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I've played ppl who have 200-300 apm in the early game. Once actual things need to be done they drop below 80 and I still rofl stomp them with my measly 40. Watching the replay they cannot even spend their money, build supply depos on time or arrange their army ;-)
Also in regards to tapping. It's just a crutch for people lacking skill. No secret how long buildtimes are. I see your glasses fogging up and your ears getting red. Plz went your emotions =O
That being said, stop messing with irrelevant small things. Give me back my losses dammit!!! How am I supposed to know my win ratio, without using paper and pen. Am I really gonna have to make masters just to know if my win% is going up or down?!?!?!?
Ps. TY blizzard 50/50 for overseers, was previously the most overpriced unit in the game. Remeber when you got detection for free?
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On August 27 2011 00:30 Zeke50100 wrote:
ITT: People thinking everything has only one definition.
1 Minute is 60 seconds, regardless of how long those seconds are. It's not a "game minute"; it's a minute. Blame the fact that most games are played on the "Faster" speed and stop thinking Blizzard created their own time system.
Also, perhaps Actions per Minute means Actions per Minute, where Action would be every unique action? Tapping 5, then tapping it again half a second later without doing anything in between is not a unique action. APM counts how many unique actions have occurred (excluding repetitive move commands and such, because those are technically unique due to the changed unit positioning). It makes sense to me. It's an ambiguous term, and no amount of "But BW did it this way!" will change that >.>
So you just redefined your own term for action and then stated it's ambiguous because of this. That isn't really how you argue points. You are defining an Action as a unique Action which in itself is a circular reference so it doesn't really make any sense. Also noone said Blizzard created their own metric by which to define time, it's merely a factor of the current standard definition. People want it not to be a factor of that definition.
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They should base apm and all ingame timings on real time rather than on a game speed no one plays. As for the change, its whatever.
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APM is actions per minute. It's a real concept. A starcraft second is merely a multiple of a "real" second and thus is still defined in terms of a second. It's just different by a factor, there is no core difference so it's measuring the exact same thing. Since we define it in terms of a second it makes sense to use APM in terms of the action second/minute instead of the arbitrarily defined "starcraft second" because we can have an actual grasp over that number.
My point is they already have SC2 seconds. Blizzard isn't going to use a different set of measurement units from what they have or they would logically have to change everything.
It's like doing the high jump, and the bar is set using metres. But to score the game you use inches to see who jumped the highest.
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i dont really care but i dont think blizz should either = /
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Ok so just tested the Apm change on the PTR. Played a 2 minute games just to see the difference.
Average apm before PTR in the first 2 minutes: 350
Average apm after PTR in the first 2 minutes: 30
I will still spam, to warm up, because it helps me play faster mid to late game.
ROFL
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On August 27 2011 00:35 Atlas247 wrote:Show nested quote +APM is actions per minute. It's a real concept. A starcraft second is merely a multiple of a "real" second and thus is still defined in terms of a second. It's just different by a factor, there is no core difference so it's measuring the exact same thing. Since we define it in terms of a second it makes sense to use APM in terms of the action second/minute instead of the arbitrarily defined "starcraft second" because we can have an actual grasp over that number. My point is they already have SC2 seconds. Blizzard isn't going to use a different set of measurement units from what they have or they would logically have to change everything. It's like doing the high jump, and the bar is set using metres. But to score the game you use inches to see who jumped the highest.
The only change would be instead of faster CHANGING the scale to 1.38, faster would be the zero point and thus the speed ladder is at would be the same as how everything is defined. The effect of this is obvious when you look at the patch notes. There's a 5 second change to rax which intuitively feels long yet it's in their different scale thus isn't as long as you would intuitively feel. Why should the game go against what you feel intuitively. 5 seconds should be 5 seconds and not 5/1.38(I believe)
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apm is a neat stat.
but I don't care at all I'm still going to warm up the same way i do every game and check my apm as infrequently.
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If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
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Why can't they make APM based on real seconds instead of game seconds? That's the change I care about.
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actually, could it be that it will only to change the apm only when u do something like this, 5 5 5 5 5, or just hold 5?
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On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote:
If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
Why must people always try use APM as a contest and say how it doesn't determine skill. Ofcourse it's neither of these things. It's just a stat, it's just actions per minute. If a guy just wants to know how many actions per minute he can sustain what's the harm in that? Why must people always try use it for something else and make justifications based on these things.
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This is a bad change that can cloud a lot of information for a player. This is especially true for up and coming players that try to work on action efficiency and a good tapping routine, APM actually helps you analyze your progress and gives you an easier time to filter out inefficiency.
If anything APM also lets you see how top players divide their actions, in combination with first person view and/or follow player camera, even if it includes a bit of spam (which is totally necessary to be efficient on production unless you have a clock inside your head)
And why fix something that ain't broke?
