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ESFI had the chance to talk with Youn-Sang Choi, the head coach and manager of MVP, and he wanted to weigh in on the current controversy surrounding the withdrawal of Korean teams from NASL.
As MVP did not participate in NASL and Coach Choi was not privy to the negotiations between the Korean teams and NASL, but he wanted to give his own opinion on how the Korean players became disillusioned with the league, from his third party perspective and based off what teams and players had told him about the NASL event.
He also talks about what he would need to see from NASL before he would consider letting MVP compete in the league.
You can read the full article at ESFI, but below is an excerpt.
MVP has not competed in NASL and has no plans to currently, but Coach Choi might reconsider if NASL fixes a few issues with their league, including clearing up the problem of the deposit.
He listed the things he would personally like to see from NASL before he would let his team participate.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Coach Choi hopes that his comments will not cause controversy, as he wants both sides to reach an amicable conclusion to the disagreement.
"I am not saying these things because of ill will towards NASL," added Choi, "I have no reason to hate NASL. I simply wish, as a fan of major tournaments, that NASL will be able to fix their mistakes in order to improve as an event."
Update:
Coach Choi wanted to emphasize the fact that the language barrier and time difference makes communication difficult and hopes that all sides will work together to prevent arguments like this one from occurring in the future.
I think the biggest problem is the difference in traditional values and language barrier, more than anything else. Because of the different time zones, communication doesn't precede right after the other. So I believe that instead of just speaking of one’s opinions, it will be an important step to have open mind and listen closely to what each other has to say, and try to compromise if there are any differences in opinions. As people who equally love Starcraft 2, it will be good to reduce unilateral announcements or manipulating the media, and instead publish suggestions at the same time after both have reflected their opinions.
Check out the full article at ESFI.
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Thank you for posting this! Will read now.
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... and would it kill you to lay out some red carpet!!!
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very nice , I'm glad to read what the koreans say about NASL, and I kinda agree, it is amateurish to post on TL before talking to all of them / working something out with them, I totally feel how the korean teams are feeling at this point in time.
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Finally someone telling it how it is. I fully agree with this and hope the NASL is taking notes. I want the NASL to succeed, and will support it. Hopefully this mess will blow over soon.
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"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about.
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why cant nasl rent a car and pick them up from an airport....
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On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Treat us like the rock stars that we are, OK?" I'm sure they want free steak dinners and limo service thrown in too.
When YOU are in foreign country, it would be nice if your host picks you up from the airport. They just want to be treated like a guest, not a rock star. So please dont insult their simple request...you are only insulting your own intelligence and manner.
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I'd be pretty pissed off too if a tournament greets me at the airport with an $80 bill for transport.
What the hell...
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I can understand why the koreans should withdraw from NASL. Waking 4am and then long delays of 1-2 will sure screw up your performance when GSTL starts.
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NASL was poorly ran and executed. No excuse about it. They sound even more amateur by trying to blame the Koreans on their incompetence...
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Fair enough. But its missing the whole point - signed contracts were violated. If you think a tournament is not up to standard, don't compete. Don't sign up for qualifiers and then pull out
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On August 17 2011 12:51 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Treat us like the rock stars that we are, OK?" I'm sure they want free steak dinners and limo service thrown in too. When YOU are in foreign country, it would be nice if your host picks you up from the airport. They just want to be treated like a guest, not a rock star. So please dont insult their simple request...you are only insulting your own intelligence and manner.
Fair enough point - requesting that travel from the airport to the tournament be taken care of is fine. Most of the Korean pros don't have great English skills, and they're all going to be really tired from the flight. At the same time, I'm not sure how much money NASL has to throw around at this sort of thing, and it would be fairly rude to make accommodations for Koreans and not for the European pros. I'm not entirely clear what happened with season one travel - it seemed to me as though NASL had footed that $80 bill before, and now it seems like they didn't.
As far as the article's points: Reducing technical issues, wait time, and generally increasing the level of professionalism at NASL events are obvious musts that need to happen as NASL continues on. I can't imagine what else they'd do, though - it's not like anyone at NASL is sitting there thinking, "Boy, we loved having all that deadtime at the finals! Made it really exciting, you know?"
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As an business decision I can totally understand due to effects on GSL/GSTL performance, possibility of losing money, and wasting 9 weeks of effort for nothing; though still wrong to go against the contract after going through qualifiers.
On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about.
The problem is that the fans care about game quality and the Koreans bring the quality of games to a new level and to keep the Koreans well...
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On August 17 2011 12:55 Azzur wrote:
Fair enough. But its missing the whole point - signed contracts were violated. If you think a tournament is not up to standard, don't compete. Don't sign up for qualifiers and then pull out
In addition to this, there is a point where it is a mutual relationship: the Koreans seem to make it out to be they are doing a favor to NASL, and not getting much in return. Lest we forget, 40$k is up for grabs, in addition to the whole 100$k prizepool. NASL shouldnt hae to wait hand and foot in return for something the Koreans are benefiting from.
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On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about.
While his demand's are a bit extreme, fans also care about the players. Also NASL focusing on the production and broadcast is a bit ironic, considering most of their problems are with the production and broadcast.
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They really need to set a certain schedule to play. Telling koreans to wait at 3 am till 6 am really hurts their schedule.
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Just a quick note: it wasn't Choo-Suk when NASL announcement came. It was, however, a 3-day weekend with Monday off as a national holiday in Korea.
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I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it?
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oplaid you playing starcraft now? What happened to tf2?
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On August 17 2011 12:59 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:55 Azzur wrote:
Fair enough. But its missing the whole point - signed contracts were violated. If you think a tournament is not up to standard, don't compete. Don't sign up for qualifiers and then pull out In addition to this, there is a point where it is a mutual relationship: the Koreans seem to make it out to be they are doing a favor to NASL, and not getting much in return. Lest we forget, 40$k is up for grabs, in addition to the whole 100$k prizepool. NASL shouldnt hae to wait hand and foot in return for something the Koreans are benefiting from.
This just shows how BADLY NASL treated them, for them to give up a chance to win $40k. That means NASL really messed up. Koreans have no problem going to MLG and other tournaments with smaller prize pool. It's not the $$, it's being mistreated.
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I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions?
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On August 17 2011 12:49 GGzerG wrote:
very nice , I'm glad to read what the koreans say about NASL, and I kinda agree, it is amateurish to post on TL before talking to all of them / working something out with them, I totally feel how the korean teams are feeling at this point in time.
Well, you have to race to the forum first, you know. The side that gets to the forum first gets more fans and become the good guy.
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On August 17 2011 12:59 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:55 Azzur wrote:
Fair enough. But its missing the whole point - signed contracts were violated. If you think a tournament is not up to standard, don't compete. Don't sign up for qualifiers and then pull out In addition to this, there is a point where it is a mutual relationship: the Koreans seem to make it out to be they are doing a favor to NASL, and not getting much in return. Lest we forget, 40$k is up for grabs, in addition to the whole 100$k prizepool. NASL shouldnt hae to wait hand and foot in return for something the Koreans are benefiting from.
You can't blame them for the qualifiers. I'm not clear on the timing of them, but it was said in the article that the qualifiers were before the finals. So, they only learned of the numerous problems after the qualifiers.
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On August 17 2011 12:43 oPlaiD wrote:ESFI had the chance to talk with Youn-Sang Choi, the head coach and manager of MVP, and he wanted to weigh in on the current controversy surrounding the withdrawal of Korean teams from NASL. As MVP did not participate in NASL and Coach Choi was not privy to the negotiations between the Korean teams and NASL, but he wanted to give his own opinion on how the Korean players became disillusioned with the league. He also talks about what he would need to see from NASL before he would consider letting MVP compete in the league. You can read the full article at ESFI, but below is an excerpt. Show nested quote +MVP has not competed in NASL and has no plans to currently, but Coach Choi might reconsider if NASL fixes a few issues with their league, including clearing up the problem of the deposit.
He listed the things he would personally like to see from NASL before he would let his team participate.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Coach Choi hopes that his comments will not cause controversy, as he wants both sides to reach an amicable conclusion to the disagreement.
"I am not saying these things because of ill will towards NASL," added Choi, "I have no reason to hate NASL. I simply wish, as a fan of major tournaments, that NASL will be able to fix their mistakes in order to improve as an event." Check out the full article at ESFI.
Does GSL MLG or anyone do all of these demands....nope didn't think so...what they want is down right outlandish.
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On August 17 2011 13:02 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:43 oPlaiD wrote:ESFI had the chance to talk with Youn-Sang Choi, the head coach and manager of MVP, and he wanted to weigh in on the current controversy surrounding the withdrawal of Korean teams from NASL. As MVP did not participate in NASL and Coach Choi was not privy to the negotiations between the Korean teams and NASL, but he wanted to give his own opinion on how the Korean players became disillusioned with the league. He also talks about what he would need to see from NASL before he would consider letting MVP compete in the league. You can read the full article at ESFI, but below is an excerpt. MVP has not competed in NASL and has no plans to currently, but Coach Choi might reconsider if NASL fixes a few issues with their league, including clearing up the problem of the deposit.
He listed the things he would personally like to see from NASL before he would let his team participate.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Coach Choi hopes that his comments will not cause controversy, as he wants both sides to reach an amicable conclusion to the disagreement.
"I am not saying these things because of ill will towards NASL," added Choi, "I have no reason to hate NASL. I simply wish, as a fan of major tournaments, that NASL will be able to fix their mistakes in order to improve as an event." Check out the full article at ESFI. Does GSL MLG or anyone do all of these demands....nope didn't think so...what they want is down right outlandish.
I'm not sure where you get that no other tournaments do what Coach Choi is asking for.
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I don't even think I am going to bother reading anything about this situation anymore. Both sides are handling things bad from my point of view so far and I can't see them fixing this. I will still watch season 2 but maybe for Season 3 everything will be fixed so both sides are happy.
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On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions?
Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait.
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They are talking about this right now on SotG. Pretty interesting points. Koreans want to have their cake and eat it too.
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Why again should NASL pay for everything? I really think they are asking way too much and why don't Koreans complain about every other tournament?
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I have to agree with coach choi on the security deposit complaint though, 250 and now 500 is just way too much, especially with having to pay the deposit for multiple players
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On August 17 2011 13:02 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:43 oPlaiD wrote:ESFI had the chance to talk with Youn-Sang Choi, the head coach and manager of MVP, and he wanted to weigh in on the current controversy surrounding the withdrawal of Korean teams from NASL. As MVP did not participate in NASL and Coach Choi was not privy to the negotiations between the Korean teams and NASL, but he wanted to give his own opinion on how the Korean players became disillusioned with the league. He also talks about what he would need to see from NASL before he would consider letting MVP compete in the league. You can read the full article at ESFI, but below is an excerpt. MVP has not competed in NASL and has no plans to currently, but Coach Choi might reconsider if NASL fixes a few issues with their league, including clearing up the problem of the deposit.
He listed the things he would personally like to see from NASL before he would let his team participate.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Coach Choi hopes that his comments will not cause controversy, as he wants both sides to reach an amicable conclusion to the disagreement.
"I am not saying these things because of ill will towards NASL," added Choi, "I have no reason to hate NASL. I simply wish, as a fan of major tournaments, that NASL will be able to fix their mistakes in order to improve as an event." Check out the full article at ESFI. Does GSL MLG or anyone do all of these demands....nope didn't think so...what they want is down right outlandish.
It's pretty obvious that the very reason he's asking for this is because it's standard and MLG and GSL do this.
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It makes sense for NASL to handle the logistics of Koreans coming, and really any competitor. Not for free, but just because they know where they need to stay, where they are going, etcetera. It's reasonable request in my opinion, especially when there are language barriers.
Security deposit, suck it up. It's an online tournament, there needs to be some sort of stick to insure people show up to their matches.
Any competitor/team who went through the qualifiers, signed up to participate in the league and then decide to pull out is a douche.
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On August 17 2011 13:02 TDN3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:49 GGzerG wrote:
very nice , I'm glad to read what the koreans say about NASL, and I kinda agree, it is amateurish to post on TL before talking to all of them / working something out with them, I totally feel how the korean teams are feeling at this point in time. Well, you have to race to the forum first, you know. The side that gets to the forum first gets more fans and become the good guy.
It's like he said though, very amateurish to post a tl thread before official release; the correct outlet is twitter.
Also I thought the reason nasl made that post was because they couldn't stall for anymore time waiting for any of the specific teams to deign to respond to them.
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On August 17 2011 13:02 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:43 oPlaiD wrote:ESFI had the chance to talk with Youn-Sang Choi, the head coach and manager of MVP, and he wanted to weigh in on the current controversy surrounding the withdrawal of Korean teams from NASL. As MVP did not participate in NASL and Coach Choi was not privy to the negotiations between the Korean teams and NASL, but he wanted to give his own opinion on how the Korean players became disillusioned with the league. He also talks about what he would need to see from NASL before he would consider letting MVP compete in the league. You can read the full article at ESFI, but below is an excerpt. MVP has not competed in NASL and has no plans to currently, but Coach Choi might reconsider if NASL fixes a few issues with their league, including clearing up the problem of the deposit.
He listed the things he would personally like to see from NASL before he would let his team participate.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Coach Choi hopes that his comments will not cause controversy, as he wants both sides to reach an amicable conclusion to the disagreement.
"I am not saying these things because of ill will towards NASL," added Choi, "I have no reason to hate NASL. I simply wish, as a fan of major tournaments, that NASL will be able to fix their mistakes in order to improve as an event." Check out the full article at ESFI. Does GSL MLG or anyone do all of these demands....nope didn't think so...what they want is down right outlandish.
don't they both cover travel expenses? And doesn't gom provide foreign players a house to stay in if they qualify?
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If I were to compete 9 weeks and come to the final and realize that I lose money overall, I wouldn't make the same decision again.
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We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
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Just saying, the Korean teams are not giving me cause to feel sympathy.
They're demanding special treatment over EVERY SINGLE OTHER PLAYER IN THE DAMN LEAGUE. And they did it at the last second leaving almost no time for NASL to react properly. Even after they tried to bridge the gap and offer what they could to the Koreans.
The Koreans "expect" to get preferential treatment, this is a shot at 50,000 USD and they're acting like it should be risk free. They are not entitled to ANYTHING more than anyone else, why couldn't they all have been like BoxeR and done this in a more mannered way.
I love these Korean players and I will continue to watch both NASL and GSL. This kind of behavior, however, irritates me.
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Well releasing the news is a cultural thing. NASL should have told us the Korean teams were not coming because corporate honesty and timeliness is an important thing in Western Culture.
Poor operation can probably be blamed on hiccups in having only run the event once?
Having a car is a nice thing though. I don't expect the Koreans to read English fluently enough to be able to find buses to the event, but they were provided with a greeter. Fair, the greeter should have to pay for their transportation.
Overall, I think the Korean teams do have reason for not coming. No one wants a bad event. They had a bad experience.
But I can't say that NASL is doing anything wrong this time around. They don't have an infinite budget, but if they lower their grand prize pool, they might lose viewers. I think they should increase the compensation for people to cover their total costs of living and transportation if they come in last, at the cost of the grand prizes, and fix a few hiccups, but that's it.
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"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
User was warned for this post
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the whole situtation stinks more and more lol
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On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
Is this a case of some Shuttle company sniping a few foreigners and charging them money pretending to be you guys?
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On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it?
Press release on their own website, like every other company.
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On August 17 2011 13:11 Phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it? Press release on their own website, like every other company.
Who cares, koreans think they are rockstars which they clearly are not.
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On August 17 2011 13:10 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Is this a case of some Shuttle company sniping a few foreigners and charging them money pretending to be you guys?
I'm pretty sure there are pictures out there an NASL person took of the Koreans on the shuttle.
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On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
seem like he thinks the players have to pay for it themselves.
I really want the Koreans to participate in the upcoming NASL (even delaying the entire season for a month to work things out). The schedule problem and the 9 weeks of hard work is a very valid point in which NASL can reconsider: getting into the finals should be a lot more deserving imo.
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It's true that NASL is incredibly amateurish we all got to see this.
Shameful that this was how we welcomed the Koreans to NA esports. Why would they want to come back.
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On August 17 2011 13:11 Phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it? Press release on their own website, like every other company.
Results would have been identical. Someone reads it on their website and then proceeds posts it with a sensationalist title on TL and quotes a snippet. Plays out exactly the same.
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On August 17 2011 13:00 NHY wrote:
Just a quick note: it wasn't Choo-Suk when NASL announcement came. It was, however, a 3-day weekend with Monday off as a national holiday in Korea.
Sorry about that! The MVP translator mixed up his holiday 
Apparently, it was GwangBokJul, literally "Restoration of Light Day", which celebrates Korean independence from Japan.
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I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact.
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"including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling"
Are you fucking kidding me? What planet are you living on? If you want to play in a tournament make your own arrangements, if every tournament done this they wouldn't make any money.
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The shuttle service was taken from the travel stipends -- but they had no out of pocket cost. When they arrived, a shuttle was waiting for them at LAX. I was at the airport for 6 hours that day to meet and greet every Korean who arrived. On Monday, we had 2 shuttles to send the Koreans back to LAX. All of these were paid for by us, receipts can be provided to prove this as well.
There are many issues that the MVP Coach raises that I believe are very legitimate however! I really do appreciate his comments
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This has been handled poorly by everyone and all of these posts don't help. What I will say though is its nice to accommodate for the Koreans and give them some incentive to come, but at the same time they want it to come out to be no cost to them to travel to a tournament they chose to participate in knowing the costs. If its too much money for them and their sponsors don't qualify or expect to be treated like kings
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On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
No, they only provide them with food, shelter, computers and slots in Code A. >_>
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I'm not even remotely sympathetic to the koreans that went through the qualifiers knowing what they were getting into, then bailing at the last second. I can't imagine any light that could shine on this to make it not look like a blatant attempt at extortion. My respect for NASL has increased ten fold after hearing them standing up for themselves in this situation and saying no to the last minute demands placed on them.
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On August 17 2011 13:01 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:59 CeriseCherries wrote:On August 17 2011 12:55 Azzur wrote:
Fair enough. But its missing the whole point - signed contracts were violated. If you think a tournament is not up to standard, don't compete. Don't sign up for qualifiers and then pull out In addition to this, there is a point where it is a mutual relationship: the Koreans seem to make it out to be they are doing a favor to NASL, and not getting much in return. Lest we forget, 40$k is up for grabs, in addition to the whole 100$k prizepool. NASL shouldnt hae to wait hand and foot in return for something the Koreans are benefiting from. This just shows how BADLY NASL treated them, for them to give up a chance to win $40k. That means NASL really messed up. Koreans have no problem going to MLG and other tournaments with smaller prize pool. It's not the $$, it's being mistreated.
MLG Pays for 4 of the Koreans to be flown in...most the other Koreans are sent by US teams....the Korean teams expect someone else to foot the bill for their travel and accommodation where ever they go worldwide which is an unrealistic expectation.
It's quite clear most of the korean teams didn't fully understand the contracts and terms....complaining about getting up at 4am is kind of a mute point of 'mistreatment' because they knew fully well when the league was taking place.
Complaining about the $$$$ won't make sense until NASL has not paid out for more then 60 days which was the length in time after the tournament they had to pay out winnings.
A large majority of the issue is most the complaints by the Koreans were known about before they signed up...and before they traveled to the US. If anything they've been spoiled by MLG throwing money at them and now they think they deserve that for everything.
You don't see GSL paying airfair for anyone who wins an MLG, or paying for food, or anything like that do you? You get a Code S pass, which may or may not amount to something....or a Code A pass which is a money sink unless you can make it to code S in 1 month and then place well in code S. The Korean leagues do just as little for the players as NASL.
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On August 17 2011 13:13 epik640x wrote:
It's true that NASL is incredibly amateurish we all got to see this.
Shameful that this was how we welcomed the Koreans to NA esports. Why would they want to come back.
Don't worry IPL and MLG will restore our reputation amongst the Koreans.
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On August 17 2011 13:12 Ome wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 VillageBC wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Is this a case of some Shuttle company sniping a few foreigners and charging them money pretending to be you guys? I'm pretty sure there are pictures out there an NASL person took of the Koreans on the shuttle.
There were. That's why I'm taking this article with a grain of salt. I feel like MVP has been told second-hand information, and would probably see their issues addressed better had they gone to NASL directly, something they failed to do in the first place that could have avoided this whole clusterfuck.
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so next, I guess they want to automatically win the tournament when they step off the plane too?
they need to stop feeling so entitled to it, NASL already did so much for them, as well as GSL doesn't do that for foreign players for code A and code s. Does GSL . so why should NASL.
also
1) *where* the hell is this "official channel".. playxp? NASL admins don't know korean.
2) ""Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance." <--- MLG Open Bracket ?
3) "Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, <-- very ambiguous, this is just like saying "GSL should fix their problems" or something stupid like that.
4) "NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast." <--- ok if GSL wants to "grow" they should now give us foreigners pick up from the airport, scheduling, korean team practice partners, "accomodations", instead of focusing on _what actually gets them money_...... Oh wait. They're _giving you money_, how about using it. Also. does GSL even give foreigners food while they are in the GOM House? Hum.
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On August 17 2011 13:15 Robonord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
No, they only provide them with food, shelter, computers and slots in Code A. >_>
They provide them with shelter that's it, player still has to feed themselves etc.
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On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Not sure but they get free housing and spots into Code A...
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On August 17 2011 13:15 Robonord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
No, they only provide them with food, shelter, computers and slots in Code A. >_>
I'm pretty sure the players themselves (i.e their teams) pays for this.
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MVP Choi needs to fucking decide what hat he's wearing - He's head of SC2CON and this descision for korean teams were made collectively between the teams in SC2CON + SlayerS - And then go out and call out NASL for abusing SC2CON's reputation by saying he wasn't wearing the SC2CON-hat at the time he talked to NASL.. I just don't get it..
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sigh, i'm pretty sure the koreans are equally, if not even more at fault for the current debacle.
seems to me from this interview that koreans wanna get special treatment for every foreign tournament they attend. Shouldn't they feel thankful enough that they have a chance to compete for the 50,000 first prize. 
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On August 17 2011 13:02 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:43 oPlaiD wrote:ESFI had the chance to talk with Youn-Sang Choi, the head coach and manager of MVP, and he wanted to weigh in on the current controversy surrounding the withdrawal of Korean teams from NASL. As MVP did not participate in NASL and Coach Choi was not privy to the negotiations between the Korean teams and NASL, but he wanted to give his own opinion on how the Korean players became disillusioned with the league. He also talks about what he would need to see from NASL before he would consider letting MVP compete in the league. You can read the full article at ESFI, but below is an excerpt. MVP has not competed in NASL and has no plans to currently, but Coach Choi might reconsider if NASL fixes a few issues with their league, including clearing up the problem of the deposit.
He listed the things he would personally like to see from NASL before he would let his team participate.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Coach Choi hopes that his comments will not cause controversy, as he wants both sides to reach an amicable conclusion to the disagreement.
"I am not saying these things because of ill will towards NASL," added Choi, "I have no reason to hate NASL. I simply wish, as a fan of major tournaments, that NASL will be able to fix their mistakes in order to improve as an event." Check out the full article at ESFI. Does GSL MLG or anyone do all of these demands....nope didn't think so...what they want is down right outlandish.
NASL has one big event per season. You expect GSL to pick of foreigners at the airport before each match? There are also a select few to go to the NASL finals not a shitlaod of people like at GSL. Plus GSL is giving free housing to foreigners at the GOM house.
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On August 17 2011 12:51 Pieismyign wrote:
why cant nasl rent a car and pick them up from an airport....
They did. There were even pictures of it.
They sure as hell didn't walk from the airport to the event location...
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On August 17 2011 13:15 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:13 epik640x wrote:
It's true that NASL is incredibly amateurish we all got to see this.
Shameful that this was how we welcomed the Koreans to NA esports. Why would they want to come back. Don't worry IPL and MLG will restore our reputation amongst the Koreans.
Koreans need to restore there reputations. Honour and ethics my ass.
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Oh I'm sorry Korea, what happened to "You guys are just scared of us, if there was a good esports scene in USA we would travel there"
So what they really meant was "If there was a good esports scene in USA, and you fly us over there, we would go"
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This is kind of dumb because no matter what Koreans say, we have Xeris and perhaps other NASL representatives in this very topic, which just doesn't make for a balanced debate - neither does SotG. I'm not saying that Xeris or anyone else is blatantly lying or something like that, but it's just that when you have 2 sides of an argument, and the best 1 side can do to communicate is post articles while the other side can directly interact with the rest of the community, it doesn't make for a balanced discussion. I'd rather have a direct interaction between a representative of the NASL and representatives of Korean teams in a discussion, because this constantly indirect releasing of opinions and arguments from either side just... doesn't seem to work.
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Just a quick question to xeris if you're still skimming through:
In the nasl statement it was said that you tried to contact them through email. Did they just never receive it? Was the email sent to...whoever this guy is or was it sent to chae or whoever and you relied on them to forward the message to the teams?
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So if all these demands are met, what's going to stop a player (or team) from not playing on schedule (online)?
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On August 17 2011 13:17 sleigh bells wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Not sure but they get free housing and spots into Code A...
And so what? The koreans who entered NASL _qualified_ for it, they weren't invited.. They chose to participate in the tournament, like was said on SotG
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Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it.
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Considering the prize pool, I would just suck it up and not do something so childish. It's just hurting the scene.
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Let's lay out red carpets and hot white chicks for them all!!!
Really??? all of these demands to go to a tournament with a big prize pool? kinda selfish...
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If you read the actual interview, the question is the the contracts being signed is brought up with him saying that he can't comment cause he wasn't privy to that. BUT he can comment on everything else even though he wasn't privy that that either??? Like Xeris has brought up:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
So basically he can comment on stuff as long as it helps his viewpoint regardless of whether he was privy to it or not, but if it can't help his argument or worse, weakens it, all of sudden it's, "Nope can't say anything cause I wasn't there."
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On August 17 2011 13:14 Xeris wrote:
The shuttle service was taken from the travel stipends -- but they had no out of pocket cost. When they arrived, a shuttle was waiting for them at LAX. I was at the airport for 6 hours that day to meet and greet every Korean who arrived. On Monday, we had 2 shuttles to send the Koreans back to LAX. All of these were paid for by us, receipts can be provided to prove this as well.
There are many issues that the MVP Coach raises that I believe are very legitimate however! I really do appreciate his comments
I think he's just listing out everything and not tailoring it specifically to what happened since as you noted, he was not actually there.
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Well, I went to both MLG Anaheim and NASL finals and I can tell you that it was like the difference between a company run tournament and tournament ran by a couple of starcraft buddies. No wonder everyone wants to come back to MLG even though it has shitty prize pool. Obviously, they had much better experience there at MLG.
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This seems crazy, I don't see how they don't want to compete for the 50k prize. I bet they will come back next season once they see Naniwa, Idra, Puma and the like coasting through the finals and getting paid.
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On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it.
The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when:
1) They signed contracts, then broke them
2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to
3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are
4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms.
5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone.
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On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Because son, in Korea, they actually are rockstars.
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On August 17 2011 13:22 Ahtiven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Because son, in Korea, they actually are rockstars.
You're confusing the SC2 players with the SCBW players.
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On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it?
On their official website? -_-
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On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact.
First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league.
Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles.
Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision?
Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore?
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On August 17 2011 13:22 Ahtiven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Because son, in Korea, they actually are rockstars.
Nope. Rockstars have sponsors.
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On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about.
bunk? They want to get picked up from the airport, given a place to sleep, and not sit around 7 hours waiting to play. i don't think those requests=wine and dined.
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On August 17 2011 13:15 Robonord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
No, they only provide them with food, shelter, computers and slots in Code A. >_>
John picks everyone up at the airport -.-
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5003 Posts
On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
Haha.
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Just out of curiousity, does GSL do any of those things for foreign players that go and compete in korea? Or is it up to said players team to make those arrangements?
Why do the koreans feel it's the tournaments responsibility to do all those things for them. If they don't want to compete in the tourney that's fine, don't compete. Don't tell the tournaments to bend over backwards for you if the 40K prize isn't enough then just don't come.
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On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore?
1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works.
2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know.
3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side).
4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him.
It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead.
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On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha.
Oh, this should be interesting.
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On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait.
I think it's a culture thing, since none of the Koreans missed a match.
I feel like the obvious solution would have been to have players check in ahead of time and if they didn't show up in the window then they got walked-over. But instead NASL was desperate to keep their matches broadcast and did things like make July wait until 8am for a no-show. Or asking players to make the decision on if they would take the walk-over (with all the community pressure to not 'duck' the players getting walked-over). Same thing happened to Boxer at the end of the season so it's not like they got stricter about no-shows either.
On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Part of John the Translator and Torch's job is picking up the Code A invites and sending them to the Gom House.
That's a big part of Torch's job with Gom (used to be John's job) is making sure the foreign players have everything they need (not paid for of course, but pointing them in the right direction).
They also have Wolf/Doa/Moletrap living in the Gom house to further help the foreigners.
The Gom House it should be noted, is available even to non-invites as long as there's enough room (Artosis interviewed a whole bunch of hopefuls there a few seasons ago).
For the GSL World Championships they covered airfare for all the participants too.
On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:
2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know.
People keep saying this, and it's true NASL did travel arrangements *even the article in the OP* says as much. Problems with flight cost lead to the Season 2 standoff.
And the problem with the shuttle is that NASL said they'd handle it, without telling the players that they would be charged. Notice that MVP's coach is saying that NASL gave them a ride and stuck them with the bill, never mentioning that ahead of time.
Yes, he's hearing it second hand, but he's not refuting that NASL provided transportation (as Xeris decided to get indignant about).
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On August 17 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:
This is kind of dumb because no matter what Koreans say, we have Xeris and perhaps other NASL representatives in this very topic, which just doesn't make for a balanced debate - neither does SotG. I'm not saying that Xeris or anyone else is blatantly lying or something like that, but it's just that when you have 2 sides of an argument, and the best 1 side can do to communicate is post articles while the other side can directly interact with the rest of the community, it doesn't make for a balanced discussion. I'd rather have a direct interaction between a representative of the NASL and representatives of Korean teams in a discussion, because this constantly indirect releasing of opinions and arguments from either side just... doesn't seem to work.
I think this is a good point.
A private live discussion would be a good way for both sides to clear their issues, after this NASL.
A streamed one could potentially heal the reputations of both sides, but it could also make it worse.
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He explained his concerns, fine, i can agree with some of them and if that's what they're used to, that's what they're going to expect. But now he needs to apologise (or SC2Con, whoever is at fault here i don't care, someone needs to man up and be held account for this) for their poor negotiating tactics and generally douchebaggery.
Still not impressed with Korean tactics here. Very very disrespectful. Makes EG look like saints.
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The total expenses for the trip for each player were over $2,000, and while that was the amount NASL offered to cover, $1,000 of that came out of the prize money for taking last place at the finals. That meant that players taking last place were losing money, making it difficult to justify nine weeks worth of effort for many professional gamers.
So you go through a 2 month long tournament, place top 16, and you actually end up losing money. A lot at that too. The tournament just isn't worth the risk vs. reward. It's not just winning one game in the playoffs, it's making it into the top 8 of a 64 player tournament which is very time consuming and uncomfortable the entire way through. As we saw through MLG, if the expenses are covered, the players will fly out even if the prize pool is much smaller.
NASL has done well trying to do what they can, but the fact of the matter is they still aren't covering a reasonable amount for their finalists.
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On August 17 2011 13:21 TDN3 wrote:
Well, I went to both MLG Anaheim and NASL finals and I can tell you that it was like the difference between a company run tournament and tournament ran by a couple of starcraft buddies. No wonder everyone wants to come back to MLG even though it has shitty prize pool. Obviously, they had much better experience there at MLG.
MLG have been doing events for years.
This was the first of NASL.
Don't to retarded comparsions.
GSL and OSL sucked in the beginning too. (I know, I was there.)
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On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha.
Don't pull a nony milkis, you gotta explain your comment quickly or this is gonna be several pages of speculation.
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god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent doesn't show up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands?
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On August 17 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:
This is kind of dumb because no matter what Koreans say, we have Xeris and perhaps other NASL representatives in this very topic, which just doesn't make for a balanced debate - neither does SotG. I'm not saying that Xeris or anyone else is blatantly lying or something like that, but it's just that when you have 2 sides of an argument, and the best 1 side can do to communicate is post articles while the other side can directly interact with the rest of the community, it doesn't make for a balanced discussion. I'd rather have a direct interaction between a representative of the NASL and representatives of Korean teams in a discussion, because this constantly indirect releasing of opinions and arguments from either side just... doesn't seem to work.
The difference between professionals releasing official statements and interviews, and amateur starcraft buddy organizers trying to make big bucks off fans' subscription fees.
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A lot of people seem to be conflating the interview with Coach Choi whose team has not participated in NASL, with every Korean who did.
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On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha.
Milkis comes to save the day
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On August 17 2011 13:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +The total expenses for the trip for each player were over $2,000, and while that was the amount NASL offered to cover, $1,000 of that came out of the prize money for taking last place at the finals. That meant that players taking last place were losing money, making it difficult to justify nine weeks worth of effort for many professional gamers. So you go through a 2 month long tournament, place top 16, and you actually end up losing money. A lot at that too. The tournament just isn't worth the risk vs. reward. It's not just winning one game in the playoffs, it's making it into the top 8 of a 64 player tournament which is very time consuming and uncomfortable the entire way through. NASL has done well trying to do what they can, but the fact of the matter is they still aren't covering a reasonable amount for their finalists.
Well this is how it works. All people who make the finals get a travel stipend of $1000. Then, NASL also gave all 16 players a minimum prize of $1000 that they weren't giving before (new this season). Which totals $2000.
Yes, if you don't make the finals you don't get any money despite participating in a 2 month tournament. And while I would agree with you that it would be nice, both for fans and players for NASLto have some kind of mid-season prize to make it "worth it"....that's not what the foreigners asked for.
They're not asking for compensation because the season is a long time and they want to be paid for playing, they specifically asked for travel and lodging, and they got an offer simply for that.
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On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about.
As a fan, I care more about the quality of the players and games.
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On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day
That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means.
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On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone.
1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is.
2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them.
3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview.
4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is.
5) Name them.
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On August 17 2011 13:29 koolaid1990 wrote:
god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent shows up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands?
the thing is, other than the 4am part (which is pretty much unavoidable considering this is the NASL, not the KSL), all the other non korean participants had to go through these as well, but you don't see them complaining and withdrawing from the competition do you?
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NASL amateurish? No effing way!
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On August 17 2011 13:29 koolaid1990 wrote:
god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent doesn't show up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands?
9 fucking weeks? You mean, 9 games?
You don't have to play at 4 am, at least in Season 2, as that was changed (wonder how many managers are actually aware of that and took the time to ask that or read up on that).
And NASL didn't make Boxer lose. Boxer lost because MC played better. Such is life as a pro-gamer...you're not always guaranteed to win.
But actually, in Season 2, every player is guaranteed a $1000 prize if they attend (which they can use for travel), AND a $1000 stipend, which is more than enough compensation.
Funny that someone who is negotiating for their entire team doesn't seem to even know what the other side is offering.
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5003 Posts
On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means.
There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything.
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the only thing that matters is the contract, and without knowing the contents, there's nothing to talk about.
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So they're going to ditch and screw over a league they already let their players qualify for, knowing NASL's policies before the qualifiers, over petty shit like being picked up at the airport for free... which actually I bet NASL would probably agree to do. But I'm sure the koreans behind this all, will just come up with 5 more demands for every demand met. Korea has been nothing but a drama fest and pissing contest lately, with these coaches/whoever clearly trying to power grab and be the next kespa. Yea NASL isn't the greatest, but they DO TRY and they do improve drastically, what korea is doing is just selfish and unprofessional. If they withdrew BEFORE qualifying then maybe itd be understandable. Man up and participate this season and decline to participate/dont enter the qualifiers, for the next.
Pathetic, foreigners travel across the globe and participate in tournaments which provide much less than NASL (no travel stipend, etc), and you don't see them making laundry lists of demands and withdrawing out of tournaments they already took other people's potential spots in through qualifiers.
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On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything.
Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B?
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On August 17 2011 13:32 nufcrulz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:29 koolaid1990 wrote:
god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent shows up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands? the thing is, other than the 4am part (which is pretty much unavoidable considering this is the NASL, not the KSL), all the other non korean participants had to go through these as well, but you don't see them complaining and withdrawing from the competition do you?
I bet even Ret was pissed as hell as he got 1st in his group, got knocked out in less than in hour.
I bet many were at least slightly frusterated.
And the 4am part isn't just another "other than that 4am thing"
Its changing your entire frekin sleep cycle. And Yes it is unavoidable, but NASL didn't do shit when there were no shows. Like when fuckin painuser didn't come and made boxer wait hours. They should have handled this much better. if they couldn't contact painuser, disqualify him after 15 minutes for god sakes.
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On August 17 2011 13:15 Nerski wrote:It's quite clear most of the korean teams didn't fully understand the contracts and terms....complaining about getting up at 4am is kind of a mute point of 'mistreatment' because they knew fully well when the league was taking place.
Did the contracts and terms state that they would sometimes have to wait 2 hours for another player?
I fully understand their side, they have to pay deposits, which makes them feel like they are treated as potential criminals, and they don't get it back right away. They have to forfeit any sort of sleep schedule in order to play through the massive 2 month qualifying process which does NOT guarantee them a spot. They are also expected to play the remaining games even after they are no longer in a qualifying position or else they get deposit penalties. They have to spend thousands of dollars to play in a tournament with a format that has the potential to eliminate them after just 2 games, and it's on fixed maps so they don't get an advantage in g2 if they lose g1.
And this is just my 2cents, but i'd guess the reason they only decided to leave the NASL S2 so late was because they were still in a negotiation process.
