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On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?
Did NASL do that? Quote please.
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On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750
or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams.
EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news
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The Europeans don't seem to have issue with traveling to US. What's wrong with these Koreans...
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On August 17 2011 14:00 Soohard wrote:
NASL is so much fail, first time i watched the grand finals it was delayed by 2 hours for a simple reason of the projectors. Audio was awful 50 percent of the time I didn't even hear the broadcast. The camera man was extremely shaky like there was an earthquake or he wanted to be the camera man from cloverfield the movie.
My point is NASL needs to be more organized, they treat the fans and koreans like dirt. This is a true fact.
...and the camera that they used, incontrol's face was so bright that he was like under the sun
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On August 17 2011 14:11 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion. I'm sorry but arguing with you is pointless. You just repeat the same stuff without understanding simple logic. When you sign a contract with a 60 day deadline, yes, you don't expect to receive it sooner. You are a victim of the same issue as the Koreans...where you don't believe contracts are exact and clearly defined. I've read NASL's own statements, I've been following this topic thoroughly, have you? And there is no difference between TL and interview...they are both public. I can Google and read both of them. Regardless, that's not even my point. My point is if he is truly interested in improving the relationship, he would have taken the very friendly invite to discuss the problems and what needs to be changed. If someone goes up to you and says, "Hey so I hear you have a problem. Can you tell me what it is so that I can see what I can do?" Is it a normal response to ignore them if you're actually interested in making things better?
Again, I'm not saying Korean teams were entitled to have the money back soonver. I'm simply stating that wanting something like that is not a violation of a contract.
...let me quote it for you then since you obviously missed it:
We already set the precedent for this in Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, Zenio, PuMa, Squirtle with the deal that we'd subtract it from their prize money. We actually lost money on Zenio because he lost in the first round. We have already proven our determination in making sure Koreans make it to the event.
There is a difference between writing something on TL and doing an interview. Yes they are both public but that isn't the issue.
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I can't see how NASL will be relevant anymore with IPL doing live event with 100k prize money.
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On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go.
incorrect. sheth went and bailed out. team captain and all.
On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:
does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?
well said. you dont air your dirty laundry on forums. the koreans did the right thing, discussed their needs with the NASL privately and when an agreement could not be made, they pulled out. this is how any business and any relationship you want to respect should be handled.
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On August 17 2011 14:20 Supdude wrote:
The Europeans don't seem to have issue with traveling to US. What's wrong with these Koreans...
That's kind of the first thing that came to mind for me. The Europeans + Sen haven't said anything really or made demands of any sort.
Though I guess since Sen was on Fnatic ... he really wouldn't. Hahaha.
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On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?
GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms.
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On August 17 2011 14:21 bovi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. incorrect. sheth went and bailed out. team captain and all.
Sheth's situation is different - the extra spot opened up but was something that was not expected. If Sheth had qualified for the up/down, I'm sure he would've followed through with it.
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On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion.
I'm not going to comment on 2 - 5 because I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you, but your understanding of legal contracts is lacking, and your continued misinformation on #1 is starting to get annoyed.
If NASL states that they will pay the security deposit within 60 days of the tournament ending, that means they have 60 days. Koreans can request the deposit earlier but NASL has no obligation to provide it prior to the 60 days. So in this way NASL is not in the wrong.
As well, if Koreans signed a contract to participate in the NASL Season 2, then they are expected to participate in the NASL Season 2. It is clear that the contract stipulated this. Why?
A contract requires benefits to be present for both sides. It is clear what NASL would be providing in a contract (to be earned by the counterparties, the players or the teams, depending on who signed the contracts): The opportunity to earn prize money.
So what remuneration is provided the other way? It has to be mandated participation in the NASL. An "option" to participate in the NASL is not sufficient, as this provides no recompense to the NASL. This is why amendments to contracts, where one party rewrites some of the benefits, are often done with counterparty remuneration equivalent to the sum of one dollar.
So even without seeing the contract the Koreans signed it is clear that the contract noted mandatory participation in the league.
Where it might get iffy is whether the contract noted damages from breach of contract. If there is such a clause then Koreans could theoretically not participate and suffer simple monetary damages. No court in law is going to mandate specific performance, but if damages aren't specified in the contract, I cannot imagine that NASL has much to gain from a lawsuit.
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Wow, what a spit in the face. This is absurd. NASL should apologize? It is not NASL that broke contract in the 12th hour.
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On August 17 2011 14:07 bovi wrote:
thanks for highlighting this article, will read it now :D
read it. coach choi gave a good interview.
especially liked this.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
i find what NASL did similar to FXO complaining about s2con. posting on a forum - which is so childish - instead of going through proper channels. not professional nor mature at all.
Completely agree.
I like how MLG handles things more than NASL.
