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On August 27 2011 00:51 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 00:31 Kambing wrote:On August 27 2011 00:29 sh4w wrote:
Hmmm this is kind of stupid.
I think that after this patch I will go back to using a third party APM meter like broodwar.
No, it will not change the way you play, I think most people just spam and cycle in sc2 to look cool, especially the ones who keep all of their buildings on 1 hot key and army on another.
These kinds of people are the only ones this patch is really hurting, but accurate APM is good information to have regardless. I edited the OP with this information. External programs (e.g., sc2gears) will very likely reflect the changes to APM measurement listed in the patch notes because they mine information provided by starcraft 2. There does not exist a starcraft 2 APM tool that would not be affected by this change. I think it's only the programs that can apparently read APM realtime from the registry somewhere (developer of SC2Gears talked about that, also used in those Razer headphones). However, I think the replay file still includes all actions (including spam), so I am not sure if you are right when you say external programs will be affected necessarily if they simply count the actions in the replay file and divide it by the time (which I would imagine is what they do now, how else to do it). Only way to be affected is if the replay file will no longer include the 'spam'-actions, which I doubt.
Yea you're right. I believe replays have a pre-calculated average APM statistic which is mined by replay sites. But the entire stream of actions should be in the replay, so it is possible for someone to create a program to calculate APM taking into accounts actions that would be thrown out when the game calculates the average APM statistic. Amending my edit to reflect that.
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On August 27 2011 00:52 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote:
If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters? Rhythm is rhythm, people will still do cycle through keys. However, it should no longer be called APM, since it isn't actually the same statistic anymore (not that it really was before since it wasn't counted with correct time). It's like an effective actions per minute EAPM now.
EAPM, that's a fair point. Would be cool if both were in then if people want A(ctual)APM and EAPM. Personally I've always figured APM should reflect EAPM.
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most people don't care, that is why the changes have been drowned out by the new balance changes.
I think the only important change to apm measurements that Blizzard could make would be to measure apm in real time, rather than in the accelerated SC2 time, so that casters don't have to distinguish between real/BW apm and SC2 apm.
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I would love to see 2 types of APM (effective and total).
That way everyone would be happy, and we could have a look at both stats, as interesting as they are.
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Don't care that much tbh =)
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Meh, never cared about APM, as long as you are winning, i don't care if you have 300 APM or 80 APM.
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Maybe blizzard should implement things that we all want like LAN and replay viewing instead of editing things already in the game that don't actually effect anything
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On August 27 2011 00:50 Masayume wrote:
This is a bad change that can cloud a lot of information for a player. This is especially true for up and coming players that try to work on action efficiency and a good tapping routine, APM actually helps you analyze your progress and gives you an easier time to filter out inefficiency.
If anything APM also lets you see how top players divide their actions, in combination with first person view and/or follow player camera, even if it includes a bit of spam (which is totally necessary to be efficient on production unless you have a clock inside your head)
And why fix something that ain't broke?
I sure hope this does not make it to the live servers.
Can you please explain how an APM count that consists mainly of spam helps one to determine efficiency? It seems to me that a count that includes only valid APM would be more helpful, because you can actually observe your increase in actions that make a difference. With the current system, all you're seeing is how fast your tapping is increasing (if you're someone who tries to tap throughout the game).
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People,
Remember when Blizzard got rid of loss off the record for low league players?
They are doing the same thing with the APM. They are trying to generalize a lot of SC2 elements that would make low league players more motivated to play the game.
Think about it:
From Blizzard perspective , there are more lower league players than master/GM players. and they get more $$ from lower league players- So they are trying to hide any skill presentation that would intimidate low level players from playing SC2.
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On August 26 2011 22:26 muzzy wrote:
There will be some initial "shock" as players see their lower APM, but it will be good long term, as it's a more realistic measure.
The reason for tapping is to keep yourself in that fast paced mindset, fingers always moving. You'll still want to do that and it will still help you maintain a higher APM. It just won't artificially increase APM.
That's the stupid part though. Now essentially someone like Huk or Bomber who "taps" to keep producing units will have the same APM as some gold league noob who doesn't tap because he doesn't know how.
This is such a stupid change. Why they worry about "fixing" the APM counter instead of /actually/ fixing their game is beyond me.
On August 27 2011 01:01 fritos wrote:
People,
Remember when Blizzard got rid of loss off the record for low league players?
They are doing the same thing with the APM. They are trying to generalize a lot of SC2 elements that would make low league players more motivated to play the game.