On August 17 2011 13:15 Nerski wrote:
You don't see GSL paying airfair for anyone who wins an MLG, or paying for food, or anything like that do you? You get a Code S pass, which may or may not amount to something....or a Code A pass which is a money sink unless you can make it to code S in 1 month and then place well in code S. The Korean leagues do just as little for the players as NASL.
The Korean leagues have no reason to give advantages to foreign players. It's just more code A fodder that gets knocked first round by korean b-teamers. They have no reason to want more than just the 2-3 deserving foreigners that stay and play and attract international audiences.
NASL needs the korean players if they want to have the best players in the world competing, otherwise it's just second tier pros playing, and that's why they need to give more and be more flexible than what GSL offers to foreigners. GSL already has the best players, they have no reason to give benefits to second tier pros.
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On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything.
That's vague, unhelpful, and doesn't make them look any better.
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On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B?
The Koreans are probably upset that the shuttle service wasnt a limousine with caviar and wine being served on the ride to the venue.
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On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone. 1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is. 2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them. 3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview. 4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is. 5) Name them.
1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward.
2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge.
3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public).
A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them.
4) Above
5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures.
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On August 17 2011 13:33 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:29 koolaid1990 wrote:
god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent doesn't show up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands? 9 fucking weeks? You mean, 9 games? You don't have to play at 4 am, at least in Season 2, as that was changed (wonder how many managers are actually aware of that and took the time to ask that or read up on that).And NASL didn't make Boxer lose. Boxer lost because MC played better. Such is life as a pro-gamer...you're not always guaranteed to win. But actually, in Season 2, every player is guaranteed a $1000 prize if they attend (which they can use for travel), AND a $1000 stipend, which is more than enough compensation.
Funny that someone who is negotiating for their entire team doesn't seem to even know what the other side is offering.
That's still THEIR money though. If they decided not to fly over they would still be given the prize money right? It's like buying into a tournament and losing 1000 dollars by just attempting to place higher would be just downright shitty.
Also, the koreans asking for all of this would apply to ALL the finalists. The foreigners just don't give a shit because their teams can afford these expenses. Korean teams have a lot more financial responsiblity in managing their team than foreign teams right now and they just can't afford to send all their players everywhere.
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On August 17 2011 13:29 koolaid1990 wrote:
god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent doesn't show up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands?
-9 weeks
-4am
-single elim final
-travel expenses
All things that they knew well ahead of time before the tournament even started.
Compare your risk/reward to a foreigner trying to get into code s. You gotta spend at least a month to maybe get $1500 (much less than the $2000 nasl is offering for certain). And then the koreans complain that foreigners dont wanna go to korea cus its too hard rofl.
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This thread is HURTING ESPORTS!!!
Hasn't hollywood taught you anything? Divided we are weak. Currently I think the Koreans are in the wrong, but I want to hold off on judgement. Drama like this is too sensationalistic. The attention may be a good thing, it provides excitement, but I don't want isolation between Korean and the western world's tournaments.
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I'm still siding with the NASL. There's no reason any of that stuff should be provided, imo. If you don't want to participate, then don't, but don't make it sound like it's the NASL's fault.
The only thing I think NASL could possibly apologize for would be mentioning sc2con if they weren't involved. That's it.
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5003 Posts
On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B?
Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B
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On August 17 2011 13:33 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:29 koolaid1990 wrote:
god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent doesn't show up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands? 9 fucking weeks? You mean, 9 games? You don't have to play at 4 am, at least in Season 2, as that was changed (wonder how many managers are actually aware of that and took the time to ask that or read up on that).And NASL didn't make Boxer lose. Boxer lost because MC played better. Such is life as a pro-gamer...you're not always guaranteed to win. But actually, in Season 2, every player is guaranteed a $1000 prize if they attend (which they can use for travel), AND a $1000 stipend, which is more than enough compensation.
Funny that someone who is negotiating for their entire team doesn't seem to even know what the other side is offering.
Wtf When did i ever say NASL made Boxer lose? I said he lost one single elimination bo3, after playing countless group play games and winning them. What im trying to point out here, is its unfair to win all these games, travel across the world, then lose 1 b03 and you just lose. Your Out.
They really should change the system, at least make it b05 or do loser's bracket.
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On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead.
1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract.
2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for.
3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message.
4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..."
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On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B
Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing?
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On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B
Can you explain? Providing limited detail does not really help, since we are left to speculate. Was it 1 km away? 10 km away? Did it require an additional taxi ride? Was there failure in planning or in execution? Did the shuttle break down?
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i agree with coach choi, the nasl was so disorganized i remember the first day of nasl StJuly waited 5 hours just to play his games and his opponent never showed up, etc etc. and there was so many problems with the production.
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On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
For 80 bucks a pop. You footing the bill tough guy?
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On August 17 2011 13:40 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:33 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:29 koolaid1990 wrote:
god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent doesn't show up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands? 9 fucking weeks? You mean, 9 games? You don't have to play at 4 am, at least in Season 2, as that was changed (wonder how many managers are actually aware of that and took the time to ask that or read up on that).And NASL didn't make Boxer lose. Boxer lost because MC played better. Such is life as a pro-gamer...you're not always guaranteed to win. But actually, in Season 2, every player is guaranteed a $1000 prize if they attend (which they can use for travel), AND a $1000 stipend, which is more than enough compensation.
Funny that someone who is negotiating for their entire team doesn't seem to even know what the other side is offering. That's still THEIR money though. If they decided not to fly over they would still be given the prize money right? It's like buying into a tournament and losing 1000 dollars by just attempting to place higher would be just downright shitty. Also, the koreans asking for all of this would apply to ALL the finalists. The foreigners just don't give a shit because their teams can afford these expenses. Korean teams have a lot more financial responsiblity in managing their team than foreign teams right now and they just can't afford to send all their players everywhere.
It WASN'T their money BEFORE the negotiations because they were never PROMISED a minimum $1000 prize. That was ADDED for season 2.
"The foreigners just don't give a shit because their teams can afford these expenses. "
White-Ra paid for his plane ticket completely out of pocket without a dime from NASL for season 1.
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5003 Posts
On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing?
Haha, sorry.
1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is.
2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt.
Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL.
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yes we all know nasl handled everything like shit
then why did the teams sign a "contract" late july? why?????????? i
we need to know what was in the contract and why they "broke" it. then we'll know if the koreans did anything wrong.
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Thanks for sharing this interview, very interesting stuff.
Coach Choi Fighting! I agree with his point of view. Anyway the whole NASL tournament format is flawed.
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On August 17 2011 12:59 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:55 Azzur wrote:
Fair enough. But its missing the whole point - signed contracts were violated. If you think a tournament is not up to standard, don't compete. Don't sign up for qualifiers and then pull out In addition to this, there is a point where it is a mutual relationship: the Koreans seem to make it out to be they are doing a favor to NASL, and not getting much in return. Lest we forget, 40$k is up for grabs, in addition to the whole 100$k prizepool. NASL shouldnt hae to wait hand and foot in return for something the Koreans are benefiting from.
Honestly not that much for almost 3 months of play at insane hours even if the Koreans did qualify
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'...including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling'
Some of you seriously have problems with that? That's hardly pampering the players. That is beyond basic for this type of thing. If NASL seriously didn't take care of that stuff in the first place it just shows how amateur they are. As a few others have already pointed out... GOM DOES do this stuff for foreigners. You guys really think in any professional business that they would expect foreigners that come to take care of everything themselves? No. The host takes care of it for them.
Either way... thanks for the article OP!
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On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day
Please don't come Milkis. A known forumer's opinion might cause chaos. Let it end there. It's not good for your future image in this forum.
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On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL.
Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did)
In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview.
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fnatic xeris is cool  duran fighting!
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On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..."
1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract.
2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point.
3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes.
However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk.
4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves.
I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them.
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On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL.
please milkis dont fight -.-
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On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview.
I believe Coach Choi was more concerned about the 'hidden' charge. Clearly the Koreans did not expect to be paying for the shuttle service or they wouldn't be making a big deal out of the $80 bill. Which also sounds like NASL didn't even remember to take that out of their travel stipend and instead tacked it on after the fact.
Also, Coach Choi seems concerned that the Koreans teams had to negotiate for transportation in the first place. Which seems like something most events would have ready in the first place.
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5003 Posts
On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview.
Even if the $80 dollars was from the travel stipend, when you have NASL staff come pick up the players and then the staff just tells the players to pay up.... that's just completely opposite of what Koreans expect that it's hilarious. You don't pick up someone at the airport (and pretend that they are your guest) and tell the guest to pay for the shuttle ride...
The impression I got was that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not one "big" thing that did NASL in, it's the little things that piled up that became that major road block. Essentially, little things like that signals quite a bit about NASL's quality.
That's all I'll say on the matter. Not trying to start a fight, as I thought I'm just sharing something that does give a little bit more insight into what Coach Choi was talking about.
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On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B?
Let me break it down for you, since you need it.
They did provide transport and also a bill for it, which they promptly handed over to the koreans. In their shoes I'd be sooooo pissed.
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On August 17 2011 13:46 TDN3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day Please don't come Milkis. A known forumer's opinion might cause chaos. Let it end there. It's not good for your future image in this forum.
Not good for his future image? He's a respected figure posting an opinion, and I for one would wholly support him if he can provide more insight from the Korean point of view since we have a good amount of people providing insight from NASL/foreigner's point of view right now.
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On August 17 2011 13:46 oxxo wrote:
'...including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling'
Some of you seriously have problems with that? That's hardly pampering the players. That is beyond basic for this type of thing. If NASL seriously didn't take care of that stuff in the first place it just shows how amateur they are. As a few others have already pointed out... GOM DOES do this stuff for foreigners. You guys really think in any professional business that they would expect foreigners that come to take care of everything themselves? No. The host takes care of it for them.
Either way... thanks for the article OP!
Okay, so MLG and basically every other none gsl tournament is amateur? Because they don't pay for all your travel and hotel...
The only reason GOM can house some foreigners is because 1) they are the biggest 2) housing people in the GOM house that they already have and would be paying rent on regardless of if someone new comes in our not, is alot cheaper than paying for 16 peoples hotel rooms.
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On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B?
Gosh, wish I can read Korean.
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On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone. 1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is. 2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them. 3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview. 4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is. 5) Name them. 1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward. 2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge. 3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public). A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them. 4) Above 5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures.
1) Not really
2) They really did. Even in their OP, they said they were contacted by Mr. Chae.
3) He isn't saying NASL shouldn't have gone public at all. Also, why would he contact NASL when he has no intention of participating in it in current form.
5) It doesn't say players weren't shuttled, didn't have hotels booked.
"Cared for" is very much subjective so not much point in discussing them, other than it actually says "NASL should take better care of the players."
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Yes, I agree that the NASL could've done things better - e.g. organise better transport, etc. The format and playing conditions were also something that the koreans didn't like. However, ALL the conditions were known up-front and AGREED to by the koreans in a SIGNED contract. The NASL did not do anything less than what they agreed to. Yes, they could do more but they did not do LESS than what was AGREED to.
Lets not forget the real losers:
- The people who wanted to qualify for S2 but lost to the koreans in the qualifiers. Why has no one even mentioned them?
- The fans who bought a S2 ticket because of the expectations that the koreans will be there.
The koreans have bought out legitimate concerns. They also brought out a lot of small stuff which I'm sure the NASL can improve on. In fact, the NASL even improved on their scheduling. And I'm sure they will improve on transportation and organisation.
What the stumbling block of the deal appears to be money - the koreans wanted more (the NASL even agreed to increase the travel stipend + minimum prize money). It all boils down to the koreans banding together to demand more money. Since they didn't get that, they all pulled out.
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Realized that the koreans really only have such major widespread issues with NASL, and not with any of the numerous other big and small international tournaments that they have attended or going to attend. That says loads on its own.
NASL needs better PR and efficiency, constant reminders that they're a new start-up is getting really stale.
While MLG is not new, they did an excellent job both PR and ground wise after their debacles, and cleaned up their act, people are even more enthusiastic about each upcoming MLGs now.
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On August 17 2011 13:50 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview. Even if the $80 dollars was from the travel stipend, when you have NASL staff come pick up the players and then the staff just tells the players to pay up.... that's just completely opposite of what Koreans expect that it's hilarious. You don't pick up someone at the airport (and pretend that they are your guest) and tell the guest to pay for the shuttle ride... The impression I got was that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not one "big" thing that did NASL in, it's the little things that piled up that became that major road block. Essentially, little things like that signals quite a bit about NASL's quality. That's all I'll say on the matter. Not trying to start a fight, as I thought I'm just sharing something that does give a little bit more insight into what Coach Choi was talking about.
Now i understand why the koreans players are so mad at nasl after all shuttle was provided than when the destination end they were demanded $80 for something that should be provided for and promised ? . That is some promise from nasl.
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On August 17 2011 13:53 Azzur wrote:
What the stumbling block of the deal appears to be money - the koreans wanted more (the NASL even agreed to increase the travel stipend + minimum prize money). It all boils down to the koreans banding together to demand more money. Since they didn't get that, they all pulled out.
Organising transport then expecting the guests to foot the bill upfront on arrival is less about the money and more about a lack of organisation and respect.
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Yeah they're acting like spoiled brats. I no longer have any respect for them from a business perspective.
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how is the contract signed 2 weeks before the start of season 2?
what about the qualifiers in june? were there no contracts then? they could play the qualifier matches, and then ditch nasl?
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On August 17 2011 13:56 Phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:53 Azzur wrote:
What the stumbling block of the deal appears to be money - the koreans wanted more (the NASL even agreed to increase the travel stipend + minimum prize money). It all boils down to the koreans banding together to demand more money. Since they didn't get that, they all pulled out. Organising transport then expecting the guests to foot the bill upfront on arrival is less about the money and more about a lack of organisation and respect.
I agree that the NASL made a mistake on this one.
Regardless, if the NASL has offered more money (e.g. pay for airfare + hotel), the koreans would've accepted the deal. This shows that it was indeed about money. If it was about respect, the koreans would've just pulled out instantly without going to the negotiating table.
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I think MvP's comments here are pretty mature and uncontroversial. I kinda agree with them though, a lot of the NASL production was a bit shoddy, esp compared to the IGN proleague..
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On August 17 2011 13:50 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview. Even if the $80 dollars was from the travel stipend, when you have NASL staff come pick up the players and then the staff just tells the players to pay up.... that's just completely opposite of what Koreans expect that it's hilarious. You don't pick up someone at the airport (and pretend that they are your guest) and tell the guest to pay for the shuttle ride... The impression I got was that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not one "big" thing that did NASL in, it's the little things that piled up that became that major road block. Essentially, little things like that signals quite a bit about NASL's quality. That's all I'll say on the matter. Not trying to start a fight, as I thought I'm just sharing something that does give a little bit more insight into what Coach Choi was talking about.
If someone gives me a travel stipend, and arranges a shuttle to pick me up, I would be shocked to be asked to pay for the shuttle. I would be even more disturbed if when confronted about it, they said, well, you didn't really have to pay for it, it came from your travel stipend. That's insane.
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Ah I understand better, thanks Milkis.
In which case, if MVP or any other Korean team manager is reading this, I would really urge you all to actually tell these comments/concerns TO NASL directly. It really doesn't seem like this has been done, and it really should have been the first thing done. We can all hold our nose high in the air and say how we should have been treated, and then make demands that SEEM outrageous when you are really upset about the small things...but if you want those small things changed then you need to say, "Change x, change y."
The important part is that NASL looks like it's willing to listen and willing to change. I would really like this whole matter to just be done, and I think both sides CAN come to an agreement...it's really not impossible, in which case, PLEASE talk to NASL about this.
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On August 17 2011 13:51 darkest44 wrote:
The only reason GOM can house some foreigners is because 1) they are the biggest 2) housing people in the GOM house that they already have and would be paying rent on regardless of if someone new comes in our not, is alot cheaper than paying for 16 peoples hotel rooms.
...and NASL can't rent out a place?
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NASL is so much fail, first time i watched the grand finals it was delayed by 2 hours for a simple reason of the projectors. Audio was awful 50 percent of the time I didn't even hear the broadcast. The camera man was extremely shaky like there was an earthquake or he wanted to be the camera man from cloverfield the movie.
My point is NASL needs to be more organized, they treat the fans and koreans like dirt. This is a true fact.
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Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete.
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On August 17 2011 13:59 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:I kinda agree with them though, a lot of the NASL production was a bit shoddy, esp compared to the IGN proleague..
it's not about the production, it's about the entire way the tournament was run by the organisers.
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TLADT24920 Posts
More potshots at each other. Either way, interesting to see MVP's side of the story
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On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete.
...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it.
grow up.
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I do see a problem the way NASL released its information..all this drama could have avoided if they took more of a professional approach to it..instead, blowing it all out there basically throwing a punch at them...what do u think? of course they will do what they can do ruin your reputation as well..just bad business practice...
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I thought MVP's coach brought up valid points of concern about NASL. He seems like a coach that does care about the health of the industry and the quality of tournaments, international or Korean. Seems like he was the only Korean coach that considered the tournament seriously, and held back his players because of his concerns. His thoughts felt earnest and I hope other coaches will, like coach Choi, will reconsider NASL once and if their concerns are addressed properly in the future.
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On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them.
1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ?
2) Read NASL's own statement.
3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional.
4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself.
They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion.
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On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest their money in it. grow up.
Choosing not to compete is very different from violating a signed contract.
As I mentioned earlier, the NASL did not do LESS than what was AGREED upon. I do agree that the NASL can do better. The concerns that the koreans voiced out can be used as feedback for the NASL to improve.
In the end, it all boils down to money - if the NASL has gave in to the korean demands (airfare + hotel), they would've come. The whole matter was about the korean teams banding together to use their bargaining power.
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On August 17 2011 14:00 Soohard wrote:
NASL is so much fail, first time i watched the grand finals it was delayed by 2 hours for a simple reason of the projectors. Audio was awful 50 percent of the time I didn't even hear the broadcast. The camera man was extremely shaky like there was an earthquake or he wanted to be the camera man from cloverfield the movie.
My point is NASL needs to be more organized, they treat the fans and koreans like dirt. This is a true fact.
Ugh I hate take these articles and just use it as a complete basis to hate.
First of all, yes the finals were delayed and it was crappy. But that's because, as Russ said, the projector blew out right before the start of the show. I really don't see how they could have expected or foreseen that...technical glitches can and do happen without anyone's mistake.
Shaky camera...I've seen worse.
Audio was crappy, I will give you that.
However, I wouldn't go so far to say they treat fans and Koreans like dirt. In fact, I remember several people saying the live event was one of the best they've attended. I see several happily returning fans and players. And I don't think it's personal or carelessness, I think it's simple mistakes because of their inexperience.
The big problem is that I feel like this hurt the Koreans' pride so they are pretty much unwilling to negotiate, otherwise they would have put more effort into it. But I feel like, if they expressed their perspective directly to NASL, about these little things and what they mean, it's not like NASL would say, "HAHAHA SCREW YOU." I'm sure they'd listen and take it into account.
Problem is, everyone dropped out and nobody who made the decision to drop out talked to NASL about why they're dropping out. That's kind of crappy.
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On August 17 2011 13:52 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone. 1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is. 2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them. 3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview. 4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is. 5) Name them. 1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward. 2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge. 3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public). A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them. 4) Above 5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures. 1) Not really 2) They really did. Even in their OP, they said they were contacted by Mr. Chae. 3) He isn't saying NASL shouldn't have gone public at all. Also, why would he contact NASL when he has no intention of participating in it in current form. 5) It doesn't say players weren't shuttled, didn't have hotels booked. "Cared for" is very much subjective so not much point in discussing them, other than it actually says "NASL should take better care of the players."
1) Yes really, you sign a contract, you are giving your word to fulfill the contract. I don't know about you but when I give my word or promise I'm going to do something, I sure as hell I'm gonna do it because I don't want people doubting my word.
2) And again, Mr Chae is just a MEDIATOR, A MIDDLE MAN who was just relaying messages back and forth. To put it crudely, he the equivalent of a cell phone. He was just the instrument the Koreans decided to use to send their communications. And he didn't even know who was making the decisions. If he didn't know, how do you expect NASL to know?
3) If he has no intention of participating in NASL and his team didn't participate in the 1st season, why is he even talking. He even said in the actual interview that he couldn't comment on the contracts being signed for season 2 cause he wasn't privy to that. Well he wasn't privy to anything that happened in season 1 was he?
5) Jesus, what do they want, penthouse suites at the Ritz Carlton and limos taking them everywhere? They are the only ones complaining about this issue is the koreans, if the services provided were good enough for all the other players, it was good enough for them.
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5003 Posts
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thanks for highlighting this article, will read it now :D
read it. coach choi gave a good interview.
especially liked this.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
i find what NASL did similar to FXO complaining about s2con. posting on a forum - which is so childish - instead of going through proper channels. not professional nor mature at all.
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On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion.
I'm sorry but arguing with you is pointless. You just repeat the same stuff without understanding simple logic. When you sign a contract with a 60 day deadline, yes, you don't expect to receive it sooner. You are a victim of the same issue as the Koreans...where you don't believe contracts are exact and clearly defined.
I've read NASL's own statements, I've been following this topic thoroughly, have you?
And there is no difference between TL and interview...they are both public. I can Google and read both of them.
Regardless, that's not even my point. My point is if he is truly interested in improving the relationship, he would have taken the very friendly invite to discuss the problems and what needs to be changed.
If someone goes up to you and says, "Hey so I hear you have a problem. Can you tell me what it is so that I can see what I can do?" Is it a normal response to ignore them if you're actually interested in making things better?
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what it feels like is that the koreans think NASL was a really amateurish operation, but can't/won't just come out and say it cause that would look really bad.
Like from milkis' comment, what do you say? "Don't drop us off on the wrong end of the airport"? that's embarrassing. "Have more than 1 match an hour"? You want to publish this stuff in an article?
Do people honestly expect the korean teams to sit down and hold NASL's hands? Especially when most every other tourney like MLG has come out much more professionally about it?
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correct me if I'm wrong but I believe how business is conducted is very important in Korean culture. For example, a few years ago a Korean bank was supposed to buy Lehman Borthers, but refused not because of price but because how they conducted the negotiations. It's probably not about the shuttle expenses, but how the NASL mistreated the Korean players in their eyes.
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On August 17 2011 14:05 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:52 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone. 1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is. 2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them. 3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview. 4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is. 5) Name them. 1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward. 2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge. 3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public). A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them. 4) Above 5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures. 1) Not really 2) They really did. Even in their OP, they said they were contacted by Mr. Chae. 3) He isn't saying NASL shouldn't have gone public at all. Also, why would he contact NASL when he has no intention of participating in it in current form. 5) It doesn't say players weren't shuttled, didn't have hotels booked. "Cared for" is very much subjective so not much point in discussing them, other than it actually says "NASL should take better care of the players." 1) Yes really, you sign a contract, you are giving your word to fulfill the contract. I don't know about you but when I give my word or promise I'm going to do something, I sure as hell I'm gonna do it because I don't want people doubting my word. 2) And again, Mr Chae is just a MEDIATOR, A MIDDLE MAN who was just relaying messages back and forth. To put it crudely, he the equivalent of a cell phone. He was just the instrument the Koreans decided to use to send their communications. And he didn't even know who was making the decisions. If he didn't know, how do you expect NASL to know? 3) If he has no intention of participating in NASL and his team didn't participate in the 1st season, why is he even talking. He even said in the actual interview that he couldn't comment on the contracts being signed for season 2 cause he wasn't privy to that. Well he wasn't privy to anything that happened in season 1 was he? 5) Jesus, what do they want, penthouse suites at the Ritz Carlton and limos taking them everywhere? They are the only ones complaining about this issue is the koreans, if the services provided were good enough for all the other players, it was good enough for them.
1) Again, you don't know what the contract does and doesn't say.
2) He knows who is making the decision because he is contacted by them to speak in the first place?
3) He is talking as a potential sign up for NASL.
5) Don't make a hyperbole. Are you saying since not everyone is complaining, it isn't legit?
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On August 17 2011 14:12 Kaneh wrote:
what it feels like is that the koreans think NASL was a really amateurish operation, but can't/won't just come out and say it cause that would look really bad.
Like from milkis' comment, what do you say? "Don't drop us off on the wrong end of the airport"? that's embarrassing. "Have more than 1 match an hour"? You want to publish this stuff in an article?
Do people honestly expect the korean teams to sit down and hold NASL's hands? Especially when most every other tourney like MLG has come out much more professionally about it?
No, but I think what IS expected of them is that if they're going to negotiate, then do it properly (aka a REAL representative like a team managers its down with a rep from NASL). They have not done this.
I think that's my biggest issue after breaking the contracts. The way they negotiated was so poor and disorganized and unprofessional that I don't think they have the right to call anyone else disorganized and unprofessional. That's NOT how you negotiate. And I'm sure if they HAD negotiated properly, better outcomes would have resulted for everybody.
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On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up.
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go.
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On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
They werent saying they didnt get picked up, they were saying it cost them 80 dollars. Ive heard this from more than one source. Are you saying its not true?
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On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up.
Yea and what happens when someone pulls out of a GSL they qualified for at the last moment? They get banned from GSL and shunned by the korean community, ie Rain. But hey the same shouldn't apply to koreans when its a silly foreigner tournament right?
They didnt simply "choose not to compete" before the qualifiers, they did it way after they already qualified and took spots in the brackets from people who would actually have played, thats the problem. Ditching at the last minute screws over NASL royally. Rain slightly screwed up one round of 32 group by giving 2 players a free win, this move screws up the entire NASL.
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On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go.
does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?
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On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?
Did NASL do that? Quote please.
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On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750
or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams.
EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news
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The Europeans don't seem to have issue with traveling to US. What's wrong with these Koreans...
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On August 17 2011 14:00 Soohard wrote:
NASL is so much fail, first time i watched the grand finals it was delayed by 2 hours for a simple reason of the projectors. Audio was awful 50 percent of the time I didn't even hear the broadcast. The camera man was extremely shaky like there was an earthquake or he wanted to be the camera man from cloverfield the movie.
My point is NASL needs to be more organized, they treat the fans and koreans like dirt. This is a true fact.
...and the camera that they used, incontrol's face was so bright that he was like under the sun
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On August 17 2011 14:11 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion. I'm sorry but arguing with you is pointless. You just repeat the same stuff without understanding simple logic. When you sign a contract with a 60 day deadline, yes, you don't expect to receive it sooner. You are a victim of the same issue as the Koreans...where you don't believe contracts are exact and clearly defined. I've read NASL's own statements, I've been following this topic thoroughly, have you? And there is no difference between TL and interview...they are both public. I can Google and read both of them. Regardless, that's not even my point. My point is if he is truly interested in improving the relationship, he would have taken the very friendly invite to discuss the problems and what needs to be changed. If someone goes up to you and says, "Hey so I hear you have a problem. Can you tell me what it is so that I can see what I can do?" Is it a normal response to ignore them if you're actually interested in making things better?
Again, I'm not saying Korean teams were entitled to have the money back soonver. I'm simply stating that wanting something like that is not a violation of a contract.
...let me quote it for you then since you obviously missed it:
We already set the precedent for this in Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, Zenio, PuMa, Squirtle with the deal that we'd subtract it from their prize money. We actually lost money on Zenio because he lost in the first round. We have already proven our determination in making sure Koreans make it to the event.
There is a difference between writing something on TL and doing an interview. Yes they are both public but that isn't the issue.
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I can't see how NASL will be relevant anymore with IPL doing live event with 100k prize money.
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On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go.
incorrect. sheth went and bailed out. team captain and all.
On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:
does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?
well said. you dont air your dirty laundry on forums. the koreans did the right thing, discussed their needs with the NASL privately and when an agreement could not be made, they pulled out. this is how any business and any relationship you want to respect should be handled.
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On August 17 2011 14:20 Supdude wrote:
The Europeans don't seem to have issue with traveling to US. What's wrong with these Koreans...
That's kind of the first thing that came to mind for me. The Europeans + Sen haven't said anything really or made demands of any sort.
Though I guess since Sen was on Fnatic ... he really wouldn't. Hahaha.
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On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?
GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms.
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On August 17 2011 14:21 bovi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. incorrect. sheth went and bailed out. team captain and all.
Sheth's situation is different - the extra spot opened up but was something that was not expected. If Sheth had qualified for the up/down, I'm sure he would've followed through with it.
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On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion.
I'm not going to comment on 2 - 5 because I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you, but your understanding of legal contracts is lacking, and your continued misinformation on #1 is starting to get annoyed.
If NASL states that they will pay the security deposit within 60 days of the tournament ending, that means they have 60 days. Koreans can request the deposit earlier but NASL has no obligation to provide it prior to the 60 days. So in this way NASL is not in the wrong.
As well, if Koreans signed a contract to participate in the NASL Season 2, then they are expected to participate in the NASL Season 2. It is clear that the contract stipulated this. Why?
A contract requires benefits to be present for both sides. It is clear what NASL would be providing in a contract (to be earned by the counterparties, the players or the teams, depending on who signed the contracts): The opportunity to earn prize money.
So what remuneration is provided the other way? It has to be mandated participation in the NASL. An "option" to participate in the NASL is not sufficient, as this provides no recompense to the NASL. This is why amendments to contracts, where one party rewrites some of the benefits, are often done with counterparty remuneration equivalent to the sum of one dollar.
So even without seeing the contract the Koreans signed it is clear that the contract noted mandatory participation in the league.
Where it might get iffy is whether the contract noted damages from breach of contract. If there is such a clause then Koreans could theoretically not participate and suffer simple monetary damages. No court in law is going to mandate specific performance, but if damages aren't specified in the contract, I cannot imagine that NASL has much to gain from a lawsuit.
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Wow, what a spit in the face. This is absurd. NASL should apologize? It is not NASL that broke contract in the 12th hour.
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On August 17 2011 14:07 bovi wrote:
thanks for highlighting this article, will read it now :D
read it. coach choi gave a good interview.
especially liked this.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."
i find what NASL did similar to FXO complaining about s2con. posting on a forum - which is so childish - instead of going through proper channels. not professional nor mature at all.
Completely agree.
I like how MLG handles things more than NASL.
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On August 17 2011 14:14 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:05 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 13:52 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone. 1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is. 2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them. 3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview. 4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is. 5) Name them. 1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward. 2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge. 3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public). A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them. 4) Above 5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures. 1) Not really 2) They really did. Even in their OP, they said they were contacted by Mr. Chae. 3) He isn't saying NASL shouldn't have gone public at all. Also, why would he contact NASL when he has no intention of participating in it in current form. 5) It doesn't say players weren't shuttled, didn't have hotels booked. "Cared for" is very much subjective so not much point in discussing them, other than it actually says "NASL should take better care of the players." 1) Yes really, you sign a contract, you are giving your word to fulfill the contract. I don't know about you but when I give my word or promise I'm going to do something, I sure as hell I'm gonna do it because I don't want people doubting my word. 2) And again, Mr Chae is just a MEDIATOR, A MIDDLE MAN who was just relaying messages back and forth. To put it crudely, he the equivalent of a cell phone. He was just the instrument the Koreans decided to use to send their communications. And he didn't even know who was making the decisions. If he didn't know, how do you expect NASL to know? 3) If he has no intention of participating in NASL and his team didn't participate in the 1st season, why is he even talking. He even said in the actual interview that he couldn't comment on the contracts being signed for season 2 cause he wasn't privy to that. Well he wasn't privy to anything that happened in season 1 was he? 5) Jesus, what do they want, penthouse suites at the Ritz Carlton and limos taking them everywhere? They are the only ones complaining about this issue is the koreans, if the services provided were good enough for all the other players, it was good enough for them. 1) Again, you don't know what the contract does and doesn't say. 2) He knows who is making the decision because he is contacted by them to speak in the first place?3) He is talking as a potential sign up for NASL. 5) Don't make a hyperbole. Are you saying since not everyone is complaining, it isn't legit?
1) Pretty damn sure it says that by signing this contact you are obligating yourself, giving your word that you are going to participate is season 2. That's enough right there
2) OMG Mr Chae has even said himself he didn't know who was making the decisons!! Are you saying he's lying or has amnesia about who he talked to?
5) And yes I am saying that, because if nobody else is complaining that means it wasn't as bad they are trying to portray it. It might not have been champagne wishes and caviar dreams but everybody else was satisfied by it and found it acceptable, cause if they didn't you can be sure their displeasure would be known by now with all this commotion. Basically, they wouldn't have kept their mouths shut about it.
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United States7483 Posts
NASL can't afford to treat all their players the way the Koreans want to be treated, or else they would have agreed to their demands. Stating those demands again won't help or fix anything.
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korean are sensitive we should pamper them more =)
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On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms.
Idra left. Sheth left. The GSL made very amicable posts. not blame filled ones.
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On August 17 2011 14:20 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:11 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion. I'm sorry but arguing with you is pointless. You just repeat the same stuff without understanding simple logic. When you sign a contract with a 60 day deadline, yes, you don't expect to receive it sooner. You are a victim of the same issue as the Koreans...where you don't believe contracts are exact and clearly defined. I've read NASL's own statements, I've been following this topic thoroughly, have you? And there is no difference between TL and interview...they are both public. I can Google and read both of them. Regardless, that's not even my point. My point is if he is truly interested in improving the relationship, he would have taken the very friendly invite to discuss the problems and what needs to be changed. If someone goes up to you and says, "Hey so I hear you have a problem. Can you tell me what it is so that I can see what I can do?" Is it a normal response to ignore them if you're actually interested in making things better? Again, I'm not saying Korean teams were entitled to have the money back soonver. I'm simply stating that wanting something like that is not a violation of a contract. ...let me quote it for you then since you obviously missed it: Show nested quote +We already set the precedent for this in Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, Zenio, PuMa, Squirtle with the deal that we'd subtract it from their prize money. We actually lost money on Zenio because he lost in the first round. We have already proven our determination in making sure Koreans make it to the event. There is a difference between writing something on TL and doing an interview. Yes they are both public but that isn't the issue.
And I'm saying, I'm pretty sure a Season 2 contract entails promising to participate in Season 2, a fact that NASL verified. So if you sign it, you are saying you will be in Season 2. If you are not, then you are breaching contract, which NASL explicitly stated is the case.
Also, no, there is no difference between writing on TL and interview. You keep saying it yet you don't state this difference. And again, IT'S NOT THE POINT.
The point is, if MVP, or whichever team, actually care about fixing the situation, why not go to NASL directly like asked in their last statement where they've said that they don't know who to speak to and wish someone who had an active role in the decision making process would speak to them?
I feel like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, and not even listening to the stuff I or anyone else says.
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On August 17 2011 14:28 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Idra left. Sheth left. The GSL made very amicable posts. not blame filled ones.
Even the unprofessional case of Rain just bolting and getting banned didn't lead to any GSL sponsored hate. Just a simple announcement that he broke their rules and was banned from it.
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On August 17 2011 14:24 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore? 1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works. 2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know. 3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side). 4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him. It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead. 1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract. 2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for. 3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message. 4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..." 1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract. 2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point. 3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes. However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk. 4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves. I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them. 1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ? 2) Read NASL's own statement. 3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional. 4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself. They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion. I'm not going to comment on 2 - 5 because I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you, but your understanding of legal contracts is lacking, and your continued misinformation on #1 is starting to get annoyed. If NASL states that they will pay the security deposit within 60 days of the tournament ending, that means they have 60 days. Koreans can request the deposit earlier but NASL has no obligation to provide it prior to the 60 days. So in this way NASL is not in the wrong. As well, if Koreans signed a contract to participate in the NASL Season 2, then they are expected to participate in the NASL Season 2. It is clear that the contract stipulated this. Why? A contract requires benefits to be present for both sides. It is clear what NASL would be providing in a contract (to be earned by the counterparties, the players or the teams, depending on who signed the contracts): The opportunity to earn prize money. So what remuneration is provided the other way? It has to be mandated participation in the NASL. An "option" to participate in the NASL is not sufficient, as this provides no recompense to the NASL. This is why amendments to contracts, where one party rewrites some of the benefits, are often done with counterparty remuneration equivalent to the sum of one dollar. So even without seeing the contract the Koreans signed it is clear that the contract noted mandatory participation in the league. Where it might get iffy is whether the contract noted damages from breach of contract. If there is such a clause then Koreans could theoretically not participate and suffer simple monetary damages. No court in law is going to mandate specific performance, but if damages aren't specified in the contract, I cannot imagine that NASL has much to gain from a lawsuit.
I know NASL is not in the wrong. Where on earth did you get that impression?
The contract could have a clause regarding a withdrawal or what not.
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On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news
All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there.
I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out.
This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing.
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On August 17 2011 14:24 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:21 bovi wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. incorrect. sheth went and bailed out. team captain and all. Sheth's situation is different - the extra spot opened up but was something that was not expected. If Sheth had qualified for the up/down, I'm sure he would've followed through with it.
he still had gstl matches. he was team captain. you're practically saying he'd only stay for as long as he had solo matches to play. how endearing. and if i recall correctly, he nv said he'd stay if he made it to the up and downs.
he threw in the towel b4 his team's mission was complete. maybe for his own sanity, it was right of him to leave, but he did bail out. this is in answer to l3gendary's post. that's why sheth was released from his FXO contract.
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Excellent journalism by ESFI.
I applaud your efforts in the pursuit of truth as well as your tact and tone.
Thank you for the article.
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On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms.
Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners.
Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what?
Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did.
Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/Preliminaries
Guess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL.
So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public.
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Every time a Korean manager speaks about this they look worse and worse, really disappointing.
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That is exactly what i said. What NASL did was just get pissed that the korean teams left and wanted to slander their names.
GL to NASL for future season because i think many wont be watching.
If you are "losing respect" for korean teams than you really didnt understand what they are like in the first place. they have a very different way of dealing with things in Korea and its why they tended to stay in korea for BW because of shit like what NASL did. Respect and keeping face is a huge deal in korea(and most asian countries) and they hate it when people slander their name.
