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xXFireandIceXx
Canada4296 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:41 MrPello wrote: If you actually want a debate about something don't make the most biased OP-post ever. Feels more like your trying to get the mob together for a lynching. it's not that biased. the OP poster has the right to have an opinion of his own and the right to express it. | ||
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damngringo
United Kingdom34 Posts
So, imagine you are a finalist of an SC2 tourney. You are offered a 'deal' (which is soft match fixing btw) and also considering playing fair. Denote A - winner's prize, B - loser's one, A + B = P - total final prize pool. So, you are considering a lottery (yeah, economists call it so) and would play fair if: qA + (1-q)B > xP, where q is your probability to win (those who are interested may find a precise and robust measure) and x is a share of P you are promised (leave out taxes, probability your competitor will not give you his share, etc). qA + (1-q)B > xA + xB (q-x)A + (1-q-x)B > 0 Thus, what can we see here. 1. Practice more, increase your probability to win (q) to have more chances in the finals - a straightforward way to boost competition (have to examine risk aversity issues here tho) 2. Make the difference between A and B bigger. If B -> 0+, (q-x) A > 0 iff q>x (assuming A > 0, which is trivial ^^). Assuming that players agree to split prizes equally, ie x = 0.5, one will always play fair if it's not a coinflip, ie he considers his probability to win above 0.5. If he considers his q < 0.5, and this information is common, his opponent will play fair and play to win. All in all, increase the payouts for 1st places to 50-70% of the event prize pools, and fixing will be dealt with. Make them play! P.S. Recall last IEM payout structure: 1st - 6500, 2nd - 3300, 1st prize being around 30% of the pool. Don't want to point fingers, but you can come to Blizzard EU invitation, play 2 games with a hangover, get your 1000 and go chat with the fans the whole weekend. This is not the way competition works, it's + Show Spoiler + a fucking disgrace, like Didier Drogba used to say | ||
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jeparie
United States65 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:41 Mig wrote: When you sign up to play in that tournament you should know what you are agreeing to and abide by the rules . If there aren't any rules regarding deal making then there shouldn't be any issue. I don't think anyone is arguing that players should make deals when the tournament rules explicitly forbid it. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
P.S. I won so good choice by me! | ||
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tabbott26
United Kingdom379 Posts
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arsenic
United States163 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:44 damngringo wrote: Holy shit, I typed my post and was going to submit as the page refreshed itself. I would do it again tho. So, imagine you are a finalist of an SC2 tourney. You are offered a 'deal' (which is soft match fixing btw) and also considering playing fair. Denote A - winner's prize, B - loser's one, A + B = P - total final prize pool. So, you are considering a lottery (yeah, economists call it so) and would play fair if: qA + (1-q)B > xP, where q is your probability to win (those who are interested may find a precise and robust measure) and x is a share of P you are promised (leave out taxes, probability your competitor will not give you his share, etc). qA + (1-q)B > xA + xB (q-x)A + (1-q-x)B > 0 Thus, what can we see here. 1. Practice more, increase your probability to win (q) to have more chances in the finals - a straightforward way to boost competition (have to examine risk aversity issues here tho) 2. Make the difference between A and B bigger. If B -> 0+, (q-x) A > 0 iff q>x (assuming A > 0, which is trivial ^^). Assuming that players agree to split prizes equally, ie x = 0.5, one will always play fair if it's not a coinflip, ie he considers his probability to win above 0.5. If he considers his q < 0.5, and this information is common, his opponent will play fair and play to win. All in all, increase the payouts for 1st places to 50-70% of the event prize pools, and fixing will be dealt with. Make them play! Probability of winning is not the only consideration when playing against a teammate in the Finals. Otherwise, good analysis? | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:41 Mig wrote: The difference is it isn't the players right to adjust the prize pool in something like sc2. The sponsors provide all the money and they set up the rules. Then they advertise the tournament for people to watch. Subverting what the sponsors/tournament organizers want and misleading the audience is wrong. Even in televised poker tournaments there are often rules about not making deals at final tables because they don't want the competition to be messed up for TV. When you sign up to play in that tournament you should know what you are agreeing to and abide by the rules . there are no such rules mig though, they implemented it in a few poker tourneys on TV, but thus far in SC2 it's all up to the players and really how can you prevent that? nobody's really gonna notice anyway.... some people have families, I'm guessing you don't yet, but at some point you might start making deals, you won't want to jeopardize any kind of financial security just to please the fans (who wouldn't really be displeased if not told anyway) or to feel some kind of adrenaline during the match... | ||
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Magic_Mike
United States542 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:41 Mig wrote: The difference is it isn't the players right to adjust the prize pool in something like sc2. The sponsors provide all the money and they set up the rules. Then they advertise the tournament for people to watch. Subverting what the sponsors/tournament organizers want and misleading the audience is wrong. Even in televised poker tournaments there are often rules about not making deals at final tables because they don't want the competition to be messed up for TV. When you sign up to play in that tournament you should know what you are agreeing to and abide by the rules . Ok fine. So after one of us win and the money becomes ours instead of the sponsors, why don't we decide to split it a little more evenly. It's our money now. We can do whatever we want to with it. | ||
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Mioraka
