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On September 08 2011 08:21 leandroqm wrote:The reason? UP & DOWN MATCHES!Even tho they are exciting to watch, it hurts Code S and Code A value. It would be muuuuuuch more exciting if the first set of losers from Code S had to fight to stay in Code S by themselves instead of the U&D matches. Some other ideas: + Show Spoiler +
Top X from Code A should receive DIRECT Code S spot for THE SAME season.
Code A ends right before Code S start, allowing for a single player (if skilled enough) to WIN BOTH TOURNAMENTS.
Code A finalists should get MORE PRIZES for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
4th ... [X number] should get just the Code S seed and nothing else.
OR 1st get to participate on the Code S tournament while 2nd+3rd+4th ... [X number] get just the seeding + small prize.
Bottom X Code S players are dropped to Code A for the next season.
[X beeing a magic number greater or equal to 4 players]
What do you guys think?
I'd disagree with that. The point of the Up and Down matches is to determine who is actually good enough to enter Code S and who should move down to Code A. It's purpose is to both allow "new blood" into Code S, and to allow the players who are no longer playing at the height of the abilities to be moved down to Code A, directly based on their abilities matched against other Code A and low-Code S players.
For example, although Ryung didn't qualify for the July Up and Downs at first, he did win a wildcard tournament for the chance to be in the Up and Downs, and proceeded to go 4-0 in his group.
In that Up and Down alone we had 6 players qualify in one way or another for Code S, who previously weren't qualified. MMA, Keen, Ryung and Puzzle all did well in Code S August.
In fact, none of the players who moved up to Code S from Code A actually went back to the Up and Downs.
This proves that the Up and Down matches allow players to move up to Code S and stay there if they're good enough. Even Noblesse beat MC, who many people believe to be high level Code S material.
BUT The Up and Downs give players like Keen and aLive, who stayed in Code S through the Up and Downs, a chance to redeem themselves and prove they're still better than the new blood in Code A. I'd say its a perfectly fare system with a bit more memory than simply dumping down the worst Code S players and promoting the best Code A in their place. It makes sure that just because someone like MC looses in code S doesn't mean he's out quite yet. He did end up dropping down to code A, but that's after he went 0-2 in Code S AND 1-3 in code A. The more matches a player plays, the better idea we have of their true skill at the moment, and obviously MC doesn't have what it takes to make in Code S. But at least he had the chance to redeem himself in the Up and Downs first (or in this case, to prove that he did indeed deserve to be bumped down too Code A).
Ok, now that that's out of the way I guess it's time for people to complain and try to tell me that playing less games is somehow a better way to determine someone's skill.... And I'll point out that theres a reason semi-finals are bo5 and finals are bo7...
Ok, and as for the whole aspect of whether GSL is more fun to watch or not, here's my view on things:
MLG is a fun event, and I won't begin to deny that, but the way MLG is designed it's designed to allow as many people play and get into the tournament as possible... And yet we only see a fraction of the games, even between the top players. We don't get all the games casted, there are plenty of storylines we never hear abut because of that. Even if some guy comes through the open stage and crushes face, they still only get a half decent seed later on (I think.... I don' actually know, because their rules are too complicated <_<). I wonder how well Trimaster will do at the next MLG, because unless he has suddenly just had a breakthrough in his game, he may well disappear into relative obscurity again.
The GSL on the other hand allows players who have been staying in korea and working towards it to have a stage to showcase their abilities with enough time to prepare new builds, new styles, or simply beat people at the current game, depending on how they feel like playing, and yet still offers enough memory in it's system to allow players who are slumping a bit an extra chance to keep going strong. The whole design of the tournament allows for the best players to actually play at their best, provided they're not traveling too much etc. outside of the GSL. It just happens that at this time Terrans are tearing it up.. The same sort of thing happened in broodwar plenty of times, where one race just seemed to be better than the others, and SC2 isn't immune to that effect.
Both the GSl and MLG have their merits, and their issues. GSL has somewhat poor english production quality, inaccessable hours (and yes, I do believe that GOM should rebroadcast later that day, it's not hard to set up a recorded broadcast to show again at a later date), and the issue of TvTs being quite common, as well as teams of casters that are not as well loved as Tastosis. MLG however has too many games, we dont get to see all the really good ones, and can cause problems for the players with the insane ruleset.