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On August 17 2011 14:27 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:14 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 14:05 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 13:52 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it. The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when: 1) They signed contracts, then broke them 2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to 3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are 4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms. 5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone. 1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is. 2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them. 3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview. 4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is. 5) Name them. 1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward. 2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge. 3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public). A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them. 4) Above 5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures. 1) Not really 2) They really did. Even in their OP, they said they were contacted by Mr. Chae. 3) He isn't saying NASL shouldn't have gone public at all. Also, why would he contact NASL when he has no intention of participating in it in current form. 5) It doesn't say players weren't shuttled, didn't have hotels booked. "Cared for" is very much subjective so not much point in discussing them, other than it actually says "NASL should take better care of the players." 1) Yes really, you sign a contract, you are giving your word to fulfill the contract. I don't know about you but when I give my word or promise I'm going to do something, I sure as hell I'm gonna do it because I don't want people doubting my word. 2) And again, Mr Chae is just a MEDIATOR, A MIDDLE MAN who was just relaying messages back and forth. To put it crudely, he the equivalent of a cell phone. He was just the instrument the Koreans decided to use to send their communications. And he didn't even know who was making the decisions. If he didn't know, how do you expect NASL to know? 3) If he has no intention of participating in NASL and his team didn't participate in the 1st season, why is he even talking. He even said in the actual interview that he couldn't comment on the contracts being signed for season 2 cause he wasn't privy to that. Well he wasn't privy to anything that happened in season 1 was he? 5) Jesus, what do they want, penthouse suites at the Ritz Carlton and limos taking them everywhere? They are the only ones complaining about this issue is the koreans, if the services provided were good enough for all the other players, it was good enough for them. 1) Again, you don't know what the contract does and doesn't say. 2) He knows who is making the decision because he is contacted by them to speak in the first place?3) He is talking as a potential sign up for NASL. 5) Don't make a hyperbole. Are you saying since not everyone is complaining, it isn't legit? 1) Pretty damn sure it says that by signing this contact you are obligating yourself, giving your word that you are going to participate is season 2. That's enough right there 2) OMG Mr Chae has even said himself he didn't know who was making the decisons!! Are you saying he's lying or has amnesia about who he talked to? 5) And yes I am saying that, because if nobody else is complaining that means it wasn't as bad they are trying to portray it. It might not have been champagne wishes and caviar dreams but everybody else was satisfied by it and found it acceptable, cause if they didn't you can be sure their displeasure would be known by now with all this commotion. Basically, they wouldn't have kept their mouths shut about it.
1) And what other things are there?
2) Quote please. The one I saw was something like "Mr. Chae said he doesn't know who is behind this decision." He wouldn't know why teams decided as such, as he wasn't part of that decision.
5) Maybe, maybe not. There is a group of people saying one thing and another nothing. The silence doesn't mean vocal group is wrong.
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What the heck ? Stop being so amateurish? How about koreans stop being such divas? Europeans with terrible english have attended so many american competitions yet the koreans expect so much babying.
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On August 17 2011 14:32 bovi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:24 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:21 bovi wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. incorrect. sheth went and bailed out. team captain and all. Sheth's situation is different - the extra spot opened up but was something that was not expected. If Sheth had qualified for the up/down, I'm sure he would've followed through with it. he still had gstl matches. he was team captain. you're practically saying he'd only stay for as long as he had solo matches to play. how endearing. and if i recall correctly, he nv said he'd stay if he made it to the up and downs. he threw in the towel b4 his team's mission was complete. maybe for his own sanity, it was right of him to leave, but he did bail out. this is in answer to l3gendary's post. that's why sheth was released from his FXO contract.
Anyways, whatever Sheth's situation was, what he would have done, is all pure speculation. The main thing is that he communicated with FXO and GSL.
In the NASL situation, the koreans came to the negotiating table and demanded more money (airfare + hotel). Since their demands were not met, they violated a contract they agreed upon.
What Sheth did is totally different to what the koreans did.
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On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?
Huh? The foriegners didn't mislead them by agreeing to participate and then telling them they wont if their demands aren't met.
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Yea I agree NASL got alot of problems however the korean teams entered the qualifier and signed the contract they knew about these problems before hand so there is no excuse!
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51408 Posts
On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public.
it was iterated by multiple team sources that they had to pay for flights themselves
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On August 17 2011 14:35 Herry wrote:
That is exactly what i said. What NASL did was just get pissed that the korean teams left and wanted to slander their names.
GL to NASL for future season because i think many wont be watching.
How did NASL slander their names?
Where is this bashing?
What are you guys talking about? What are you reading that I haven't read? Have you even stopped to consider that you may be projecting things into the post that weren't there?
Saying, "Koreans expressed concerns. We gave them offers. They rejected and will not be participating in Season 2. We are disappointed." IS NOT slandaring. I mean seriously, how the fuck is that slandarding?
Is that NOT what happened? Do Koreans claim that they are NOT actually withdrawing and that NASL didn't make the offers that they claimed to have? No. SO therefore, it cannot logically be slandering.
And the thread doesn't have a shred of bashing in it.
Reading 101 is highly needed for some people.
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On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public.
Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions).
NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many.
Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes.
Could their PR be better? Yes.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process.
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On August 17 2011 13:41 koolaid1990 wrote:
Wtf When did i ever say NASL made Boxer lose? I said he lost one single elimination bo3, after playing countless group play games and winning them. What im trying to point out here, is its unfair to win all these games, travel across the world, then lose 1 b03 and you just lose. Your Out.
They really should change the system, at least make it b05 or do loser's bracket.
Unfair? Not at all, considering it's the same thing that happened to Ret, Sheth, MorroW, HasuObs, Zenio, aLive and White-Ra. And considering this was WELL KNOWN to be the format since... the league was announced, ya know?
Does it suck? Absolutely.
Is it unfair? Absolutely not.
On August 17 2011 14:00 Soohard wrote:
My point is NASL needs to be more organized, they treat the fans and koreans like dirt. This is a true fact.
Actually, this is your opinion.
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On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing.
from the NASL post
We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season.
straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.
The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people.
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i wonder why MVP coach not talk about how shitty SC2con it is. rather than talking nonsense
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On August 17 2011 14:21 deerpark87 wrote:
I can't see how NASL will be relevant anymore with IPL doing live event with 100k prize money.
...and for free to the fans with much better production.
Remember when NASL first announced that there's some "guy" dropped off 400k for the tournament to support esport as if it was a free 400k prize pool. Now everyone realized they charged this and that not only to the fans but also to the players. I wonder how much money have collected. Obviously, some rich guy (maybe EG) wanted to make big profit off the fans and the players without anyone knowing who's behind NASL.
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I don't understand this at all. It seems the only outcome of this is to create Drama. NASL is one tournament of many, it's an open tournament where you can apply for it. You sign a contract and get the details of what you can expect.
Some of the koreans NOT ALL KOREANS, didn't like it, so they don't want to continue being a part of it. Fine, why the hell do NASL and these korean players feel the urge to make a public stunt about it over and over again? what do they gain from by making the other side look evil, it doesn't change the situation that the korean teams feels like they aren't being compensated enough or that the NASL can't afford any more support.
We still have GSL, Dreamhack and MLG to name a few that has Korean and none koreans playing against each other. Why do people even care about what happens in NASL?
This is insane. It's nothing more than a clusterfuck of drama.
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On August 17 2011 12:55 Azzur wrote:
Fair enough. But its missing the whole point - signed contracts were violated. If you think a tournament is not up to standard, don't compete. Don't sign up for qualifiers and then pull out
Very true. Those signed-up teams should take responsibility too, they cannot solely blame NASL for poor scheduling (indeed they are) and running of the tournament.
MVP coach stated the problems from NASL, and the demands from Korean teams, from the 3rd angle of the incident. I hope both invloved parties can learn from it and lets make esports become better and better.
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On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:from the NASL post Show nested quote +We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people.
Wait wait wait... you expect an organization that plans 9+ weeks of content in advance based on a pre-determined player list to not be upset that 15 players are being pulled from their league on Day 2 of production because of demands by the managers made shortly beforehand?
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On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post Show nested quote +We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a significant number of people.
Read my entire post, not just the first sentence.
"Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. "
You are reading things that weren't there. When I originally read that post, I didn't at all feel like you. Therefore this bashing cannot be coming from the post itself, otherwise everyone would have felt that way.
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On August 17 2011 14:41 TDN3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:21 deerpark87 wrote:
I can't see how NASL will be relevant anymore with IPL doing live event with 100k prize money. ...and for free to the fans with much better production. Remember when NASL first announced that there's some "guy" dropped off 400k for the tournament to support esport as if it was a free 400k prize pool. Now everyone realized they charged this and that not only to the fans but also to the players. I wonder how much money have collected. Obviously, some rich guy (maybe EG) wanted to make big profit off the fans and the players without anyone knowing who's behind NASL.
Yeah because mlg, gsl, hc3 aren't charging anyone...oh wait. Anyway i seriously doubt they've turned a profit in the first season.
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On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process.
If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM.
And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew.
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On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post Show nested quote +We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people.
Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour.
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Thanks for posting this OP. Interesting read to say the least. More E-Drama!
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On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour.
i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional.
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On August 17 2011 14:21 deerpark87 wrote:
I can't see how NASL will be relevant anymore with IPL doing live event with 100k prize money.
NASL's random ass stream tonight stole the majority of the viewership from IPL.
Their production quality greatly increased.
The competition between IPL and NASL will improve both and make them both very, very relevant.
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On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew.
If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew.
Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them.
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Well there it is. The first mistake MVP is making is attempting to take the NASL seriously after having watched Season 1. Until NASL proves themselves to be a legitimate contender in the events space, teams shouldn't pay much attention.
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On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them.
and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel.
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On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel.
They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that.
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On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:
[quote]
...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it.
grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that.
Are you talking about season 1 or season 2?
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On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly.
And it's considered handling it correctly to sign a contract, then 15 days before filiming proclaim through a 3rd party that you had concerns, and then 2nd day of filming you respond to the offer made 15 days ago?
Do you consider handling it correctly to enter negotiations, albeit late, but instead of talking directly to Xeris or whoever at NASL, instead you tell a guy to tell a guy to tell Mr.Chae to tell NASL what you want? Is that how busiensses negotiate?
If SC2Con is true in saying that this was the individual team's decision, why did not a single team manager contact Xeris/NASL? Idk, if I was a team manager and I was thinking of dropping out, I'd tell NASL? I wouldn't tell a guy to tell a guy to tell a guy, and then when NASL asks, "Wait who made this decision?" hide and not admit to it. Why would you bring up negotiations and then hide?
All NASL did is announce it, which they had to (and they announced it after negotiations ended). It's not like you can exactly go forward without announcing it. All they said was what happened and that they're disappointed about the results of negotiations.
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On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel.
Seriously... NASL booked for airfare, hotel, shuttle paid by players. Lets get some facts straight.
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On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:
[quote]
...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it.
grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that.
They also don't want to wake up and 4am then wait 2-3hrs to play a laggy game cross servers.
User was warned for this post
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the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con
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On August 17 2011 14:52 TDN3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that. Are you talking about season 1 or season 2?
Season 2
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On August 17 2011 14:53 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that. They also don't want to wake up and 4am then wait 2-3hrs to play a laggy game cross servers.
What is your point?
No one is forcing them to participate. The issue is that they agreed to and signed a contract stating that they will.
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On August 17 2011 14:53 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that. They also don't want to wake up and 4am then wait 2-3hrs to play a laggy game cross servers.
Both of those issues were resolved in season 2. Are Koreans even aware of that, or did they just rush to a boycott without actually looking at the details because they refused to negotiate with NASL directly?
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On August 17 2011 14:54 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:53 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:
[quote]
does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that. They also don't want to wake up and 4am then wait 2-3hrs to play a laggy game cross servers. What is your point? No one is forcing them to participate. The issue is that they agreed to and signed a contract stating that they will.
My point is that NASL is run so unprofessional that you don't need to give a crap about the damn contract. Happy?
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On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.
What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete. ...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it. grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional.
Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory.
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On August 17 2011 14:54 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:53 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:
[quote]
does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that. They also don't want to wake up and 4am then wait 2-3hrs to play a laggy game cross servers. What is your point? No one is forcing them to participate. The issue is that they agreed to and signed a contract stating that they will.
and i think the reason for higher deposit is because of players not showing up in their schedule
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On August 17 2011 14:53 vertical101 wrote:
the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con
Boxer is the model of conduct.
Speculation: This is why Slayers have sponsors - sponsors only want to negotiate with professional teams.
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On August 17 2011 14:57 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:54 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:53 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:
[quote]
GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that. They also don't want to wake up and 4am then wait 2-3hrs to play a laggy game cross servers. What is your point? No one is forcing them to participate. The issue is that they agreed to and signed a contract stating that they will. My point is that NASL is run so unprofessional that you don't need to give a crap about the damn contract. Happy?
Unfortunately that's not how the world works...
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On August 17 2011 14:57 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:54 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:53 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:
[quote]
GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that. They also don't want to wake up and 4am then wait 2-3hrs to play a laggy game cross servers. What is your point? No one is forcing them to participate. The issue is that they agreed to and signed a contract stating that they will. My point is that NASL is run so unprofessional that you don't need to give a crap about the damn contract. Happy?
Did NASL violate the contract? They could've done better but they fulfilled what they said they would do.
Your post "probably" sums up what the koreans are thinking. And that is unethical and wrong.
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On August 17 2011 14:58 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:53 vertical101 wrote:
the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con Boxer is the model of conduct. Speculation: This is why Slayers have sponsors - sponsors only want to negotiate with professional teams.
I can also speculate that reason why only MLG, IPL, and GOM has sponsors. Sponsor only wants to negotiate with professional leagues.
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On August 17 2011 14:57 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:54 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:53 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:50 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:49 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:45 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:34 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:
[quote]
GSL doesn't make posts because the foreigners did nothing wrong. If the koreans simply "chose not to participate" (e.g. boxer), that is totally fine and there will be no posts on TL. In fact, Boxer and NASL are on good terms. Wrong wrong wrong. GOMTV GAVE 5 star treatments to foreigners. Remember the 2011 GSL World Championship? All foreigner airplane tickets+ housing was cover by GOMTV http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship. They were guarantee 2.7k as long as they play and win the preliminaries. Well guess what? Some foreigners didn't bother to show up for the preliminaries and gave walk over to those that did. Fact: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_World_Championship/PreliminariesGuess what GOMTV did? nothing. They didn't bash them like what NASL. So yes, foreigners do wrong too, just GOMTV have the don't bash them like what NASL do public. Anyways, what GOM does is a moot point (i.e. you may be right/wrong, but the discussion of what they did is not relevant to the current discussions). NASL bashed the koreans because the koreans violated a SIGNED contract enmasse. It wasn't just one korean, it was many. Could the NASL have organised the tournement better? Yes. Could their PR be better? Yes. But it still doesn't change the fact that the koreans pulled out because of MONEY and affected ALOT of people in the process. If GOM isn't relevant, then don't defend a guy when he brings up GOM. And this topic is about the korean response to NASL and how it actually isn't about money. That's the supposed 'fact' this interview sheds light on. It's much more about how NASL treated the players and how poorly it was organzied - so poorly that the majority of koreans took offense and withdrew. If it wasn't about money, the koreans would've straight up withdrew. Instead, they went to the negotiating table and demanded airfare + hotel. But since their demands were not met, they pulled out. This showed that money could've swayed them. and they got airfare and hotel paid for as the post by NASL revealed. but still withdrew, so it seems that it really wasn't about airfare and hotel. They received $1000 prize money + $1000 travel stipend. The koreans wanted more than that. They also don't want to wake up and 4am then wait 2-3hrs to play a laggy game cross servers. What is your point? No one is forcing them to participate. The issue is that they agreed to and signed a contract stating that they will. My point is that NASL is run so unprofessional that you don't need to give a crap about the damn contract. Happy?
Breaching contracts, bringing up negotiations and then hiding behind 2nd and 3rd parities is totally professional. Businesses and sponsors love that. That's why Korean teams are doing well and don't need NASL...
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Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season.
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On August 17 2011 15:01 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:58 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:53 vertical101 wrote:
the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con Boxer is the model of conduct. Speculation: This is why Slayers have sponsors - sponsors only want to negotiate with professional teams. I can also speculate that reason why only MLG, IPL, and GOM has sponsors. Sponsor only wants to negotiate with professional leagues.
NASL has sponsors and nothing they did in this matter was unprofessional, except perhaps releasing receipts to prove the TIG guy wrong about deposits, and that's only because they don't have to stoop to that level, their word should have been enough and they're giving into the public too much.
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He doesn't make sense in the article. First he says he doesn't understand the basis for having a security deposit and then he says koreans had problems with their opponents not showing up on time for their matches.
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On August 17 2011 15:01 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:58 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:53 vertical101 wrote:
the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con Boxer is the model of conduct. Speculation: This is why Slayers have sponsors - sponsors only want to negotiate with professional teams. I can also speculate that reason why only MLG, IPL, and GOM has sponsors. Sponsor only wants to negotiate with professional leagues.
I'm not saying that the NASL is professional/unprofessional - I'm not defending them in the way they run the tournament. I'm also saying that they have much to improve.
The crux of my argument is that the korean teams that violated the contracts are unprofessional. And they are doing so because they feel that by negotiating collectively, they can get a better deal.
And I point out that Slayers is a professional team.
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On August 17 2011 14:58 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:53 vertical101 wrote:
the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con Boxer is the model of conduct. Speculation: This is why Slayers have sponsors - sponsors only want to negotiate with professional teams.
i think this korean teams plan this before contract and make a drama. NASL trying to communicate with these teams for the past few months but they are no where to be found. only person they talk to is Mr.chae who is not part of this any team or SC2con
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It sounds like the Korean players found the event produced poorly and overall pretty amateurish. I can understand not wanting to pay a steep security deposit for a league that hasn't indicated it has any staying power.
It doesn't sound as much like a list of demands, but rather that the Korean teams are saying, "hey, just run this thing well and treat the players like MLG and GSL treat their players, and we will come play". Yet people are acting like they are demanding for something more than that. What are they demanding more of than what MLG offers? Not coincidentally, there seems to be a fantastic relationship between the MLG and the Korean teams.
I've also seen several people say "the prize $ should be enough to come" but also say "you need the security deposit to ensure that players will show up for games". Can't you see the disconnect there? If the prize money is enough than there is no need for a security deposit.
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On August 17 2011 15:04 vertical101 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:58 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:53 vertical101 wrote:
the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con Boxer is the model of conduct. Speculation: This is why Slayers have sponsors - sponsors only want to negotiate with professional teams. i think this korean teams plan this before contract and make a drama. NASL trying to communicate with these teams for the past few months but they are no where to be found. only Mr.chae who is not part of this any team or SC2con
Standard Korean business tactic of "hide the leader." Which is a cultural difference, yes, but it's such a backwards one that it really will affect how international companies do business with them if they don't change it.
NASL has some things to learn from this, but Korean team managements have even more.
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On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:
[quote]
...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it.
grow up. Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either. They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory.
well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will.
the results speak for themselves
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On August 17 2011 13:06 QurtStarcraft wrote:
Why again should NASL pay for everything? I really think they are asking way too much and why don't Koreans complain about every other tournament?
Pretty much every other tournament simply invites them and pay for their flights. While other players and even casters pay their own way. They're spoiled now.
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On August 17 2011 15:02 shizzycs wrote:
Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season.
So what, NASL should bend over backwards and do whatever the koreans want just to get them back in? If they did that, I for one wouldn't watch NASL anymore because I wouldn't respect a league that caves in to a certain select grp even if they are the best. It cheapens the integrity of the whole league if there are players getting special treatment.
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On August 17 2011 15:03 Eko200 wrote:
He doesn't make sense in the article. First he says he doesn't understand the basis for having a security deposit and then he says koreans had problems with their opponents not showing up on time for their matches.
The problem is that they had to wait for the other player.
"When the opponent was not on time, [players] had to wait for more than two hours many times," he explained, "This is why the players were stressed. They did not want to show low performances compared to their usual play. In days where GSL or GSTL followed right after, players couldn’t show their full ability due to not feeling well and exhaustion."
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On August 17 2011 15:07 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:02 shizzycs wrote:
Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season. So what, NASL should bend over backwards and do whatever the koreans want just to get them back in? If they did that, I for one wouldn't watch NASL anymore because I wouldn't respect a league that caves in to a certain select grp even if they are the best. It cheapens the integrity of the whole league if there are players getting special treatment.
Why are you acting like the Koreans are making crazy demands? There is a great relationship between the GSL and MLG. It sounds like the Korean teams are asking NASL to treat them like the MLG treats them - which is footing the travel bill, and not being run in such an amateurish way. It cheapens the integrity of a league when they treat their players like that.
They are just asking for travel to be paid for (to the Grand Finals, which every other tournament does), and for the league to be run with an element of professionalism. Have you heard the Koreans complain about MLG or Dreamhack in this way? Those tournaments are run much better.
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On August 17 2011 15:03 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:01 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:58 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:53 vertical101 wrote:
the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con Boxer is the model of conduct. Speculation: This is why Slayers have sponsors - sponsors only want to negotiate with professional teams. I can also speculate that reason why only MLG, IPL, and GOM has sponsors. Sponsor only wants to negotiate with professional leagues. NASL has sponsors and nothing they did in this matter was unprofessional, except perhaps releasing receipts to prove the TIG guy wrong about deposits, and that's only because they don't have to stoop to that level, their word should have been enough and they're giving into the public too much.
Season 2 is here and i am still trying to figure out who is sponsoring. Please enlighten me if you know. There is reason why people feel NASL is unprofessional and wanting to back out of it.
Edit: i am done. going to sleep 2am..
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Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake.
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On August 17 2011 15:06 Dante_A_ wrote:
It sounds like the Korean players found the event produced poorly and overall pretty amateurish. I can understand not wanting to pay a steep security deposit for a league that hasn't indicated it has any staying power.
It doesn't sound as much like a list of demands, but rather that the Korean teams are saying, "hey, just run this thing well and treat the players like MLG and GSL treat their players, and we will come play". Yet people are acting like they are demanding for something more than that. What are they demanding more of than what MLG offers? Not coincidentally, there seems to be a fantastic relationship between the MLG and the Korean teams.
I've also seen several people say "the prize $ should be enough to come" but also say "you need the security deposit to ensure that players will show up for games". Can't you see the disconnect there? If the prize money is enough than there is no need for a security deposit.
Well I disagree with your first statement, i think NASL HAS proven to have a lot of staying power, they had nearly record-breaking viewership rates on a consistent basis for the course of 3 months.
They have some things to change but that's not something you treat with suspicion...it's pretty much a given that any company improves over time and experience. NASL improved drastically over their first season alone, so it's not like they have shown that they don't listen to critique.
I do see the list of small demands that have broke the camel's back as Milkies said, but I guess my problem is then that it seems in the negotiations they didn't bring them up, they only brought up travel expenses and security deposits. And not even themselves directly, but through 3rd parties and such.
I think this could have been handled a lot better on the Koreans' side as well. If they felt so badly and so angry about these small mistakes NASL made, the natural course of actions is to pull an NASL member aside, or message him later and say, "You know what, you did this, this is not good, because ____."
Instead, none of the team managers messaged NASL even once about the matter. Which led to a lot of miscommunication between NASL and the mediators which might have led to the Koreans feeling "attacked" by NASL. The thing is, it's frustrating trying to negotiate when you don't even know who you're negotiating with and you can't speak with them directly about what they want. (I know this personally) When you go through several people, it's like playing telephone and something always gets lost, or is delayed because you have to go back and clarify what the original person meant and blah blah blah. I totally understand NASL's frustration on that, it's a horrible way to negotiate and to express feedback.
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NASL just being unprofessional once again. Why I'm not surprised?
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4 out of 5 SotG casters agree that that korean teams acted unprofessionally and the 5th was JP (the host) who brilliantly avoided broching an opinion at all. Why should any weight be put on a coaches requests on a league IN WHICH HE WAS IN NO WAY INVOLVED?
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Rather than them calling it a "mistake" for NASL to not fully accommodate them, I wish they would just say "unfortunately it's too expensive for NASL too accommodate us, so we can't participate."
It's not really anyone's fault.
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On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves
It's not an opinion thing.
If they were being inflammatory and bashing, it would be evident to everybody reading.
The fact that you consider your impression of the post an "opinion" already says a lot about whether your view is right or not.
I only ask that you or these so called many people who agree with you to SHOW where nasl bashed/insulted/attacked the Koreans.
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On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves
You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem
And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are.
A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so.
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That's exactly what im saying, do whatever it takes to get top koreans in your league. People want to see the best players, i personally think not watching just because some players are getting better treatment (nothing to do with sc2 games at all) is total bullshit. More people would watch than wouldnt.
On August 17 2011 15:07 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:02 shizzycs wrote:
Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season. So what, NASL should bend over backwards and do whatever the koreans want just to get them back in? If they did that, I for one wouldn't watch NASL anymore because I wouldn't respect a league that caves in to a certain select grp even if they are the best. It cheapens the integrity of the whole league if there are players getting special treatment.
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How do you get more "official" than TL? xD
It's officially the most kickass site EVER.
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On August 17 2011 15:11 D0N32 wrote:
Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake.
Read the article.
The season 2 qualifiers were before the grand finals event. "Waiting until the last moment to pull out" is NASL spin. Deceitful amateurs running NASL, like Xeris.
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korean is good at creating drama.
foreigner is good at hyping,announcement - very useful talent toi have
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On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves
This was clearly an unprofessional move only on behalf of the Korean teams. Korean's said the NASL was unprofessional and cited the time that was spent waiting in between games. The NASL attempted to combat that directly by making the players put up a security deposit, which the Koreans refused to make. This is clearly the Korean teams attempting to play hardball and push around a foreign league. They just pushed too far with their demands and the NASL was forced to separate. The Koreans now think that they can just sit back and watch the NASL fail, because of the lack of talent. Weather or not they succeed without the best players in the world is yet to be seen.
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On August 17 2011 15:18 shizzycs wrote:That's exactly what im saying, do whatever it takes to get top koreans in your league. People want to see the best players, i personally think not watching just because some players are getting better treatment (nothing to do with sc2 games at all) is total bullshit. More people would watch than wouldnt. Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:07 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:02 shizzycs wrote:
Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season. So what, NASL should bend over backwards and do whatever the koreans want just to get them back in? If they did that, I for one wouldn't watch NASL anymore because I wouldn't respect a league that caves in to a certain select grp even if they are the best. It cheapens the integrity of the whole league if there are players getting special treatment.
But how can one do that if the team managers won't even talk to you about their concerns? None of the team managers messaged NASL even once about the matter. It's frustrating trying to negotiate when you don't even know who you're negotiating with and you can't speak with them directly about what they want.
Why are all these people who withdrew during negotiations were hiding behind this veil of "We don't know who made the decision, we don't know anything," yet when it's appropriate they come out with statements acting like thy sat down with NASL and talked? They didn't.
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On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait.
Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing.
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On August 17 2011 15:20 epik640x wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:11 D0N32 wrote:
Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake. Read the article. The season 2 qualifiers were before the grand finals event. "Waiting until the last moment to pull out" is NASL spin. Deceitful amateurs running NASL, like Xeris.
Wrong. The S2 qualifiers were before the finals, that part is right. But the signing of the contracts was AFTER, WAY AFTER the finals were over. And then it was like a week and half after that when they pulled out, once S2 had already started filming. So yeah it was waiting till the last moment.
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On August 17 2011 15:02 shizzycs wrote:
Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season.
I think the problem people are running into is this:
- NASL does have legitimate things they need to address
- You don't run your business well if you aren't responsive to concerns, you won't last long
- The Korean teams *signed* contracts THEN backed out after attempting to force a renegotiation, which NASL was willing to do within their budget
The Koreans, understanding their value to the league, decided to push the issue of renegotiation after signing the contracts. NASL actually was willing to accommodate them really far, but they kept expecting more and pushing harder. They didn't expect NASL to hold the line at a specific spot (especially since they'd already started filming). They did, so NASL simply announced why they were going to have to push back the start of Season 2.
It seems for a lot of the Koreans, the default mode of negotiating is to go for brinkmanship. That's not a good thing in an expanding market. In a closed or declining market, it's useful, but the more the market expands, the more you'll get left behind doing that.
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On August 17 2011 15:23 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:20 epik640x wrote:On August 17 2011 15:11 D0N32 wrote:
Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake. Read the article. The season 2 qualifiers were before the grand finals event. "Waiting until the last moment to pull out" is NASL spin. Deceitful amateurs running NASL, like Xeris. Wrong. The S2 qualifiers were before the finals, that part is right. But the signing of the contracts was AFTER, WAY AFTER the finals were over. And then it was like a week and half after that when they pulled out, once S2 had already started filming. So yeah it was waiting till the last moment.
Did you say WAY AFTER?
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On August 17 2011 15:21 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait. Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing.
White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket and did not demand anything. That's why I consider him to be a real professional.
Same with Boxer, who looked at the contract, stated simply that it was not for him, and withdrew in a timely manner, making his separation from NASL on a positive note. That's why he too is someone I consider a professional.
Everybody else? I see no professionals. The way they treated negotiations, the way they weigh contracts...it's horrible.
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I really don't give a shit anymore this is a turning he said she said argument anyway. It was unprofessional for the NASL to post without having all the facts straight, but it was also unprofessional for the korean teams to back out of contracts.
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Lost tons of respect for korean teams over this.
Seriously the tournament is lucrative enough, they shouldn't expect to be treated like a golden egg being woooo'd into playing.
If you don't like it don't sign contracts, don't come, just don't expect the tournament to bend to your every will.
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On August 17 2011 15:21 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait. Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing.
Not when Europeans don't have to play matches at 4AM. That's a pretty big difference. Between choosing to wait deep into the night and lose sleep while risking poor performance in GSL (their primary concern) the following day, dropping out of NASL seems perfectly sensible.
Right now there probably isn't enough cash on both sides to make traveling/accomodations perfect for the Koreans. That's not really an issue. It's up to NASL whether they wish to retain Korean players by going the extra mile or not.
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Yeah this interview doesn't change a thing. We already knew all of this, and so did the koreans when they signed the season 2 contracts.
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On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Why do people embarrass themselves with posts like these? If you actually bothered to pay attention, you'd know the answer to this question was, "Yes." There are numerous tweets, photos and videos of people like John (the Translator) and Trevor (TorcH) picking up foreign players from the airport and driving them to the Gom House.
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In my opinion, it is just their different views on Starcraft 2 generally.
The Koreans really view it as a sport, and would like their players to be treated like sportsmen. While the rest of the world, is still new to Starcraft 2 as an esport treat sc2 as a gaming event.
Thus, what the Koreans EXPECT in their contracts, is what all sportsmen taking part in a foreign event is obligated to. And these expectations might not be what the NASL organizers see as an obligation.
Sc2 as an esport is relatively new, its a global sport, not a cultural thing like in scbw. This is rightfully the "beta" stage of the sport, which contributes to the varies misconceptions on both the Korean and NASL parts. Both have to learn to strike a balance in all this expectations for esports to grow.
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On August 17 2011 15:32 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:21 Elefanto wrote:On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait. Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing. Not when Europeans don't have to play matches at 4AM. That's a pretty big difference. Between choosing to wait deep into the night and lose sleep while risking poor performance in GSL (their primary concern) the following day, dropping out of NASL seems perfectly sensible. Right now there probably isn't enough cash on both sides to make traveling/accomodations perfect for the Koreans. That's not really an issue. It's up to NASL whether they wish to retain Korean players by going the extra mile or not.
Why is this still being brought up? It's been explained at least 100 times that hours have been changed to be better for Koreans AFTER speaking to Korean players. They wouldn't be playing at 4 am.
Not that it matters, every job has an expectation and a downside and that's theirs. That's like a truck driver complaining that they have to drive long distances. It's a complaint valid for the average person but it's kind of part of the job description.
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So, if the flight + accomodation really was over 2000$, which I believe could be the case considering how short term PuMa and Alive had to book their flights, then I understand their frustration. Being greeted by a 80$ bill first thing in a foreign country is not nice either. As well as idling on the venue for 7 hours. Scheduling as well, waiting 1 to 2 hours is just too long and frustrating if it has to be done at 4am. That they had to get up at 4am, well they knew that beforehand, so it shouldn't be a big issue.
edit: but I think that breaching a black on white contract outweights all of this nuisances, no matter how major they were. so before an apology from the side of NASL, an apology from the teams who broke their contracts should come first!
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On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Why would the GSL pick up a foreign player if the player hasn't earned it? Some of the Koreans went through a long qualifier (Puma) to get there and they had to wait through a whole night for their opponents to show up week after week. And yes, they are fucking rock stars because they are on top of the e-sports scene. People demand their participation but no tears would be shed if an undeserving foreigner doesn't get his undeserved invite to the GSL. If you or the NASL doesn't like it, you guys can try doing it without them. Good luck trying to find viewers without having the best players.
The NASL was so poorly handled that it really doesn't deserve to raise any of their demands. If they don't accept the Korean's terms then so be it. It was not worth paying for any of their crappy services anyway.
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On August 17 2011 15:34 MudkipSEA` wrote:
In my opinion, it is just their different views on Starcraft 2 generally.
The Koreans really view it as a sport, and would like their players to be treated like sportsmen. While the rest of the world, is still new to Starcraft 2 as an esport treat sc2 as a gaming event.
Thus, what the Koreans EXPECT in their contracts, is what all sportsmen taking part in a foreign event is obligated to. And these expectations might not be what the NASL organizers see as an obligation.
Sc2 as an esport is relatively new, its a global sport, not a cultural thing like in scbw. This is rightfully the "beta" stage of the sport, which contributes to the varies misconceptions on both the Korean and NASL parts. Both have to learn to strike a balance in all this expectations for esports to grow.
esports is imba.
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Thanks for speaking out Coach Choi!
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On August 17 2011 15:32 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:21 Elefanto wrote:On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait. Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing. Not when Europeans don't have to play matches at 4AM. That's a pretty big difference. Between choosing to wait deep into the night and lose sleep while risking poor performance in GSL (their primary concern) the following day, dropping out of NASL seems perfectly sensible. Right now there probably isn't enough cash on both sides to make traveling/accomodations perfect for the Koreans. That's not really an issue. It's up to NASL whether they wish to retain Korean players by going the extra mile or not.
What.
Since when are the timezones for the USA and for EU the same?
I can't find the airing times, but last season NASL aired in the night for EU.
And i explicitly remember an interview with socke after a match where he was sitting in a
bathrobe, because it was in the middle of the night.
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On August 17 2011 15:24 epik640x wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:23 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:20 epik640x wrote:On August 17 2011 15:11 D0N32 wrote:
Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake. Read the article. The season 2 qualifiers were before the grand finals event. "Waiting until the last moment to pull out" is NASL spin. Deceitful amateurs running NASL, like Xeris. Wrong. The S2 qualifiers were before the finals, that part is right. But the signing of the contracts was AFTER, WAY AFTER the finals were over. And then it was like a week and half after that when they pulled out, once S2 had already started filming. So yeah it was waiting till the last moment. Did you say WAY AFTER?
Dude don't focus on a adjective, please focus on what I actually said. The part about it being the last moment when they pulled out.
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On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it?
i dunno, maybe on www.nasl.tv ?
which until now still show the Korean as season 2 player ?
http://www.nasl.tv/News/Article/20110727nasl-season-2-players
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Am i the only one that finds the "traditional values" comment fairly insulting? They're treating koreans as well or better than everyone else and they say its poor for the players? How about the value of keeping your promises, in this case stated clearly in the form of contracts. Korea is starting to reek of a dying scene trying to hold on to what life it has, which is tragic given the amount of talent they produce. It might be time to wake up and play ball with the rest of the world.
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On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:
[quote]
does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so.
"...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..."
"...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..."
"...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..."
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On August 17 2011 15:41 sirchatters wrote:
Am i the only one that finds the "traditional values" comment fairly insulting? They're treating koreans as well or better than everyone else and they say its poor for the players? How about the value of keeping your promises, in this case stated clearly in the form of contracts. Korea is starting to reek of a dying scene trying to hold on to what life it has, which is tragic given the amount of talent they produce. It might be time to wake up and play ball with the rest of the world.
Yes koreans are seriously delusional. I always had a inkling about it but this really cements it for me to be honest. They honestly feel like they should be treated significantly better than the rest of the world by the way they are responding.
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The teams are the ones who should take care of everything. Don't sign up if you can't afford to accommodate for your players.
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Has nasl fixed their format at all? Seems like a huge deal
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On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..."
I don't see how any of what you just posted is inflammatory. Was that your intent or... ?
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NASL....bottom line is each Korean needs his own personalized red carpet and each should get a 5 star suite in the best hotel America can give. Also if u want the competition to grow, a bit of Caviar is always nice because it motivates players to actually play. If u don't give someone all they want, why on earth would he play..it's so silly...come on NASL..make ppl want to play for money....is it that hard? Maybe throw a extra cozy pillow for each sit, made from baby seal skin and give them a bottle of baby panda tears...i mean....u get that everywere but at NASL
Also u should hire some slaves for Korean players because from all this traveling they are barely able to walk alone, let alone play the game. Even better, hire some ppl to play for them. This will make them feel much more relaxed and the online+competition experience would greatly improve.
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This is the most bs I've heard yet from Korea. I would love to see a single receipt showing that a Korean participating in the NASL finals paid for anything other than food during their oh so laborious 3 day trip to the US to grab the majority of the prize money, then leave and complain about it to the rest of the Korean community without saying anything to the NASL. The online qualifier scheduling is the only thing that I am slightly sympathetic towards (even though I personally would wake up at 4 in the morning to participate in a freeroll tournament to gain entry to a 100k tournament).
Expecting the NASL to apologize is even more childish. They have absolutely nothing to apologize for and the Korean players clearly have not communicated with the NASL staff about the problems they had during the finals. They are essentially saying, "we were treated badly during the finals and there is nothing you can do to convince us to come back except apologize and meet all of our demands."
