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On September 02 2011 08:27 Sixxor wrote:
As long as they aren't sacrificing game quality doing this I personally don't think it matters, it's their money if they wanna get rid of half of it that's fine just as long as the quality for the viewers isn't sacrificed any at all.
There is no 100% certain way to say if players gave it their all either.
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When I watch a tournament I want to see two people duking it out over the prize pool. I wanna see the looser be frustrated/angry/sad whatever then go home and train harder to avenge their loss. I do not want to see two people who are already content because they made a deal to split the winnings play each other in any round of any tournament. If I wanted to see friendly games I would go watch someones stream instead. I expect to see epic games when I watch a tournament and as the saying goes satisfactions is the death of desire and desire is what drives people to greatness.
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On September 02 2011 08:19 ToD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 08:13 KingVietKong wrote:
Would it have been alright for Nestea and Losira to split the difference and not give a shit in the last GSL Finals?
It's shitty behavior. It's not match fixing, because it doesn't necessarily mean the players will give shitty games since it doesn't matter. It's probably largely inconsequential. But as TT1 said, he threw a game with a carrier rush because he didn't care.
It's one of those things that can be justified and explained with a bit of reason and a lot of semantics, which is something I'm always wary of. having lived in Korea as long as i have and being quite familiar with how Korean progamers proceeded in Warcraft, i'm gonna guess that it's very likely they did split, then again its very player dependant, some players don't like the idea. About the carrier rush i agree that its not acceptable and retarded, but maybe TT1 was on tilt ? i dunno , we don't know the reasons of why he made such a strat, maybe he had been watching whitera's special taktiks on stream too much, regardless i dont think we should judge without knowing the facts.
Hmm, yea I guess it's the variance between players that's concerning. When I thought about it a bit more and considered the F1 comparison I could see more the reasoning behind it, there's just no way to know, and that will always frighten an audience that doesn't have access behind the curtain.
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I think this is fine. I know this was a common practice in large [casual] Magic: the Gathering tournaments, where both players in the last round would sometimes agree to split the winnings (in packs of cards) rather than going all-or-none.
What sets it apart from match-fixing IMO is that the only parties involved are the two players, and there is no external betting (of worth) on the match. Yes, the results may be different because the outcome of the match no longer matters, but it's not match fixing because the outcome is not really determined nor does it matter.
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I had no idea that anything like this has ever happened in a SC2 finals match!
This is outrageous and actually makes me very mad. It makes me completely sick to think 2 players in a finals would actually do something like this.
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United States4714 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:29 sixfour wrote:
you will change your mind when you get to such a stage and it is a life-altering amount of money. first thing i did when in my first (and only so far lol me) major tourney final was arrange with everyone to rework the prizepool and flatten it. everyone agreed this within about two minutes, and none of us had ever met before prior to that day. it was simple because we all knew it made sense, and the prizepool was already much flatter than every SC2 tourney i've ever seen. until you are in such a situation you can't make blanket statements like that.
I have been playing poker tournaments full time for the last 5 years. I have played for life altering money plenty of times without chopping.
There are tons of different careers and ways to make money. A big part of why I chose to play a game instead of something else is the competition. A lot of times the safe decision is to make a deal but for me it would take away a big part of why I even play.
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Netherlands256 Posts
It comes down to whether or not they still play to win. To be honest, I don't give a flying fuck about the prize pool, I want to see good games. Honestly, if people force this to be seen as matchmaking, I hope you never buy a friend a drink or give him some money or a gift. It's not much different.
People are allowed to do with their money whatever they want, and you can be bitter and sad about it all you like, but you are watching for the games - not for the prize pool. The prize pool is only incentive for the players to try, but I can imagine that playing against teammates or good friends is never fun.
So no, I don't think it's match fixing, assuming it doesn't affect the quality of the game. Regarding the comments made, it obviously did, and it should warrant a long term ban from both players involved as it's simply throwing the game. But no, I really do not care what they do with their winnings or if they agree to split it - as long as they also agree to bring their best and try to win.
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This is just a clear reminder that sc2 hasn't matured enough to be considered a real sport that can be analogous to real spectator sports. Instead I guess it still remains a legitimate way of making money for players who can compete. I think that's okay when you look at it in that perspective. I guess being elitist about "100% pure as much competitiveness as possible" is at the current moment an unfair (to the pros) ideal. I guess sacrifices need to made to keep the game alive.