Think about it:
From Blizzard perspective , there are more lower league players than master/GM players. and they get more $$ from lower league players- So they are trying to hide any skill presentation that would intimidate low level players from playing SC2.
This just doesn't make any sense. The win-loss record removal was to help people overcome the "ladder fear" that affects a lot of people in the lower leagues. APM has nothing to do with that. You don't see Little Jimmy not hitting "find match" because his APM isn't as high as IdrA's.
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wait, so everyones going to have basically the same apm until midgame? kinda lame but yeah idrc.
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I just don't understand why they couldn't show the real APM and some EAPM counter. And count seconds as real seconds so we get the real APM.
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Canada11350 Posts
I'm thinking it's probably time for bw chart replay analyzer seems as Blizzard is more interested in dropping spam clicks and less interested in making actions per minute an actual minute. Realistically, changes to the apm formula doesn't effect too much and apm was sometimes valued too much. But it still seems silly to make it mean apm mean something other than actions per minute.
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On August 27 2011 01:03 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:01 fritos wrote:
People,
Remember when Blizzard got rid of loss off the record for low league players?
They are doing the same thing with the APM. They are trying to generalize a lot of SC2 elements that would make low league players more motivated to play the game.
Think about it:
From Blizzard perspective , there are more lower league players than master/GM players. and they get more $$ from lower league players- So they are trying to hide any skill presentation that would intimidate low level players from playing SC2. This just doesn't make any sense. The win-loss record removal was to help people overcome the "ladder fear" that affects a lot of people in the lower leagues. APM has nothing to do with that. You don't see Little Jimmy not hitting "find match" because his APM isn't as high as IdrA's.
You just said that it was to " help people overcome the ladder fear". This APM change is the similar concept, with the new APM system, no one is going to have super high APM, so it generalize one aspect of skill presentation in SC2.
Who do you think is going to feel better about it when no one has super high APM? Answer is: Low league players.
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I honestly don't care about what the apm counter shows, but I don't understand the point in "nerfing" APM. What thought process did the people at blizzard go through, to think that alot of APM was a bad idea?
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On August 26 2011 22:24 Kambing wrote:
Before the patch:
245245245 = 9 actions (1 for each selection made)
2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued)
52m52m52m = 9 actions (1 for each selection and each move issued)
After the patch:
245245245 = 1 action (1 for the initial selection made, the rest ignored)
2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued)
52m52m52m = 6 actions (1 for the initial "5" selection, 1 for each move issued)
[/i]
Are you sure that this is true?
I understand it that way:
121212 = 6 actions
post-patch -> 6 actions
111111 = 6 actions
post-patch -> 1 action
So that "repeated" refers to the same group.
Otherwise everyones APM would be like 40 or sth.
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I think my biggest issue with this change is why bother even waste time on this when stuff like group replay watching should be a top priority.
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APM lost its meaning with this patch. Just to express it a bit dramatically but I think it's quite true.. How can you ignore tapping? How you can you ignore APM spam in the beginning, which can characterize players quite well. It's just so random now.
How is queen macro (55vClick 66vClick 77vClick) not 4 actions each? You make 4 hits on buttons total, don't you?
Please don't mess this up Blizzard, if you want to change APM then show the normal speed apm in the APM tab in game so we have the Actions per ACTUAL Minute. I sincerely hope that this is just a test and won't carry over from the PTR. T__T
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On August 27 2011 01:18 o)_Saurus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 22:24 Kambing wrote:
Before the patch:
245245245 = 9 actions (1 for each selection made)
2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued)
52m52m52m = 9 actions (1 for each selection and each move issued)
After the patch:
245245245 = 1 action (1 for the initial selection made, the rest ignored)
2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued)
52m52m52m = 6 actions (1 for the initial "5" selection, 1 for each move issued)
Are you sure that this is true? I understand it that way: 121212 = 6 actions post-patch -> 6 actions 111111 = 6 actions post-patch -> 1 action So that "repeated" refers to the same group. Otherwise everyones APM would be like 40 or sth. [/i]
Nah. I'm pretty sure that's how things work on the ptr. My above examples are from my own testing from yesterday.
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this change is bullshit, less actions counted = worse, how ill be able to count my hand speed objectively ? I dont understand this change at all. If i move my hand/finger why wouldn't it count, and other movement would count?. Its troublesome for me, because i like to prepare myself before matches vs computer and gain steady average apm, very much of it are groups selecting.
There are progamers who account to APM meter, for example Bisu. Its always your part of training conciously or not.
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EPT
