EPTShould "Deal Making" be illegal? - Page 11
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itsben
435 Posts
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Techno
1900 Posts
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legaton
France1763 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:49 Jakkerr wrote: Promising to split the money if u both get in the finals isn't illegal. They both got to that final on their own strength without any shady things. Whether it's a good way to act like this or not is very questionable tho. on the Fenix/TT1 case: Promises were made, Fenix is wrong for not splitting. There's nothing that can be done about it tho. How much money are we talking about anyway? It doesn't sound like a big lan. 10000 dollars for the first place, 5000 for the second. It was big money. | ||
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Shinobi1982
1605 Posts
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Tektos
Australia1321 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:52 damngringo wrote: Tektos, look at my post above. If the finals is not a coinflip, and one player is definitely stronger even marginally, larger 1st prize payout would be an incentive in itself to reject the deal. I disregarded your entire post because it does not take into account if the players are team mates or friends. If you're 100x better than your team mate and you know for a 100% certainty that you're going to win, if the prize difference is larger it would result in a higher likelihood of sharing the winnings with them out of compassion for your team mate. If both players hate each other, your argument works. | ||
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damngringo
United Kingdom34 Posts
Btw, tournament regulations define match fixing? Is there any governing body? | ||
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tabbott26
United Kingdom379 Posts
I just say this because quite a lot of fans like watching top level players do things like 1base carrier. If they still made the finals a good viewing experience, then I don't see what the problem is here... If you really want to expand this, remember the fact that Boxer let MMA beat him at MLG Anaheim, so as to advance to the finals and pick up a Code S spot (was mentioned in a video interview somewhere). Isn't this the same issue, and why do we see fit not to vilify Boxer, when we choose to vilify TT1?? | ||
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FlyingSheeps
Canada204 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:53 itsben wrote: Sine nobody answered me the first time, is it possible for someone to sue the other for with holding the money after the deal to prevent stuff like this from happening? They had a verbal contract after all. depends, If there was any witness to the verbal contract or not, if its simply my word vs your word the case will be thrown out, verbal contract have been honored by courts before though its a hard case to prove and more then likely would spend more in legal fee's then any reward for winning. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:31 TumbaStarcraft wrote: I couldn't agree more Jeparie! The people that don't play for a living will have a hard time understanding. They may feel it's selfish of the players, but it's actually selfish of the fans. This is business, their livelihood. As I said before walk a mile. Because of such poor conditions it justifies it! We should all just forgive Savior now I guess! Fame and bragging rights weren't a big enough incentive for him apparently. You can't say that for every pro. This wouldn't fly in any real sport. I don't care if you take your winnings and spread it out to your teammates like Clide or SangHo. Making a deal before hand sours the competition no matter how much you say "I gave it my all, honest!" But again it's hard to prove unless the players just admits it (TT1) since he obviously wants to take Fenix down for his backstabbing. And there are a lot of grey areas too. | ||
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HoldenR
Netherlands256 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:49 Jakkerr wrote: Promising to split the money if u both get in the finals isn't illegal. They both got to that final on their own strength without any shady things. Whether it's a good way to act like this or not is very questionable tho. on the Fenix/TT1 case: Promises were made, Fenix is wrong for not splitting. There's nothing that can be done about it tho. How much money are we talking about anyway? It doesn't sound like a big lan. Fenix is wrong for not Splitting? So you think TT1 completely throwing the fucking game and going 1 base carrier/mothership isn't the exact same as match fixing? That is the literal definition of throwing a game, really: performing so far below your skill level that you are guaranteed to lose in order to make money on a previously agreed arrangement. I don't care if people make these arrangements but if it affects performance, whether it's agreed upon or not, they need to be banned from tournaments for a very, very long time, just like those involved in the matchmaking scandal in BW were. It IS matchmaking when it decides the outcome. The money should be withheld from the both of them. | ||
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Fiddel
Netherlands20 Posts
Would you have a problem if tournaments from now on would have 2 winners (those that win the semis), same prize money for both of them, same medal or cup for both of them, same honor? Just play the 'finals' as a friendly match? Why would you even watch? | ||
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tabbott26
United Kingdom379 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:53 itsben wrote: Sine nobody answered me the first time, is it possible for someone to sue the other for with holding the money after the deal to prevent stuff like this from happening? They had a verbal contract after all. I doubt it, verbal contracts aren't exactly the most secure if no-one else is a witness (which it seems not here)! :p | ||