Canada1353 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:36 piknic wrote: This is just a clear reminder that sc2 hasn't matured enough to be considered a real sport that can be analogous to real spectator sports. Instead I guess it still remains a legitimate way of making money for players who can compete. I think that's okay when you look at it in that perspective. I guess being elitist about "100% pure as much competitiveness as possible" is at the current moment an unfair (to the pros) ideal. I guess sacrifices need to made to keep the game alive. Further, it will always become obvious who is really just "in it for the money" over other players and they should be judged on an individual basis based on personal opinion. No one ever said sc2 is mature as a sport, in fact in a real sport league, the winning prize pool never mattered. They don't care about the prize because it not significant enough and they make a living off salaries, not prize winnings, if anything the prize is just a bonus for them. But in esports, the salaries are just not enough so players have to have tournament winnings to make a living. In my eye, relying on prize winnings is not a sustainable model at all. Yet there are just not enough money flowing into the industry so these kind of stuff will continue to happen regardless. | ||
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FlyingSheeps
Canada204 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:41 Mig wrote: The difference is it isn't the players right to adjust the prize pool in something like sc2. The sponsors provide all the money and they set up the rules. Then they advertise the tournament for people to watch. Subverting what the sponsors/tournament organizers want and misleading the audience is wrong. Even in televised poker tournaments there are often rules about not making deals at final tables because they don't want the competition to be messed up for TV. When you sign up to play in that tournament you should know what you are agreeing to and abide by the rules . There is no legal way to stop people for making those types of deals personal between themselves, seeing how once the prize money is given out they can give it or spend it on whatever they wish, you can though issues hush orders the transactions of money. You can prevent people for making deals at the tournament itself as it can be seen as a type of match fixing, If anything this doesn't not make it illegal it simply lesses the public knowledge of these type of personal agreement between players and friends. | ||
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infringement153
United States30 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:43 Kaitlin wrote: If players truly felt there was nothing wrong with this, they would be out in the open about it. However, they aren't. They hide it. I can't seem to find MLG (just an example) tournament rules, but I wouldn't be surprised if agreements to split prize pool can result in forfeiture of the prize money, if caught. Don't be so quick to think it can't ever be discovered, as you have corporate sponsors paying for an "honest" competition. If there are credible allegations of "deal making", such wire transfers could be investigated, and if substantiated, both players would very likely forfeit (pay back) all winnings, and also possibly owe more. You guys may think it's not a big deal, but tournament sponsors think otherwise. They don't necessarily hide it because they think it's wrong, they could just be hiding it because they think others will think that it's wrong and don't want to get trouble from them. Not that I'm saying that's necessarily the case, but it's certainly a possibility. If no one cared about this, do you think any of the pros would too? | ||
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IShowUMagic
United States104 Posts
Making deals is also a skill in itself just because you need to judge talent in order to make a deal that's good for yourself. Nobody in their right mind will make a 50/50 deal with someone of less talent than themselves. That brings us to another point: dealmaking should have absolutely no impact on the spectators or the skill level being displayed in the game. 50% of whatever you win is still a lot of money riding on sc2 matches. Also, you have to be the best player you can be to negotiate the best deal you can make. The top-heaviness of prize payouts are simply absurd for the number of pros competing and I think any pro who doesn't make some kind of deal to even out their variance is a fool. Oh yeah, and any rule against it is completely unenforceable, so there's that. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
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Tektos
Australia1321 Posts
If 1st place is $100,000 and second place is $20,000 of course both players aren't going to want to have a 50% chance of getting 1/6th of the available money. Whereas if the prize pools were $75,000 and $45,000 the lower difference between the amounts leads to less need for the players to make these prior agreements. Deal making shouldn't be allowed and should be looked down upon. | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
They both got to that final on their own strength without any shady things. Whether it's a good way to act like this or not is very questionable tho. on the Fenix/TT1 case: Promises were made, Fenix is wrong for not splitting. There's nothing that can be done about it tho. How much money are we talking about anyway? It doesn't sound like a big lan. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:49 Jakkerr wrote: Promising to split the money if u both get in the finals isn't illegal. They both got to that final on their own strength without any shady things. Whether it's a good way to act like this or not is very questionable tho. on the Fenix/TT1 case: Promises were made, Fenix is wrong for not splitting. There's nothing that can be done about it tho. How much money are we talking about anyway? It doesn't sound like a big lan. 1st was 10k, 2nd was 5k. Fenix withheld 2.5k if the split was 50/50. Which brings up another point. Don't split 50/50. 55/45 is the smartest way to split, especially if the two at the top are of a similar skill level. | ||
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damngringo
United Kingdom34 Posts
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Quesa
United States304 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
It isn't prize pool sharing (or, random guy a giving random guy b money) it is match throwing that bothers me. Just make sure both players are playing to win and are using competitive strategies. I also don't think you guys should hate on TT1, for all you know he wanted to catch his opponent of guard with his 1base Carriers. | ||
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MuteZephyr
Lithuania448 Posts
As long as there is no match fixing going on, I don't think it hurts anybody. It's just splitting your good fortune with a teammate/friend. Nobody would flip out if the winner split the reward afterwards if it wasn't agreed on before. The only thing the agreement does is make the players more comfortable, resulting in fewer stress-choke scenarios, and reduces inter-team tension. As long as I don't know about it, it actually seems like a good thing. | ||
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