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On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview.
I believe Coach Choi was more concerned about the 'hidden' charge. Clearly the Koreans did not expect to be paying for the shuttle service or they wouldn't be making a big deal out of the $80 bill. Which also sounds like NASL didn't even remember to take that out of their travel stipend and instead tacked it on after the fact.
Also, Coach Choi seems concerned that the Koreans teams had to negotiate for transportation in the first place. Which seems like something most events would have ready in the first place.
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5003 Posts
On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview.
Even if the $80 dollars was from the travel stipend, when you have NASL staff come pick up the players and then the staff just tells the players to pay up.... that's just completely opposite of what Koreans expect that it's hilarious. You don't pick up someone at the airport (and pretend that they are your guest) and tell the guest to pay for the shuttle ride...
The impression I got was that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not one "big" thing that did NASL in, it's the little things that piled up that became that major road block. Essentially, little things like that signals quite a bit about NASL's quality.
That's all I'll say on the matter. Not trying to start a fight, as I thought I'm just sharing something that does give a little bit more insight into what Coach Choi was talking about.
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On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B?
Let me break it down for you, since you need it.
They did provide transport and also a bill for it, which they promptly handed over to the koreans. In their shoes I'd be sooooo pissed.
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On August 17 2011 13:46 TDN3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day Please don't come Milkis. A known forumer's opinion might cause chaos. Let it end there. It's not good for your future image in this forum.
Not good for his future image? He's a respected figure posting an opinion, and I for one would wholly support him if he can provide more insight from the Korean point of view since we have a good amount of people providing insight from NASL/foreigner's point of view right now.
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On August 17 2011 13:46 oxxo wrote:
'...including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling'
Some of you seriously have problems with that? That's hardly pampering the players. That is beyond basic for this type of thing. If NASL seriously didn't take care of that stuff in the first place it just shows how amateur they are. As a few others have already pointed out... GOM DOES do this stuff for foreigners. You guys really think in any professional business that they would expect foreigners that come to take care of everything themselves? No. The host takes care of it for them.
Either way... thanks for the article OP!
Okay, so MLG and basically every other none gsl tournament is amateur? Because they don't pay for all your travel and hotel...
The only reason GOM can house some foreigners is because 1) they are the biggest 2) housing people in the GOM house that they already have and would be paying rent on regardless of if someone new comes in our not, is alot cheaper than paying for 16 peoples hotel rooms.
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On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B?
Gosh, wish I can read Korean.
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On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone. 1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is. 2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them. 3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview. 4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is. 5) Name them. 1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward. 2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge. 3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public). A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them. 4) Above 5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures.
1) Not really
2) They really did. Even in their OP, they said they were contacted by Mr. Chae.
3) He isn't saying NASL shouldn't have gone public at all. Also, why would he contact NASL when he has no intention of participating in it in current form.
5) It doesn't say players weren't shuttled, didn't have hotels booked.
"Cared for" is very much subjective so not much point in discussing them, other than it actually says "NASL should take better care of the players."
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Yes, I agree that the NASL could've done things better - e.g. organise better transport, etc. The format and playing conditions were also something that the koreans didn't like. However, ALL the conditions were known up-front and AGREED to by the koreans in a SIGNED contract. The NASL did not do anything less than what they agreed to. Yes, they could do more but they did not do LESS than what was AGREED to.
Lets not forget the real losers:
- The people who wanted to qualify for S2 but lost to the koreans in the qualifiers. Why has no one even mentioned them?
- The fans who bought a S2 ticket because of the expectations that the koreans will be there.
The koreans have bought out legitimate concerns. They also brought out a lot of small stuff which I'm sure the NASL can improve on. In fact, the NASL even improved on their scheduling. And I'm sure they will improve on transportation and organisation.
What the stumbling block of the deal appears to be money - the koreans wanted more (the NASL even agreed to increase the travel stipend + minimum prize money). It all boils down to the koreans banding together to demand more money. Since they didn't get that, they all pulled out.
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Realized that the koreans really only have such major widespread issues with NASL, and not with any of the numerous other big and small international tournaments that they have attended or going to attend. That says loads on its own.
NASL needs better PR and efficiency, constant reminders that they're a new start-up is getting really stale.
While MLG is not new, they did an excellent job both PR and ground wise after their debacles, and cleaned up their act, people are even more enthusiastic about each upcoming MLGs now.