If this is way the majority of professional SC2 Korean pro-gamers actually expect to be treated then I am really disappointed and have lost respect for the Korean teams. I hope they can figure out a way to work things out.
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On August 17 2011 15:29 esotericc wrote:
Lost tons of respect for korean teams over this.
Seriously the tournament is lucrative enough, they shouldn't expect to be treated like a golden egg being woooo'd into playing.
If you don't like it don't sign contracts, don't come, just don't expect the tournament to bend to your every will.
yeah i dont know what the korean teams were expecting, really unproffesional
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Does any other league pay for flight and accomodation of all players?
Does GSL pay (the i would guess rather limited) travel costs for Koreans to the GOM studio?
Does GSL pay flight and accomodation costs for foreigners giving Code A qualifiers a shot?
Does random tennis tournaments around the world pay flight and accomodation of all players?
Does FIFA pay teams' flight and accomodation costs at World Cup?
Does it work like that anywhere in sports or esports?
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Isn't blatantly breaking legally binding contracts supposed to be a big deal? Or is that just not how it's done in Korea?
Also kind of strange that we're getting the opinion of a coach for a team that never was at the tournament, never intends to go the the tournament, and is only privy to hear-say from select other Koreans. Clearly the most balanced and impartial person to provide a Korean opinion on the NASL.
I'd have a lot more respect if we got a statement from the Koreans through these mythical "official channels," until then I don't really see where they're coming from from a business perspective.
And why is Teamliquid, THE site for English SC2 news, not an official channel? Did someone at the TL headquarters forget to sign the Korean-mandated "official channel" papers this month?
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On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..."
1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you??
2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration.
3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated.
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On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about.
Agree with this, 100%. I find it absurd that Koreans expect the NASL (or any other tournament) to be accountable for the random shit their players need to live and move around in an area. The NASL should assist the teams to do this, but this is the role of the teams and managers, not the tournament. Let the NASL worry about running the tournament smoothly, and let the teams worry about their players checked into a hotel.
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On August 17 2011 15:34 MudkipSEA` wrote:
In my opinion, it is just their different views on Starcraft 2 generally.
The Koreans really view it as a sport, and would like their players to be treated like sportsmen. While the rest of the world, is still new to Starcraft 2 as an esport treat sc2 as a gaming event.
Thus, what the Koreans EXPECT in their contracts, is what all sportsmen taking part in a foreign event is obligated to. And these expectations might not be what the NASL organizers see as an obligation.
Sc2 as an esport is relatively new, its a global sport, not a cultural thing like in scbw. This is rightfully the "beta" stage of the sport, which contributes to the varies misconceptions on both the Korean and NASL parts. Both have to learn to strike a balance in all this expectations for esports to grow.
I think this is a pretty neutral post I can get behind. For NASL, I imagine a lot of things the koreans perceive as unprofessional is really a matter of money. When you have 32 people with expenditures, 80 dollars a head ends up costing a lot for an organization that doesn't have huge sponsorship.
Besides all this, these kinds of things really come down to communication and it doesn't seem like there was much discussion about what everyone's expectations should be aside from what's in the contract. Whose fault that is I can't say, but personally I'm on NASL's side.
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On August 17 2011 15:53 Kreb wrote:
Does any other league pay for flight and accomodation of all players?
Does GSL pay (the i would guess rather limited) travel costs for Koreans to the GOM studio?
Does GSL pay flight and accomodation costs for foreigners giving Code A qualifiers a shot?
Does random tennis tournaments around the world pay flight and accomodation of all players?
Does FIFA pay teams' flight and accomodation costs at World Cup?
Does it work like that anywhere in sports or esports?
Maybe the koreans think they are special or something!
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I have not delved into Korean culture much at all, but I know, as a person of Chinese culture, for a fact that everybody who doesn't understand the "Korean traditional values" thing does not understand the Korean system of respect at all. This is so much more a cultural thing that I'd never expect an American to understand, and it's showing now.
The only thing Korea has done wrong is leave NASL after they signed the contract, which is probably as a result of misunderstanding the terms of agreement..still Korea's fault anyways. But beyond that..
Why is Korea wrong for demanding more? They treat their guests far better than NASL ever has, and they have a right to ask for accommodation and decline invitations if they don't want them as well. They didn't demand anything, they expressed displeasure, asked for more, were not given something to their liking, and declined, albeit after they signed the contract.
You guys are forgetting that just as they are not obligated to special lucrative extras, we are not obligated to see them persevere through what they perceive as disrespectful and probably too unprofitable.
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On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..."
1) Well they did. If it's a spade then call it a spade.
2) That's just a statement of fact. "They don't think ___" is just explaining their view. It's not saying "Oh those horrible Koreans don't even think they have to pay." that's a misinterpretation that results when oyu add emotion to an otherwise unemotional sentence.
3) That's just saying what they felt about their offer. It's like saying, "I recommended a red jacket because I thought red looked the best."
Seriously if that's the best anyone can do...then that alone says a lot.
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"..To top things off, the single elimination playoff bracket was a best of three format – losing just two maps out of three after a lengthy nine weeks of qualifying would knock the players out of the tournament, leaving them feeling like their journey and the cost of the trip were in vain."
I think they really should add double elimination since they had enough casters. If for instance, Incontrol + Gretorp were casting, Tastosis could have also casted the loser bracket or winners bracket. Day9 was also present so they could have switched each caster around for breaks,etc. A long flight from Europe or Korea to lose a single elimination pretty much sucks after nine weeks of qualifying for the Grand Finals.
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On August 17 2011 15:36 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:32 Oktyabr wrote:On August 17 2011 15:21 Elefanto wrote:On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait. Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing. Not when Europeans don't have to play matches at 4AM. That's a pretty big difference. Between choosing to wait deep into the night and lose sleep while risking poor performance in GSL (their primary concern) the following day, dropping out of NASL seems perfectly sensible. Right now there probably isn't enough cash on both sides to make traveling/accomodations perfect for the Koreans. That's not really an issue. It's up to NASL whether they wish to retain Korean players by going the extra mile or not. Why is this still being brought up? It's been explained at least 100 times that hours have been changed to be better for Koreans AFTER speaking to Korean players. They wouldn't be playing at 4 am. Not that it matters, every job has an expectation and a downside and that's theirs. That's like a truck driver complaining that they have to drive long distances. It's a complaint valid for the average person but it's kind of part of the job description.
I'm not defending their move to pull out after signing the contract. That's obviously unprofessional. I'm just stating why, from the Korean's perspective, is NASL not in any way a good tournament to participate in.
You can go on telling them that it's their job and take it/leave it - it doesn't matter. They still have the GSL to play in - with way more prestige, money, and significance to their sponsors. It's entirely irrelevant to discuss whether Koreans should put in extra effort in carrying out this job of theirs.
The issue here is whether it's a smart business decision at the end of the day for NASL to not try harder to accomodate the Koreans. Having more Koreans *generally* raises the viewership count. Maybe they have done their math and decided long ago that their business model can continue without the Koreans - great for them. Hopefully that's the case.
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the rest of the world are at fault. if they actually defeated the Koreans out of getting into the playoffs at all, THERE WOULD BE NO KOREANS LEFT TO COMPLAIN.
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On August 17 2011 16:00 Lamphead wrote:
I have not delved into Korean culture much at all, but I know, as a person of Chinese culture, for a fact that everybody who doesn't understand the "Korean traditional values" thing does not understand the Korean system of respect at all. This is so much more a cultural thing that I'd never expect an American to understand, and it's showing now.
The only thing Korea has done wrong is leave NASL after they signed the contract, which is probably as a result of misunderstanding the terms of agreement..still Korea's fault anyways. But beyond that..
Why is Korea wrong for demanding more? They treat their guests far better than NASL ever has, and they have a right to ask for accommodation and decline invitations if they don't want them as well. They didn't demand anything, they expressed displeasure, asked for more, were not given something to their liking, and declined, albeit after they signed the contract.
You guys are forgetting that just as they are not obligated to special lucrative extras, we are not obligated to see them persevere through what they perceive as disrespectful and probably too unprofitable.
I agree with you for the most part, but I think a large reason why this became a huge problem is that the Koreans initiated negotiations but didn't follow up on them, didn't seem to take them seriously, didn't provide a clear contact for the negotiations (in fact, hid the people behind the negotiations).
I really truly feel that if team managers had gone to NASL directly, things would have ended differently and many Koreans would still be participating.
INstead, they decided to sign contracts, then band together and pressure the remaining to band or be shamed, told someone to tell someone who got Mr.Chae to translate to tell NASL that they have concerns, and then responded to the concerns 15 days later, 2 days after filming started.
Pretty pathetic attempt at negotiating. It's not a simple matter of expressing displeasure and asking for more, because they actually never did that.
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On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:[quote] http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated.
1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason.
2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them.
3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark.
This isn't about right or wrong(regarding how inflammatory NASL's announcement is). It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread.
See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory.
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On August 17 2011 16:03 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:36 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 15:32 Oktyabr wrote:On August 17 2011 15:21 Elefanto wrote:On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait. Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing. Not when Europeans don't have to play matches at 4AM. That's a pretty big difference. Between choosing to wait deep into the night and lose sleep while risking poor performance in GSL (their primary concern) the following day, dropping out of NASL seems perfectly sensible. Right now there probably isn't enough cash on both sides to make traveling/accomodations perfect for the Koreans. That's not really an issue. It's up to NASL whether they wish to retain Korean players by going the extra mile or not. Why is this still being brought up? It's been explained at least 100 times that hours have been changed to be better for Koreans AFTER speaking to Korean players. They wouldn't be playing at 4 am. Not that it matters, every job has an expectation and a downside and that's theirs. That's like a truck driver complaining that they have to drive long distances. It's a complaint valid for the average person but it's kind of part of the job description. I'm not defending their move to pull out after signing the contract. That's obviously unprofessional. I'm just stating why, from the Korean's perspective, is NASL not in any way a good tournament to participate in. You can go on telling them that it's their job and take it/leave it - it doesn't matter. They still have the GSL to play in - with way more prestige, money, and significance to their sponsors. It's entirely irrelevant to discuss whether Koreans should put in extra effort in carrying out this job of theirs. The issue here is whether it's a smart business decision at the end of the day for NASL to not try harder to accomodate the Koreans. Having more Koreans *generally* raises the viewership count. Maybe they have done their math and decided long ago that their business model can continue without the Koreans - great for them. Hopefully that's the case.
Oh I understand that, but I'm saying, a lot the concerns that they had and what made NASL a difficult league to play in were addressed and changed for Season 2, making it much more Korean-friendly.
So I don't think "NASL is too difficult to play in" was a reason for withdrawal, unless they didn't get the memo that these things were changed, which is a possibility because the Koreans chose not to speak or negotiate with NASL directly.
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I see wrong things and bad manner on both sides.
Sadly those two sides just look at the mistakes of the other!
Well, just have to hope for the best! NASL is/was the first attempt do do such a big league for SC(2) outside of Korea! They will be getting better (hopefully)!
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On August 17 2011 15:53 Kreb wrote:
Does any other league pay for flight and accomodation of all players?
Does GSL pay (the i would guess rather limited) travel costs for Koreans to the GOM studio?
Does GSL pay flight and accomodation costs for foreigners giving Code A qualifiers a shot?
Does random tennis tournaments around the world pay flight and accomodation of all players?
Does FIFA pay teams' flight and accomodation costs at World Cup?
Does it work like that anywhere in sports or esports?
GOM does provide a free training house for foreigners. In fact once you're in Korea, GOM will pay for all expenses minus food as long as you intend to fight in the GSL or GSTL and meet the skill requirements (done via application). GOM is pretty generous.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Foreigner_House
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Standard Korean business tactic of "hide the leader." Which is a cultural difference, yes, but it's such a backwards one that it really will affect how international companies do business with them if they don't change it.
What you are describing there is what is commonly known as a democracy lol
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There is nothing wrong with a security deposit. Even with it there were players who no-showed matches and just left a bad taste in the fans' mouths. It's disrespectful to the league trying to grow when players just ditch their matches for whatever reason and that is what a security deposit is supposed to help. Hell, everything has a security deposit. Welcome to real life.
Second, the Koreans want everything provided for them, because according to them, NASL is nothing without them. Oh really? Let's see how many fans you keep getting when you have that attitude. Yeah I respect how well Koreans play and how much training they put in, but just having great starcraft 2 matches isn't going to bring in the fans. If this were the case, baseball would only have 2 teams, yankees and red sox. Basketball would have 2 or 3 teams, and each of the sports would be dead by now.
Fans aren't paying money to see Koreans get treated like kings. Fans pay money for great production, and a great live tournament experience. I can't really even see what NASL did wrong in providing travel stipends that can cover the costs of flights, etc, and providing transport to and from the site. If I'm competing in a major tournament and get treated that well, I would always come back and be extremely surprised at how well someone is treating me, being just a player.
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I am facepalming at a lot of the comments here, they seem to be just flame posts based purely off ignorant beliefs. I feel like NASL shouldn't have come out with a thread bashing the Koreans for not cooperating, and instead should have discussed it first and released the post on an official channel. Also, it seems as if Koreans are having a hard time communicating with NASL, perhaps if communications were better than accommodations would be accounted for, considering $2000 is way more than enough. But I could totally see the problem coming off a plane into a foreign country with nobody to really help. Seems very unprofessional on NASL's behalf.
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On August 17 2011 16:04 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:00 Lamphead wrote:
I have not delved into Korean culture much at all, but I know, as a person of Chinese culture, for a fact that everybody who doesn't understand the "Korean traditional values" thing does not understand the Korean system of respect at all. This is so much more a cultural thing that I'd never expect an American to understand, and it's showing now.
The only thing Korea has done wrong is leave NASL after they signed the contract, which is probably as a result of misunderstanding the terms of agreement..still Korea's fault anyways. But beyond that..
Why is Korea wrong for demanding more? They treat their guests far better than NASL ever has, and they have a right to ask for accommodation and decline invitations if they don't want them as well. They didn't demand anything, they expressed displeasure, asked for more, were not given something to their liking, and declined, albeit after they signed the contract.
You guys are forgetting that just as they are not obligated to special lucrative extras, we are not obligated to see them persevere through what they perceive as disrespectful and probably too unprofitable. I agree with you for the most part, but I think a large reason why this became a huge problem is that the Koreans initiated negotiations but didn't follow up on them, didn't seem to take them seriously, didn't provide a clear contact for the negotiations (in fact, hid the people behind the negotiations). I really truly feel that if team managers had gone to NASL directly, things would have ended differently and many Koreans would still be participating. INstead, they decided to sign contracts, then band together and pressure the remaining to band or be shamed, told someone to tell someone who got Mr.Chae to translate to tell NASL that they have concerns, and then responded to the concerns 15 days later, 2 days after filming started. Pretty pathetic attempt at negotiating. It's not a simple matter of expressing displeasure and asking for more, because they actually never did that.
yeah, that was pretty dumb of the Koreans. Koreans are still more in the wrong..Personally I think what happened was that they assumed NASL had realized what a terrible time Korea had mainly in traveling here and accommodations in the first season and they assumed they would solve all these problems with a cherry on top (because that would be the Korean way of doing things) (They might have even thought it would be rude to demand more, ironically). Obviously NASL would only respond to direct complaint, as American customer service goes, but I feel like Korea didn't realize that.
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On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there.
I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out.
This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory.
Bad example. There is nothing faulty about Huk leaving Liquid.
Perhaps there is some things that are inherently inflammatory about the NASL post because they are inherently negative....like Koreans turning down a fairly considerate and the best that NASL can offer...this is not the NASL's fault...it is a purely objective fact, but it can trigger negative emotions in people because many people can respond by saying, "Koreans demand too much."
Basically like emotionally charged objective statements if that makes sense...but that's due to the situation not due to the post or the wording itself.
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MVP coach isnt being very truthful in the interview
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lol NASL did bash the Koreans. They handled them leaving highly unprofessionally. What the announcement should've said is "We regret to inform you that the Korean teams will be withdrawing from NASL 2 due to conflict of interests. We are working hard to get them back for NASL 3."
Simple. No drama caused. But no they had to bash them.
Koreans don't want to deal with unprofessional associations. MLG handles their shit. They pick the players up themselves. They don't set up a shuttle service and tell them to pay $80 right when they get off the plane. That says "We don't value you as a player enough to pick you up in person," and the Koreans didn't like that. MLG picks the players up themselves, and they treat them well. I'll bet you that they'd have covered the Koreans that paid to fly over in terms of being picked up.
Accommodate the players from the start. Don't tell them "We're picking you up, give us $80," right off the get go. You cover that small bit of transport yourselves without paying and watch how quickly they'll like you. Don't shove it in their face that they have to pay. Pay that for them and it shows you value them as a competitor.
And then be sure to fix your flawed format. Bo5 or Double Elim. Don't make the players wait so long for matches or fly over on a 15 hour flight just so they can lose in an hour. Fix your tournament format and they'll come. It's not that hard.
It's not big things, it's little things. NASL can fix these things. I hope they will so that you all can see Koreans dominating another tournament again.
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people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar..
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I think this is actually a really positive article/translation. Much better than the PlayXP article which made SC2Con seem like they are making decisions for the players.
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On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar..
do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no?
In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem?
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NASL, so disappointing. I gotta say that Coach Choi makes a lot of sense on his allegations, he cant be lying, so bad. Mr.Choi said "poor operation" when asked about NASL production, thats sad. Things r not looking good these days for this League, hope they dont just chicken out and disappear but rather step it up and bring us an Awesome NASL Season 2. Looking forward to it ^^
e-Sports FTW!!!
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On August 17 2011 16:09 Lamphead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:04 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 16:00 Lamphead wrote:
I have not delved into Korean culture much at all, but I know, as a person of Chinese culture, for a fact that everybody who doesn't understand the "Korean traditional values" thing does not understand the Korean system of respect at all. This is so much more a cultural thing that I'd never expect an American to understand, and it's showing now.
The only thing Korea has done wrong is leave NASL after they signed the contract, which is probably as a result of misunderstanding the terms of agreement..still Korea's fault anyways. But beyond that..
Why is Korea wrong for demanding more? They treat their guests far better than NASL ever has, and they have a right to ask for accommodation and decline invitations if they don't want them as well. They didn't demand anything, they expressed displeasure, asked for more, were not given something to their liking, and declined, albeit after they signed the contract.
You guys are forgetting that just as they are not obligated to special lucrative extras, we are not obligated to see them persevere through what they perceive as disrespectful and probably too unprofitable. I agree with you for the most part, but I think a large reason why this became a huge problem is that the Koreans initiated negotiations but didn't follow up on them, didn't seem to take them seriously, didn't provide a clear contact for the negotiations (in fact, hid the people behind the negotiations). I really truly feel that if team managers had gone to NASL directly, things would have ended differently and many Koreans would still be participating. INstead, they decided to sign contracts, then band together and pressure the remaining to band or be shamed, told someone to tell someone who got Mr.Chae to translate to tell NASL that they have concerns, and then responded to the concerns 15 days later, 2 days after filming started. Pretty pathetic attempt at negotiating. It's not a simple matter of expressing displeasure and asking for more, because they actually never did that. yeah, that was pretty dumb of the Koreans. Koreans are still more in the wrong..Personally I think what happened was that they assumed NASL had realized what a terrible time Korea had mainly in traveling here and accommodations in the first season and they assumed they would solve all these problems with a cherry on top (because that would be the Korean way of doing things) (They might have even thought it would be rude to demand more, ironically). Obviously NASL would only respond to direct complaint, as American customer service goes, but I feel like Korea didn't realize that.
Agreed. There seems to be an issue of miscommunication but also an issue of clashing of cultures.
I think that's reflected in several ways, because, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard from my Korean friends that Koreans do not take contracts to be completely binding. In addition, it is customary that people who make decisions and people who deal in negotiations are not the one and the same, whereas in US/Europe they typically are.
I feel like NASL expected that the people they were talking to knew the situation and had the power and influence to make decisions, but didn't...and when they wanted to talk to the person in charge, they were denied that right. This led to a lot of frustration on both sides I feel, and a lot of miscommunication resulted from middle-men.
I understand some of the Korean complaints...not time or server because those have been addressed, but the waiting around time, and why they overall got a negative impression. But I feel that, that's more on the Korean's side to make the effort to express. So I feel that, even though it may not be customary in their culture, the team manager should have directly talked to NASL in a timely manner.
I really don't get the feeling that NASL consists of these big jerks that go, "AHAHAHA WE DON'T CARE." I'm sure if the concerns/feedback was expressed, they would have listened to it.
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On August 17 2011 16:09 Xaerkar wrote:
I am facepalming at a lot of the comments here, they seem to be just flame posts based purely off ignorant beliefs. I feel like NASL shouldn't have come out with a thread bashing the Koreans for not cooperating, and instead should have discussed it first and released the post on an official channel. Also, it seems as if Koreans are having a hard time communicating with NASL, perhaps if communications were better than accommodations would be accounted for, considering $2000 is way more than enough. But I could totally see the problem coming off a plane into a foreign country with nobody to really help. Seems very unprofessional on NASL's behalf.
What part of "Xeris was personally at the airport the entire day to personally greet every Korean participant with a translator" don't you understand? It is obvious that there was a lack of communication between the Korean players and the NASL especially when the Korean players decided to tell the NASL they weren't playing a few days before they were scheduled to play after they had signed a contract saying they would play.
*edit
Why does this rumor that all the Koreans payed 80$ for a shuttle service still exist? There have been multiple people from the NASL that have posted saying this is not true.
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On August 17 2011 16:10 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:
[quote]
from the NASL post
[quote]
straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.
The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory. Bad example. There is nothing faulty about Huk leaving Liquid. Perhaps there is some things that are inherently inflammatory about the NASL post because they are inherently negative....like Koreans turning down a fairly considerate and the best that NASL can offer...this is not the NASL's fault...it is a purely objective fact, but it can trigger negative emotions in people because many people can respond by saying, "Koreans demand too much." Basically like emotionally charged objective statements if that makes sense...but that's due to the situation not due to the post or the wording itself.
Whether someone is at fault has nothing to do with whether a thread is inflammatory.
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Until NASL changes their management (starting with Xeris), they will always be seen as a bunch of amateurs. They failed at everything there was to fail in Season 1 and I expect the same in Season 2.
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Why is Coach Choi and other coaches expecting accomodations? Like CatZ said, if they want to compete in foreign tournaments, they should put their own money towards it to show their respect. That said, I do realize the Gom house is very helpful for foreigners, but still, you have sponsors for a reason. I like that Koreans can come to MLGs but I don't like that MLG has to pay them to come here.
For NASL, they run such an amateur production and tournament (late on games, stream issues, horrible interviewers hired) I would not want to be associated with it.
It's like Coach Choi said, I have nothing against NASL as well. It's just that right now they are not professional enough. Ask anyone to compare NASL to GSL and they choose GSL (despite the recent Gom security hack. Ugh.)
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if the top 16 players at the playoffs were from the NA, that would seriously lower travel costs. Seems like the NA players need to help the NASL out a bit more..
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On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar..
Well, consider this, like the PainUser situation. NASL loses several hundred dollars for each hour that a player doesn't show up without warning, because the staff have to sit there on hand waiting to see if the player shows up.
When you consider it like that, it makes sense why there is a deposit. It makes sure that the other side will either show up or say ahead of time that they won't be showing up. Whether you morally agree or not, money is a big motivator. If someone stands to lose money, they are more likely to abide by rules.
I think that's the goal of the deposits...to make sure players abide by scheduling rules. If they do, they get the deposit back .
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On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem?
the point of my post was not to make you think about why the deposit is included in NASL. the point of my post was to get you to see that even for you, something that you think is fundamentally and logically sound like paying for your meal after you receive the food would be perceived as disrespectful if that changed.
my point is you don't know how Koreans think of the deposit. They think of it more as a show of distrust from both sides. Not to mention they did not return the money immediately. If you don't understand the Korean culture, which you or I can't, then I would refrain from bashing them. This goes for the entire dispute in general.
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wow i didnt realize the Koreans who lost at Ro16 were actually losing 500 dollars...thats pretty bad =/
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On August 17 2011 16:15 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:10 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:
[quote]
Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory. Bad example. There is nothing faulty about Huk leaving Liquid. Perhaps there is some things that are inherently inflammatory about the NASL post because they are inherently negative....like Koreans turning down a fairly considerate and the best that NASL can offer...this is not the NASL's fault...it is a purely objective fact, but it can trigger negative emotions in people because many people can respond by saying, "Koreans demand too much." Basically like emotionally charged objective statements if that makes sense...but that's due to the situation not due to the post or the wording itself. Whether someone is at fault has nothing to do with whether a thread is inflammatory.
Yes, actually there is. Because if somebody is at fault, it affects how people perceive statements, and they are likely to perceive them in a more negative way, and are thus likelier to think that the wording itself is causing them to feel that rather than the situation.
E.g. let's say Koreans did not sign contracts. Then first of all, it would have been before the season started filming. So instead the post would have read, "The Koreans have chosen not to participate in Season 2 because of some disagreements about contracts."
See how that automatically seems less inflammatory? That's because the situation itself is less negative. The wording follows the same style as the original post.
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Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest.
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On August 17 2011 15:53 Kreb wrote:
Does any other league pay for flight and accomodation of all players?
Does GSL pay (the i would guess rather limited) travel costs for Koreans to the GOM studio?
Does GSL pay flight and accomodation costs for foreigners giving Code A qualifiers a shot?
Does random tennis tournaments around the world pay flight and accomodation of all players?
Does FIFA pay teams' flight and accomodation costs at World Cup?
Does it work like that anywhere in sports or esports?
1) No one said anything about All of the players, this is specifically about helping non-native language speaking people in a foreign country.
2) The GSL provides full transportation to and from the Gom studios for those living in the Gom House, aka foreigners. MLG does the same for the korean players who are invited, often times booking hotels right next to the venues to prevent confusion, and having assigned staff to pick up players from the airport. (@MLG Anaheim, players were greeted by a Limosine)
3) The GSL pays for the flight for those who qualify to Code A via the MLG exchange program, and the Gom House is 100% free rent for those who are invited, so accommodations are taken care of. Food however is not, but is understandable. MLG does the same for the korean players who are invited, providing them with transportation expenses and rooms.
4)What does this have to do with how sc2 tournaments are run. And yes, at some of the majors, the top seeded players are provided full accommodations at the venues themselves including room and board.
5) I dunno do they? Do you know if they do or not?
6) Yes, see above.
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This article really didnt help the koreans argument. All i heard was, "NASL isn't as good as the GSL. It is not in Korea, thus it is inferior and we do not have to support it."
You cant expect something of this magnitude to be perfect the first time around. I got the feeling they(NASL) were trying to improve and still are. A $2000 Travel stipend Korean players were offered was more than enough to offer incentive as most foreign players aren't offered an incentive to go to Korea.
Its Greed and Selfishness at its best....
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They're now telling the NASL theys hould apologize for what they've done so far? No...I completely disagree with what the Koreans are doing now, they're trying to save face way too badly. The requests they ask are to be treated like royalty as opposed to the way that esports events in the foreign scene have been for 15 years.
I'd rather them not play than have all these demands begged for.
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On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest.
Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
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On August 17 2011 16:19 Lamphead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem? the point of my post was not to make you think about why the deposit is included in NASL. the point of my post was to get you to see that even for you, something that you think is fundamentally and logically sound like paying for your meal after you receive the food would be perceived as disrespectful if that changed. my point is you don't know how Koreans think of the deposit. They think of it more as a show of distrust from both sides. Not to mention they did not return the money immediately. If you don't understand the Korean culture, which you or I can't, then I would refrain from bashing them. This goes for the entire dispute in general.
Then don't sign up. duh.
Implicit in signing a contract for season 1 and 2 is you agree with it.
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On August 17 2011 16:12 b_unnies wrote:
MVP coach isnt being very truthful in the interview
Do you want to clarify?
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On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there.
I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out.
This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory.
1) Koreans: We want this, this, and this, if we don't get them, we are pulling out. Call it negotiations or a threat, its semantics at that point. Either way still not inflammatory, very blunt yes.
2) Not a lie in any sense whatsoever or misleading at all. The koreans didn't want to pay the deposit, even the coach of MVP said so. Again blunt and to the point.
3) There is nothing that statement that could arouse hostility unless the person reading it is looking for the slightest reason to get angry. Which I think is what is happening. I think people like you are looking for the tinniest reason to get mad because you feel that NASL has insulted the koreans.
Honestly at this point I feel like NASL could have come out and said in their original statement, "Hey its ALL our fault that the koreans aren't coming. Blame us, they did nothing wrong" and you would still fault NASL just because A) people are looking to smash NASL, whether its justified or not and B) The Koreans didn't get what they wanted
Don't get me wrong, NASL isn't innocent in this whole thing. There alot of things they could have handled better but the original statement and its wording isn't one of them.
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I think this whole farce came about because the Korean team managements wanted to push the envelope of how they are being treated in foreign competitions. If the foreign players are getting the same treatments as what the Korean team managers demanded in Korea, for an event that is similar to the NASL, then it's not unreasonable to expect the same from NASL, except there may be a lot more Koreans compete in NASL than there are foreigners competing in Korea (maybe?).
Also the Korean team managers need to understand the key role of self-sustenance of competitors in the West. In NZ, even members of some of our national teams need to get part jobs just to support themselves during training and raise money to make it to oversea competitions. The Korean team managers talk about respect, but how about pay some respect to their host, i.e., NASL, to begin with huh?
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
Then the question become why do foreigners have money and Korean don't. Koreans have had a much longer history in e sports than foreigners.
Perhaps they should ask themselves that question and change accordingly instead of demanding money from tournaments that are already offering money on top of pretty giant prize pools.
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On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem?
Fact: Deposit was introduced to hold players responsible who cause trouble.
Fact: the only players who caused trouble were those outside Korea
Fact: from a Korean point of view, such a deposit is insulting and doubts the professionalism of the players
no matter who is at fault, it is easy to see how this conflict came to happen
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On August 17 2011 15:53 Kreb wrote:
Does any other league pay for flight and accomodation of all players?
Does GSL pay (the i would guess rather limited) travel costs for Koreans to the GOM studio?
Does GSL pay flight and accomodation costs for foreigners giving Code A qualifiers a shot?
Does random tennis tournaments around the world pay flight and accomodation of all players?
Does FIFA pay teams' flight and accomodation costs at World Cup?
Does it work like that anywhere in sports or esports?
Dont compare this to actual sports.
Those National Teams have millions upon millions of dollars backing them. Tennis players have so much money behind them. That's like trying to bring up Messi and compare him to Puma being like "Messi can pay for his stuff why can't Puma?" That's just ignorant bringing in players that make millions play soccer and tennis into a conversation about Korean teams who at times struggle to eat.
Koreans don't have money. Foreigners do. It's as simple as that.
On August 17 2011 16:29 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Then the question become why do foreigners have money and Korean don't. Koreans have had a much longer history in e sports than foreigners. Perhaps they should ask themselves that question and change accordingly instead of demanding money from tournaments that are already offering money on top of pretty giant prize pools.
History doesn't bring sponsors. BW is still the game in Korea. The sponsors are there. Not in SC2.
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NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast
ok broadcast was terrible... i cant image how horrible it was for the players then
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On August 17 2011 16:27 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:
[quote]
from the NASL post
[quote]
straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.
The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory. 1) Koreans: We want this, this, and this, if we don't get them, we are pulling out. Call it negotiations or a threat, its semantics at that point. Either way still not inflammatory, very blunt yes. 2) Not a lie in any sense whatsoever or misleading at all. The koreans didn't want to pay the deposit, even the coach of MVP said so. Again blunt and to the point. 3) There is nothing that statement that could arouse hostility unless the person reading it is looking for the slightest reason to get angry. Which I think is what is happening. I think people like you are looking for the tinniest reason to get mad because you feel that NASL has insulted the koreans. Honestly at this point I feel like NASL could have come out and said in their original statement, "Hey its ALL our fault that the koreans aren't coming. Blame us, they did nothing wrong" and you would still fault NASL just because A) people are looking to smash NASL, whether its justified or not and B) The Koreans didn't get what they wanted Don't get me wrong, NASL isn't innocent in this whole thing. There alot of things they could have handled better but the original statement and its wording isn't one of them.
Ugh, if NASL had done that there would still be a slew of comments saying, "Oh they're just trying to get sympathy!" and equally negative remarks. The thing is if you want to see something negative and offensive, you will. That's how the mind works.
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
So because they are poor everyone should pay for them?
How about you start searching sponsors, start to search for ways to get money
like streaming or coaching?
Did root whine to MLG that they don't have sponsors, requesting their expenses get paid? Don't make me laugh.
It's not like the west is a fountain of money.
Many teams / clans / players have to actively search for sponsors or ways to get to money.
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lol asking for apologize.. bullshit.they are the one who should apologize for breaking the contract,delaying the S2,and trying to kill NASL league (remember what kespa did to gom?)
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt.
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On August 17 2011 16:30 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem? Fact: Deposit was introduced to hold players responsible who cause trouble. Fact: the only players who caused trouble were those outside Korea Fact: from a Korean point of view, such a deposit is insulting and doubts the professionalism of the players no matter who is at fault, it is easy to see how this conflict came to happen
Also a fact: Americans tend to do things across the board, meaning no special treatment. Yes, it was mostly the foreigners who failed to show up on time for matches, thus making a need for security deposits. HOWEVER, because American culture is one where equality and evenness are praised, that rule has to be applied to ALL the players.
I think we have all spent a long time talking about how Korean culture should be considered, but this is a case where American culture needs to be considered by the Koreans. After all, it is an American business run by Americans in America. This is how law, contracts and such work in the US. I think in most cases, a contract saying X group has to pay but Y group doesn't would be an illegal contract in the US, which is probably why NASL didn't even consider it.
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On August 17 2011 16:29 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Then the question become why do foreigners have money and Korean don't. Koreans have had a much longer history in e sports than foreigners. Perhaps they should ask themselves that question and change accordingly instead of demanding money from tournaments that are already offering money on top of pretty giant prize pools.
I do not think that foreign teams have more money per se. Some might, some do not.
But in Korea, a team is mainly (financially) responsible for training the players, they organize a team house and coaches. The team takes care that their players are top notch and the tournaments who wants them to play has to pay for flight and hotel if they want the top players to participate in live events.
Outside Korea, a team is mainly (financially) responsible of flying their players to tournaments.
This is only the financial side, there are other main differences between foreign and Korean teams, for example I bet you would've heard an apology from the team if one of their players decide to blow a showmatch by attacking his own command center at the beginning of the game and throwing angry comments at the organizer who organized the prize money after he asked him what just happened.
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On August 17 2011 16:33 vertical101 wrote:
lol asking for apologize.. bullshit.they are the one who should apologize for breaking the contract,delaying the S2,and trying to kill NASL league (remember what kespa did to gom?)
Wasn't Kespa, the Teams pulled their players out.
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Zlasher wrote:
They're now telling the NASL theys hould apologize for what they've done so far? No...I completely disagree with what the Koreans are doing now, they're trying to save face way too badly. The requests they ask are to be treated like royalty as opposed to the way that esports events in the foreign scene have been for 15 years.
I'd rather them not play than have all these demands begged for.
I agree, NASL went through TL, the community website to clear this up after the Koreans decided to use brinksmanship, bringing it to the final hour until they decided to pull out of NASL seeding. I am glad that NASL tried to meet their demands, but bending over backwards to please them isn't fair to the Americans and the Europeans who pay their way in also.
I wish this drama didn't have to go down and we could just see some good games.
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On August 17 2011 12:51 Pieismyign wrote:
why cant nasl rent a car and pick them up from an airport....
they want them to reserve hotel rooms, reserve the cars, reserve the tickets for planes, get transportation, and the food.. etc ^^
its a lot of hassle but thats what they usually get from other tournaments, so they expect nasl to have all of that ^^
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On August 17 2011 16:35 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:29 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Then the question become why do foreigners have money and Korean don't. Koreans have had a much longer history in e sports than foreigners. Perhaps they should ask themselves that question and change accordingly instead of demanding money from tournaments that are already offering money on top of pretty giant prize pools. I do not think that foreign teams have more money per se. Some might, some do not. But in Korea, a team is mainly (financially) responsible for training the players, they organize a team house and coaches. The team takes care that their players are top notch and the tournaments who wants them to play has to pay for flight and hotel if they want the top players to participate in live events. Outside Korea, a team is mainly (financially) responsible of flying their players to tournaments. This is only the financial side, there are other main differences between foreign and Korean teams, for example I bet you would've heard an apology from the team if one of their players decide to blow a showmatch by attacking his own command center at the beginning of the game and throwing angry comments at the organizer who organized the prize money after he asked him what just happened.
Thank you for taking the time to write an intelligent comment. I feel like I have gained additional insight.
However, there does seem to be less of a sponsor base in Korea atm, at least for SC2, in which case, Koreans should be striving to get the attention of global sponsors in order to survive. One way to do that is to participate in foreign tournaments.
Otherwise, they may risk losing their players to foreign teams who are thriving off of foreign sponsors.
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:
Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
How is this irrelevant you dont think all the players from the eastern EU lack money ? they do but you know what they sucked it up and didnt broke any contract or demanded more money?
its unprofessional and it comes out like the Koreans think they special and they should be treated different then any other player
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It was a first time league. Giving suggestions to improve it is totally reasonable. Asking for an apology as a third party is less so.
NASL can be a perfectly good league without the Koreans. If they don't have the budget for an extravagant international event, they can scale it back to being the top foreigner tournament.
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On August 17 2011 16:31 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. So because they are poor everyone should pay for them? How about you start searching sponsors, start to search for ways to get money like streaming or coaching? Did root whine to MLG that they don't have sponsors, requesting their expenses get paid? Don't make me laugh. It's not like the west is a fountain of money. Many teams / clans / players have to actively search for sponsors or ways to get to money.
lol don't compare MLG to NASL. MLG is a actually well done league unlike NASL. Also in NASL you play for weeks to get to the Finals. Then the Koreans have to fly 15 hours to possibly get knocked out in under an hour. MLG you can sign up without even have competed before. You just sign up, get a carpool, and go. That's what I have done for years at MLG. I do believe that most of ROOT lived in America or Canada. They can carpool.