I consider the GSL to be my "staple" tournament, especially since it's spread out over months, rather than a few days. MLG is the "holy crap, this event is gonna be cool" feeling where it's got a lot of hype, a lt of cool casting combinations, and lots of stuff to watch.
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I think GOM is failing really bad with the hype around GSL and GSTL. You don't get awesome hype videos ala BW, you wont see any sort of footage of your favorite player or anything like this. And most of the games aint that good either.
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The only problem with GSL is that there are no fangirls, fanclubs, and no "hype."
"3...2...1... LEE JAE DONG HWAITING!!! 2...1... KIM TAEK YONG HWAITING!"
If you've never heard fanclubs screaming for players in Brood War events you haven't lived. This is something I really miss from BW. People don't seem to get as excited over just seeing their favorite players play as they used to.
It's strange: though the games are often just as tactical and exciting, you never hear the fans cheering, or see very many cuts to a crowd going crazy. Sometimes Tastosis doesn't put much energy into building tension and hyping up unexpected events at GSL. At MLGs, by contrast, you have people going nuts for the incredible plays from pros, you have hype, people cheering, and loud reactions to unexpected plays. People want autographs, to take pictures, and there's a community atmosphere. I think part of the problem is GOM's tiny studio.
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On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote:
I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Very sadly, this is the reason i stopped watching GSL.
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i used to watch gsl just because wanted to see idra's hardwork for those years in korea pay off and now i just watch because tasteless and artosis are pretty funny. I haven't watched the finals since nestea rolled that cheesy protoss and could care less who does well and wins. I miss the atmosphere that brood war games had. I dont know if it was the music, screaming girls, yelling korean commentators, or the flashing lights and camera movements. Just felt cooler. I also watch only the free video and with the new high graphics with lights and lasers everywhere it is hard to see what the hell is going on sometimes. MLG is my favorite to watch with all good commentators and better atmosphere and I enjoy seeing foreigners do well.
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The complaints against GOM in this thread are so ridiculous.
I can't believe you guys expect free HQ streaming for a production of this quality and magnitude that is done in KOREA.
Oh, its too hard to follow? Then pay for the premium package, you'll get HQ streaming and access to all the VODs, which are posted almost instantly after the games are finished.
The format sucks? Then what would you suggest and implement that would be better, more effective, etc? GOM is constantly doing their best to update their format and improve it to better their league/tournament. Can't hate them for trying to create the best league possible. Leagues and tournaments need a certain level of volatility. People complain about wanting to see new blood, but without volatility it would always be the same "top players." And other people just want to see the "top players" then watch invitationals.
Blahblah match-up suck/is boring. So suddenly GOM has control over who plays in their tournament and what race they play? GOM has no control over how good the players are, and more specifically what kind of results they produce. Would you prefer GOM edit maps to be specifically disadvantaged for that race? Or if they barred players of a specific race from playing? That would be stupid. If you have problems with balance go whine to Blizzard.
Back in the days of BW people followed a LR thread religiously waiting for a TLer living in Korea to update them on what was actually happening in the games. There were no streams, but people still stayed up late just to read periodic lines of text updating them on what was happening.
You new "SC fans" are spoiled. Appreciate the fact that eSports has grown to this level.
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On September 08 2011 08:55 bokchoi wrote:
The complaints against GOM in this thread are so ridiculous.
I can't believe you guys expect free HQ streaming for a production of this quality and magnitude that is done in KOREA.
Oh, its too hard to follow? Then pay for the premium package, you'll get HQ streaming and access to all the VODs, which are posted almost instantly after the games are finished.
The format sucks? Then what would you suggest and implement that would be better, more effective, etc? GOM is constantly doing their best to update their format and improve it to better their league/tournament. Can't hate them for trying to create the best league possible. Leagues and tournaments need a certain level of volatility. People complain about wanting to see new blood, but without volatility it would always be the same "top players." And other people just want to see the "top players" then watch invitationals.
Blahblah match-up suck/is boring. So suddenly GOM has control over who plays in their tournament and what race they play? GOM has no control over how good the players are, and more specifically what kind of results they produce. Would you prefer GOM edit maps to be specifically disadvantaged for that race? Or if they barred players of a specific race from playing? That would be stupid. If you have problems with balance go whine to Blizzard.