I sure hope this does not make it to the live servers.
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On August 27 2011 00:48 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote:
If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters? Why must people always try use APM as a contest and say how it doesn't determine skill. Ofcourse it's neither of these things. It's just a stat, it's just actions per minute. If a guy just wants to know how many actions per minute he can sustain what's the harm in that? Why must people always try use it for something else and make justifications based on these things.
I would assume (without any evidence admittedly) that most people would think APM should measure actual actions per minute though? Trying to find a counter arguement leads to, they want to see the number higher with spam, whether correct or not.
Edit: My point is, this change just makes this unit of measurement more accurate but in no way changes how people can play, it just provides a more accurate number I think.
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On August 27 2011 00:31 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 00:29 sh4w wrote:
Hmmm this is kind of stupid.
I think that after this patch I will go back to using a third party APM meter like broodwar.
No, it will not change the way you play, I think most people just spam and cycle in sc2 to look cool, especially the ones who keep all of their buildings on 1 hot key and army on another.
These kinds of people are the only ones this patch is really hurting, but accurate APM is good information to have regardless. I edited the OP with this information. External programs (e.g., sc2gears) will very likely reflect the changes to APM measurement listed in the patch notes because they mine information provided by starcraft 2. There does not exist a starcraft 2 APM tool that would not be affected by this change.
I think it's only the programs that can apparently read APM realtime from the registry somewhere (developer of SC2Gears talked about that, also used in those Razer headphones).
However, I think the replay file still includes all actions (including spam), so I am not sure if you are right when you say external programs will be affected necessarily if they simply count the actions in the replay file and divide it by the time (which I would imagine is what they do now, how else to do it). Only way to be affected is if the replay file will no longer include the 'spam'-actions, which I doubt.
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On August 27 2011 00:48 kYem wrote:
actually, could it be that it will only to change the apm only when u do something like this, 5 5 5 5 5, or just hold 5?
No, the game doesn't differentiate between the two in this context as I tested on the PTR.
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On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote:
If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
I don't think people care about whether their spam is being recorded or not. I for one hotkey my cc to 4 and 5 early game but spam 245 anyway.
I think the complaints are about butchering the meaning of the term, which will result in more confusion as well as not adhering to the english language. If I want to know my actions per minute, I should be able to look at the apm tab. Now, all I will see is some random numbers that won't tell me much.
It would be similar to the world suddenly decided that percentages were out of 120 and that all existing percentages had to be square rooted before you add on that 20. It just complicates things for no reason and will encourage people to use third party programs to determine their apm, because, as much as people like to make fun of it, it does tell you whether you are fast or not. Yes, its starcraft 2 so it matters less, but Blizzard's idea that this will make the spamming disappear is totally flawed.
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On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote:
If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
Rhythm is rhythm, people will still do cycle through keys.
However, it should no longer be called APM, since it isn't actually the same statistic anymore (not that it really was before since it wasn't counted with correct time). It's like an effective actions per minute EAPM now.
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On August 27 2011 00:35 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 00:30 Zeke50100 wrote:
ITT: People thinking everything has only one definition.
1 Minute is 60 seconds, regardless of how long those seconds are. It's not a "game minute"; it's a minute. Blame the fact that most games are played on the "Faster" speed and stop thinking Blizzard created their own time system.
Also, perhaps Actions per Minute means Actions per Minute, where Action would be every unique action? Tapping 5, then tapping it again half a second later without doing anything in between is not a unique action. APM counts how many unique actions have occurred (excluding repetitive move commands and such, because those are technically unique due to the changed unit positioning). It makes sense to me. It's an ambiguous term, and no amount of "But BW did it this way!" will change that >.> So you just redefined your own term for action and then stated it's ambiguous because of this. That isn't really how you argue points. You are defining an Action as a unique Action which in itself is a circular reference so it doesn't really make any sense. Also noone said Blizzard created their own metric by which to define time, it's merely a factor of the current standard definition. People want it not to be a factor of that definition.
"How many fruits have you eaten"
Choose one of the following:
"I've eaten apple, orange, and banana"
OR
"I've eaten 7 apples, 3 oranges, and 16 bananas, so 26 fruits in total"
That's what I'm saying. As for the time issue, instead of saying Blizzard should change APM and multiply it by 1.38, they should instead make Faster the default option. It's a much neater change, because it doesn't involve applying the calculations to standardize the value for every game speed.
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On August 26 2011 22:43 JustPassingBy wrote:
When the observers check the APM, they want to see how fast a player can execute commandos,
if the players start executing commandos it wont just be the observers that want to see how fast they can do it
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EPT