On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt.
I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night.
Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans.
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On August 17 2011 16:33 vertical101 wrote:
lol asking for apologize.. bullshit.they are the one who should apologize for breaking the contract,delaying the S2,and trying to kill NASL league (remember what kespa did to gom?)
KeSPA only made the GOM Tournaments unofficial (meaning games played there did not count towards record and elo points). Many teams then saw GOM's classic tournaments as a waste of time since it wasn't a sanctioned tournament and pulled their players out. This was because KeSPA demanding a licensing fee and GOM refused to pay it.
In this situation, the teams (and players) were unhappy with the experience provided by the tournament and said that they wanted changes or that they would not continue with another season. While it sucks for the audience, it's an understandable situation.
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
You don't know that. None of these companies are public nor salaries. Koreans manage to afford team houses unlike foreigners where guys do nothing but game and everything is taken care of so they arnt hurting.
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On August 17 2011 16:39 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:
Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. How is this irrelevant you dont think all the players from the eastern EU lack money ? they do but you know what they sucked it up and didnt broke any contract or demanded more money? its unprofessional and it comes out like the Koreans think they special and they should be treated different then any other player
This is true. White-Ra spent $1500 of his own money to pay for his ticket. He even did additional work for NASL (the showmatch). Never did I hear him complain.
This is generally why he is considered to be one of the most professional players and is rarely if ever involved in any dramatic disputes. His age and history may have given him insight into how to act businesslike, and I think a lot of hte newer players, who may be more talented then him, should strive to emulate him because it's people like white-ra that are people sponsors look for...people who are well-liked and marketable.
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On August 17 2011 16:27 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:
[quote]
from the NASL post
[quote]
straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.
The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory. 1) Koreans: We want this, this, and this, if we don't get them, we are pulling out. Call it negotiations or a threat, its semantics at that point. Either way still not inflammatory, very blunt yes. 2) Not a lie in any sense whatsoever or misleading at all. The koreans didn't want to pay the deposit, even the coach of MVP said so. Again blunt and to the point. 3) There is nothing that statement that could arouse hostility unless the person reading it is looking for the slightest reason to get angry. Which I think is what is happening. I think people like you are looking for the tinniest reason to get mad because you feel that NASL has insulted the koreans. Honestly at this point I feel like NASL could have come out and said in their original statement, "Hey its ALL our fault that the koreans aren't coming. Blame us, they did nothing wrong" and you would still fault NASL just because A) people are looking to smash NASL, whether its justified or not and B) The Koreans didn't get what they wanted Don't get me wrong, NASL isn't innocent in this whole thing. There alot of things they could have handled better but the original statement and its wording isn't one of them.
The way I see it,
1) A threat's a threat, it's not inflammatory.
2) I feel that anybody who doesn't see this as inflammatory is very short sighted. It basically screams to me as "don't bother with what they're saying!! Look at our line of reasoning!!" The Koreans came up with what they wanted. Everybody knows what a deposit is, what it means, and that it'll be paid back. It sounds as if they didn't think the Koreans knew what a deposit is. There's nothing factually wrong there, but that doesn't mean the way it's presented is not inflammatory.
3) I just see it as again they're saying... "ignore what the Koreans want, we're getting screwed on this here". In fact, the facts can be argued to be twisted here. If the prize is 40k, you can't really see the travel expense as 2k, considering 1k is out of the prize itself. If the travel expense is 2k, the prize will be 39k instead.
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On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans.
I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams.
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On August 17 2011 16:30 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem? Fact: Deposit was introduced to hold players responsible who cause trouble. Fact: the only players who caused trouble were those outside Korea Fact: from a Korean point of view, such a deposit is insulting and doubts the professionalism of the players no matter who is at fault, it is easy to see how this conflict came to happen
Koreans did not show up to 100% of their games and therefore some koreans forfeited some of their depsits. Your agruement on how they are vastly superior ethically and therefore not bound to contracts which they have signed after reading and be full aware of all the conditions of the contract is moot.
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Oh yeah so could MC pay for his own, and I bet he would given choice, good investment - but this was done on a top down basis so he can't. Why was it done like that with all the collusion of team managers/owners is what I'm waiting to find out.
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On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams.
At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams.
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I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff.
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Let's look at things in more of a timeline.
1)Korean teams >all< withdraw from Nasl in the last moments before a new season, most likely purposely. For a culture of people who talk about professionalism and amateurs this was already a low blow. They played hardball. It's not like the timing of their withdraw was an accident, they waited on purpose to have a good hand and use it against NASL.
To wait to withdraw until the last moments as leverage is an extremely low, dirty blow. We often call people who make moves like that "scum" here in America. The NASL isn't some super power for esports, its an extremely new, relatively small group of people who had a cool idea and are trying to make it work. When the Korean teams signed the contracts for NASL during season 1, they knew what they were getting into. On the spot NASL offered to raise the stipend to 1k, even 2k. In other words they were willing to reach out and meet the Koreans part way. But apparently in Korea there should be absolutely no chance of even losing a penny while having the high, potential reward of a fortune, even when dealing with a relatively low key other party.
2)The season is about to start. NASL has to say >SOMETHING< to the fans and chose to do so somewhat clearly, openly as to what happened. They can't just delay it without statement.
3)Korean coaches exploit the fact that there was miscommunication on both sides, point fingers at NASL, while saying NASL is trying to blame them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this concept remind you of two children pointing fingers at eachother.
4)We the fan/player base suffer, Korea profits, for now.
Thanks Korea!
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On August 17 2011 16:45 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:27 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:
[quote]
Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory. 1) Koreans: We want this, this, and this, if we don't get them, we are pulling out. Call it negotiations or a threat, its semantics at that point. Either way still not inflammatory, very blunt yes. 2) Not a lie in any sense whatsoever or misleading at all. The koreans didn't want to pay the deposit, even the coach of MVP said so. Again blunt and to the point. 3) There is nothing that statement that could arouse hostility unless the person reading it is looking for the slightest reason to get angry. Which I think is what is happening. I think people like you are looking for the tinniest reason to get mad because you feel that NASL has insulted the koreans. Honestly at this point I feel like NASL could have come out and said in their original statement, "Hey its ALL our fault that the koreans aren't coming. Blame us, they did nothing wrong" and you would still fault NASL just because A) people are looking to smash NASL, whether its justified or not and B) The Koreans didn't get what they wanted Don't get me wrong, NASL isn't innocent in this whole thing. There alot of things they could have handled better but the original statement and its wording isn't one of them. The way I see it, 1) A threat's a threat, it's not inflammatory. 2) I feel that anybody who doesn't see this as inflammatory is very short sighted. It basically screams to me as "don't bother with what they're saying!! Look at our line of reasoning!!" The Koreans came up with what they wanted. Everybody knows what a deposit is, what it means, and that it'll be paid back. It sounds as if they didn't think the Koreans knew what a deposit is. There's nothing factually wrong there, but that doesn't mean the way it's presented is not inflammatory. 3) I just see it as again they're saying... "ignore what the Koreans want, we're getting screwed on this here". In fact, the facts can be argued to be twisted here. If the prize is 40k, you can't really see the travel expense as 2k, considering 1k is out of the prize itself. If the travel expense is 2k, the prize will be 39k instead.
1) It could very well have been a threat. But putting it in a statement like that will inflame people, both general readers and Korean teams. Maybe Korean teams deserved it, but when you say "they threatened us" you can expect some emotions to flare.
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On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams.
Again the question becomes why, and the statement becomes "Korean should do whatever the foreigners are doing." Foreigners are certainly not complaining or demanding.
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Meh, we have to many international starleagues now, NASL should just become high quality national starleague instead, we don't have any of those.
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On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams.
Which is the exact point that I was making.
People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad.
Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course).
They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare.
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On August 17 2011 16:52 chipman wrote:
Let's look at things in more of a timeline.
1)Korean teams >all< withdraw from Nasl in the last moments before a new season, most likely purposely. For a culture of people who talk about professionalism and amateurs this was already a low blow. They played hardball. It's not like the timing of their withdraw was an accident, they waited on purpose to have a good hand and use it against NASL.
To wait to withdraw until the last moments as leverage is an extremely low, dirty blow. We often call people who make moves like that "scum" here in America. The NASL isn't some super power for esports, its an extremely new, relatively small group of people who had a cool idea and are trying to make it work. When the Korean teams signed the contracts for NASL during season 1, they knew what they were getting into. On the spot NASL offered to raise the stipend to 1k, even 2k. In other words they were willing to reach out and meet the Koreans part way. But apparently in Korea there should be absolutely no chance of even losing a penny while having the high, potential reward of a fortune, even when dealing with a relatively low key other party.
2)The season is about to start. NASL has to say >SOMETHING< to the fans and chose to do so somewhat clearly, openly as to what happened. They can't just delay it without statement.
3)Korean coaches exploit the fact that there was miscommunication on both sides, point fingers at NASL, while saying NASL is trying to blame them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this concept remind you of two children pointing fingers at eachother.
4)We the fan/player base suffer, Korea profits, for now.
Thanks Korea!
That one angry overexaggerated rant you got there. You're like the "koreans can do no wrong" but in reverse. It's not as simple as that and you probably know it deep down.
Edit: I started typing out a response but it's nothing that hasn't been said before and i'm guessing it won't make a difference anyway.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 17 2011 16:52 chipman wrote:
Let's look at things in more of a timeline.
1)Korean teams >all< withdraw from Nasl in the last moments before a new season, most likely purposely. For a culture of people who talk about professionalism and amateurs this was already a low blow. They played hardball. It's not like the timing of their withdraw was an accident, they waited on purpose to have a good hand and use it against NASL.
To wait to withdraw until the last moments as leverage is an extremely low, dirty blow. We often call people who make moves like that "scum" here in America. The NASL isn't some super power for esports, its an extremely new, relatively small group of people who had a cool idea and are trying to make it work. When the Korean teams signed the contracts for NASL during season 1, they knew what they were getting into. On the spot NASL offered to raise the stipend to 1k, even 2k. In other words they were willing to reach out and meet the Koreans part way. But apparently in Korea there should be absolutely no chance of even losing a penny while having the high, potential reward of a fortune, even when dealing with a relatively low key other party.
2)The season is about to start. NASL has to say >SOMETHING< to the fans and chose to do so somewhat clearly, openly as to what happened. They can't just delay it without statement.
3)Korean coaches exploit the fact that there was miscommunication on both sides, point fingers at NASL, while saying NASL is trying to blame them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this concept remind you of two children pointing fingers at eachother.
4)We the fan/player base suffer, Korea profits, for now.
Thanks Korea!
Couldn't have said it better myself, except to add that I feel that Koreans, after all of this backlash, have gotten a little sensitive and defensive.
I don't think the original post was attacking anyone, but due to the backlash, I feel like Korean coaches feel like they have to "clear their name" and one way to do that is to point the finger at NASL and exploit miscommunications (even if they are mostly the Korean side's fault for not using proper methods of negotiation).
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On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare.
Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know.
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If they really had a malicious intent, they could've stayed in NASL, show up to their matches but play like ****. Hey, they fulfilled their contract! woohoo!
Then it would be:
Fans: WTF!! Why are you throwing matchs?
Players: Cause we don't want to play in the grand final.
Fans: Then why didn't you withdraw and let others play?
Players: OK let me time travel and do that.
Fans: WTF!! Why are you withdrawing?
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On August 17 2011 13:50 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:46 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:43 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2011 13:40 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:37 ELA wrote:On August 17 2011 13:34 Milkis wrote:On August 17 2011 13:31 FairForever wrote:On August 17 2011 13:30 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
Haha. Milkis comes to save the day That's hardy "saving the day" - I can't take the "Haha." seriously until he actually explains what it means. There was a lot of talk about the shuttle service by the Koreans. But let's say, "providing" the service isn't always everything. Care to explain what they expect of a shuttle service? Is it not only a question of transport from A to B? Sometimes the shuttle doesn't go quite to B Your cryptic posts are little more than annoying T_T. Can't you just explain the matter or explain nothing? Haha, sorry. 1) There was talk (that was reflected on an article), how Koreans had to pay 80 dollars for the shuttle service when they were picked up. I do not know how accurate this part of the statement is. 2) When they were dropped off, they were dropped off at the domestic section of the airport. The international section was at the other end. You can imagine how they felt. Basically it's little "amateur" mistakes like these that built up that gave Koreans that kind of impression overall. It's small, but there was *a lot* of small things at NASL. Xeris noted earlier that the $80 was from the travel stipend. To me $80 per person seems excessive when you note the fact that all the Koreans traveled together (or many did) In regards to #2 I agree that is amateurish and annoying, but I wouldn't consider that a major roadblock. If that is the main concern Choi is referring to I think it is a bit overblown considering how big it seems from the interview. Even if the $80 dollars was from the travel stipend, when you have NASL staff come pick up the players and then the staff just tells the players to pay up.... that's just completely opposite of what Koreans expect that it's hilarious. You don't pick up someone at the airport (and pretend that they are your guest) and tell the guest to pay for the shuttle ride... The impression I got was that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not one "big" thing that did NASL in, it's the little things that piled up that became that major road block. Essentially, little things like that signals quite a bit about NASL's quality. That's all I'll say on the matter. Not trying to start a fight, as I thought I'm just sharing something that does give a little bit more insight into what Coach Choi was talking about.
None of my business friends are Korean, we're all Americans, and that's not really a cultural problem. That's just lacking some business tact. If that's a reoccurring theme of players' interactions with NASL's organization and policy, I'm not surprised that they were turned off. However, it's a bit surprising to turn down the chance at decent money. It definitely sounds like it must have been a bunch of details for them to renege on their contracts.
It reminds me of a conversation my friend and I had about whether to fire an employee. Reasonably bright, top college education, nice guy, but zero attention to detail. When you have people like this, you need to constantly review their work, and it's a pain in the ass, and you know your clients are going to eventually notice.
As a consumer, it bugs me when I can think of things that would immediately improve a product or service, and that it would require little more than some effort on the part of an employee or management. I did feel like that with NASL a few times.
eg. I'm sure we all wondered why they just didn't tell us that a walkover was happening that day, so we wouldn't have to sit there for an hour through players we didn't care about. Sure, they get extra viewers in the short term, but it sure doesn't buy much loyalty.
Still, it absolutely doesn't justify what the Koreans did in reneging on a signed contract. This is the epitome of bad business. I'm tired right now, but god this is wrong, bad, immoral, wtf. Well you get the point . It's really so wrong, and for NASL to conduct their PR in a classy manner, given this event, they deserve a whole lot of credit for that.
This is just my opinion, and I haven't followed this drama closely, so I'm not all too vested in who's right and wrong specifically. I will say, it would've been nice it they parted ways similarly to how Boxer and NASL did. "Hey, things are right for us, maybe we'll do this again sometime in the future." This way a dialogue on suggested improvements don't have to carry the tone of a PR battle.
Anyways, I just hope looking back, this will just be remembered as a bump in the road and not some cliff. I really want the NA scene to continue to develop.
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or maybe, the koreans legitimately wanted to participate in the NASL and upon submitting their requests for negotiation during the contract signing they hoped that all would get resolved before the season would start, but since the negotiations fell through they felt they had no choice but to withdraw? It probably has little to do with them trying to forcibly make NASL look bad by withdrawing last minute and more to do with them hoping things would work out amicably for both sides, and hence why they stayed till the last moment to make sure that nothing else could be worked out.
Jeezus, this korean hatred seems to have come out of no where this past week.
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On August 17 2011 17:00 Kazeyonoma wrote:
or maybe, the koreans legitimately wanted to participate in the NASL and upon submitting their requests for negotiation during the contract signing they hoped that all would get resolved before the season would start, but since the negotiations fell through they felt they had no choice but to withdraw? It probably has little to do with them trying to forcibly make NASL look bad by withdrawing last minute and more to do with them hoping things would work out amicably for both sides, and hence why they stayed till the last moment to make sure that nothing else could be worked out.
Jeezus, this korean hatred seems to have come out of no where this past week.
I don't think anyone hates Koreans, just their management.
If what you say is the case, one would have expected them to have put in more effort into negotiations, instead of telling a guy to tell a guy to tell Mr.Chae to tell NASL they have concerns, only 15 days before the season, and responding with a boycott 2 days after filming starts.
It doesn't sound like they bothered to put in too much effort into negotiating at all.
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On August 17 2011 17:00 Kazeyonoma wrote:
or maybe, the koreans legitimately wanted to participate in the NASL and upon submitting their requests for negotiation during the contract signing they hoped that all would get resolved before the season would start, but since the negotiations fell through they felt they had no choice but to withdraw? It probably has little to do with them trying to forcibly make NASL look bad by withdrawing last minute and more to do with them hoping things would work out amicably for both sides, and hence why they stayed till the last moment to make sure that nothing else could be worked out.
Jeezus, this korean hatred seems to have come out of no where this past week.
Thats the thing... the contracts were ALREADY SIGNED.
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On August 17 2011 16:57 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:52 chipman wrote:
Let's look at things in more of a timeline.
1)Korean teams >all< withdraw from Nasl in the last moments before a new season, most likely purposely. For a culture of people who talk about professionalism and amateurs this was already a low blow. They played hardball. It's not like the timing of their withdraw was an accident, they waited on purpose to have a good hand and use it against NASL.
To wait to withdraw until the last moments as leverage is an extremely low, dirty blow. We often call people who make moves like that "scum" here in America. The NASL isn't some super power for esports, its an extremely new, relatively small group of people who had a cool idea and are trying to make it work. When the Korean teams signed the contracts for NASL during season 1, they knew what they were getting into. On the spot NASL offered to raise the stipend to 1k, even 2k. In other words they were willing to reach out and meet the Koreans part way. But apparently in Korea there should be absolutely no chance of even losing a penny while having the high, potential reward of a fortune, even when dealing with a relatively low key other party.
2)The season is about to start. NASL has to say >SOMETHING< to the fans and chose to do so somewhat clearly, openly as to what happened. They can't just delay it without statement.
3)Korean coaches exploit the fact that there was miscommunication on both sides, point fingers at NASL, while saying NASL is trying to blame them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this concept remind you of two children pointing fingers at eachother.
4)We the fan/player base suffer, Korea profits, for now.
Thanks Korea! That one angry overexaggerated rant you got there. You're like the "koreans can do no wrong" but in reverse. It's not as simple as that and you probably know it deep down.
No. It's pretty obvious that NASL *could have* done certain things better, or they wouldn't be in this fix. But that's pretty cute how you so quickly stooped low enough to, judging from the content of a single post, try and make a correlation between it and the poster's actual mentality and thought process in life as a whole.
You obviously don't know a thing about me or where I'm coming from, that's what happens when you shoot your mouth off without even considering that not everyone is speaking from the same perspective you are.
Quite honestly I didn't like NASL season 1. It was wayyy to drawn out, confusing, some of the matches seemed unimportant and they weren't live. Given their circumstances however I was willing to give them a shot(unlike you after having read my post) and paid out of my pocket for it and they did a good enough job, though not enough for me to pay for a second season.
I've worked enough jobs and been around enough to know that if you're going to quit from an obligation you need to say so ahead of time. You can't just not show up or wait until a critical time in the business to suddenly cut the business loose. That's extremely childish and more important extremely amateurish and unprofessional, which was my point.
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On August 17 2011 16:59 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare. Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know.
Which is why we shouldn't bash Koreans for asking for more when they are the most likely to need the support. Foreign teams have sponsors unlike Korean teams. And yes SlayerS has Intel but they more than likely pulled out cause BoxeR wasn't pleased with the format.
NASL should give the players that make the finals financial support if they need it. Possibly even ask the fans for a little help as well. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind paying another $1. That shit would add up quite quickly.
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On August 17 2011 17:00 Kazeyonoma wrote:
or maybe, the koreans legitimately wanted to participate in the NASL and upon submitting their requests for negotiation during the contract signing they hoped that all would get resolved before the season would start, but since the negotiations fell through they felt they had no choice but to withdraw? It probably has little to do with them trying to forcibly make NASL look bad by withdrawing last minute and more to do with them hoping things would work out amicably for both sides, and hence why they stayed till the last moment to make sure that nothing else could be worked out.
Jeezus, this korean hatred seems to have come out of no where this past week.
You just don't sign a contract you disagree with. I've never heard of such a thing. They were eager to get in season one with a ton submitting videos and knowing terms so I'm not so sure you could make an argument it was under duress or anything like that.
I think they liked NASL but something larger is at work here and it's all business.
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Oh and the Koreans aren't completely out of fault here.
If they need financial help if they wish to attend or if they would be put in a bad situation as a team, then they need to communicate that to the NASL rather than just being like "We demand better accommodations,"
Both sides have done very poorly.
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On August 17 2011 17:08 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:59 tdt wrote:On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare. Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know. Which is why we shouldn't bash Koreans for asking for more when they are the most likely to need the support. Foreign teams have sponsors unlike Korean teams. And yes SlayerS has Intel but they more than likely pulled out cause BoxeR wasn't pleased with the format. NASL should give the players that make the finals financial support if they need it. Possibly even ask the fans for a little help as well. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind paying another $1. That shit would add up quite quickly.
But beggers can't be choosers.
If the situation is that dire in Korea, they should be taking every chance at money they've got, rather than making demands.
And if this "Korean solidarity" is as powerful as it seems, then they could have made a simple pact stating that whatever prize money Koreans bring back would be redistributed for all participating players so that it covers whatever costs they accrued for traveling on top of NASL stipends (which are more than enough). It's not uncommon to do this.
And honestly, I can't see anyone bet on the fact that at least one of them wouldn't make it to the top 4, if not 2-3 of them.
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On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff.
All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel)
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On August 17 2011 17:11 Femari wrote:
Oh and the Koreans aren't completely out of fault here.
If they need financial help if they wish to attend or if they would be put in a bad situation as a team, then they need to communicate that to the NASL rather than just being like "We demand better accommodations,"
Both sides have done very poorly.
It made things even worse than this, considering they waited to make said demands until the eve of NASL season 2 as greater leverage over NASL, which unlike MLG or blizzard is a relatively small, new group of individuals obviously struggling a bit for cash and can't afford to just bend over to meet all demands and accommodations.
I agree though that both sides are at fault and it's unfortunate things have come to this.
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On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel)
Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.)
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On August 17 2011 16:57 whateverpeeps wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 17 2011 16:52 chipman wrote:
Let's look at things in more of a timeline.
1)Korean teams >all< withdraw from Nasl in the last moments before a new season, most likely purposely. For a culture of people who talk about professionalism and amateurs this was already a low blow. They played hardball. It's not like the timing of their withdraw was an accident, they waited on purpose to have a good hand and use it against NASL.
To wait to withdraw until the last moments as leverage is an extremely low, dirty blow. We often call people who make moves like that "scum" here in America. The NASL isn't some super power for esports, its an extremely new, relatively small group of people who had a cool idea and are trying to make it work. When the Korean teams signed the contracts for NASL during season 1, they knew what they were getting into. On the spot NASL offered to raise the stipend to 1k, even 2k. In other words they were willing to reach out and meet the Koreans part way. But apparently in Korea there should be absolutely no chance of even losing a penny while having the high, potential reward of a fortune, even when dealing with a relatively low key other party.
2)The season is about to start. NASL has to say >SOMETHING< to the fans and chose to do so somewhat clearly, openly as to what happened. They can't just delay it without statement.
3)Korean coaches exploit the fact that there was miscommunication on both sides, point fingers at NASL, while saying NASL is trying to blame them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this concept remind you of two children pointing fingers at eachother.
4)We the fan/player base suffer, Korea profits, for now.
Thanks Korea! Couldn't have said it better myself, except to add that I feel that Koreans, after all of this backlash, have gotten a little sensitive and defensive. I don't think the original post was attacking anyone, but due to the backlash, I feel like Korean coaches feel like they have to "clear their name" and one way to do that is to point the finger at NASL and exploit miscommunications (even if they are mostly the Korean side's fault for not using proper methods of negotiation).
Agreed. Korean teams played dirty and consequently lost the PR war. They want everything catered to them and NASL bent quite a bit to acomodate them.This seems like MVP's coach is expressing solidarity rather than anything else.
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No! The head coach of MVP did one mistake insisting that NASL should make an apology... not a great move. I suggest that his mindset should be that the two parties both made some error in the past but there now is time for renewed dialogue or something along those lines.
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That's how to write an article about the issue, show both sides. It's really a shame though. Would have liked to see some koreans play.
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On August 17 2011 17:20 archonOOid wrote:
No! The head coach of MVP did one mistake insisting that NASL should make an apology... not a great move. I suggest that his mindset should be that the two parties both made some error in the past but there now is time for renewed dialogue or something along those lines.
To be honest they should apologize for being unprofessional in their original post. But that's it. They lashed out at the Koreans. It was extremely unprofessional to do that even if the Koreans pissed them off. You won't garner much respect if you cannot handle things with class and put aside emotional bias.
When Rain withdrew from GSL you didn't see GOMTV bashing Rain. They just announced he has a GSL ban of 2 events (I think it was 2). They handled it professionally. NASL needs to act more like that in handling of events such as Koreans withdrawing.
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On August 17 2011 17:08 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:59 tdt wrote:On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare. Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know. Which is why we shouldn't bash Koreans for asking for more when they are the most likely to need the support. Foreign teams have sponsors unlike Korean teams. And yes SlayerS has Intel but they more than likely pulled out cause BoxeR wasn't pleased with the format. NASL should give the players that make the finals financial support if they need it. Possibly even ask the fans for a little help as well. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind paying another $1. That shit would add up quite quickly.
You talk as if there's an endless supply of money for NASL.
Just give them more!
If it was that easy it would have been done.
Let's say there would be 16 koreans at the grand final, NASL would have to pay 32k in travel expences. That was their offer. It was not enough.
If they say they don't have the budget to raise this who are you to say they really do?
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On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.)
At least for the MLG deal you're wrong. For other players I don't know (afaik the tourney that got Sase there was also completely paid for, but not sure who paid).
I don't know the details of Dreamhack, IEM and other international tournaments that had a few Koreans in them, but if they also paid for flight, hotel, etc. then a precedent seems to have been set. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing can be discussed, but the Koreans cannot really be blamed for expecting the same treatment at NASL, nor can NASL really be blamed for not wanting to foot the bill of who-knows-how-many koreans coming to the finals. This seems like something that should be negotiated about and the negotiations fell through (whose fault that was, we don't know). Hopefully next season they can work it out.
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On August 17 2011 17:24 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:20 archonOOid wrote:
No! The head coach of MVP did one mistake insisting that NASL should make an apology... not a great move. I suggest that his mindset should be that the two parties both made some error in the past but there now is time for renewed dialogue or something along those lines. To be honest they should apologize for being unprofessional in their original post. But that's it. They lashed out at the Koreans. It was extremely unprofessional to do that even if the Koreans pissed them off. You won't garner much respect if you cannot handle things with class and put aside emotional bias. When Rain withdrew from GSL you didn't see GOMTV bashing Rain. They just announced he has a GSL ban of 2 events (I think it was 2). They handled it professionally. NASL needs to act more like that in handling of events such as Koreans withdrawing.
This is actually an excellent idea. The Koreans who signed their contracts and then withdrew should be banned for one additional season (past this one). It would suck for me as a viewer, but I think that's a reasonable response, and honestly, if you break a contract after signing it, then there should be consequences of some sort.
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On August 17 2011 17:28 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:08 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:59 tdt wrote:On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare. Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know. Which is why we shouldn't bash Koreans for asking for more when they are the most likely to need the support. Foreign teams have sponsors unlike Korean teams. And yes SlayerS has Intel but they more than likely pulled out cause BoxeR wasn't pleased with the format. NASL should give the players that make the finals financial support if they need it. Possibly even ask the fans for a little help as well. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind paying another $1. That shit would add up quite quickly. You talk as if there's an endless supply of money for NASL. Just give them more! If it was that easy it would have been done. Let's say there would be 16 koreans at the grand final, NASL would have to pay 32k in travel expences. That was their offer. It was not enough. If they say they don't have the budget to raise this who are you to say they really do?
Did you read my post at all?
I gave a fucking alternative if the NASL couldn't afford to give a bit of financial support to players. Read the damn post. Raise the price of the stream a buck or two so they can start putting money aside if a player needs help affording it. Maybe even ask the fans for support. I'm sure the fans wouldn't mind donating a few dollars to see higher quality play.
Read a post fully before you respond to it.
On August 17 2011 17:30 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:24 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:20 archonOOid wrote:
No! The head coach of MVP did one mistake insisting that NASL should make an apology... not a great move. I suggest that his mindset should be that the two parties both made some error in the past but there now is time for renewed dialogue or something along those lines. To be honest they should apologize for being unprofessional in their original post. But that's it. They lashed out at the Koreans. It was extremely unprofessional to do that even if the Koreans pissed them off. You won't garner much respect if you cannot handle things with class and put aside emotional bias. When Rain withdrew from GSL you didn't see GOMTV bashing Rain. They just announced he has a GSL ban of 2 events (I think it was 2). They handled it professionally. NASL needs to act more like that in handling of events such as Koreans withdrawing. This is actually an excellent idea. The Koreans who signed their contracts and then withdrew should be banned for one additional season (past this one). It would suck for me as a viewer, but I think that's a reasonable response, and honestly, if you break a contract after signing it, then there should be consequences of some sort.
Pretty much. Problem is they decided to bash them rather than actually punish them.
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On August 17 2011 17:24 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:20 archonOOid wrote:
No! The head coach of MVP did one mistake insisting that NASL should make an apology... not a great move. I suggest that his mindset should be that the two parties both made some error in the past but there now is time for renewed dialogue or something along those lines. To be honest they should apologize for being unprofessional in their original post. But that's it. They lashed out at the Koreans. It was extremely unprofessional to do that even if the Koreans pissed them off. You won't garner much respect if you cannot handle things with class and put aside emotional bias. When Rain withdrew from GSL you didn't see GOMTV bashing Rain. They just announced he has a GSL ban of 2 events (I think it was 2). They handled it professionally. NASL needs to act more like that in handling of events such as Koreans withdrawing.
The Korean teams should apologizing for pulling out at the last minute even though they signed contracts.
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I'm really confused. I can understand if the koreans don't like waking up in middle of the night to play, what then when NASL is plagued with delays for them, but they should just come out and say _that_ then, people will understand that. It really seems like they are just trying to find any possible excuse to make it NASL's fault.
Edit: Also unprofessional to actually report on TL that the korean teams pulled out? Only thing more professional would've been if it was a joint announcement, but with the language barrier that'd take forever and this incident had already made NASL's time frame fubar.
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On August 17 2011 17:33 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:24 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:20 archonOOid wrote:
No! The head coach of MVP did one mistake insisting that NASL should make an apology... not a great move. I suggest that his mindset should be that the two parties both made some error in the past but there now is time for renewed dialogue or something along those lines. To be honest they should apologize for being unprofessional in their original post. But that's it. They lashed out at the Koreans. It was extremely unprofessional to do that even if the Koreans pissed them off. You won't garner much respect if you cannot handle things with class and put aside emotional bias. When Rain withdrew from GSL you didn't see GOMTV bashing Rain. They just announced he has a GSL ban of 2 events (I think it was 2). They handled it professionally. NASL needs to act more like that in handling of events such as Koreans withdrawing. The Korean teams should apologizing for pulling out at the last minute even though they signed contracts.
Doesn't mean NASL shouldn't apologize as well though.
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On August 17 2011 17:36 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:33 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 17 2011 17:24 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:20 archonOOid wrote:
No! The head coach of MVP did one mistake insisting that NASL should make an apology... not a great move. I suggest that his mindset should be that the two parties both made some error in the past but there now is time for renewed dialogue or something along those lines. To be honest they should apologize for being unprofessional in their original post. But that's it. They lashed out at the Koreans. It was extremely unprofessional to do that even if the Koreans pissed them off. You won't garner much respect if you cannot handle things with class and put aside emotional bias. When Rain withdrew from GSL you didn't see GOMTV bashing Rain. They just announced he has a GSL ban of 2 events (I think it was 2). They handled it professionally. NASL needs to act more like that in handling of events such as Koreans withdrawing. The Korean teams should apologizing for pulling out at the last minute even though they signed contracts. Doesn't mean NASL shouldn't apologize as well though.
They shouldnt, they didnt break binding contracts after reading them and waiting so long.
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On August 17 2011 17:43 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:36 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:33 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 17 2011 17:24 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:20 archonOOid wrote:
No! The head coach of MVP did one mistake insisting that NASL should make an apology... not a great move. I suggest that his mindset should be that the two parties both made some error in the past but there now is time for renewed dialogue or something along those lines. To be honest they should apologize for being unprofessional in their original post. But that's it. They lashed out at the Koreans. It was extremely unprofessional to do that even if the Koreans pissed them off. You won't garner much respect if you cannot handle things with class and put aside emotional bias. When Rain withdrew from GSL you didn't see GOMTV bashing Rain. They just announced he has a GSL ban of 2 events (I think it was 2). They handled it professionally. NASL needs to act more like that in handling of events such as Koreans withdrawing. The Korean teams should apologizing for pulling out at the last minute even though they signed contracts. Doesn't mean NASL shouldn't apologize as well though. They shouldnt, they didnt break binding contracts after reading them and waiting so long.
Acting unprofessionally and bashing the Koreans, even if they did wrong, warrants an apology.
NASL is at fault too. If they shouldn't apologize for being at fault neither should the Koreans.
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I side with NASL on this one..
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On August 17 2011 17:33 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:28 TheBanana wrote:On August 17 2011 17:08 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:59 tdt wrote:On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:
[quote]
Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare. Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know. Which is why we shouldn't bash Koreans for asking for more when they are the most likely to need the support. Foreign teams have sponsors unlike Korean teams. And yes SlayerS has Intel but they more than likely pulled out cause BoxeR wasn't pleased with the format. NASL should give the players that make the finals financial support if they need it. Possibly even ask the fans for a little help as well. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind paying another $1. That shit would add up quite quickly. You talk as if there's an endless supply of money for NASL. Just give them more! If it was that easy it would have been done. Let's say there would be 16 koreans at the grand final, NASL would have to pay 32k in travel expences. That was their offer. It was not enough. If they say they don't have the budget to raise this who are you to say they really do? Did you read my post at all? I gave a fucking alternative if the NASL couldn't afford to give a bit of financial support to players. Read the damn post. Raise the price of the stream a buck or two so they can start putting money aside if a player needs help affording it. Maybe even ask the fans for support. I'm sure the fans wouldn't mind donating a few dollars to see higher quality play. Read a post fully before you respond to it.
I read it fully, your deficient business "idea" that's based on nothing but your hopes and dreams is a part of the budget. As long as you don't have any hard facts and numbers like the NASL do, there is no base for that discussion.
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On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.)
MLG and GOM pay all travel expenses to any invited overseas players via GSL and MLG exchange program. I'm not sure how they handle the Road to Korea tournament.
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On August 17 2011 17:49 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:33 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:28 TheBanana wrote:On August 17 2011 17:08 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:59 tdt wrote:On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:34 Excomm wrote:
[quote]
Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt. I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night. Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare. Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know. Which is why we shouldn't bash Koreans for asking for more when they are the most likely to need the support. Foreign teams have sponsors unlike Korean teams. And yes SlayerS has Intel but they more than likely pulled out cause BoxeR wasn't pleased with the format. NASL should give the players that make the finals financial support if they need it. Possibly even ask the fans for a little help as well. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind paying another $1. That shit would add up quite quickly. You talk as if there's an endless supply of money for NASL. Just give them more! If it was that easy it would have been done. Let's say there would be 16 koreans at the grand final, NASL would have to pay 32k in travel expences. That was their offer. It was not enough. If they say they don't have the budget to raise this who are you to say they really do? Did you read my post at all? I gave a fucking alternative if the NASL couldn't afford to give a bit of financial support to players. Read the damn post. Raise the price of the stream a buck or two so they can start putting money aside if a player needs help affording it. Maybe even ask the fans for support. I'm sure the fans wouldn't mind donating a few dollars to see higher quality play. Read a post fully before you respond to it. I read it fully, your deficient business "idea" that's based on nothing but your hopes and dreams is a part of the budget. As long as you don't have any hard facts and numbers like the NASL do, there is no base for that discussion.
My random ideas (which were in no way shape or form fully complete ideas like you seem to have assumed) were just easy ways for the NASL to make more money to support the players coming in, Korean or not.
NASL definitely has not asked the community for a bit of help and I've seen lesser communities get more players than 16 to a fucking tournament. This is doable. NASL just seems to be stuck thinking they're all by themselves.
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On August 17 2011 17:51 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.) MLG and GOM pay all travel expenses to any invited overseas players via GSL and MLG exchange program. I'm not sure how they handle the Road to Korea tournament.
MLG only pays for 4 invited players. Only the most privileged or famous players will ever be given the opportunity.
NASL is a open tournament which technically anyone can qualify for. I can not think of any other tournament with an open qualification process that offer a travel stipend of any kind for their finalists.
It really feels like the Korean's have a false sense of entitlement. As far as I'm aware, the GSL is the only tournament these guys have to participate in regularly. Being able to qualify only for a tournament with a $40,000 prize is huge.
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On August 17 2011 17:34 Zarahtra wrote:
Edit: Also unprofessional to actually report on TL that the korean teams pulled out? Only thing more professional would've been if it was a joint announcement, but with the language barrier that'd take forever and this incident had already made NASL's time frame fubar.
That wasn't an announcement, that was an opinionated piece seeking to place the blame squarely on the koreans.
A proper announcement would have been short and simple, like "Due to the difficult circumstances that both parties face, Korean teams and NASL have decided to part ways. Matches will not be played blah blah blah and we greatly regret this turn of events yadda yadda."