Back in the days of BW people followed a LR thread religiously waiting for a TLer living in Korea to update them on what was actually happening in the games. There were no streams, but people still stayed up late just to read periodic lines of text updating them on what was happening.
You new "SC fans" are spoiled. Appreciate the fact that eSports has grown to this level.
Erm, yes? That's one of the major features of custom maps, imo. If Terrans is dominating and winning 66% (number pulled out of my ass) in the GSL, create maps that are less Terran friendly in order to get that number down. That's what they've been doing in BW for god knows how long, and it was the exact reason why maps like Tal Darim were produced.
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My biggest problem with GSL is the crowd. It seems so small compared to MLG.
GSL outside of korea? Oh wow...
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There's so much they could learn/copy from professional BW. The tournament structure making it possible to get through qualifiers and win the championship during the same tournament, giving higher seeds to players who go deep in the brackets, rearranging brackets in Ro8/something according to GSL points to prevent top candidates meeting before the finals, make tournaments last longer to build up the hype and make winning the championship more prestigeous. Code S/Code A separation is just stupid in my view. TvT sucks when it's over half of the matches but what can GomTV do? It's ultimately up to the players to win games.
About GSTL: I do love winner stays on/all-kill format where players just go godmode and demolish the other team but only when it's a special treat like in BW. Most of the season is played in the "normal" format and teams can't rely on their ace players to single-handedly win matches and you actually have to have depth in your roster.
The overall production value has a lot of room for improvement aswell. The graphics used to be really goofy and not so professional looking (I still remember those military ranks they had in the open seasons, seriously wtf) compared to OGN broadcasts for example and they still somewhat are. Use a consistent theme throughout the GSL/broadcasts and keep it simple. Just watch OGN/MBCGame and you'll understand what I mean. Camerawork is ok but as someone mentioned they have to be quick to catch those moments.
I really don't know or understand the technical difficulties and obstacles but the SQ stream is just pathetic, you barely can follow what's going on (income/supplies/production). I've supported ESPORTS a couple of times but the HQ stream is still pretty lame when I get full HD goodness and relatively good games for free from tournaments like Dreamhack or Assembly. The VOD service is great but VODs don't really cut it for me. Lower the prices or improve the quality.
And more Tastosis. Probably wishful thinking. 
Don't know if this makes any sense at all or if it's just nitpicking. Just my two cents. 
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On September 08 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 08:55 bokchoi wrote:
The complaints against GOM in this thread are so ridiculous.
I can't believe you guys expect free HQ streaming for a production of this quality and magnitude that is done in KOREA.
Oh, its too hard to follow? Then pay for the premium package, you'll get HQ streaming and access to all the VODs, which are posted almost instantly after the games are finished.
The format sucks? Then what would you suggest and implement that would be better, more effective, etc? GOM is constantly doing their best to update their format and improve it to better their league/tournament. Can't hate them for trying to create the best league possible. Leagues and tournaments need a certain level of volatility. People complain about wanting to see new blood, but without volatility it would always be the same "top players." And other people just want to see the "top players" then watch invitationals.
Blahblah match-up suck/is boring. So suddenly GOM has control over who plays in their tournament and what race they play? GOM has no control over how good the players are, and more specifically what kind of results they produce. Would you prefer GOM edit maps to be specifically disadvantaged for that race? Or if they barred players of a specific race from playing? That would be stupid. If you have problems with balance go whine to Blizzard.
Back in the days of BW people followed a LR thread religiously waiting for a TLer living in Korea to update them on what was actually happening in the games. There were no streams, but people still stayed up late just to read periodic lines of text updating them on what was happening.
You new "SC fans" are spoiled. Appreciate the fact that eSports has grown to this level. Erm, yes? That's one of the major features of custom maps, imo. If Terrans is dominating and winning 66% (number pulled out of my ass) in the GSL, create maps that are less Terran friendly in order to get that number down. That's what they've been doing in BW for god knows how long, and it was the exact reason why maps like Tal Darim were produced.
Actually, I'm pretty sure they did this for the Code A qualifiers. IIRC, the maps they played on were Zerg- and Protoss-favored maps.
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I watch th GSL almost every day, I love the team league aswell as the normal leagues. I guess what you can't put your finger on is the fact that the level of play is much higher at the GSL and hence for the low tier players and "not as-hardcore" fans, it is not as entertaining (less crazy basetrade games etc).
