players no preparation time results in better games? What are you smoking? Part of the magic of starcraft is the game that we get where one guy figures out someone else COMPLETELY, thats a GOOD game, where one player counters everything the other player does perfectly... not some game where it's two guys throwing mud and sticks at each other.
yeah totally. MC against Losira? (can't remember) in the GSL finals was awesome. the way he perfectly figured out his opponent and killed him with sentries/forcefields every time was one of the most entertaining series i have ever seen.
but seriously, maybe in the long run having a week to prepare is the best way to develop the meta game, but right now it's just meh... very few new builds seem to be coming out of all this prep time. i'd rather see the more natural skills of the players shine through, not who has the best practice partners.
What drew me to the GSL Code S has always been watching the pinnacle of SC2 action. They always had the very best players duking it out. I couldn't go anywhere else to see the best of the best play. Now with Koreans travelling everywhere, you can get that from a bunch of tournaments.
Don't get me wrong, I still love Code S. And I still watch most of the games. But I don't get hooked as much as I used to because I can see a MVP or MC or whoever compete elsewhere.
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: Some ideas. Im hearing alot from people that they think GSL is getting boring and they are watching MLG more and more cuz they like its environment / atmosphere better. They cannot put their finger on why, but they just are more entertained by MLG.
Ok im gonna bite this bait. You cannot compare GSL to MLG.
If GSL was run in the same way as MLG when it comes to streamimng we would have: 1 Match of the Ro32 casted - big chance of a well know player rolfstomping a weaker player. 1 Match of the Ro16 casted - as above - the casted match would be of some other big name.Some preety cool game will happen and then you get the info "Sorry we picked other two games so it wont be shown" by MLG staff. 2 matches of Ro8 - It would get better. We would have a 100% increase of the amount of matches streamed. of course as stated above. We could get some totally boring one sided games. 2 matches of Ro4 - Holy check... We get all the matches of the semis casted... What a nice surprise. 1 Final match - well you cant have more ^^
Ok the streaming point is done. Lets now compare the format: In GSL Code S we have 15 people fighting to stay or get into code S. Out of them only 6 will move on.
Now MLG and its pools.... To get into a pool play you need first get through the open bracket which could be somewhere from 256-512+ players. Only 4 people of it get into pool play - and even if they get there and place high they would still need to get through the open bracket at the next MLG. Once you get placed in pools you need a miracle to get kicked out of them.... Prime example is Incontrol. For the last few MLG all he is doing is win a ONE series in the entire MLG and he still stays in pool play.
To sum it up. MLG pool play system is more stagnant than the GSL code S. The only remedying factor is that MLG asks GSL to send in 4 players to liven up the pools a bit. But still. The amount of returning GSL invites is a bit sad since its once again stagnates the pool. Since there is a 50% chance of getting the same koreans for the next MLG.
To be honest before drawing a conclusion i would like to wait till 2012 season cause MLG hinted that they are thinking about revamping their tournament system which is way old and doesnt work well with the new boom of e-sports.
Still right now GSL > MLG when it comes to experience.
I can only speak for myself, but the reason I won't renew my GSL ticket next season is the ridiculous amount of terrans. I'm really fed up with TvT's atm...
I think part of the reason is not that Code S is not getting any "new blood", it's actually the opposite. A lot of the old "fan favourites" with history and interesting backstories have been knocked out of Code S and replaced with a new lineup of guys Terrans who, although they earned their place, don't have anything special going for them and aren't that well-known.
It's like in Open Season one, people complained that the games were boring not just because of the map pool and all-ins, but also because we had no idea who anyone was, and thus had no vested emotional interest in the outcome. At the start of 2011, things got a lot better because we already knew a lot about the Code S players, some history had developed, and we knew who the villains (Bitbybit, Idra) and heroes (Fruit, MC) were. We had someone to root for. But recently, as the "big names" start to fall from Code S, we're starting to see a lot of games between relatively unknown players again.
Fruitdealer is a prime example. As we've discovered this year, he's not really a Code S quality player, but the people love him anyway and he's a crowd-drawer. Maka is another player with a large following, based on his eccentric style and interviews in the past. But players like Fruitdealer, Boxer and Maka have been replaced in Code S by guys like asd, Happy and Virus. And don't get me wrong, all of these players earned their place and have a right to be there, but as of now they don't have any history or particular characteristics which separate them from the average Code S Terran player.
Some of the newcomers have managed to distinguish themselves, for example Keen with cool ceremonies and Coca with his MLG run and sick ZvP. But for the most part, when I'm watching GSL I hope that the games between noname players will be over quickly so that we can get to the "name value" games faster. Of course, there's nothing Gom can do about this, and hopefully over the next few months the race disparity will balance somewhat, but for now we're going to have to put up with a lot of not-so-exciting TvTs between relative unknowns, at least in the ro32.
Comparing GSL to MLG is kind of like comparing apples to oranges, but I'll say why I've not restarted watching GSL since the open seasons:
- stupid system that allows mediocre players to stop around in code S forever if they win one game a month (looking at you Tester), everyone bitches about how MLG's pool system allows Machine/Incontrol to stop around in perpetuity but nobody questions GSL. Code A, both in qualification and the tournament itself, is also a pathetically structured crapshoot
- the amount of Terrans in there really doesn't help. TvT is ok, but I love watching ZvP the most which happens so rarely
- has reduced itself to Koreans + Huk. I could get more excited when Jinro and Idra were top 8 contenders, now its just people I know nothing about. I know about some of those that switched from Brood War, but aside from those, who are you? Who is TOP? I can watch more or less every single foreigner streaming or in tournaments every week. I'm supposed to care about Jjakji why exactly?