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On August 17 2011 17:57 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:49 TheBanana wrote:On August 17 2011 17:33 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:28 TheBanana wrote:On August 17 2011 17:08 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:59 tdt wrote:On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 16:41 Femari wrote:
[quote]
I'll bet those Chinese/Ukrainian players didn't have to worry if they could eat that night.
Also they could demand shit if they wanted, they don't cause it's affordable to them unlike Koreans. I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare. Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know. Which is why we shouldn't bash Koreans for asking for more when they are the most likely to need the support. Foreign teams have sponsors unlike Korean teams. And yes SlayerS has Intel but they more than likely pulled out cause BoxeR wasn't pleased with the format. NASL should give the players that make the finals financial support if they need it. Possibly even ask the fans for a little help as well. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind paying another $1. That shit would add up quite quickly. You talk as if there's an endless supply of money for NASL. Just give them more! If it was that easy it would have been done. Let's say there would be 16 koreans at the grand final, NASL would have to pay 32k in travel expences. That was their offer. It was not enough. If they say they don't have the budget to raise this who are you to say they really do? Did you read my post at all? I gave a fucking alternative if the NASL couldn't afford to give a bit of financial support to players. Read the damn post. Raise the price of the stream a buck or two so they can start putting money aside if a player needs help affording it. Maybe even ask the fans for support. I'm sure the fans wouldn't mind donating a few dollars to see higher quality play. Read a post fully before you respond to it. I read it fully, your deficient business "idea" that's based on nothing but your hopes and dreams is a part of the budget. As long as you don't have any hard facts and numbers like the NASL do, there is no base for that discussion. My random ideas (which were in no way shape or form fully complete ideas like you seem to have assumed) were just easy ways for the NASL to make more money to support the players coming in, Korean or not. NASL definitely has not asked the community for a bit of help and I've seen lesser communities get more players than 16 to a fucking tournament. This is doable. NASL just seems to be stuck thinking they're all by themselves.
It's not as easy as "raise price = more income", if it was everyone with a product would be filthy rich.
Pricing is about balance. Sometimes "raise price = less income" like my local sports team is learning the hard way this season.
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On August 17 2011 17:59 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:51 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.) MLG and GOM pay all travel expenses to any invited overseas players via GSL and MLG exchange program. I'm not sure how they handle the Road to Korea tournament. MLG only pays for 4 invited players. Only the most privileged or famous players will ever be given the opportunity. NASL is a open tournament which technically anyone can qualify for. I can not think of any other tournament with an open qualification process that offer a travel stipend of any kind for their finalists. It really feels like the Korean's have a false sense of entitlement. As far as I'm aware, the GSL is the only tournament these guys have to participate in regularly. Being able to qualify only for a tournament with a $40,000 prize is huge.
That's false as anyone can enter MLG, you just have to pay.
Last post as it's 5 am and I need to sleep.
NASL and the Koreans both fucked up. The NASL was very unprofessional and lashed out at Koreans possibly making it near impossible for them to come back due to strained relations. The Koreans held the NASL hostage with their demands without reason.
What needs to happen is for them both to sit down and talk about everything. With Milkis as translator. So we know what happens.
Koreans need to communicate the why for the demands. NASL needs to look to the community for ideas and possibly help. They are not alone and they have mine and the rest of the community's support. I would willingly pay a bit extra if it would help get Koreans to the NASL.
Both parties are at fault, they need to admit that and make up so we can see the Koreans in the NASL again.
On August 17 2011 18:06 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:57 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:49 TheBanana wrote:On August 17 2011 17:33 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 17:28 TheBanana wrote:On August 17 2011 17:08 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:59 tdt wrote:On August 17 2011 16:54 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:50 brachester wrote:On August 17 2011 16:46 babylon wrote:
[quote]
I care very little about this topic, but please don't make it sound like you know anything about the finances of other teams. At least we know that most of the foreign teams have much better financial support than many korean teams. Which is the exact point that I was making. People seem to forget that before FXO came around to grab fOu, fOu was struggling to get by. FXOBoss even said that Choya was talking about how he didn't know where he could eat because they were struggling financially so bad. Maybe I shouldn't have commented with me having lived 80% of my life in South Korea and being a bit biased, but I think the players should get accommodated better. All the players. Not just Koreans. Koreans who don't have the money to send out players all the time would probably go if it was possible that they wouldn't lose money (within reason of course). They just can't take risks like that when they don't have money to spare. Korea is a richer country than any eastern European country. Not only that some teams have very good sponsors such as slayers with intel. Picking the worst performing team in Korea and applying it to all is a stretch. We just don't know. Which is why we shouldn't bash Koreans for asking for more when they are the most likely to need the support. Foreign teams have sponsors unlike Korean teams. And yes SlayerS has Intel but they more than likely pulled out cause BoxeR wasn't pleased with the format. NASL should give the players that make the finals financial support if they need it. Possibly even ask the fans for a little help as well. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind paying another $1. That shit would add up quite quickly. You talk as if there's an endless supply of money for NASL. Just give them more! If it was that easy it would have been done. Let's say there would be 16 koreans at the grand final, NASL would have to pay 32k in travel expences. That was their offer. It was not enough. If they say they don't have the budget to raise this who are you to say they really do? Did you read my post at all? I gave a fucking alternative if the NASL couldn't afford to give a bit of financial support to players. Read the damn post. Raise the price of the stream a buck or two so they can start putting money aside if a player needs help affording it. Maybe even ask the fans for support. I'm sure the fans wouldn't mind donating a few dollars to see higher quality play. Read a post fully before you respond to it. I read it fully, your deficient business "idea" that's based on nothing but your hopes and dreams is a part of the budget. As long as you don't have any hard facts and numbers like the NASL do, there is no base for that discussion. My random ideas (which were in no way shape or form fully complete ideas like you seem to have assumed) were just easy ways for the NASL to make more money to support the players coming in, Korean or not. NASL definitely has not asked the community for a bit of help and I've seen lesser communities get more players than 16 to a fucking tournament. This is doable. NASL just seems to be stuck thinking they're all by themselves. It's not as easy as "raise price = more income", if it was everyone with a product would be filthy rich. Pricing is about balance. Sometimes "raise price = less income" like my local sports team is learning the hard way this season.
That's why I said they're not fully fledged ideas. I'm throwing out ideas hoping the NASL will listen and attempt to do something.
This isn't about coming up with a solution on the spot, it's about getting them to man up to their mistakes (NASL and Koreans) and get shit done without acting like kids pointing fingers at each other.
And asking for donations to get the Koreans here wouldn't kill their income.
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As much as I think the Koreans should apologize first for breaking a contract, I cannot look over the fact that the NASL stated that it was important to the VIEWER to have a 100k prize pool, which is why they had to cut production quality and player treatment.
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Holy crap, there's a lot of bitter and uninformed morons posting here... Why not trying to read the interview regarding the play times for example. The problem was not 4am being the playtime, but the fact that when the players went/stayed up at 4am the games would be delayed two hours on top of that.. How is that so hard to understand?
I'm so god damned tired of the eternal "my region of the world is better than your", it makes me want to throw up.
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On August 17 2011 16:34 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:30 JustPassingBy wrote:On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem? Fact: Deposit was introduced to hold players responsible who cause trouble. Fact: the only players who caused trouble were those outside Korea Fact: from a Korean point of view, such a deposit is insulting and doubts the professionalism of the players no matter who is at fault, it is easy to see how this conflict came to happen Also a fact: Americans tend to do things across the board, meaning no special treatment. Yes, it was mostly the foreigners who failed to show up on time for matches, thus making a need for security deposits. HOWEVER, because American culture is one where equality and evenness are praised, that rule has to be applied to ALL the players. I think we have all spent a long time talking about how Korean culture should be considered, but this is a case where American culture needs to be considered by the Koreans. After all, it is an American business run by Americans in America. This is how law, contracts and such work in the US. I think in most cases, a contract saying X group has to pay but Y group doesn't would be an illegal contract in the US, which is probably why NASL didn't even consider it.
Find, then just reimburse all the players for traveling and lodging, no special treatment for Koreans. Seriously, do you really belive that we were talking about special treatments for Koreans? That when NASL reimburses them it does not apply to Europeans or Latin Americans?
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Koreans signed contracts, and waited till the last moment to break out of them.
I don't understand the controversy here other than: Shame on you guys for doing that, it's rude, and makes NASL have to scramble to fix things last minute. It just makes the Koreans look a little unprofessional.
Other than that... it's not a very big deal.
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On August 17 2011 17:59 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:51 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.) MLG and GOM pay all travel expenses to any invited overseas players via GSL and MLG exchange program. I'm not sure how they handle the Road to Korea tournament. It really feels like the Korean's have a false sense of entitlement. As far as I'm aware, the GSL is the only tournament these guys have to participate in regularly. Being able to qualify only for a tournament with a $40,000 prize is huge.
I think this is what bothers me a lot about this. These korean teams should be jumping at the chance to compete wherever they can because there's so much more going on outside Korea. I can't help but feel like these team managers are fucking over their players like this. What are they going to do? Practice for a month and a half and then try to win 5 best of threes in a row to get into code A where 16 of the people that can do that are going to have to do it all over again.
There's so many good players over there that aren't in the spotlight and they could be competing in tournaments while waiting for the Code A qualifiers to come around. It's just a shame that another avenue is closed off to these players when they could be getting their teams sponsored and things like travel expenses wouldn't really matter.
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On August 17 2011 18:17 Inky87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:59 Defacer wrote:On August 17 2011 17:51 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.) MLG and GOM pay all travel expenses to any invited overseas players via GSL and MLG exchange program. I'm not sure how they handle the Road to Korea tournament. It really feels like the Korean's have a false sense of entitlement. As far as I'm aware, the GSL is the only tournament these guys have to participate in regularly. Being able to qualify only for a tournament with a $40,000 prize is huge. I think this is what bothers me a lot about this. These korean teams should be jumping at the chance to compete wherever they can because there's so much more going on outside Korea. I can't help but feel like these team managers are fucking over their players like this. What are they going to do? Practice for a month and a half and then try to win 5 best of threes in a row to get into code A where 16 of the people that can do that are going to have to do it all over again. There's so many good players over there that aren't in the spotlight and they could be competing in tournaments while waiting for the Code A qualifiers to come around. It's just a shame that another avenue is closed off to these players when they could be getting their teams sponsored and things like travel expenses wouldn't really matter.
It's more likely than risk losing your own money and going oversea and still competing with good korean players, and tbh, top foregeigners can still takes game off of them, why risk participating while it is better (long term) for them to stay and practice for GSL?
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On August 17 2011 18:13 tiaz wrote:
Holy crap, there's a lot of bitter and uninformed morons posting here... Why not trying to read the interview regarding the play times for example. The problem was not 4am being the playtime, but the fact that when the players went/stayed up at 4am the games would be delayed two hours on top of that.. How is that so hard to understand?
I'm so god damned tired of the eternal "my region of the world is better than your", it makes me want to throw up.
This is an issue that was discussed and was being improved upon for season 2. I'm so god damned tired of people posting things without reading as much information as possible and feed the hate machine instead.
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On August 17 2011 17:29 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.) At least for the MLG deal you're wrong. For other players I don't know (afaik the tourney that got Sase there was also completely paid for, but not sure who paid). I don't know the details of Dreamhack, IEM and other international tournaments that had a few Koreans in them, but if they also paid for flight, hotel, etc. then a precedent seems to have been set. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing can be discussed, but the Koreans cannot really be blamed for expecting the same treatment at NASL, nor can NASL really be blamed for not wanting to foot the bill of who-knows-how-many koreans coming to the finals. This seems like something that should be negotiated about and the negotiations fell through (whose fault that was, we don't know). Hopefully next season they can work it out.
For the Code A invites from a MLG, I believe they'll buy you air fare and cover lodging (not food). For the 4 LXP players, their costs are covered by MLG. I believe there were 9 Koreans @ MLG Anaheim, only 4 were covered by MLG, the rest were paid for by their sponsors (FXO & Fnatic for their members, Razer for SlayerSAlicia & SlayerSGanzi). For the other European events, I believe MC paid his own way to all of them except the Dreamhack invite & Dreamhack Summer (because he won the Invite one). Being "comped" to an event is I'm pretty sure currently only a MLG/GSL exchange thing, and a few other events. It'll get more common, but it isn't standard practice at this moment.
The problem is that, except for SlayerS, I don't think any of the Korean teams really can afford to toss in 1k USD or so to cover the cost difference. I'm still sort of surprised EG didn't outright buy a Korean team, given the money they are investing in Huk probably could have covered it, lol.
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I'd say the main issue here is difference in culture. Playing in Korea is obviously a lot different than it is in America and I think the Koreans were expecting NASL to make it exactly like it is in Korea, which to be honest is a pretty much unacceptable expectation. And it is clear that the Koreans are acting snottish, I doubt it is the players that feel this way but definately the managers, they see themselves as giving people a treat by participating in the NASL.
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What MVP's coach is saying makes sense but I would like to ask him something : why don't european players complain whereas they have the same conditions and a way smaller chance to get the money in the end ?
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On August 17 2011 18:21 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 18:17 Inky87 wrote:On August 17 2011 17:59 Defacer wrote:On August 17 2011 17:51 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.) MLG and GOM pay all travel expenses to any invited overseas players via GSL and MLG exchange program. I'm not sure how they handle the Road to Korea tournament. It really feels like the Korean's have a false sense of entitlement. As far as I'm aware, the GSL is the only tournament these guys have to participate in regularly. Being able to qualify only for a tournament with a $40,000 prize is huge. I think this is what bothers me a lot about this. These korean teams should be jumping at the chance to compete wherever they can because there's so much more going on outside Korea. I can't help but feel like these team managers are fucking over their players like this. What are they going to do? Practice for a month and a half and then try to win 5 best of threes in a row to get into code A where 16 of the people that can do that are going to have to do it all over again. There's so many good players over there that aren't in the spotlight and they could be competing in tournaments while waiting for the Code A qualifiers to come around. It's just a shame that another avenue is closed off to these players when they could be getting their teams sponsored and things like travel expenses wouldn't really matter. It's more likely than risk losing your own money and going oversea and still competing with good korean players, and tbh, top foregeigners can still takes game off of them, why risk participating while it is better (long term) for them to stay and practice for GSL?
I don't think it's really a binary issue. It's not like they're not getting experience by competing elsewhere. GSL doesn't pay that well unless you're in top 6 and if you're not in the GSL, there's a lot working against you trying to break into it if you're going through the qualifiers. There wouldn't be any risk at all participating in these foreign leagues if they were properly sponsored. Personally I think it's very generous for NASL to subsidize the travel costs when they're working on such a tight budget.
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nasl failing everytimes !
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Can someone give me a comparison of what NASL offered the koreans in terms of travel/accommodation stipend compared to what GOM gives to foreigners?
Just curious to see how the 2 compare and if this outcry is justified.
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Ahm...
So, the Korean teams on average are rather poor.
Well, and? If there aren't enough sponsors in Korea the "logical" thing to do is expand their efforts worldwide...
Maybe they would be less poor if they would take some risks and actually play overseas to get more recognition and not just "waste" their time in GSL's were only the very top few gain serious cash...
I mean seriously, look at the players that travel around, aside from MLG there are nearly always the same Koreans going around... And MC became a huge star due to it, I bet my ass his market "worth" is higher than Nestea, MKP or any other Korean in SC2 and his winnings are also showing that traveling is actually "worth" it...
It's one thing when a player like Nestea sais that he focuses on GSL... Because he wins them, it's another thing if some "random Korean team member" is not going abroad because it's out of his comfort zone and there is risk involved.
What people don't seem to understand (including the Koreans):
The NASL is no invitational (well, it should not have been after S1). It's a league, your mainly there to compete, not to just bolster the rank with your big name, that’s the reason there is only a "short" live event after a long season.
You sign a contract to play in the league knowing full well what is expected from you, you get punished if you break the rules (whiteout good reasons) and in the end, if you were good, you can make serious cash, if not... Well, play better next time or leave.
Btw: MLG I-N-V-I-T-E-S Korean players, thats an entirely diffrent story. Don't compare the NASL to GOM/MLG and their deal, it's not the same and you shouldn't compare them.
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By now this is just a better soap opera. Nothing good is going to happen from talking to the press about certain issues and then read the answer of the other party on another website. Talk with each other or just don't talk at all. It comes off as extremely amateurish to handle things this way. The first announcement from NASL was fine as far as I am concerned it explained the situation and I didn't feel they were blaming the korean teams too much. Everything afterwards from both sides is just playing the blame game.
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I think NASL also need to get another sound guy, because it feels all the money went into the prize pool.
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On August 17 2011 18:08 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 17:59 Defacer wrote:On August 17 2011 17:51 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 17:18 babylon wrote:On August 17 2011 17:15 lee365 wrote:On August 17 2011 16:51 Ruscour wrote:
I don't usually defend NASL, but what the Koreans are asking for is insane. Disappointing that this happened, and I feel sorry for Xeris and the rest of the NASL staff. All the Koreans are asking is to be treated the same way GOM and MLG treat their overseas players. (Food, Housing,Travel) Actually, I was under the impression that GOM only provides housing and travel to and from the airport. Travel costs to get to Korea and food costs come directly out of the pockets of the players' teams. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.) MLG and GOM pay all travel expenses to any invited overseas players via GSL and MLG exchange program. I'm not sure how they handle the Road to Korea tournament. MLG only pays for 4 invited players. Only the most privileged or famous players will ever be given the opportunity. NASL is a open tournament which technically anyone can qualify for. I can not think of any other tournament with an open qualification process that offer a travel stipend of any kind for their finalists. It really feels like the Korean's have a false sense of entitlement. As far as I'm aware, the GSL is the only tournament these guys have to participate in regularly. Being able to qualify only for a tournament with a $40,000 prize is huge. That's false as anyone can enter MLG, you just have to pay.
Let me clarify: Anyone can qualify, but it's a LAN event and unless you're one of the four Korean superstars invited, you have to pay to get there. So it's very costly for anyone not from NA to participate.
NASL is the largest tournament out there that players can play and qualify for, online. I believe IPL3 will have online qualifiers though, and they are covering travel and accommodation -- but to be frank, I don't know to what extent. And I'm not sure how they could possibly budget for this, its quite a bit of financial risk to take on depending on where players come from.
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Fair enough comments from Choi.
Constructive too, NASL can take or leave them and no hard feelings either way - or so it should appear.
Might be a good idea for a bit of VIP treatment of star players, then again it might be a good idea to not let foreigner players feel second class in their own tournament. This is just advice that the organisers at NASL will have to think with and make a good choice.
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I find it very hard to have any sympathy with the Koreans here when they waited til the last minute to pull out the competition, that's a major dick move.
Hopefully things will get sorted out in the future and they'll be back in the NASL.
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Amateurish? oh the hypocrisy. Koreans treating NASL like a charity.
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I gotta agree with the koreans here. NASL for them isn't worth it in the end with time difference and how last season was problem after problem. I'd be angry also if I woke up at 4am to sit for hours waiting for opponents that didn't show. That alone wouldn't make me want to participate again with how frequent that happened. Surely things can be corrected and maybe next season they will return.
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On August 17 2011 12:57 Solinos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:51 ninjamyst wrote:On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Treat us like the rock stars that we are, OK?" I'm sure they want free steak dinners and limo service thrown in too. When YOU are in foreign country, it would be nice if your host picks you up from the airport. They just want to be treated like a guest, not a rock star. So please dont insult their simple request...you are only insulting your own intelligence and manner. Fair enough point - requesting that travel from the airport to the tournament be taken care of is fine. Most of the Korean pros don't have great English skills, and they're all going to be really tired from the flight. At the same time, I'm not sure how much money NASL has to throw around at this sort of thing, and it would be fairly rude to make accommodations for Koreans and not for the European pros. I'm not entirely clear what happened with season one travel - it seemed to me as though NASL had footed that $80 bill before, and now it seems like they didn't. As far as the article's points: Reducing technical issues, wait time, and generally increasing the level of professionalism at NASL events are obvious musts that need to happen as NASL continues on. I can't imagine what else they'd do, though - it's not like anyone at NASL is sitting there thinking, "Boy, we loved having all that deadtime at the finals! Made it really exciting, you know?"
If they can spare 100,000 in prize money, surely they can rustle up... 400 dollars for travel? That's assuming 5 Koreans at the finals, too.
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On August 17 2011 18:48 Velr wrote:
Maybe they would be less poor if they would take some risks and actually play overseas to get more recognition and not just "waste" their time in GSL's were only the very top few gain serious cash...
I mean seriously, look at the players that travel around, aside from MLG there are nearly always the same Koreans going around... And MC became a huge star due to it, I bet my ass his market "worth" is higher than Nestea, MKP or any other Korean in SC2 and his winnings are also showing that traveling is actually "worth" it...
It's one thing when a player like Nestea sais that he focuses on GSL... Because he wins them, it's another thing if some "random Korean team member" is not going abroad because it's out of his comfort zone and there is risk involved.
I find it funny that on the one hand you say 'they'd be less poor if they fought overseas' while completely neglecting the fact that most players CAN'T AFFORD TO.
Nestea could pay for his own flight, but a lot of them can't unless their teams send them. And the teams aren't rich either, and many of them can't afford to. It's not a matter of comfort zone, it's the financial realities of SC2 in Korea.
I think foreigners are getting a really twisted perspective on how much money is in this game by the big name sponsors that are behind foreign teams.
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On August 17 2011 18:21 Inky87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 18:13 tiaz wrote:
Holy crap, there's a lot of bitter and uninformed morons posting here... Why not trying to read the interview regarding the play times for example. The problem was not 4am being the playtime, but the fact that when the players went/stayed up at 4am the games would be delayed two hours on top of that.. How is that so hard to understand?
I'm so god damned tired of the eternal "my region of the world is better than your", it makes me want to throw up.
This is an issue that was discussed and was being improved upon for season 2. I'm so god damned tired of people posting things without reading as much information as possible and feed the hate machine instead.
source? I can find no article about what went wrong and will be made right on the nasl site.
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Honestly, I say make the league half the amount of time and half the games. Fix scheduling to accomodate all regions. Punish players like PAINUSER heavily right from the get go. Halve the prize and use the other $50k on stuff like accomodation for qualifiers. Shit MLG has a $5k prize while NASL has $50K but players are idiots and not thinking this and they attend MLG instead???
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Sorry but the Koreans are definitely wrong here. They ask for way too much, much more than other tournaments are ever willing to give, and then once they get almost everything they leave right before the season is supposed to start and AFTER signing contracts.
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On August 17 2011 20:31 Cartel wrote:
Honestly, I say make the league half the amount of time and half the games. Fix scheduling to accomodate all regions. Punish players like PAINUSER heavily right from the get go. Halve the prize and use the other $50k on stuff like accomodation for qualifiers. Shit MLG has a $5k prize while NASL has $50K but players are idiots and not thinking this and they attend MLG instead???
NASL claimed in a statement on TL about the Koreans withdrawing that it is important for the viewers to have a 100k prize pool.
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"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
This is something all the players can agree with imo. Too many walkovers occurred on matches we wanted to see and some of the matches could be anywhere from 2am-4am when people should be sleeping. Schedules are extremely strict with zero leeway.
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On August 17 2011 20:31 FlamingTurd wrote:
Sorry but the Koreans are definitely wrong here. They ask for way too much, much more than other tournaments are ever willing to give, and then once they get almost everything they leave right before the season is supposed to start and AFTER signing contracts.
no other tournaments offer more.... like... THE GSL they give you a fucking house to live in.
i think they earned to right to get picked up at the airport and have a place to stay.
i don't really blame the NASL for anything but hopefully they can be more generous, the price of two hotel rooms is negligible in the overall budget.
honestly what is with the deal with the deposit. He said it well when he said it shows distrust in the players.
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These tournaments are about the players and these are the customs of their teams. They are professionals. With that said, unfortunately the flights are very expensive and it's for them because their sponsorships just aren't the same when it comes to the top international teams. That's just one of the reasons you see Koreans joining them.
Hard to treat everybody equally at the moment. ;/
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Wow… what a disgrace. At first I thought these Korean teams felt incredibly entitled an lack professionalism as organizations. Then I remembered KeSPA, the top of professional Korean e-Sports. This looks an awful lot like "what would KeSPA do?".
I went from being somewhat disappointed about seeing less matches on the Korean level of competition to being glad that they felt compelled to pull out of this league. The sense of entitlement they're displaying is insane.
Is this a cultural thing or something, seeing that KeSPA behaves in a much similar manner?
Despite all of its mistakes, and it had a lot of work to do, a lot of room to grow, I can at least understand NASL's reasoning and while they have been wrong in some instances they didn't publicly express blatant disrespect for the people they were dealing with.
The Korean teams on the other hand don't seem to miss a single chance to throw dirt at someone they feel cheated by.
Leave them out of NASL. That kind of attitude isn't needed.
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In my opinion the Korean teams need to issue an apology to NASL for pulling out at the last minute and not the other way round...
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On August 17 2011 20:31 Cartel wrote:
Honestly, I say make the league half the amount of time and half the games. Fix scheduling to accomodate all regions. Punish players like PAINUSER heavily right from the get go. Halve the prize and use the other $50k on stuff like accomodation for qualifiers. Shit MLG has a $5k prize while NASL has $50K but players are idiots and not thinking this and they attend MLG instead???
I know NASL liked to pin a lot of their problems on Painuser, but as it happens waiting around to play your matches was a serious problem throughout the entire tournament
http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/entry.php?b=1880
Now imagine that happening to someone who gets up at 4 am to play their game.
That's why Koreans were not happy with the playing conditions, and no one can honestly blame them. I don't think they expect to be treated like royalty they just don't want to play in the absolute worst conditions, evidently it's not worth it to them.
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Looks like a huge communication error on how things work in the states.
Most every competition I know of that gives a travel stipend does so after you attend the event.
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I just knew the language barrier was an issue! god dammit!
when will we make robots that auto translate instantly!
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Well this drama is understandable. The post by NASAL on TL 'announcing' korean departure was seen by the koreans as an attempt to publicly sully their reputation (which arguably is was). So, in response the koreans have to hit back, to try and restore some of their lost reputation: even if it means airing out other reasons less flattering to the NASAL.
Still, personally I wonder when this drama-fest will end, and how long the two sides can keep going on and on...already getting a little old.
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On August 17 2011 20:51 enzym wrote:
Wow… what a disgrace. At first I thought these Korean teams felt incredibly entitled an lack professionalism as organizations. Then I remembered KeSPA, the top of professional Korean e-Sports. This looks an awful lot like "what would KeSPA do?".
I went from being somewhat disappointed about seeing less matches on the Korean level of competition to being glad that they felt compelled to pull out of this league. The sense of entitlement they're displaying is insane.
Is this a cultural thing or something, seeing that KeSPA behaves in a much similar manner?
Despite all of its mistakes, and it had a lot of work to do, a lot of room to grow, I can at least understand NASL's reasoning and while they have been wrong in some instances they didn't publicly express blatant disrespect for the people they were dealing with.
The Korean teams on the other hand don't seem to miss a single chance to throw dirt at someone they feel cheated by.
Leave them out of NASL. That kind of attitude isn't needed.
Lol, all the new TL members who joined because of Sc2 should stop talking about things they know little about >_<. KeSPA is almost singlehandedly responsible for growing and sustaining ScBW in Korea. Without it, or at least without a governing body similar to it, ScBW wouldn't be where it is now.
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I agree with what he says about the language barrier, for example, articles like this could appear insulting towards NASL but i'm sure he doesn't mean it to be that way.
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On August 17 2011 20:42 OrangeApples wrote:Show nested quote +
"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
This is something all the players can agree with imo. Too many walkovers occurred on matches we wanted to see and some of the matches could be anywhere from 2am-4am when people should be sleeping. Schedules are extremely strict with zero leeway.
It's the player's responsibility to show up. Not much the NASL can do here except provide incentive, which they did in form of the deposit from which money was deducted to penalize players failing to observe the rules.
The teams also knew beforehand that the games were to be played at NA and at unfavourable times for some players depending on time zone since it is the North American Star League afterall. They knew this and signed up for it. There's no legitimacy in complaining about that at all.
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It is amazing how people say NASL is unprofessional when the Koreans broke their contracts and did not negotiate correctly in a timely manner.
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Oh lovely, more of this shit. At first it was interesting, now I hope I'm not the only one that just doesn't give a shit anymore.
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On August 17 2011 21:00 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 20:51 enzym wrote:
Wow… what a disgrace. At first I thought these Korean teams felt incredibly entitled an lack professionalism as organizations. Then I remembered KeSPA, the top of professional Korean e-Sports. This looks an awful lot like "what would KeSPA do?".
I went from being somewhat disappointed about seeing less matches on the Korean level of competition to being glad that they felt compelled to pull out of this league. The sense of entitlement they're displaying is insane.
Is this a cultural thing or something, seeing that KeSPA behaves in a much similar manner?
Despite all of its mistakes, and it had a lot of work to do, a lot of room to grow, I can at least understand NASL's reasoning and while they have been wrong in some instances they didn't publicly express blatant disrespect for the people they were dealing with.
The Korean teams on the other hand don't seem to miss a single chance to throw dirt at someone they feel cheated by.
Leave them out of NASL. That kind of attitude isn't needed. Lol, all the new TL members who joined because of Sc2 should stop talking about things they know little about >_<. KeSPA is almost singlehandedly responsible for growing and sustaining ScBW in Korea. Without it, or at least without a governing body similar to it, ScBW wouldn't be where it is now.
I might have misunderstood your post, because it doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe you intended to quote someone else?
I registered this account when Ret was staying in Korea, before the SC2 Beta hit and according to my memory before there was an SC2 section on TL. It is my second one after I couldn't find the first one anymore.
You Joined TL.net Wednesday, 11th of May 2011
I Joined TL.net Wednesday, 20th of January 2010
Even if it were registered at a later date, "because of SC2", it wouldn't say anything about how long I or other people have followed StarCraft or what we have seen of and heard about KeSPA.
Whether or not "KeSPA is almost singlehandedly responsible for growing and sustaining ScBW in Korea" is arguable at best (not in this thread though). I vehemently disagree.
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I liked watching the NASL and I'm sure alot of people did. Sure there were some obvious problems , but hell they only have been getting better.
I don't think you should make any special arrangements for anyone at all.
If your team can't afford to support you then you can't enter as simple as that.
Yeah it's a bit mean but it's the facts of life, sporting life in fact. They shouldn't change any of the game times to accommodate the Korean players either it is the North American Star League after all.
It will be sad not see a Korean presence in the NASL though. The person who linked crunchers post was interesting. Maybe it was never as exciting as GSL but it's kinda cool to flick on a NASL stream while your eating dinner or just relaxing
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On August 17 2011 13:01 ninjamyst wrote:
This just shows how BADLY NASL treated them, for them to give up a chance to win $40k. That means NASL really messed up. Koreans have no problem going to MLG and other tournaments with smaller prize pool. It's not the $$, it's being mistreated.
Same impression here.
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On August 17 2011 20:48 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 20:31 FlamingTurd wrote:
Sorry but the Koreans are definitely wrong here. They ask for way too much, much more than other tournaments are ever willing to give, and then once they get almost everything they leave right before the season is supposed to start and AFTER signing contracts. no other tournaments offer more.... like... THE GSL they give you a fucking house to live in. i think they earned to right to get picked up at the airport and have a place to stay. i don't really blame the NASL for anything but hopefully they can be more generous, the price of two hotel rooms is negligible in the overall budget. honestly what is with the deal with the deposit. He said it well when he said it shows distrust in the players.
Why even bring up the GOM house? The GSL tournament can potentially be a MONTH long thing for a player. How do you expect a foreigner to live in SK? GOM has to provide some sort of housing or it would be even more difficult for foreigners to go.
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Dunno, I like having koreans but not at the cost of them having better treatment than others. If they didn't like it, they should've of not signed the contracts in the first place :/
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Whoa the OP is oPlaiD? Are you the same pro scout from competitive TF2? If so, then you sir are a baller.
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On August 17 2011 12:45 HolyArrow wrote:
Thank you for posting this! Will read now.
Dude, why don't you read first before posting? The point of this is to discuss it, not to post on it first...
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On August 17 2011 21:20 soiii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:01 ninjamyst wrote:
This just shows how BADLY NASL treated them, for them to give up a chance to win $40k. That means NASL really messed up. Koreans have no problem going to MLG and other tournaments with smaller prize pool. It's not the $$, it's being mistreated. Same impression here.
NASL probably treated them ~ like everyone else... Other tourneys should do the same (while NASL resolves it's issues)...
I can't stand tournaments sucking the Koreans cock just because some guys declaring "not watching stracraft 2 whiteout kroeans in it"...
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On August 17 2011 21:07 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 20:42 OrangeApples wrote:
"Second, they should fix the poor operation of NASL, in both the online league and finals," said the coach, "Making the players wait for such a long period of time like that greatly affects their conditions and their performance.
This is something all the players can agree with imo. Too many walkovers occurred on matches we wanted to see and some of the matches could be anywhere from 2am-4am when people should be sleeping. Schedules are extremely strict with zero leeway. It's the player's responsibility to show up. Not much the NASL can do here except provide incentive, which they did in form of the deposit from which money was deducted to penalize players failing to observe the rules. The teams also knew beforehand that the games were to be played at NA and at unfavourable times for some players depending on time zone since it is the North American Star League afterall. They knew this and signed up for it. There's no legitimacy in complaining about that at all.
Y'know, this has gotten to be such a massive cluster, when this is the only thing that really matters; it's pretty obvious the Korean teams never should have gotten involved in a situation where they were going to be on the hook for potentially sending multiple players to the US with no payoff.
I think their eyes were bigger than their wallets, and it took the finals for them to realize what a potential debacle they were facing (this is why the whole 'OMG those assholes participated in the S2 qualifiers' sentiment seems so misplaced to me). I feel like Boxer's experience which was the worst case scenario being played out (fly out, sit for 12 hours, play 2 games, fly home) was the big wake up call.
While I agree with a number of their complaints (which are why I'm not going to be watching future NASLs), listing them is a little petty and a transparent face-saving attempt. It boils down to a case of teams with no money (this is why they can't afford to sign their 20 player rosters to long term contracts) suddenly faced with the reality that the finals could be 12-16 Koreans.
I also think the Puma situation is terrifying for them, with MLG/Dreamhack the participants are hand picked, whereas with the NASL a prized under the radar player can go from major contributor to some random team's crown jewel in one fell swoop. This is another 'it didn't occur to them until the finals and then it happened' worst case scenario.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
Koreans are very good at playing the victim when it comes to media. They went through qualifiers for a tournament just so they could all threaten to pull out at the last minute to get some leverage. Blame lies with them 100%.
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I've kinda had enough of the korean teams as well. The MVP coach is basically demanding special treatment from NASL, solely because they're korean. My interpretation is that the koreans have realized that they're stock is very high in the foreign community right now, and they are using that as leverage to get better deals out of tournaments.
What about europeans who come over? Lots of them don't have excellent English skills. And with the tornament in california, many of them will need to fly almost as far or farther than koreans. Yet the MVP coach doesn't seem too concerned with them.
Could the NASL have run their finals better? Yes, of course. The timing issue of koreans needing to be up late is a problem, but honestly with the global nature of the NASL there really isn't a way around it. Either a korean wakes up early to play, or the entire NASL production crew needs to either get up super early/late.
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First season of NASL.... that is all. Are they amateurs at the moment? Yes. Do the Koreans have to be so combative about it? No.
For the first season, the Koreans can't have expected it to be completely smooth sailing. The NASL has ( I think ) a relatively small staff. I feel like they should DEFINITELY been focusing more on their production (especially after what had happened lol), and the Koreans weren't able to be received how they wanted to be. Do they have a right to complain about the format, I believe so. However NASL says that they need to cast every single match, whether that means getting a separate stage for the other casters to cast some matches, or something of the sort.
Bottom line is that it's the first season of NASL, and as it's the only league of its type, to expect a completely smooth ride is very naive. I think all of these things that the Koreans complained about (except maybe the format), would have been remedied next season. Nothing can be figured out on the first try..
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yeah nasl has lost their reputation imo and not the koreans.
nasl had poor lag and weird streaming issues consistently throughout season 1 and although their prize pool was huge, they would keep players waiting (i remember julyzerg had to wait 4-5 hours early morning to wait for a game that nobody showed up for so he won). Sorry but for a progamer to wait 4-5 is really bad.
I would hope nasl reduce their prize pool and funnel the money into production values and helping the players.
atm nasl is definately the worst big tournament i've ever seen
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On August 17 2011 21:43 Psycosquirrel wrote:
I've kinda had enough of the korean teams as well. The MVP coach is basically demanding special treatment from NASL, solely because they're korean. My interpretation is that the koreans have realized that they're stock is very high in the foreign community right now, and they are using that as leverage to get better deals out of tournaments.
What about europeans who come over? Lots of them don't have excellent English skills. And with the tornament in california, many of them will need to fly almost as far or farther than koreans. Yet the MVP coach doesn't seem too concerned with them.
Could the NASL have run their finals better? Yes, of course. The timing issue of koreans needing to be up late is a problem, but honestly with the global nature of the NASL there really isn't a way around it. Either a korean wakes up early to play, or the entire NASL production crew needs to either get up super early/late.
the whole point of a coach is to take care of their members. The koreans have the best players so from their pov and most peoples' pov, they are the players that people wanna watch the most (TL POLLS CONFIRMS THIS!). the best players should get special treatment because nasl gets extra viewers and money because of korean players. that's a fact.
if u want nasl to become a world class big tournament to rival gsl, you need to make those sacrifices.
no point whining about a coach who is doing his job in order to get players the best treatment.
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The speak about amateurish behaviour, when the koreans broke their contracts? I really dont understand that. They have no grounds at all for saying anything about anyone, when they signed the contracts, knowing full well what was in them, and then waited until the last moment before the NASL was going to start to basically try and blackmail the NASL.
Maybe the NASL didn't take great care of the players when they came to the US. Maybe they there's tons of things that they need to fix, before the koreans decide to participate in it again. And that's fine, let NASL do that first.