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damngringo
United Kingdom34 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:53 itsben wrote: Sine nobody answered me the first time, is it possible for someone to sue the other for with holding the money after the deal to prevent stuff like this from happening? They had a verbal contract after all. Prove it. That's why verbal contracts are basically worthless, unless you can prove the conversation happened and took place, you can't win in a court of law. | ||
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dicedicerevolution
United States245 Posts
If a player wishes to give some of the money after playing to win, then that's entirely different. I see that as no different from treating your friends to dinner or donating the charity. However, corrupting the process of competition is a selfish act and jeopardizes the entire concept of eSports. This sort of behavior has no place in our community if we actually want bigger sponsors and make this thing more than just a niche hobby with money thrown at it. | ||
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-KarakStarcraft-
United States258 Posts
No one can make a legitimate argument that chopping someone removes integrity from the game. That's silly. There has been deal-making in poker forever. I have made deals for significant amounts of money, and many deals often leave a token amount (5-10k at the tourny with 6 figure payouts, for example) in the middle to play for. I have one person who made a deal in a live WSOP event with a 700k first payout and a 500k second payout, and no one doubted for an instant the winner would give the loser his part of the chop. They also left I think 50 or 75k in the middle to play for HU. But once they chopped the $$, the bracelet became the real prize. To answer someone else's question re: contracts and deal making, yes you could possibly sue. A similar situation would be Jamie Gold after his WSOP ME win. Google "Jamie Gold lawsuit" to read more about that. If SC2 fans really have such a huge problem with it (and I think people's reaction to it is just out of ignorance to how the system works than anything else), then they should demand flatter pay structures. Until then, you can't criticize anyone for taking a chop... especially in competition like SC2 where tournaments with big prize payoffs don't come around so often. These guys have to pay the bills too. The reason SC2 tournaments keep steep payout structures is seeing a big first prize $$ amount gets people to watch and is good in PR/advertising. Also, when the biggest regular NA tournament (MLG) pays only 5k for first... you know these guys aren't making that much money. | ||
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Blacktion
United Kingdom1148 Posts
Not only is it acceptable, but there are specific processes on all the major sites to make sure it can be done without people getting screwed. I dont think it should be allowed in situations where its "team X needs to throw a game against team Y to allow team Z to proceed the the next round instead of a different team" Thats not cool. But when its 2 teams against each other and their actions dont affect a different team, why shouldnt they be able to split prize money how they want? As a total it belongs to them anyway. | ||
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Kieofire
United States1809 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:49 Jakkerr wrote: Promising to split the money if u both get in the finals isn't illegal. They both got to that final on their own strength without any shady things. Whether it's a good way to act like this or not is very questionable tho. on the Fenix/TT1 case: Promises were made, Fenix is wrong for not splitting. There's nothing that can be done about it tho. How much money are we talking about anyway? It doesn't sound like a big lan. So? It is still Fenix's choice if he wanted to split the money, if you think 100% that somebody is going to split with you and you get back stabbed it is your own fault for not making 1st place. | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:57 HoldenR wrote: Fenix is wrong for not Splitting? So you think TT1 completely throwing the fucking game and going 1 base carrier/mothership isn't the exact same as match fixing? That is the literal definition of throwing a game, really: performing so far below your skill level that you are guaranteed to lose in order to make money on a previously agreed arrangement. I don't care if people make these arrangements but if it affects performance, whether it's agreed upon or not, they need to be banned from tournaments for a very, very long time, just like those involved in the matchmaking scandal in BW were. It IS matchmaking when it decides the outcome. The money should be withheld from the both of them. Off course both guys are wrong here, you might have misunderstood me. They are both to be blamed for this and shouldn't have done it. But if you make such arrangements you have to split the money. I do agree that they shouldn't have paid out the money at all but the tournament organizers probably didn't know about this. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On September 02 2011 08:56 tabbott26 wrote: I'd just like to say, did anyone watch those finals (link would be nice if so) and without the knowledge of what happened, was it detrimental to the fans. I just say this because quite a lot of fans like watching top level players do things like 1base carrier. If they still made the finals a good viewing experience, then I don't see what the problem is here... If you really want to expand this, remember the fact that Boxer let MMA beat him at MLG Anaheim, so as to advance to the finals and pick up a Code S spot (was mentioned in a video interview somewhere). Isn't this the same issue, and why do we see fit not to vilify Boxer, when we choose to vilify TT1?? That was a rumor. Just before their match Boxer went into his booth and insisted to MMA to give it his best and not throw the match as rumored. | ||
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