Also, TvT's, TvT's everywhere.
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Once a year they should have a tournament where each korean pro team chooses 3 or so players from there lineup depending on Teamleague results and have a 32 man tourny like that. Can't think or another way to have the best players inside a tournament.
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honestly would like gom to start making maps that are anti-terran. it was required in bw and should be put in place again.
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For me the #1 contributor to my diminishing interest in GSL is that it's nearly impossible to watch live. VODs are nice and everything but it's just not quite the same. I try to stay up sometimes to watch matches I'm excited a bout but usually fall asleep like hafl way through the first or second game.
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I am admitting that I haven't read much of the OP but I do not believe code S is losing its entertainment value. It is the most important esports tournament to me, the best players are in Korea and they are in code S.
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I lost some interest in GSL because there's barely any protoss. I still buy season pass and watch every protoss games but yea =(
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Code S is only gaining entertainment value for me. o_O It's currently Terran-heavy (which I suppose is kind of disappointing, though results are results), but I enjoy its map pool the most out of any SC2 tournament, the quality of games are the highest, and Tastosis is hilarious to listen to. I also feel it has the best production value.
Only potential "con" I see is for cheapsters who don't want to fork over a couple dollars for high quality live and VODs. Watching in 240p in the wee hours of the morning probably isn't that great.
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I did forget to mention the crowd aspect. It would be nice to see GOM get a larger crowd for their regular matches, and they could certainly do a lot more for the stream as far as hype and such is concerned, but before they do that, they need to shape up how they handle casting their finals ceremonies and such.... I'm sick of barely being able to hear Jon translate over the korean casters talking, or missing so much of the Q&A stuff because of trouble translating on the fly, if we could get proper english production for that stuff I'd be a lot happier with GOM's system, but as it stands I still think GOM presents a very strong tournament catering to high level play and has a very good format to keep the top players in Code S unless they are slumping hard enough to not deserve it, and let the top Code A players make their way in. That environment, especially with the matches being so spread out, allows for the players to have enough tie to actually prepare. I can handle bit of sloppy production for games played at the highest level. That's why I ecided to watch pro SC2, not to watch some relative nobody show up, own face, and then embarrass themselves next time.
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the only real problem I have with the GSL is the harsh demotion system. I'm not sure how they could fix it, but I don't think a player like MC/MarineKing/MVP should be sent to code A because they hit a little slump.
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On September 08 2011 08:08 spicyredcurry wrote:
SO you want a qualifier to insert new blood into code S?
I believe they have something like that called code A... and that has a qualifier aswell. Making Code A double elimination would be cool but that would not be feasible.
You are right in a way. with the current system, code a could be seen as a season-long qualifier to get into the next code S tournament...
I think the main possible area of improvement i see in all of this is, lets say some dude out there is extremely skilled after a few months of practice and has a few weeks of incredible genius in sc2 for some unknowable reason.
I this this is EXTREMELY hypothetical, but hear me out.
If this dude wanted to get into code S he would need to spend 1 entire season doing code A, then he would have to get far enough into code A in that season to get into up/down. Then he would have to win the up/down and he could be in code S.
So he would have to do the season-long code a which is like a qualifiers to get into the next code S
(( And winning the up/down seems kind of like a silly format given that its BO1's between top players... but thats another discussion. ))
I guess im trying to say, if this dude somehow has a flash of genius right now id wanna see that dude in the code S tournament right now, not next season. With a type of open seeding element added to the tournament, the same dude could theoretically win code S in a single season without having to wait.
however, i agree my scenario is very hypothetical... but i believe sc2 has a high level of volatility that increasing the "new blood" level of a code s tournament could give Code S even more of a highly competitive mystique because the code S players would have to be superior to eachother and be superior to any bright stars that are materializing at that very moment.
And lets say one of these bright stars does good in code A, gets into code S, then during that season loses and goes to up/down and goes back into code A. Such a person would be doing a entire codeA season to qualify for one codeS season, then after dropping out he has to do ANOTHER codeA SEASON AGAIN to qualify for 1 more code S season. And if such a bright star has a flash of genius yet again he no longer has the "chance" to win code s for that season because his only option now is to spend another season trying to qualify again.
Im not saying the dude doesnt deserve to drop out for losing his games, im just saying such a system is not too forgiving in the time-department for many pro players out there.
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EPT