But the koreans broke their fucking contracts, and in the worst possible way. They signed the contracts, then at the worst possible moment for the NASL the objected to the terms of the contract. After signing them. Scumbag move.
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On August 17 2011 21:35 AnalThermometer wrote:
Koreans are very good at playing the victim when it comes to media. They went through qualifiers for a tournament just so they could all threaten to pull out at the last minute to get some leverage. Blame lies with them 100%.
Some leverage to what end? You're not looking for leverage when you're leaving a league, you're looking for leverage if you want to stay.
Honestly, this is just a "diminishing returns" thing for the Koreans. There's no point them flying whole teams over to stomp a few foreigners and then have the Ro16 be all-Korea, unless NASL is willing to cover that cost (which in my opinion they should). I bet in future seasons of NASL, there will be 2-3 Korean invites that will come over and smash the tournament, just like MLG. That's a much more sustainable business model for both parties - NASL is hit with a lot less cost, and they still get the hype of higher match quality that comes when Koreans attend anything.
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The Koreans have to realize that e-sports simply is not as developed as it is over in Korea despite the colossal sums of money on offer, and that in order for it to develop, they're going to have to lower their standards for a while as the tournaments get set up.
Traditionally our big e-sports tournaments are linked to gaming/nerdy conventions rather than tournaments for their own sake. MLG and NASL are relative exceptions to this, but even MLG doesn't have particularly high production values.
The big exception of course is Blizzcon, but Blizzcon is corporate funded.
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I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining?
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On August 17 2011 21:58 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 21:35 AnalThermometer wrote:
Koreans are very good at playing the victim when it comes to media. They went through qualifiers for a tournament just so they could all threaten to pull out at the last minute to get some leverage. Blame lies with them 100%. Some leverage to what end? You're not looking for leverage when you're leaving a league, you're looking for leverage if you want to stay. Honestly, this is just a "diminishing returns" thing for the Koreans. There's no point them flying whole teams over to stomp a few foreigners and then have the Ro16 be all-Korea, unless NASL is willing to cover that cost (which in my opinion they should). I bet in future seasons of NASL, there will be 2-3 Korean invites that will come over and smash the tournament, just like MLG. That's a much more sustainable business model for both parties - NASL is hit with a lot less cost, and they still get the hype of higher match quality that comes when Koreans attend anything.
except $100000.
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lol maybe NASL shouldve made an unbreakable contract deal, so Koreans wouldnt have fucking broke the contract or sign the contract in first place.
i see why a lot of ppl is mad about this issue, but this is rather difficult in first place to bring a lot of Koreans to US. time difference is at least 16 hours to 20 hours
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On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining?
Well it's your opinion vs the opinion of every single Korean player who actually participated in the tournament. And players like Naniwa who also said NASL is not worth the hassle with the way it is organized.
But please continue, tell us how they are all pathetic, you would know better
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On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining?
Here's a question: When you were in your very early twenties or teens, did you personally have a grand to throw about? I know I didn't, and I know they don't either.
They don't have sponsors paying their way the way all the foreigners who've been to Korea do.
And it's also worth noting that GOM bends over backwards to make foreigners lives easier when they do go to Korea.
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On August 17 2011 22:08 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining? Well it's your opinion vs the opinion of every single Korean player who actually participated in the tournament. And players like Naniwa who also said NASL is not worth the hassle with the way it is organized. But please continue, tell us how they are all pathetic, you would know better
I'm just saying it seems that the korean teams (for what I've seen and I don't know everything I'm aware of that) are complaining that its expensive more than anything else...well its expensive to go live for a month in Korea and when GSL first started there was no GOM house so maybe they need to realize that all this is part of NASL's growth and that crying and backing out at the last second is quite childish and is only going to look bad
now I'm sure NASL is a hassle but the Koreans could have said sooner that they wished to back out rather than just one day decided to say "nope we don't wanna" and leave the nasl high and dry
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So much of this simply comes down to communication problems, it's just sad :/
NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea
With this I agree very much tho, NASL really should get their act together concerning their website. While posting stuff on TL absolutely makes sense, I feel official announcements/statements should be posted on the nasl.tv site first and foremost, and it seems like NASL has abandoned that practice almost completely. The official website is totally outdated and imo this gives NASL a really bad impression. If you visited the homepage right now you'd think all the korean players are still competing, Player/Team sites still are from S1 (hi ROOT gaming), and none of the recent news can be found. It's just bad and I can see why people would think of NASL as an amateurish organisation. :/
I don't think this whole Korean player debacle should be blamed on NASL entirely, but I think alot things need to change in their organisation, the league definitely has potential, but bad management/ decisionmaking is all over the place and holding it back. :/
E:
On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining?
It's kinda hard to compare... for most foreigners the most important part of going to korea/ competing in GSL is actually just being able to practice in a korean teamhouse environment I'd wager... so the month won't be wasted anyways
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On August 17 2011 21:52 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 21:43 Psycosquirrel wrote:
I've kinda had enough of the korean teams as well. The MVP coach is basically demanding special treatment from NASL, solely because they're korean. My interpretation is that the koreans have realized that they're stock is very high in the foreign community right now, and they are using that as leverage to get better deals out of tournaments.
What about europeans who come over? Lots of them don't have excellent English skills. And with the tornament in california, many of them will need to fly almost as far or farther than koreans. Yet the MVP coach doesn't seem too concerned with them.
Could the NASL have run their finals better? Yes, of course. The timing issue of koreans needing to be up late is a problem, but honestly with the global nature of the NASL there really isn't a way around it. Either a korean wakes up early to play, or the entire NASL production crew needs to either get up super early/late. the whole point of a coach is to take care of their members. The koreans have the best players so from their pov and most peoples' pov, they are the players that people wanna watch the most (TL POLLS CONFIRMS THIS!). the best players should get special treatment because nasl gets extra viewers and money because of korean players. that's a fact. if u want nasl to become a world class big tournament to rival gsl, you need to make those sacrifices. no point whining about a coach who is doing his job in order to get players the best treatment.
lol korean players should get special treatment haha what kind of fecking sport do you want. If you get you wish this would be the only sport in the world where some players get special treatment really
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On August 17 2011 22:13 paloo wrote:So much of this simply comes down to communication problems, it's just sad :/ NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in KoreaWith this I agree very much tho, NASL really should get their act together concerning their website. While posting stuff on TL absolutely makes sense, I feel official announcements/statements should be posted on the nasl.tv site first and foremost, and it seems like NASL has abandoned that practice almost completely. The official website is totally outdated and imo this gives NASL a really bad impression. If you visited the homepage right now you'd think all the korean players are still competing, Player/Team sites still are from S1 (hi ROOT gaming), and none of the recent news can be found. It's just bad and I can see why people would think of NASL as an amateurish organisation. :/ I don't think this whole Korean player debacle should be blamed on NASL entirely, but I think alot things need to change in their organisation, the league definitely has potential, but bad management/ decisionmaking is all over the place and holding it back. :/ E: Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining? It's kinda hard to compare... for most foreigners the most important part of going to korea/ competing in GSL is actually just being able to practice in a korean teamhouse environment I'd wager... so the month won't be wasted anyways
that is true but when GSL started there was no GOM house and the only foreign house was the oGs-TL house so anyone else who wanted to go had a huge commitment on their hands where as when NASL started its about a $1k , and considering nasl said they would deduct it from winnings you aren't losing any money at all, and what a week in the US for the finals?
i just think that they need to see that the nasl is still a baby the GSL open season 2 wasn't exactly a symbol of perfection but they expect the nasl season 2 to be everything they want?
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I dont understand what there is to debate. They should NOT have waited till the last minute to get out.
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On August 17 2011 12:51 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Treat us like the rock stars that we are, OK?" I'm sure they want free steak dinners and limo service thrown in too. When YOU are in foreign country, it would be nice if your host picks you up from the airport. They just want to be treated like a guest, not a rock star. So please dont insult their simple request...you are only insulting your own intelligence and manner.
So you get picked up by your hotel's manager when you go on holiday?
Ive posted this before in the other thread but the koreans "fame" is getting to their heads, they expect to be treated like kings, for what? do europeans get this same treatment? haha...
Koreans threw their toys out the prams because they didnt get what they want, seriously. calling a cab to get to the venue is that hard? They dont have a translator with them or speak good enough english? Its ridiculous.
If they didnt have a translator then i would consider NASL sending one to help them, completely within reason, providing a bloody chauffer for them and "rolling out the red carpet" is damn ridiculous, the koreans in question need to pull their heads out their ... if you ask me
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I'm kind of chuckling right now. For much of NASL's original thread, posters who were whtie-knighting the Koreans kept saying how biased the article was. Bias doesn't hide the truth - Koreans reneged on signed contracts.
Second, the MVP coach has only an outsider perspective on the situation. He has all the bias, and none of the facts. He certainly has the hearsay (ting shuo) - which means, woot, he gets to spread biased information to counter NASL's initial announcement. Um, yay? Are we seriously celebrating an outsider's perspective on this?
The two qualifying tournaments for NASL Season 2 were held before the finals, so many Koreans eager to qualify at that time found themselves starting to reconsider their decision once they heard the trouble their countrymen had during their trip. That does not explain the signing of contracts, but as a third party Choi had no information on that topic.
Choi has no explanation and is a 3rd party, but what the heck, let him rant against the NASL anyway right? And to add insult to injury, now he wants NASL to apologize, when the Koreans pulled out super last minute, and I emphasize, reneging on signed contracts? Choi complains that NASL posting their comments on TL was "extremely amateurish in Korea". And how do you think the last minute nature of all Korean teams pulling out of NASL looks to Americans?
And to finish this off, after Choi's biased viewpoints, he tries to renege on his antagonism towards NASL:
Coach Choi hoped that his comments will not cause controversy, as he wants both sides to reach an amicable conclusion to the disagreement.
-_-
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On August 17 2011 22:28 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:51 ninjamyst wrote:On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Treat us like the rock stars that we are, OK?" I'm sure they want free steak dinners and limo service thrown in too. When YOU are in foreign country, it would be nice if your host picks you up from the airport. They just want to be treated like a guest, not a rock star. So please dont insult their simple request...you are only insulting your own intelligence and manner. So you get picked up by your hotel's manager when you go on holiday? Ive posted this before in the other thread but the koreans "fame" is getting to their heads, they expect to be treated like kings, for what? do europeans get this same treatment? haha... Koreans threw their toys out the prams because they didnt get what they want, seriously. calling a cab to get to the venue is that hard? They dont have a translator with them or speak good enough english? Its ridiculous. If they didnt have a translator then i would consider NASL sending one to help them, completely within reason, providing a bloody chauffer for them and "rolling out the red carpet" is damn ridiculous, the koreans in question need to pull their heads out their ... if you ask me
No one is saying the NASL should roll out the red carpet. But they can step up do what the GSL has done, if they're going to be throwing out these huge prize pools.
Consider what GOM has done to make Foreigners' lives easier when they do come to Korea to participate in the GSL. You got on many occassions Torch picking up specific foreigners from the Airport. You got GOM providing selected foreigners a Team House where they can stay and practice. You got the MLG/GSL exchange where players' expenses are paid for.
The NASL has a lot of work to do, not only on the production side of things, but as well as protecting its players. There's a mutual benefit relationship to be had here. Korean players bring in huge viewers and higher level of play. Methinks if the NASL can find a way to get Korean players over, it'll benefit not only them, but everyone.
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These Koreans are acting like a bunch of pussy babies. They signed up to play the games, and they backed out last minute, therefore the onus is 100% on them. They can't expect every tournament to bend over backwards for them (and let's be honest, these weren't all top-tier Nestea/IMMVP-caliber players-- these were Code B losers from ZeNEX nobody has ever heard of), and if they DO want special concessions to be made, they need to address those issues BEFORE they sign the contracts.
Truthfully, this is the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. People foreign to North America are invited to sign up and participate, but if they choose not to, that is alright with me. I'll be watching anyway, because I enjoy most of the home-grown NA and European talent that WILL be participating. The Koreans need to get off their high-horses; if they don't want to participate they don't have to. Go linger in Code F and fade into obscurity and leave the huge potential prizes at NASL and other foreign tournaments on the table. I'd rather see Idra or Destiny and Nerchio or Dimaga win (just not a terran or protoss ) than some dewey from Korea.
Just my opinions plz no ban me keke thx
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this feels pretty hypocrtical to me, firstly he bashs NASL for posting on Teamliquid first, but didnt TSL do the exact same thing?
secondly he complains about how NASL isnt being very nice about not picking them up but isnt 2000 dollar travel expence plenty? and i dont think anyone even asked for such a thing im sure NASL could have obliged that if they asked
thirdly wasnt it the Korean teams who should offer an apology for leaving at the last minute?
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On August 17 2011 22:13 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining? Here's a question: When you were in your very early twenties or teens, did you personally have a grand to throw about? I know I didn't, and I know they don't either. They don't have sponsors paying their way the way all the foreigners who've been to Korea do. And it's also worth noting that GOM bends over backwards to make foreigners lives easier when they do go to Korea.
unless i am mistaken NASL offered originally a thousand dollars for travel expenses and such and bumped it to 2000 dollars at there request which im sure should deal with any expenses incurred
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On August 17 2011 21:22 Adila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 20:48 ComaDose wrote:On August 17 2011 20:31 FlamingTurd wrote:
Sorry but the Koreans are definitely wrong here. They ask for way too much, much more than other tournaments are ever willing to give, and then once they get almost everything they leave right before the season is supposed to start and AFTER signing contracts. no other tournaments offer more.... like... THE GSL they give you a fucking house to live in. i think they earned to right to get picked up at the airport and have a place to stay. i don't really blame the NASL for anything but hopefully they can be more generous, the price of two hotel rooms is negligible in the overall budget. honestly what is with the deal with the deposit. He said it well when he said it shows distrust in the players. Why even bring up the GOM house? The GSL tournament can potentially be a MONTH long thing for a player. How do you expect a foreigner to live in SK? GOM has to provide some sort of housing or it would be even more difficult for foreigners to go.
Because he said they ask for way too much that other tournaments are not willing to give. But the GSL does.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 17 2011 22:13 paloo wrote:So much of this simply comes down to communication problems, it's just sad :/ NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in KoreaWith this I agree very much tho, NASL really should get their act together concerning their website. While posting stuff on TL absolutely makes sense, I feel official announcements/statements should be posted on the nasl.tv site first and foremost, and it seems like NASL has abandoned that practice almost completely. The official website is totally outdated and imo this gives NASL a really bad impression. If you visited the homepage right now you'd think all the korean players are still competing, Player/Team sites still are from S1 (hi ROOT gaming), and none of the recent news can be found. It's just bad and I can see why people would think of NASL as an amateurish organisation. :/ I don't think this whole Korean player debacle should be blamed on NASL entirely, but I think alot things need to change in their organisation, the league definitely has potential, but bad management/ decisionmaking is all over the place and holding it back. :/ E: Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining? It's kinda hard to compare... for most foreigners the most important part of going to korea/ competing in GSL is actually just being able to practice in a korean teamhouse environment I'd wager... so the month won't be wasted anyways
I disagree. I think it should have also been posted on their website but there's nothing wrong with posting on TL.
The thing is, the original post was nothing more than announcement. When you see it for what it is, it makes sense why it was on TL...people make announcements on TL. Where did EG make their announcement? How about IPL?
Just because the announcement is not super happy and doesn't make you excited doesn't mean it shouldn't be announced on a forum where the most people are likely to see it.
ALSO: If any of you saw FXO's original post, wouldn't you say that's worse and sullied the Koreans 50x worse? Yet most of the people there are saying "Fxo thanks for your transparancy."
Seriously I don't see why NASL is being expected to act differently than anyone else. They did what anyone else would have done.
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On August 17 2011 21:43 Psycosquirrel wrote:
I've kinda had enough of the korean teams as well. The MVP coach is basically demanding special treatment from NASL, solely because they're korean. My interpretation is that the koreans have realized that they're stock is very high in the foreign community right now, and they are using that as leverage to get better deals out of tournaments.
What about europeans who come over? Lots of them don't have excellent English skills. And with the tornament in california, many of them will need to fly almost as far or farther than koreans. Yet the MVP coach doesn't seem too concerned with them.
Fun fact: They have already been successfull with their action, since the IPL 3 league will cover flight and accomodation costs for some players. You can bet what players that will be...
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FnaticXeris just screws everything up and just tries to shift the blame anywhere and everywhere else. NASL please get rid off him. He is an extremely rude and immature individual who is very incompetent.
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On August 17 2011 22:40 Forikorder wrote:
this feels pretty hypocrtical to me, firstly he bashs NASL for posting on Teamliquid first, but didnt TSL do the exact same thing?
secondly he complains about how NASL isnt being very nice about not picking them up but isnt 2000 dollar travel expence plenty? and i dont think anyone even asked for such a thing im sure NASL could have obliged that if they asked
thirdly wasnt it the Korean teams who should offer an apology for leaving at the last minute?
It IS hypocritical. "Hey NASL apologize for recieving miscommunication from middle-men. I know that's our fault for making a decision to breach your contract and deciding we didn't feel like telling you directly, but that doesn't matter!"
I'm sorry, but the way they handled contracts and even worse, the way they handled negotiations is unprofessional. IF NASL should apologize, so should they.
Don't get defensive and start blaming NASL just because people are calling it like it is, and you're receiving due criticism. That's not NASL's fault, their original post was nothing more than an announcement. If people are criticizing you, perhaps you did something wrong.
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On August 17 2011 22:46 Dexx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 21:43 Psycosquirrel wrote:
I've kinda had enough of the korean teams as well. The MVP coach is basically demanding special treatment from NASL, solely because they're korean. My interpretation is that the koreans have realized that they're stock is very high in the foreign community right now, and they are using that as leverage to get better deals out of tournaments.
What about europeans who come over? Lots of them don't have excellent English skills. And with the tornament in california, many of them will need to fly almost as far or farther than koreans. Yet the MVP coach doesn't seem too concerned with them.
Fun fact: They have already been successfull with their action, since the IPL 3 league will cover flight and accomodation costs for some players. You can bet what players that will be...
i believe that it will be only the invited palyers...? or am i thinking blizzard?
as for the Gom house, the GSL offers housing becuase they partnered with MLG right? and only becuase of what MLG did in return if someone like IdrA went over to Korea he couldnt go live in the gom house for free he would need to find his own accomodations so Koreans expect there way to be paid 100% but they only offer to pay others way into the GSL if they do really really well at MLG
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I really have a hard time trying to understand why the Korean teams feel they NEED the best accommodations just to compete. And what is wrong with a deposit when you get it back at the end of the season. If you don't get part of that back, it's because YOU violated a rule. NASL also offered $2000 in traveling funds for each Korean player who qualifies if I remember right.
I feel NASL has done enough for all the players and it is honestly their loss if they choose not to compete. I would like to see some Koreans in the tournament, but so be it. I'll still watch NASL when I can and I hope that there can be some kind of agreement soon.
Simple opinion: I think the Korean teams are asking for a little much. To have EVERYTHING paid for by the tournament is. . . outlandish. I know sponsorships in the west are a little more generous and numerous than they are in Korea, but I guess that's why we see Koreans joining foreigner teams I believe the root of all the Koreans "requests" is due to sponsor limitations. It is a far more limited sponsor market over there and I understand that, but what I say to you my dear Koreans is that you are going to have to sacrifice some to earn some. Have faith in your players, train hard, learn to pay out of your pocket every now and then for big opportunity and exposure.
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On August 17 2011 22:46 Dexx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 21:43 Psycosquirrel wrote:
I've kinda had enough of the korean teams as well. The MVP coach is basically demanding special treatment from NASL, solely because they're korean. My interpretation is that the koreans have realized that they're stock is very high in the foreign community right now, and they are using that as leverage to get better deals out of tournaments.
What about europeans who come over? Lots of them don't have excellent English skills. And with the tornament in california, many of them will need to fly almost as far or farther than koreans. Yet the MVP coach doesn't seem too concerned with them.
Fun fact: They have already been successfull with their action, since the IPL 3 league will cover flight and accomodation costs for some players. You can bet what players that will be...
You have to read the fine print of IPL 3. They give flight and accommodation for top 2.
NASL's offer is still better if you are looking to bring over 15 Koreans.
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On August 17 2011 22:53 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:46 Dexx wrote:On August 17 2011 21:43 Psycosquirrel wrote:
I've kinda had enough of the korean teams as well. The MVP coach is basically demanding special treatment from NASL, solely because they're korean. My interpretation is that the koreans have realized that they're stock is very high in the foreign community right now, and they are using that as leverage to get better deals out of tournaments.
What about europeans who come over? Lots of them don't have excellent English skills. And with the tornament in california, many of them will need to fly almost as far or farther than koreans. Yet the MVP coach doesn't seem too concerned with them.
Fun fact: They have already been successfull with their action, since the IPL 3 league will cover flight and accomodation costs for some players. You can bet what players that will be... You have to read the fine print of IPL 3. They give flight and accommodation for top 2. NASL's offer is still better if you are looking to bring over 15 Koreans.
IPL3 is also guranteed 1000$ prize money too though
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On August 17 2011 22:52 SCPenguin wrote:Simple opinion: I think the Korean teams are asking for a little much. To have EVERYTHING paid for by the tournament is. . . outlandish. I know sponsorships in the west are a little more generous and numerous than they are in Korea, but I guess that's why we see Koreans joining foreigner teams
That's what it comes down to. Beggers shouldn't be choosers.
$2000 should be enough money (and for those saying "it's only 1000!" it's not...the $1000 minimum prize was added AFTER as part of the offer to get Koreans back, and it's just semantics calling it prize pool...NASL expects it will be used for travel expense so even if you don't win any of the larger prizes you do get at least $1000 that you can use with your $1000 travel stipend.
Why would you really need more than $2000? Even if you go over, it's only by $100 and $200. And if Korean teams can't afford even that much, despite participating in a tournament that is likely to land them international sponsors and they have a good shot at finals...well that's pretty bad and has nothing to do with NASL and more to do with wtf team managers in Korea are doing.
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On August 17 2011 22:55 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:53 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 22:46 Dexx wrote:On August 17 2011 21:43 Psycosquirrel wrote:
I've kinda had enough of the korean teams as well. The MVP coach is basically demanding special treatment from NASL, solely because they're korean. My interpretation is that the koreans have realized that they're stock is very high in the foreign community right now, and they are using that as leverage to get better deals out of tournaments.
What about europeans who come over? Lots of them don't have excellent English skills. And with the tornament in california, many of them will need to fly almost as far or farther than koreans. Yet the MVP coach doesn't seem too concerned with them.
Fun fact: They have already been successfull with their action, since the IPL 3 league will cover flight and accomodation costs for some players. You can bet what players that will be... You have to read the fine print of IPL 3. They give flight and accommodation for top 2. NASL's offer is still better if you are looking to bring over 15 Koreans. IPL3 is also guranteed 1000$ prize money too though
NASL is guaranteeing all 16 players a minimum $1000 prize pool. I'm just saying from a Koreans perspective, which do you have a greater shot of winning...the tournament where you bring 2 Koreans or 15? 15 of course.
So you want to bring as many Koreans, which makes NASL a better deal.
Somehow I'm not sure Korean teams understand this? It seems like they don't understand/are aware of a lot of what NASL is offering.
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On August 17 2011 22:45 whateverpeeps wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 17 2011 22:13 paloo wrote:So much of this simply comes down to communication problems, it's just sad :/ NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in KoreaWith this I agree very much tho, NASL really should get their act together concerning their website. While posting stuff on TL absolutely makes sense, I feel official announcements/statements should be posted on the nasl.tv site first and foremost, and it seems like NASL has abandoned that practice almost completely. The official website is totally outdated and imo this gives NASL a really bad impression. If you visited the homepage right now you'd think all the korean players are still competing, Player/Team sites still are from S1 (hi ROOT gaming), and none of the recent news can be found. It's just bad and I can see why people would think of NASL as an amateurish organisation. :/ I don't think this whole Korean player debacle should be blamed on NASL entirely, but I think alot things need to change in their organisation, the league definitely has potential, but bad management/ decisionmaking is all over the place and holding it back. :/ E: Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining? It's kinda hard to compare... for most foreigners the most important part of going to korea/ competing in GSL is actually just being able to practice in a korean teamhouse environment I'd wager... so the month won't be wasted anyways I disagree. I think it should have also been posted on their website but there's nothing wrong with posting on TL. The thing is, the original post was nothing more than announcement. When you see it for what it is, it makes sense why it was on TL...people make announcements on TL. Where did EG make their announcement? How about IPL? Just because the announcement is not super happy and doesn't make you excited doesn't mean it shouldn't be announced on a forum where the most people are likely to see it. ALSO: If any of you saw FXO's original post, wouldn't you say that's worse and sullied the Koreans 50x worse? Yet most of the people there are saying "Fxo thanks for your transparancy." Seriously I don't see why NASL is being expected to act differently than anyone else. They did what anyone else would have done.
To clarify, I don't mean to say "don't post your news on TL" what I meant to say is "don't post your news on TL _only_"... I agree that posting sc2 related news on TL is pretty much necessesary if you want people to know what's going on, but it shouldn't be the only website to get that information. IPL/EG posts stuff on their own websites or at least official twitter channels in addition to TL, while NASL seems to post stuff only on TL, that's what I'm getting at. It shouldn't be mandatory to visit this website to get up to date information about NASL.
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On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
Im reposting because no one seems to read it. NASL provided travel to and from the airport. I can understand not liking the deposit or the play times, but will people please stop complaining about how the koreans got stranded at LAX with nothing but the clothes on their back.
P.S. That last part is an exaggeration.
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On August 17 2011 23:03 paloo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:45 whateverpeeps wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 17 2011 22:13 paloo wrote:So much of this simply comes down to communication problems, it's just sad :/ NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in KoreaWith this I agree very much tho, NASL really should get their act together concerning their website. While posting stuff on TL absolutely makes sense, I feel official announcements/statements should be posted on the nasl.tv site first and foremost, and it seems like NASL has abandoned that practice almost completely. The official website is totally outdated and imo this gives NASL a really bad impression. If you visited the homepage right now you'd think all the korean players are still competing, Player/Team sites still are from S1 (hi ROOT gaming), and none of the recent news can be found. It's just bad and I can see why people would think of NASL as an amateurish organisation. :/ I don't think this whole Korean player debacle should be blamed on NASL entirely, but I think alot things need to change in their organisation, the league definitely has potential, but bad management/ decisionmaking is all over the place and holding it back. :/ E: Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining? It's kinda hard to compare... for most foreigners the most important part of going to korea/ competing in GSL is actually just being able to practice in a korean teamhouse environment I'd wager... so the month won't be wasted anyways I disagree. I think it should have also been posted on their website but there's nothing wrong with posting on TL. The thing is, the original post was nothing more than announcement. When you see it for what it is, it makes sense why it was on TL...people make announcements on TL. Where did EG make their announcement? How about IPL? Just because the announcement is not super happy and doesn't make you excited doesn't mean it shouldn't be announced on a forum where the most people are likely to see it. ALSO: If any of you saw FXO's original post, wouldn't you say that's worse and sullied the Koreans 50x worse? Yet most of the people there are saying "Fxo thanks for your transparancy." Seriously I don't see why NASL is being expected to act differently than anyone else. They did what anyone else would have done. To clarify, I don't mean to say "don't post your news on TL" what I meant to say is "don't post your news on TL _only_"... I agree that posting sc2 related news on TL is pretty much necessesary if you want people to know what's going on, but it shouldn't be the only website to get that information. IPL/EG posts stuff on their websites or at least official twitter channels in addition to TL, while NASL seems to post stuff only on TL, that's what I'm getting at. It shouldn't be mandatory to visit this website to get up to date information about NASL.
Oh yeah that I agree with. That's one thing lacking on NASL website...no place for announcements unless you count news articles.
Do you think Koreans would have responded differently though had NASL posted on website first and then TL?
I feel like this is the result of the backlash of the public making them defensive and wanting to clear their name, not so much about where NASL posted it. I think they expect/wish NASL hadn't posted it at all, which is unfair as NASL is obligated to make an announcement on this.
If you put someone in a situation where thy have to make a sad announcement, then you can't be mad when they do.
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Why would they even bother to accommodate koreans ?
If their teams want to send them to tournaments, they can do it....
And LOL (LOLOLOLOL) and koreans accusing foreigners (nasl in this case) of professionalism!
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On August 17 2011 23:05 rwadams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Im reposting because no one seems to read it. NASL provided travel to and from the airport. I can understand not liking the deposit or the play times, but will people please stop complaining about how the koreans got stranded at LAX with nothing but the clothes on their back. P.S. That last part is an exaggeration.
i didnt know this and it only makes the Koreans even more hypocrits since that was one of the points MVP said should change
so they arrange transport, give them 2000$ for any expenses, and a good shot at 50k and they turn it down at the last minute? sad and unporffesional
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The thing that always bugged me about NASL was that it seemed to cater to the casters and not the players. When you want players to compete from all over the globe, you have to accommodate them. There is no reason NASL should insist on broadcasting live. If they would just broadcast from replays, that would help the players out tremendously. Then if 2 players are scheduled for a certain time, they can discuss with each other to change the time if needed based on their schedule. Making Koreans get up at 4am, then making them wait 2 hours to play sucks a lot. I would not agree to that if I were them.
It was also crappy of NASL to insinuate they offered to increase the travel stipend to $2000 when really that was just decreasing the winnings so it's ends up being the same. I have no doubt it cost well over $2000 to travel from Korea to the US for a tournament. That's why it was such a big deal that MLG paid for Koreans to come. As far as I know, Koreans loved their MLG experience. Why can't NASL do what MLG does for their players?
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On August 17 2011 23:05 rwadams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Im reposting because no one seems to read it. NASL provided travel to and from the airport. I can understand not liking the deposit or the play times, but will people please stop complaining about how the koreans got stranded at LAX with nothing but the clothes on their back. P.S. That last part is an exaggeration.
Yeah, just to build on my post from the previous page...what is the point of Coach Choi's interview here? He was a 3rd party who was uninvolved and is only speaking from rumors and hearsay. Seems to me his purpose is purely to antagonize, which made his closing mark on reconciliation quite funny.
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On August 17 2011 23:08 wolverinehokie wrote:
The thing that always bugged me about NASL was that it seemed to cater to the casters and not the players. When you want players to compete from all over the globe, you have to accommodate them. There is no reason NASL should insist on broadcasting live. If they would just broadcast from replays, that would help the players out tremendously. Then if 2 players are scheduled for a certain time, they can discuss with each other to change the time if needed based on their schedule. Making Koreans get up at 4am, then making them wait 2 hours to play sucks a lot. I would not agree to that if I were them.
It was also crappy of NASL to insinuate they offered to increase the travel stipend to $2000 when really that was just decreasing the winnings so it's ends up being the same. I have no doubt it cost well over $2000 to travel from Korea to the US for a tournament. That's why it was such a big deal that MLG paid for Koreans to come. As far as I know, Koreans loved their MLG experience. Why can't NASL do what MLG does for their players?
MLG only does it becuase they know they dont offer the prize pool needed to get Koreans, they know bringing koreans raises the viewer count and they know what the GSL offered in return would increase viewers even more
unless im mistaken though dont they only pay for the 4 invites via the exchange program?
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Ok, I got some words. This guy has balls. First: Foreigners who are not given a ticket into code S have to deal with all the shit (language barrier, accomodations) that koreans deal with in foreign tournies except worse. No organization should have to completely pay for players to come to their tournament where they will likely win it and be rich. What is wrong with NASL posting their opinion in TL, where most of their fans gather and are going to undoubtedly wonder why their favorite koreans are gone? Im getting tired of their attitudes. Its like their saying: "were the best players in the world, if you want us to grace you with our presence than do EVERYTHING for us" "but if you come here, we'll do some things for you. If you dont like our demands, we dont care cause we already know that we'd win anyway".
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On August 17 2011 23:11 DyEnasTy wrote:
Ok, I got some words. This guy has balls. First: Foreigners who are not given a ticket into code S have to deal with all the shit (language barrier, accomodations) that koreans deal with in foreign tournies except worse. No organization should have to completely pay for players to come to their tournament where they will likely win it and be rich. What is wrong with NASL posting their opinion in TL, where most of their fans gather and are going to undoubtedly wonder why their favorite koreans are gone? Im getting tired of their attitudes. Its like their saying: "were the best players in the world, if you want us to grace you with our presence than do EVERYTHING for us" "but if you come here, we'll do some things for you. If you dont like our demands, we dont care cause we already know that we'd win anyway".
This is a good point.
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On August 17 2011 23:08 wolverinehokie wrote:
The thing that always bugged me about NASL was that it seemed to cater to the casters and not the players. When you want players to compete from all over the globe, you have to accommodate them. There is no reason NASL should insist on broadcasting live. If they would just broadcast from replays, that would help the players out tremendously. Then if 2 players are scheduled for a certain time, they can discuss with each other to change the time if needed based on their schedule. Making Koreans get up at 4am, then making them wait 2 hours to play sucks a lot. I would not agree to that if I were them.
It was also crappy of NASL to insinuate they offered to increase the travel stipend to $2000 when really that was just decreasing the winnings so it's ends up being the same. I have no doubt it cost well over $2000 to travel from Korea to the US for a tournament. That's why it was such a big deal that MLG paid for Koreans to come. As far as I know, Koreans loved their MLG experience. Why can't NASL do what MLG does for their players?
I don't think it's fair for the entire studio to change their working schedule for a few players, even if they are Koreans.
It takes hundreds if not thousands of dollars to run a studio. I know cause my gf works in one.
Besides, the times were changed to be more accommodating to Koreans after speaking to the players for Season 2 so that's not even a point of discussion.
And even if they still had to wake up at 4 am, that's kind of part your job description. We regular folk can complain about that but it's expected of global players. I complain about having to drive a long distance, but hey, if I was a truck driver, that complaint becomes whiny because that's my job. If I didn't like it I shouldn't have become a truck driver!
"I have no doubt it cost well over $2000 to travel from Korea to the US for a tournament."
It doesn't unless you get business class and a nice hotel.
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On August 17 2011 23:10 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:05 rwadams wrote:On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Im reposting because no one seems to read it. NASL provided travel to and from the airport. I can understand not liking the deposit or the play times, but will people please stop complaining about how the koreans got stranded at LAX with nothing but the clothes on their back. P.S. That last part is an exaggeration. Yeah, just to build on my post from the previous page...what is the point of Coach Choi's interview here? He was a 3rd party who was uninvolved and is only speaking from rumors and hearsay. Seems to me his purpose is purely to antagonize, which made his closing mark on reconciliation quite funny.
Exactly. And it seems like one of NASL's biggest complaints/pleas was that this decision was reached but nobody who was involved in making the decision came to them directly.
They asked whoever was involved to speak to them so they can resolve issues. Instead of taking that invite, MVP felt the need to post this public, despite not being in the negotiations nor a part of season 1?
He is only basing it on hearsay, and it seems everything he heard wasn't exactly true and was exaggerated.
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Poor BoxeR had to wait and suffer 3 walkovers
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On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about.
Well if that's them focusing on production and broadcast then I'd rather see them spend their efforts on players. When I player is taken care of his condition is better and thus his games are better. I don't want to see Koreans come to NASL and give us horrible games. I'm sure they could trim a little money off of their gigantic prize pools to accommodate players better.
Fans care about quality of games, and that comes from quality of players. You do what you have to to get the best in the world into your tournament. IPL had absolutely fantastic production, but I barely watched it because it didn't have Koreans playing. Last season in the NASL I mostly only watched Korean games. It's what made the grand finals last year so thrilling. Good games and good players.
Do you really think there will be the same excitement if the grand finals have a bunch of North Americans and Europeans in it?
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On August 17 2011 23:06 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:03 paloo wrote:On August 17 2011 22:45 whateverpeeps wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 17 2011 22:13 paloo wrote:So much of this simply comes down to communication problems, it's just sad :/ NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in KoreaWith this I agree very much tho, NASL really should get their act together concerning their website. While posting stuff on TL absolutely makes sense, I feel official announcements/statements should be posted on the nasl.tv site first and foremost, and it seems like NASL has abandoned that practice almost completely. The official website is totally outdated and imo this gives NASL a really bad impression. If you visited the homepage right now you'd think all the korean players are still competing, Player/Team sites still are from S1 (hi ROOT gaming), and none of the recent news can be found. It's just bad and I can see why people would think of NASL as an amateurish organisation. :/ I don't think this whole Korean player debacle should be blamed on NASL entirely, but I think alot things need to change in their organisation, the league definitely has potential, but bad management/ decisionmaking is all over the place and holding it back. :/ E: Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:04 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but am I the only one that thinks all of this is pathetic? to compete in NASL you need nothing except some weird hours to play, until you get to the final event NOW lets compare
-GSL
-need 1 month minimum to LIVE in Korea
-might not even qualify so your month gets wasted
-literally NO money for code A, NEED code s to even hope to make any sort of attempt to make back money spent
-NASL
-ability to play games at weird hours of the day
-about 1 grand to fly out considering NASL PAYS part of it
who should be complaining? It's kinda hard to compare... for most foreigners the most important part of going to korea/ competing in GSL is actually just being able to practice in a korean teamhouse environment I'd wager... so the month won't be wasted anyways I disagree. I think it should have also been posted on their website but there's nothing wrong with posting on TL. The thing is, the original post was nothing more than announcement. When you see it for what it is, it makes sense why it was on TL...people make announcements on TL. Where did EG make their announcement? How about IPL? Just because the announcement is not super happy and doesn't make you excited doesn't mean it shouldn't be announced on a forum where the most people are likely to see it. ALSO: If any of you saw FXO's original post, wouldn't you say that's worse and sullied the Koreans 50x worse? Yet most of the people there are saying "Fxo thanks for your transparancy." Seriously I don't see why NASL is being expected to act differently than anyone else. They did what anyone else would have done. To clarify, I don't mean to say "don't post your news on TL" what I meant to say is "don't post your news on TL _only_"... I agree that posting sc2 related news on TL is pretty much necessesary if you want people to know what's going on, but it shouldn't be the only website to get that information. IPL/EG posts stuff on their websites or at least official twitter channels in addition to TL, while NASL seems to post stuff only on TL, that's what I'm getting at. It shouldn't be mandatory to visit this website to get up to date information about NASL. Oh yeah that I agree with. That's one thing lacking on NASL website...no place for announcements unless you count news articles. Do you think Koreans would have responded differently though had NASL posted on website first and then TL? I feel like this is the result of the backlash of the public making them defensive and wanting to clear their name, not so much about where NASL posted it. I think they expect/wish NASL hadn't posted it at all, which is unfair as NASL is obligated to make an announcement on this. If you put someone in a situation where thy have to make a sad announcement, then you can't be mad when they do.