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On August 17 2011 14:14 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:05 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 13:52 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone. 1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is. 2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them. 3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview. 4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is. 5) Name them. 1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward. 2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge. 3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public). A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them. 4) Above 5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures. 1) Not really 2) They really did. Even in their OP, they said they were contacted by Mr. Chae. 3) He isn't saying NASL shouldn't have gone public at all. Also, why would he contact NASL when he has no intention of participating in it in current form. 5) It doesn't say players weren't shuttled, didn't have hotels booked. "Cared for" is very much subjective so not much point in discussing them, other than it actually says "NASL should take better care of the players." 1) Yes really, you sign a contract, you are giving your word to fulfill the contract. I don't know about you but when I give my word or promise I'm going to do something, I sure as hell I'm gonna do it because I don't want people doubting my word. 2) And again, Mr Chae is just a MEDIATOR, A MIDDLE MAN who was just relaying messages back and forth. To put it crudely, he the equivalent of a cell phone. He was just the instrument the Koreans decided to use to send their communications. And he didn't even know who was making the decisions. If he didn't know, how do you expect NASL to know? 3) If he has no intention of participating in NASL and his team didn't participate in the 1st season, why is he even talking. He even said in the actual interview that he couldn't comment on the contracts being signed for season 2 cause he wasn't privy to that. Well he wasn't privy to anything that happened in season 1 was he? 5) Jesus, what do they want, penthouse suites at the Ritz Carlton and limos taking them everywhere? They are the only ones complaining about this issue is the koreans, if the services provided were good enough for all the other players, it was good enough for them. 1) Again, you don't know what the contract does and doesn't say. 2) He knows who is making the decision because he is contacted by them to speak in the first place?3) He is talking as a potential sign up for NASL. 5) Don't make a hyperbole. Are you saying since not everyone is complaining, it isn't legit?
1) Pretty damn sure it says that by signing this contact you are obligating yourself, giving your word that you are going to participate is season 2. That's enough right there
2) OMG Mr Chae has even said himself he didn't know who was making the decisons!! Are you saying he's lying or has amnesia about who he talked to?
5) And yes I am saying that, because if nobody else is complaining that means it wasn't as bad they are trying to portray it. It might not have been champagne wishes and caviar dreams but everybody else was satisfied by it and found it acceptable, cause if they didn't you can be sure their displeasure would be known by now with all this commotion. Basically, they wouldn't have kept their mouths shut about it.
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United States7483 Posts
NASL can't afford to treat all their players the way the Koreans want to be treated, or else they would have agreed to their demands. Stating those demands again won't help or fix anything.
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korean are sensitive we should pamper them more =)
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On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms.
Idra left. Sheth left. The GSL made very amicable posts. not blame filled ones.
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On August 17 2011 14:20 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:11 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion. I'm sorry but arguing with you is pointless. You just repeat the same stuff without understanding simple logic. When you sign a contract with a 60 day deadline, yes, you don't expect to receive it sooner. You are a victim of the same issue as the Koreans...where you don't believe contracts are exact and clearly defined. I've read NASL's own statements, I've been following this topic thoroughly, have you? And there is no difference between TL and interview...they are both public. I can Google and read both of them. Regardless, that's not even my point. My point is if he is truly interested in improving the relationship, he would have taken the very friendly invite to discuss the problems and what needs to be changed. If someone goes up to you and says, "Hey so I hear you have a problem. Can you tell me what it is so that I can see what I can do?" Is it a normal response to ignore them if you're actually interested in making things better? Again, I'm not saying Korean teams were entitled to have the money back soonver. I'm simply stating that wanting something like that is not a violation of a contract. ...let me quote it for you then since you obviously missed it: Show nested quote +We already set the precedent for this in Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, Zenio, PuMa, Squirtle with the deal that we'd subtract it from their prize money. We actually lost money on Zenio because he lost in the first round. We have already proven our determination in making sure Koreans make it to the event. There is a difference between writing something on TL and doing an interview. Yes they are both public but that isn't the issue.
And I'm saying, I'm pretty sure a Season 2 contract entails promising to participate in Season 2, a fact that NASL verified. So if you sign it, you are saying you will be in Season 2. If you are not, then you are breaching contract, which NASL explicitly stated is the case.
Also, no, there is no difference between writing on TL and interview. You keep saying it yet you don't state this difference. And again, IT'S NOT THE POINT.
The point is, if MVP, or whichever team, actually care about fixing the situation, why not go to NASL directly like asked in their last statement where they've said that they don't know who to speak to and wish someone who had an active role in the decision making process would speak to them?
I feel like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, and not even listening to the stuff I or anyone else says.
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On August 17 2011 14:28 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Idra left. Sheth left. The GSL made very amicable posts. not blame filled ones.
Even the unprofessional case of Rain just bolting and getting banned didn't lead to any GSL sponsored hate. Just a simple announcement that he broke their rules and was banned from it.
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On August 17 2011 14:24 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion. I'm not going to comment on 2 - 5 because I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you, but your understanding of legal contracts is lacking, and your continued misinformation on #1 is starting to get annoyed. If NASL states that they will pay the security deposit within 60 days of the tournament ending, that means they have 60 days. Koreans can request the deposit earlier but NASL has no obligation to provide it prior to the 60 days. So in this way NASL is not in the wrong. As well, if Koreans signed a contract to participate in the NASL Season 2, then they are expected to participate in the NASL Season 2. It is clear that the contract stipulated this. Why? A contract requires benefits to be present for both sides. It is clear what NASL would be providing in a contract (to be earned by the counterparties, the players or the teams, depending on who signed the contracts): The opportunity to earn prize money. So what remuneration is provided the other way? It has to be mandated participation in the NASL. An "option" to participate in the NASL is not sufficient, as this provides no recompense to the NASL. This is why amendments to contracts, where one party rewrites some of the benefits, are often done with counterparty remuneration equivalent to the sum of one dollar. So even without seeing the contract the Koreans signed it is clear that the contract noted mandatory participation in the league. Where it might get iffy is whether the contract noted damages from breach of contract. If there is such a clause then Koreans could theoretically not participate and suffer simple monetary damages. No court in law is going to mandate specific performance, but if damages aren't specified in the contract, I cannot imagine that NASL has much to gain from a lawsuit.
I know NASL is not in the wrong. Where on earth did you get that impression?
The contract could have a clause regarding a withdrawal or what not.
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