Further, it will always become obvious who is really just "in it for the money" over other players and they should be judged on an individual basis based on personal opinion.
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How can you stop it?
They can say they haven't split the money then a couple days down the track they send x player an x amount of money. You can't tell players they can't send other players money now can you?
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I think an even pot split is wrong, like others have said because it ruins the competition for the spectators. The line is rather subjective but I would draw it at the 1st place split adjusted prize should be at least 1.5x the second place.
Alterternatively, the top players and teams should recognize and adress this issue, lest there be scandals and shitstorms (like TT1's one? I'm not much in the know about that) that occur later on. At the very least, I think the it is the players and teams responsibility to give a real finals.
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Don't think there is anything wrong with and I don't think the matches would be any worse either.
Imagine 2 players in the GSL final, you both get the same amount of cash but only one of you will get to kiss the trophy and all the recognition of being the champion. I don't think it would make anyone try less hard, in fact you might get better games due to less nerves from the players (:
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ofc they should be allowed to make a deal oO don't see a reason why not.
if i and a good friend of mine were a pro and we both would be in the finals of a tournament there wouldn't be any question, ofc we would make a deal. up until today I didn't think anyone feels different about this topic
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I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Lets say you both have a family and half of it is enough for both of you to do a nice vacation with your wife and kids - who could judge them for being nice to the other one and splitting it? There still is the reputation gained in winning so I doubt they will not be motivated (on the contrary if you think all about money when playing could even be detrimental).
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My philosophy on being competitive:
Even if you are up against a friend, you owe it to them, yourself, and the community to do your very best; without constraints.
I don't feel like it's as bad as what Savior was doing by any means, but I feel like it harms the spirit of competition.
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What people personally choose to do with the money they win from tournaments is absolutely their own personal decision, and should not be regulated, regardless of what fans think. The premise of a tournament is simple: W place gets X money, Y place gets Z money, and after a player wins it the money is completely out of the tournament's hands. It would be ridiculous for a tournament would try and police what people do with the winnings they give out.
Players can still play for prestige, victories, titles, and women for themselves and their clan.
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how can you tell people who can they can and can't give money to once it becomes theirs?
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If you actually want a debate about something don't make the most biased OP-post ever. Feels more like your trying to get the mob together for a lynching.
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United States4714 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:31 ReignFayth wrote:
I don't think the fact that poker players are buying in changes much at the end of the line, poker player can usually afford losing a buy in, but the difference between 1st and 2nd place is usually a lot more significant than the actual buy in obviously....
to me it's the same, you just wanna reduce variance because the money matters to you in the end, doesn't mean you stop being competitive
The difference is it isn't the players right to adjust the prize pool in something like sc2. The sponsors provide all the money and they set up the rules. Then they advertise the tournament for people to watch. Subverting what the sponsors/tournament organizers want and misleading the audience is wrong.
Even in televised poker tournaments there are often rules about not making deals at final tables because they don't want the competition to be messed up for TV. When you sign up to play in that tournament you should know what you are agreeing to and abide by the rules .
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If players truly felt there was nothing wrong with this, they would be out in the open about it. However, they aren't. They hide it.
I can't seem to find MLG (just an example) tournament rules, but I wouldn't be surprised if agreements to split prize pool can result in forfeiture of the prize money, if caught. Don't be so quick to think it can't ever be discovered, as you have corporate sponsors paying for an "honest" competition. If there are credible allegations of "deal making", such wire transfers could be investigated, and if substantiated, both players would very likely forfeit (pay back) all winnings, and also possibly owe more. You guys may think it's not a big deal, but tournament sponsors think otherwise.
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There isn't just trying and doing silly shit like 1 base carries. There's trying and then there's trying like money is on the line. In show matches pros still want to win, but show matches aren't where you see ingenious strategies designed to beat a specific player on a specific map and practiced to perfection. Players don't break down in tears after winning (or losing) show matches.
Even though it's basically impossible to enforce there should still be rules against this, if only to give players a reason to be discrete about it so that spectators can at least pretend that the games they're watching are meaningful.
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EPT