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On August 17 2011 13:50 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview. Even if the $80 dollars was from the travel stipend, when you have NASL staff come pick up the players and then the staff just tells the players to pay up.... that's just completely opposite of what Koreans expect that it's hilarious. You don't pick up someone at the airport (and pretend that they are your guest) and tell the guest to pay for the shuttle ride... The impression I got was that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not one "big" thing that did NASL in, it's the little things that piled up that became that major road block. Essentially, little things like that signals quite a bit about NASL's quality. That's all I'll say on the matter. Not trying to start a fight, as I thought I'm just sharing something that does give a little bit more insight into what Coach Choi was talking about.
Now i understand why the koreans players are so mad at nasl after all shuttle was provided than when the destination end they were demanded $80 for something that should be provided for and promised ? . That is some promise from nasl.
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On August 17 2011 13:53 Azzur wrote:
What the stumbling block of the deal appears to be money - the koreans wanted more (the NASL even agreed to increase the travel stipend + minimum prize money). It all boils down to the koreans banding together to demand more money. Since they didn't get that, they all pulled out.
Organising transport then expecting the guests to foot the bill upfront on arrival is less about the money and more about a lack of organisation and respect.
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Yeah they're acting like spoiled brats. I no longer have any respect for them from a business perspective.
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how is the contract signed 2 weeks before the start of season 2?
what about the qualifiers in june? were there no contracts then? they could play the qualifier matches, and then ditch nasl?
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On August 17 2011 13:56 Phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:53 Azzur wrote:
What the stumbling block of the deal appears to be money - the koreans wanted more (the NASL even agreed to increase the travel stipend + minimum prize money). It all boils down to the koreans banding together to demand more money. Since they didn't get that, they all pulled out. Organising transport then expecting the guests to foot the bill upfront on arrival is less about the money and more about a lack of organisation and respect.
I agree that the NASL made a mistake on this one.
Regardless, if the NASL has offered more money (e.g. pay for airfare + hotel), the koreans would've accepted the deal. This shows that it was indeed about money. If it was about respect, the koreans would've just pulled out instantly without going to the negotiating table.
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I think MvP's comments here are pretty mature and uncontroversial. I kinda agree with them though, a lot of the NASL production was a bit shoddy, esp compared to the IGN proleague..
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On August 17 2011 13:50 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview. Even if the $80 dollars was from the travel stipend, when you have NASL staff come pick up the players and then the staff just tells the players to pay up.... that's just completely opposite of what Koreans expect that it's hilarious. You don't pick up someone at the airport (and pretend that they are your guest) and tell the guest to pay for the shuttle ride... The impression I got was that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not one "big" thing that did NASL in, it's the little things that piled up that became that major road block. Essentially, little things like that signals quite a bit about NASL's quality. That's all I'll say on the matter. Not trying to start a fight, as I thought I'm just sharing something that does give a little bit more insight into what Coach Choi was talking about.
If someone gives me a travel stipend, and arranges a shuttle to pick me up, I would be shocked to be asked to pay for the shuttle. I would be even more disturbed if when confronted about it, they said, well, you didn't really have to pay for it, it came from your travel stipend. That's insane.
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Ah I understand better, thanks Milkis.
In which case, if MVP or any other Korean team manager is reading this, I would really urge you all to actually tell these comments/concerns TO NASL directly. It really doesn't seem like this has been done, and it really should have been the first thing done. We can all hold our nose high in the air and say how we should have been treated, and then make demands that SEEM outrageous when you are really upset about the small things...but if you want those small things changed then you need to say, "Change x, change y."
The important part is that NASL looks like it's willing to listen and willing to change. I would really like this whole matter to just be done, and I think both sides CAN come to an agreement...it's really not impossible, in which case, PLEASE talk to NASL about this.
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On August 17 2011 13:51 darkest44 wrote:
The only reason GOM can house some foreigners is because 1) they are the biggest 2) housing people in the GOM house that they already have and would be paying rent on regardless of if someone new comes in our not, is alot cheaper than paying for 16 peoples hotel rooms.
...and NASL can't rent out a place?
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NASL is so much fail, first time i watched the grand finals it was delayed by 2 hours for a simple reason of the projectors. Audio was awful 50 percent of the time I didn't even hear the broadcast. The camera man was extremely shaky like there was an earthquake or he wanted to be the camera man from cloverfield the movie.
My point is NASL needs to be more organized, they treat the fans and koreans like dirt. This is a true fact.
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Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete.
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