Guess what- Sc2 is frikin imbalanced. The entire design of the Protoss race is broken. Protoss is terrible against Terran and zerg. The best Protoss player (MC) is in code a and now instead I get to watch more terrans in Code S (as if there were'nt enough before). Yay- go Terran. TvT is boring- slow and predictable. The Protoss race is lost and does not know what to do. Unless something changes I would not be surprised if their are like no Protoss players in Code S after 4 months.
GSL has lost all of its entertainment value for me. I play Protoss and want to watch Protoss play. I also hate watching ZvT, its my least favorite matchup. 27 terran and zergs in code s means lots of tvz.
On September 08 2011 16:11 iNcontroL wrote: small audiences detract from the ambiance.. GSL audience isn't going crazy or anything.. their finals don't have the feel of finals from BW etc.
Prime time issue. Obviously with SC2 being global and GSL being in korea it is absolutely impossible to hit "primetime" (whatever that means these days) but 2am in USA and 10 am in EU.. kinda rough missing the mark there. Too late and too early respectively to get a bunch of hype so a lot of the viewing audience is relegated to vods where they are spread out and alienated from a unified excitement. This is of course a problem that can't really be overcome but someone somewhere should be getting paid good money to try and find a way to make this better.
well it's funny you mention that, because one of my beefs with NASL was that they scheduled their show straight in the middle of primetime
if i have to choose between watching for example, a new futurama episode, or watching a starcraft game live, i'll watch the vod of starcraft later
now i'm not even that casual about starcraft, so imagine what someone who is would think if they had to choose between watching hot television show #43 or sc2
i know you're not directly associated with nasl but this has been something swirling around in the back of my head for a while so i thought it was kind of funny you brought it up
i think of all the leagues think TSL nailed the golden timeslot for starcraft, at 2pm on a weekend the most your average nerd will have planned is to be hungover
On September 08 2011 17:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: GSL has lost all of its entertainment value for me. I play Protoss and want to watch Protoss play. I also hate watching ZvT, its my least favorite matchup. 27 terran and zergs in code s means lots of tvz.
I would argue ZvT is the most dynamic match up in the game. But to each their own.
For me, GSL is the absolute pinnacle and I'm loving it at the moment. I do have some issues with its format, I consider Code S, a little bit too stagnant. I would prefer more newer blood every time. Right now, only 25% have a chance of falling down to Code A, I would prefer if 25% have a guaranteed chance of falling.
Apart from that, I can understand the concerns of the protoss fanboys. When terrans were not performing well, I definitely did not enjoy GSL as much. But now, I'm absolutely stoked If GSL had a 33% racial balance and 33% racial champions, I have a feeling this thread would not have existed.
I would like to extend some sympathy but I would by lying if I said I felt any. :p
There's too many Terran players and too many pretentious macro games. I don't want to sit and wait for 15 minutes while players max out, that's boring.
A lot of things Gom can't rectify. But one thing they can rectify is that god awful observer. I don't know how many times I see stuff happening on the minimap and the observer just shows random stuff that doesn't matter. I think one time I actually saw a drop on the minimap, and all the stuff died, and the observer still doesn't cut to it.
If you want to make viewers think they're watching the most gosu players doing the most gosu stuff, you might want to show them that. IMO, this is why I love watching Korean BW games a lot more than foreign tournaments. The Korean observer is so good at catching details that really show how much better the players are than regular guys like me.
I completely feel the other way around. GSL is much better then MLG imo, the format is just much better without stupid disadvantages for players having to play way too many games. The MLG winner is virtually always someone who won his pool, the advantage of getting far without having to play as much games then is just huge. When i watch MLG it just seems that 90% of the games don't matter (all the lower bracket stuff) as the winner coming out from that will just get demolished by one of the pool winners anyway. GSL has just had the bad luck that many matches recently have been boring, it's not really the fault of the system.
I'll watch MLG over GSL when Hell freezes over. Why would anyone ever do that? MLG has the worst tournament format that I know out of all big tournaments. Extended series pretty much always destroys the finals. GSL has the best players in the world, and the best casters. Case closed.
On September 08 2011 06:09 Hybris wrote: As a protoss player, I have lost alot of interest due to the severe lack of protoss players in code s. I still watch those protoss players religiously though.
Same here, it's been a little dull lately for Protoss players. I can only watch so many mass EMP victories that roll into infinite "OMG IS IT BANSHEE OPENING" TVTs before I stop watching.
At least when Zerg was at the bottom of the pile there were a couple champions holding it down.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
I would have to agree, watching tanklines sit around for a few hours is all good, but when that starts happening almost every day it gets real boring, real fast :/
For me GSL is much more entertaining than MLG because at MLG we see fights of "master league vs platinum" when it not korean vs korean, of course there are some exceptions. And Code S is challenge for best of the best. NASL is not very popular.
i think gsl format is kind of entertaining it is just that they have no power on the game balance and this is what is screwing up their format the most at the moment
I would have to agree that a major problem code S has is that every new player has to qualifiy for code A first. Code S is somewhat "pre-determined" in that you know that a huge portion of the players you see right now you'll see again next season.
In each and every sports, (nearly) each team has to re-qualify each season to get to the playoffs or w/e. The Dallas Mavericks could finish...last...in the next regular season for all we know. In soccer, qualifiying for the european champions league has to be achieved each and every year. Either through national league or by winning the champions league itself. In my opinion, only the code S winner and maybe the runner up should be guaranteed code S the next season. Each and everyone should have to requalify in a huge qualification tournament.
EPT
If GSL had a 33% racial balance and 33% racial champions, I have a feeling this thread would not have existed.