No I don't think it would have changed much in this situation, I just wanted to point it out as one of those many smaller flaws that add to the overall unprofessional appearance of NASL.
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On August 17 2011 23:21 fire_brand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about. Well if that's them focusing on production and broadcast then I'd rather see them spend their efforts on players. When I player is taken care of his condition is better and thus his games are better. I don't want to see Koreans come to NASL and give us horrible games. I'm sure they could trim a little money off of their gigantic prize pools to accommodate players better. Fans care about quality of games, and that comes from quality of players. You do what you have to to get the best in the world into your tournament. IPL had absolutely fantastic production, but I barely watched it because it didn't have Koreans playing. Last season in the NASL I mostly only watched Korean games. It's what made the grand finals last year so thrilling. Good games and good players. Do you really think there will be the same excitement if the grand finals have a bunch of North Americans and Europeans in it?
how are they supposed to accomodate them more? the time doesnt have much wiggle room theres no way to make it convenient for everyone, theyre already offered 2000 dollars and transportation from the airport
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On August 17 2011 23:10 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:08 wolverinehokie wrote:
The thing that always bugged me about NASL was that it seemed to cater to the casters and not the players. When you want players to compete from all over the globe, you have to accommodate them. There is no reason NASL should insist on broadcasting live. If they would just broadcast from replays, that would help the players out tremendously. Then if 2 players are scheduled for a certain time, they can discuss with each other to change the time if needed based on their schedule. Making Koreans get up at 4am, then making them wait 2 hours to play sucks a lot. I would not agree to that if I were them.
It was also crappy of NASL to insinuate they offered to increase the travel stipend to $2000 when really that was just decreasing the winnings so it's ends up being the same. I have no doubt it cost well over $2000 to travel from Korea to the US for a tournament. That's why it was such a big deal that MLG paid for Koreans to come. As far as I know, Koreans loved their MLG experience. Why can't NASL do what MLG does for their players? MLG only does it becuase they know they dont offer the prize pool needed to get Koreans, they know bringing koreans raises the viewer count and they know what the GSL offered in return would increase viewers even more unless im mistaken though dont they only pay for the 4 invites via the exchange program?
MLG only pays for the 4 LXP players. With the SK-oGs & coL-MVP deals, as well as FXOpen, TL, EG and Fnatic all having Koreans on the teams, MLG will likely have more Korean nationals than the 4 LXP players, consistently.
But that's because the visibility is HUGE at an MLG. Which is why TL & EG having a huge chunk of players in the Pool Play is so important to them. The ROI they get is huge.
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I wonder if there was even a 10% return on the initial investment of the NASL, seems to really be falling apart now :<
The Koreans cite traditional differences but seem unwilling to adapt to the american situation when travelling over there, I agree NASL didn't handle communication well but unless stated beforehand they would be fed, accommodated and have to pay travel costs, maybe someone should have asked - especially since they were in a foreign country with different traditions and assumptions.
Both sides have some blame, NASL had bad communication but was accommodating when made aware of the situation. Koreans asking for an "apology" is childish. but playing at 2am in the season probably won't show their best games, and the differences in culture live may be too much right now. They're looking out for their own.
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there isnt any value in nasl, gooooooo korea
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On August 17 2011 23:05 rwadams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Im reposting because no one seems to read it. NASL provided travel to and from the airport. I can understand not liking the deposit or the play times, but will people please stop complaining about how the koreans got stranded at LAX with nothing but the clothes on their back. P.S. That last part is an exaggeration.
And I'm replying because too many people don't know the facts.
Yes, NASL arranged travel to and from the airport. AND players paid for them.
Before you say "but that's just what Koreans claiming!", that's what NASL said. Same with airfare and hotel.
Also, I have never heard about this story of Korean players left at LAX.
On August 13 2011 00:06 NASL.tv wrote:
3) This is completely false. The Korean teams expressed difficulty in attending the Grand Finals, so we offered to buy their tickets for them, and reserve their hotels for them, and arrange shuttle service for them. We spent $1,192 for each of the tickets we bought for Korean players (MC, Zenio, Squirtle, PuMa). Each hotel room cost $350, and the shuttle service to and from LAX airport averaged out to approximately $80 per players. We wrote, and had the letter translated into Korean, that we would be happy to do this for them to solve the problem of attending, and then deduct this from their travel stipends and prize. The four players who we bought tickets for expressly agreed to this. Moon, Boxer, July, and aLive made separate travel arrangements.
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On August 17 2011 22:52 SCPenguin wrote:I really have a hard time trying to understand why the Korean teams feel they NEED the best accommodations just to compete. And what is wrong with a deposit when you get it back at the end of the season. If you don't get part of that back, it's because YOU violated a rule. NASL also offered $2000 in traveling funds for each Korean player who qualifies if I remember right. ... Simple opinion: I think the Korean teams are asking for a little much. To have EVERYTHING paid for by the tournament is. . . outlandish. I know sponsorships in the west are a little more generous and numerous than they are in Korea, but I guess that's why we see Koreans joining foreigner teams I believe the root of all the Koreans "requests" is due to sponsor limitations. It is a far more limited sponsor market over there and I understand that, but what I say to you my dear Koreans is that you are going to have to sacrifice some to earn some. Have faith in your players, train hard, learn to pay out of your pocket every now and then for big opportunity and exposure.
Jeez people. have a little empathy for these teams. Sure, EG has the money to just buy players like PuMa and HuK but the Korean teams evidently don't have the sponsorship to just throw money around.
Not getting the deposit back after the first season (I think it was $250?) is much more serious than it sounds. Sure, they will get it back eventually, but in the mean time the teams have bills to pay and have to remain a functioning business.
In the first season there were something along the lines of 3-4 players from a team in the tournament. That $1000 is a significant investment, but obviously manageable or they would not have participated.
Now consider the second season. There are now significantly more qualified Korean players, many also coming from smaller teams (e.g. TSL). So now you may have an extra 1-2 players entering the league. But wait a minute, the deposit has DOUBLED. So you have to pay at least twice as much up front to enter the league, and you haven't got your deposit back AND the prizes haven't been distributed to the players yet (so previous players can't help pay for themselves, if they want to).
What's more, if you enter the players into the league, you won't be able to access a significant amount of money that you have invested into a league that may not give it back to you for another 4 or more months (9 week season + not returned at the end, assuming a similar situation happens at the end of season 2). This money could've been used to send players abroad for other tournaments, e.g. MLG, IEM.
So there's this enormous financial burden being put on Korean teams. You're saying the burden is worth the cost for all the exposure and success the teams and players are getting. Well factor in the cost of having such a disruptive schedule put in place for possibly several of your players for a 9 week season. I think this is one of the most important things that can be learned from the MVP coach's article - how disruptive the schedule was for the players. 4am starts affect sleeping habits, performance in GSL, team practice, team spirit - even more so when multiple players are affected. I can fully understand why teams wouldn't want their players damaging their own and their teams success in far more reputable leagues, i.e. GSL, for a far less reputable league in NASL.
It just doesn't make sense to commit so much for a league that, let's face it, is absolutely terribly organised. People say it improved massively over the season, but then how did they manage to have a finals with such a ridiculous amount of problems. As far as I can see, the only thing keeping NASL going is the huge monetary input, if it wasn't for that it would be a complete flop. Just ask yourself if you would have rather had that money going into 2 more TSLs instead of 1 NASL. Oh wait, it's a rhetorical question.
I guess I should also qualify this by saying that I don't want to completely hate on NASL. More tournaments = better for eSports. It's just that it was so terribly run I find it hard to credit anything except the huge sponsors.
Back to the original OP lol, thanks for posting the interview, I respect MVP more and more as a team these days.
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Im glad to see that they are still considering coming back for it, even if its not this season
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On August 17 2011 23:32 Faria wrote:
I wonder if there was even a 10% return on the initial investment of the NASL, seems to really be falling apart now :<
How are they falling apart?
No doubt, Koreans leaving will affect viewership rates, but there are still Koreans in NASL as well as other top players in the world.
I think one thing this will show the world and Korean management is that although they are important and do boost viewership ratings...they are not the end-all of any tournament, meaning they can't exactly go around threatening tournaments into meeting their demands.
That was clearly their goal, clearly why they waited 15 days to respond to offers (they responded after filming started). clearly expected by putting NASL up against the wall, they would be desperate and give in to any demands.
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a round trip flight and 5 nights in a 4-star hotel costs about $1500. Unless every Korean team is sending 2 people on this $2000, I don't understand their complaint about their travel stipend.. just check orbitz or expedia.
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On August 17 2011 23:38 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:32 Faria wrote:
I wonder if there was even a 10% return on the initial investment of the NASL, seems to really be falling apart now :< How are they falling apart? No doubt, Koreans leaving will affect viewership rates, but there are still Koreans in NASL as well as other top players in the world. I think one thing this will show the world and Korean management is that although they are important and do boost viewership ratings...they are not the end-all of any tournament, meaning they can't exactly go around threatening tournaments into meeting their demands. That was clearly their goal, clearly why they waited 15 days to respond to offers (they responded after filming started). clearly expected by putting NASL up against the wall, they would be desperate and give in to any demands.
We will never know if they are unless they release figures, do you expect their viewership to have gone up? I define "falling apart" in this setting as a mass loss of viewers and players...
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On August 17 2011 23:41 Faria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:38 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 23:32 Faria wrote:
I wonder if there was even a 10% return on the initial investment of the NASL, seems to really be falling apart now :< How are they falling apart? No doubt, Koreans leaving will affect viewership rates, but there are still Koreans in NASL as well as other top players in the world. I think one thing this will show the world and Korean management is that although they are important and do boost viewership ratings...they are not the end-all of any tournament, meaning they can't exactly go around threatening tournaments into meeting their demands. That was clearly their goal, clearly why they waited 15 days to respond to offers (they responded after filming started). clearly expected by putting NASL up against the wall, they would be desperate and give in to any demands. We will never know if they are unless they release figures, do you expect their viewership to have gone up? I define "falling apart" in this setting as a mass loss of viewers and players...
Idk if you saw, yesterday NASL did a random match. They stole the majority of viewers from all the other streams at that time including IPL even though it was their big announcement, even though it wasn't preannounced.
I think their viewership rates (which were already incredibly large) will get lower, but not low enough to destroy the tournament. Koreans have an effect, but not that large, and there are still Koreans in NASL (ones with foreign management not involved in this debacle).
If anything, this will continue making players leave Korean teams for foreign ones, making it worse for the Koreans than NASL.
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On August 17 2011 23:28 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:10 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2011 23:08 wolverinehokie wrote:
The thing that always bugged me about NASL was that it seemed to cater to the casters and not the players. When you want players to compete from all over the globe, you have to accommodate them. There is no reason NASL should insist on broadcasting live. If they would just broadcast from replays, that would help the players out tremendously. Then if 2 players are scheduled for a certain time, they can discuss with each other to change the time if needed based on their schedule. Making Koreans get up at 4am, then making them wait 2 hours to play sucks a lot. I would not agree to that if I were them.
It was also crappy of NASL to insinuate they offered to increase the travel stipend to $2000 when really that was just decreasing the winnings so it's ends up being the same. I have no doubt it cost well over $2000 to travel from Korea to the US for a tournament. That's why it was such a big deal that MLG paid for Koreans to come. As far as I know, Koreans loved their MLG experience. Why can't NASL do what MLG does for their players? MLG only does it becuase they know they dont offer the prize pool needed to get Koreans, they know bringing koreans raises the viewer count and they know what the GSL offered in return would increase viewers even more unless im mistaken though dont they only pay for the 4 invites via the exchange program? MLG only pays for the 4 LXP players. With the SK-oGs & coL-MVP deals, as well as FXOpen, TL, EG and Fnatic all having Koreans on the teams, MLG will likely have more Korean nationals than the 4 LXP players, consistently. But that's because the visibility is HUGE at an MLG. Which is why TL & EG having a huge chunk of players in the Pool Play is so important to them. The ROI they get is huge.
I find this kindof funny as well. For MLG they do get the 4 Koreans over, but all the rest that come are paying their own way and get nothing.
NASL is at least providing compensation for all involved yet people have made it sound like MLG is a hero with what they do. I'm sure NASL could fly over just the top 4 placing Koreans and really treat them well(free tickets, hotel, etc.) and tell the rest of the qualifying Koreans to figure it out on their own. And for the record, I'd much rather be in the 16 player single elimination NASL bracket, then fly to MLG and get placed in the open bracket. But both tournaments have their setup, they are both unique, and I personally hope and want to see IPL, NASL, MLG, GSL, IEM, etc. all do well. There is room for them all, not sure why people have to like pick their favorite tournament and slam others, they all are trying to do the same thing.
The thing is, every tournament is going to be different in what they are able to provide players and what their means are. I understand how the Koreans are trying to set the standards high and use that leverage, they are finally acting like what this is, a business, and they have every right to.
But I'm just sick of everything that happens on this forum being one sides fault or the other sides fault. In business, as in life, there isn't always someone to blame. I'm not sure at what point everyone lost the ability to just step back and say, "well that sucks for both sides there was a disagreement..." to "THEY ARE EVIL AND IT IS ALL THEIR FAULT!" I guess the internet created that effect. It's funny because we've had this slew of issues in SC2 between teams, leagues, players, etc. over the past few months and if you really dissect each one, usually nobody was to blame, it was simply a misunderstanding or two sides just not sharing the same point of view. Then everyone else hops in and picks sides when in reality there is no side to pick. That is what forces the sides involved to all the sudden get defensive.
At the end of the day, the only people who are really getting the shaft are the fans and the viewers. The sad thing is that will ultimately end up hurting eSports in the long run, and come back and bite everyone involved in the ass if they all can't clean shit up, work together, and keep things growing.
Time to quit the childish bullshit, and run eSports like a business and be big boys instead of acting in a way that just perpetuates what people outside eSports thinks it actually is.
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United Arab Emirates116 Posts
NASL is really making a laughing fool of themselves. They better shape up fast. Is incontorl out of NASL already? It's a good start. But more to go.
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I can see the view from the Korean teams.
I understand Frustration of that NASL is having and venting it out on TL.
But if they truely want to be a professional league, they need to do the things are necessary in order for the koreans to be comfortable with like MLG is doing.
Sigh... its such a sad scene to see NASL go down like this
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On August 18 2011 00:06 StarcraftKevin wrote:
I can see the view from the Korean teams.
I understand Frustration of that NASL is having and venting it out on TL.
But if they truely want to be a professional league, they need to do the things are necessary in order for the koreans to be comfortable with like MLG is doing.
Sigh... its such a sad scene to see NASL go down like this
They didn't vent anything!
They made an announcement stating what happened and that they are disappointed negotiations didn't succeed.
I'm sure they're a lot more frustrated than that.
I think there is room for improvement for NASL. But what about the teams? They have a long way to go for me (and international sponsors) to consider them professional businesses. Breaching contracts and conducting negotiations the way they did is not professional.
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So Xeris, how many alt accounts do you have on TL ?
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On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it?
Not on internet forums. They want to talk to a team then you talk to the teams designated representative. example ( MANAGER, COACH, OWNER. )
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Well to be fair, why should NASL wait on the Koreans? Why should they pay for them to come over and compete for $100,000? Are they entitled too a free trip to the tournament just because they are the best? My opinion is no. If a tournament wants to pay for everything like MLG does, congrats go to MLG. However, if a tournament decides they don't want to pay for everything, then its on the Koreans to make a choice. Honestly in my opinion, I am glad the North American Star League is more North American focused this time. I'm not going to not watch it due to lack of Koreans, I plan on catching as many games as I can.
Just my thoughts. This was also discussed on State of the Game last night by iNcontroL, who as you might know, worked with/on/for NASL last season.
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I think people need to realize that the culture is extremely different and my guess is most of this non-sense is simply a misunderstanding of eachothers cultures which is only amplified by the language barrier. It's a shame really. I think NASL and the Korean teams need to talk this out and quit posting stuff on TL until they fully understand what's going on, because all it does is fuel rumors and create drama where drama doesn't exist. If there going to post anything, post it on their own website and keep it brief. I wouldn't say a lot, and I would just let people talk or make up what they are going to make up... that's better than having these huge misconceptions among the koreans and NASL, which they always seem to figure out down the road, but during that time frame it seems like everyone is taking shots at eachother.
Just no good.
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United Arab Emirates116 Posts
"Amateur" is the word of this whole thing.
This is Season 1 catching up on them. They don't expect to mess it up so much in Season 1 and still profit from it in Season 2, right? Now way sir. This is it. You have to do the hard work first NASL.
At least some of those people who messed it up are already out. GL NASL.
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On August 18 2011 00:25 purecarnagge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it? Not on internet forums. They want to talk to a team then you talk to the teams designated representative. example ( MANAGER, COACH, OWNER. )
In their defense, and again, something people are not aware of beacuse the Koreans won't state it in their statements...there was no manager coach or owner to talk to, as tehy refused to talk about it, pretended they didn't know about it, pretended they didn't make the decision, even led NASL to believe sc2con was involved, and then sc2con said they weren't and team manager are.
You don't make it that hard to be contacted when running negotiations. You don't go through middle men and play telephone.
I have to do negotiating at my job. It's so incredibly frustrating when you don't have a claer contact, because each day you talk to someone else who starts back at square 1 and you have to spend time catching them up. And then, in hte Koreans case, they used a middle man who wasn't even involved with them, had nothing to do with the decision making process. How was he supposed to adequately represent the Korean side if he has no idea what's going on?
Why didn't team managers contact NASL directly?
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On August 17 2011 12:51 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Treat us like the rock stars that we are, OK?" I'm sure they want free steak dinners and limo service thrown in too. When YOU are in foreign country, it would be nice if your host picks you up from the airport. They just want to be treated like a guest, not a rock star. So please dont insult their simple request...you are only insulting your own intelligence and manner.
They don't do shit for foreigners playing in GSL. I don't see this as any different. NASL, no reason to spend exorbitant amounts of money on them. Any money is already going above and beyond in my opinion.
If the Koreans were secure in thinking they were as good as everyone says they are (which IMO, they are), they would know they would be bringing home prize money. I don't buy this "cultural differences" nonsense. There's a right and wrong. Sorry.
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It's pretty ridiculous from the Korean's side imo. Incontrol summed it up perfectly on SOTG when in brood war in america or whatever you went to tournaments for the chance to cover the costs of traveling.
Also how when they all go to MLG it's out of their own pocket. Koreans need to accept that but they won't.
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A bit petty to blame shuttle bus incident on nasl. I guess in hindsight, they should of had chaperone on bus with the koreans to make sure they arrived at point b. But you live and learn
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The Koreans ask for too much and get treated way too special in every event they participate in. I'm sorry but just because Korea has a deep history of BW and is the best at sc2 doesn't mean you need the red carpet rolled out for you every time you cross the ocean. No other gamers are treated the same way and eventually it will be seen as unfair and won't fly anyway. NASL made the right choice.
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On August 18 2011 00:41 Denzil wrote:
It's pretty ridiculous from the Korean's side imo. Incontrol summed it up perfectly on SOTG when in brood war in america or whatever you went to tournaments for the chance to cover the costs of traveling.
Also how when they all go to MLG it's out of their own pocket. Koreans need to accept that but they won't.
If the expenses aren't paid for there are probably more worthwhile options in korea so they may as well stay there. This is probably why they want things to be paid for. Demand for the Koreans to be playing in foreign tournaments are also higher as they can provide a higher level of play. This means Koreans should be the ones determining the price.
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thx for sharing the article
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hehe thats cool. He generally said who cares about the viewers, do everything to get top players and the fanboys will follow unimportant how horrible everything else is. Sadly its true :3
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you gotta love Coach Choi... he says everything how it is!
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On August 18 2011 00:57 FeyFey wrote:
hehe thats cool. He generally said who cares about the viewers, do everything to get top players and the fanboys will follow unimportant how horrible everything else is. Sadly its true :3
Well, I am in no position to argue against it considering I gave the second day of the NASL finals a chance. ^^"
Anyways, I just wanted to point out that whatever ends up coming out of this business should apply to all players, not just the ones coming from Korea. With that in mind, it is not just "catering to the Koreans" as all participants of the NASL will benefit from it and they probably will be glad should their situation improve as a result of the outcome of this matter.
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I agree on one thing though. I personally like Xeris, his personality and effort on Esports (especially Regards with Cstarleague) but you(Xeris) should not really respond to everything in TL. Whether your action is right or not, every post or action will represent your organization. Regardless of your reason people will believe that it represent where you belong.
Of course, I do understand, he wants to clear up misunderstanding for people but the other organization (in this case, Korean teams) will think that you are taking advantages over them. Its best to clear up miscommunication directly throughout official statement.
I really think that Team is responsible in some way though. Even almost all Korean believe that making contract and breaking up is just not right. Believe me, Xeris, you have our support as well. Anyhow I hope this issue clear up. This look like drama, but it just happen, Starcraft ll just started.
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United Arab Emirates116 Posts
On August 18 2011 00:41 Denzil wrote:
It's pretty ridiculous from the Korean's side imo. Incontrol summed it up perfectly on SOTG when in brood war in america or whatever you went to tournaments for the chance to cover the costs of traveling.
Also how when they all go to MLG it's out of their own pocket. Koreans need to accept that but they won't.
NASL needs the Koreans to at least be credible, not the other way around.
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After the last season there where a lot of flaws but from the information given by Xeris as well as the korean coaches I don't think the handling of the foreign players is one of them.
If the koreans don't want to play in NASL then don't try to change their minds. If they don't want to take the chance to win a lot of money then they don't have to.
I will probably buy premium for the next season, with or without korean players.
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Obviously the Koreans don't have that many more amazing tournaments back in Korea that are offering huge prize pools or they would not be coming over at all. If it takes the tournament organizers paying for everything to get the Koreans to compete then I say screw um. If they don't want to compete for 40,000, then that's there own fault. If NA and EU players can get sponsors to travel to Korea and back and forth then what the heck are the Koreans doing to push those sponsors away, oh yeah, they're acting like spoiled brats who can't get a full ride plus the opportunity to win 1st prize. Other NA teams send there players to Korea and to EU and vice EU to NA, and I don't see them complaining about not getting treated like princes, so its obviously a specifically Korean thing. Get sponsors or use your own money won from tournaments like everyone else.
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I have lost a lot of respect for the Koreans with their greed and pettiness.
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On August 18 2011 01:31 Dub_doubt wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for the Koreans with their greed and pettiness.
I have lost a lot of respect for the Americans with their lack of respect for the Koreans.
See what I did there? Making generalizations is a very dangerous game. People die everyday because of generalizations.
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I don't think they have the right to complain about the schedule. They knew that was it when they signed up for it and it's called the north american starleague. Not the North american starleague played at 2pm kst.
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There must be something wrong with NASL if Korean teams are only pulling out from NASL and not from other major tournaments overseas. I doubt it's just money and shuttle transportation. There's something more troubling beneath all the noise.
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In every tournament for every sport I've ever been familiar with (not saying I'm all encompassing), Sponsors gets you to the tournament. If you don't have sponsor or sponsor doesn't have enough money, you get yourself to the tournament. If neither you or the sponsor can get you to the tournament, then you aren't going.
I don't mind not having Koreans at all. If I need to see Koreans, I'll watch GSL. I'll watch MLG. I'll watch IEM. I'll watch Day9 Dailys where Koreans are involved. I understand you have to play with the best to become the best, but every single tournament requiring Koreans, and not watcing if they aren't present, is silly. I love watching the best foreigners too.
Posting news on TL is amateurish? If I want something known to the SC2 community, I'm posting it on TL. I would say requesting to be pampered is pretentious of the Koreans. It may be how things are done in Korea, but this is NASL. It's held in North America, and as I already mentioned, the way we do it here is you get yourself to the tournament.
For Deposits, That's a tough call. I can understand not liking them, but I also understand the need for them. If the concern is time wasted due to a no-show, how about eliminating the Deposit, and having a 10 minute time frame. You have to show up within 10 minutes of your scheduled match. If you don't, you are DQd. This combined with NASL's openness to rescheduling when necessary should allow for no missed matches.
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On August 18 2011 01:35 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 01:31 Dub_doubt wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for the Koreans with their greed and pettiness. I have lost a lot of respect for the Americans with their lack of respect for the Koreans. See what I did there? Making generalizations is a very dangerous game. People die everyday because of generalizations.
lol wut
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The SC2 scene, especially the korean one seems really immature. No wonder their teams dont get sponsors...
At least thats the impression i get.
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Of course what Mr. Choi can't address is the issue of signing contracts and then withdrawing. So what he has to say in this interview is basically irrelevant to the dispute between Xeris and the participating Korean teams. Ostensibly, the dispute concerns only the money issue and the late withdrawal issue. Sure, Mr. Choi brings up other points about the NASL the Koreans didn't like, but if it's true that their only reason for withdrawing is the money issue, Mr. Choi's points are for another time and place. As someone not involved in the actual dispute, he really shouldn't even be talking to the media about it, as his word might get confused with the participating teams' word.
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The Koreans feel entitled is what I'm getting from this. MLG doesn't pay for you to come neither does IEM or even GSL why should the NASL? If you can't play by the tournament rules then to bad stay in Korea
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Maybe they can have a 2 replay rule. Instead of walkovers, allow them to rescedule an untelevised replay somewhere later with like a 48 hour notice. I mean walkovers just ruin the format for me.
Also, maybe have scale down production abit. instead of a real studio, they could just do it in a nice basement with 1080p webcams and snowball mics for the regular season.
The shuttle bus thing, get that chaperone to babysit and get players on time
I
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Bottom line: Contracts signed, they didn't honor them. If there was an issue about it then don't sign the contracts everything else means nothing and no Korean team that signed contracts deserves an apology. A gun was not pointed to their head for them to sign a contract and the chose to do so.
The travel stipends were more then enough to cover on top of a very good chance to make a ton of money. Sure there is risk, it's sort of the nature with sports in general not everything is a for sure payout.
Instead they signed the contracts and then tried to play hardball, shows a deep lack of respect.
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Considering that NASL doesn't even know who the Koreans managers are, and hasn't had direct contact with them, I am skeptical about their "contracts signed" claim.
They don't even know who they're dealing with, and now they're playing the "we were ignorant" card.
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From a Financial Standpoint, I wonder about the costs and ability of the NASL to accommodate these demands and provide these conveniences while maintaining a modest prize pool.
I think Korea just doesn't understand that E-Sports or more specifically, SC2, isn't as popular here as it is in Korea. If they were looking at the long term, they would realize that their participation in tournaments in America is helping expand the interest in E-sports, which in the end benefits them as the best group out there.
Help us out here, make it popular here, you're really just helping yourselves in the end. Provide cost effective suggestions/solutions. We want the Koreans involved, really, we do.
I do agree though that alot of the NASL finals was very amateur compared to the GSL. Some Suggestions:
- Replaying the whole season to recap their matchups felt like filler, and was cool for the first matchup of how they made it to the playoffs, but hurt after repeating the same information every single time.
- Saying the names of the combatants every single match to ask for cheers felt forced maybe just the first matchup?
- Expand more on the player's styles and common strategies and the deep history of them vs. other competitors. Explain the mentor teacher relationship, or this person is his idol, or some of the competitive hate between them. Generate drama.
- Expand on the players themselves to create a connection between them and the audience, show where and how they live, their extensive training and skill with the game, their likes/dislikes, other hobbies or quirky talents. The average person knows very little to differentiate them. Why should I cheer for boxer or mvp or sen etc. when I dont know them aside of they play Zerg/Terran/Protoss?
- Brainstorm ways to get girls interested. There were like 5 in the crowd total and they all look like they were dragged there. Blizzcon has thousands who like to dress up and get attention. More girls also = more guys, cause sex sells.
- Explain the Korean/Asian starcraft style vs. the Americans / Europeans, offer opinions on why they are so superior.
- Make the semis and finals best of seven sooner to fill more time.
- Do more than just 1v1s. Throw in a few fun matches; a FFA or an air only battle or a clan battle or some of the custom maps like pros at tower defense/micro tournament/etc. something inbetween the real matches. There shouldn't be as much downtime.
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heard they were cancelling some popular soap operas so that they could run e-drama instead....
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the koreans should understand that the big sponsormoney are outside of korea, so its in their own interest to get alot of foreign fans and make a name for themselves outside of korea. just look at players like white-ra, barely being able to speak english but becoming extremely popular and getting huge sponsor deals
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It's a real shame that Koreans don't understand the kind of negative PR this is going to generate.
American Starcraft fans at these events have been nothing short of absolutely excellent, especially when it comes to cheering on Koreans at these events. As far as I understand, the Koreans either paid very little or nothing to attend NASL (at least when the prize payouts were also considered), the audience was great, etc.
Then when you turn around and say "no thanks" to the same crowd that supported you so well, even though you've never even played here, it's going to make those same fans be like "wait, this is what we were cheering for?"
It kinda seems like the classic instance of once you give a little, the person receiving all of a sudden wants more and more, beyond the point of reason, just to see how much they can get. It might be normal in Korea to do this cutthroat style of business, but come on, this was a very laid back league with a tremendous prize pool and tremendous fan support. You really think turning your back on it is going to help, over travel stipends or something ridiculous that these teams can easily afford a thousand times over? Come on now.
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KOrean team's are starting to create a bad image with all these special treatment nonsence. Korean players are treated very well compared to all other players, and yet they feel is their right to demand travel expenses, transportation and so much more. Foreigner tournaments shouldn't be spending more money with the koreans than with everyone else. Once our scene grows enough, they will wnat to participate, with or without expenses covered.
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I think it sounds like the Koreans have very legitimate complaints. Obviously you can argue the Koreans should put up with the problems because of the chance at winning money and getting more sponsors, but at the same time NASL is nothing without the Koreans. It doesn't even have any of the top Europeans in it. Let's face it, it needs the Koreans in order to be a legitimate league.
It should not have been that hard to make sure the Koreans were provided for at the championship. NASL says they need the deposit because of potential penalties (at least I think that's their reason), but in the first season all the Koreans showed they were willing to commit to being there on time. Removing the deposit seems reasonable to me.
With the Koreans gone, only 3/8 of last season's top 8 are returning, with the highest placed person being Sen at 4th place. The NASL already had many boring/pointless matches with the random crappy people that were added to make it 50 people without losing the Koreans. Now pretty much everyone match is going to be pointless.
With all the other tournaments out there, NASL needs the Koreans more than the Koreans need the NASL. It was stupid not to treat them better.
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Asking for an apology after signing a contract, eliminating tons of foreigners in the qualifiers then fleeing the scene when NASL doesn't agree to pay "100% of travel and accomodations" which in legal speak means whatever amount of money they please.
Yeah...classy.
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On August 18 2011 03:41 Auross wrote:
KOrean team's are starting to create a bad image with all these special treatment nonsence. Korean players are treated very well compared to all other players, and yet they feel is their right to demand travel expenses, transportation and so much more. Foreigner tournaments shouldn't be spending more money with the koreans than with everyone else. Once our scene grows enough, they will wnat to participate, with or without expenses covered.
This. Korean teams don't seem to understand how esport is working outside of their country. Since esport exist, i don't think i ever saw so many demands needed to be fulfilled to just participate in a tournament. I mean, how many NA or EU team asked to be pick up from the airport when they go to a tournament and even ask the host to pay for their travel expenses? From what i know, it never happen because its the duty of the teams/sponsors to be organized/willing to pay and not just hope that their host will take care of everything for them. Instead of hoping for the best, they should just ask help or advice from the host on everything they have a problem with.
I agree with the poor operation of the NASL but i mean what the koreans were expected?? Not sure, but i think they (NASL production crew) never had any background in making such a huge event so its totally normal that this event was more "amateurish" than the events like IEM or MLG who has been there a long time. IMO, koreans should have known this and take it into account before accepting to participate. I don't think NASL is trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the korean teams. They only didn't like them to withdraw from NASL right before the start of season 2 and asked to fulfilled so many demands when korean teams knew that those demands were not part of the contract for season 1.
Its not our problems if korean teams have low level sponsorship that aren't even able to help teams pay their travel expenses, deposit cost, hotel and such. In NA and EU this is how thing work in esport and i don't want events to start paying for all those crap for korean just because their are the top of the top for sc2. They should wake up and get a clue on how esport is handle outside of their country.
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On August 18 2011 01:35 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 01:31 Dub_doubt wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for the Koreans with their greed and pettiness. I have lost a lot of respect for the Americans with their lack of respect for the Koreans. See what I did there? Making generalizations is a very dangerous game. People die everyday because of generalizations.
My mind was spinning trying to understand some thread of legit logic in your post. Then I read you ID and it all made sense. See what I did there?
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On August 18 2011 03:52 wolverinehokie wrote:
I think it sounds like the Koreans have very legitimate complaints. Obviously you can argue the Koreans should put up with the problems because of the chance at winning money and getting more sponsors, but at the same time NASL is nothing without the Koreans. It doesn't even have any of the top Europeans in it. Let's face it, it needs the Koreans in order to be a legitimate league.
It should not have been that hard to make sure the Koreans were provided for at the championship. NASL says they need the deposit because of potential penalties (at least I think that's their reason), but in the first season all the Koreans showed they were willing to commit to being there on time. Removing the deposit seems reasonable to me.
With the Koreans gone, only 3/8 of last season's top 8 are returning, with the highest placed person being Sen at 4th place. The NASL already had many boring/pointless matches with the random crappy people that were added to make it 50 people without losing the Koreans. Now pretty much everyone match is going to be pointless.
With all the other tournaments out there, NASL needs the Koreans more than the Koreans need the NASL. It was stupid not to treat them better.
Actually, I don't think it'll harm NASL that much. I'd guess that most viewers of NASL are casual viewers at best anyways and will tune in just because it's on at a reasonable hour during the day.
Oh well. Puma's probably very happy about these developments. Kid's gonna make major money with all his competitors gone. He only has to contend with Sen and Rain, basically, unless I'm forgetting someone else.
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Doesn't GOM provide housing and practice environments for foreign players? Is renting a shuttle and renting a hotel room for few days really that costly? Especially considering what Korean players bring to the table? They're not exactly asking for presidential suits and caviar baths....
Remember, SC2 teams in Korea have weak financial support. The game just isn't popular enough yet. Korean teams are investing a lot of resource to compete in foreign leagues.
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On August 18 2011 03:41 Auross wrote:
KOrean team's are starting to create a bad image with all these special treatment nonsence. Korean players are treated very well compared to all other players, and yet they feel is their right to demand travel expenses, transportation and so much more. Foreigner tournaments shouldn't be spending more money with the koreans than with everyone else. Once our scene grows enough, they will wnat to participate, with or without expenses covered.
The Koreans don't seem to have a problem going to MLG or other well run tournaments.
Anyways, I think you're wrong about our scene being able to grow without Koreans. They bring a lot of talent and skill into the tournaments, and thus attracts many more viewers.
A recent poll asking weather or not people will watch NASL with the Koreans gone shows that a vast majority of people will watch less, or none of NASL. I am part of that majority, the level of play is just so much lower with most foreigners. The NASL will just be a gigantic tournament with a lot of low tier pros. The scene (or especially NASL) will not grow without the Koreans, it will likely decline.
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How would you feel if you were participating in a Chinese tournament, and had to figure out your own transportation / lodgings without speaking a word of Mandarin? It's not like the Korean players have great English, or can afford to bring a translator along.
Also, what is this talk about signed contracts for NASL season 2, anyway? Were there even actual contracts, or did they just play in the online qualifiers and suddenly that counts as legally binding contractual agreement?
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On August 18 2011 07:48 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
How would you feel if you were participating in a Chinese tournament, and had to figure out your own transportation / lodgings without speaking a word of Mandarin? It's not like the Korean players have great English, or can afford to bring a translator along.
Also, what is this talk about signed contracts for NASL season 2, anyway? Were there even actual contracts, or did they just play in the online qualifiers and suddenly that counts as legally binding contractual agreement?
They played the qualifiers and then signed contracts for season 2, as in actual paper, legally binding contracts.
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My opinion of the Koreans has certainly gone down. Elitism benefits no one. Even if NASL's actions were amature-ish, they didn't promise anything and then take it back the way the Koreans did.
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Honestly NASL should just scrap the idea of "Travel Expenses" paid to each player and instead provide every player attending the finals lodging of some kind (not necessarily a hotel room, as its probably possibly to rent a large house for that weekend for players to stay in, which would save immensely on costs, and would be similar to the house offered to player in GSL) and to provide them with transport to and from the airport, and between the lodging and the venue. Airfare should be paid entirely by the players/teams attending, just like it is in GSL. That way the players would never have to work out the logistics of where to stay and how to get around.
If you do this, as long as the prize for 16th place is higher than $1500, which may require some prize pool dispersion changes, then the Koreans will have a net gain from attending no matter what.
Also, some of the complaints about the finals taking so long with so few games can also be remedied by making it a double elimination, so that there are much more games to fill the long three day finals. This also makes it so no one feels like their trip was wasted on a single best of 3 (which I still think sucks for people in code A, but this is an improvement you can make over the GSL)
The deposit topic is something that's a bit harder to remedy. I can honestly see both sides of this argument, because while $500 isn't a lot compared to what you could win, it is a lot to front at the start of a tournament like this, especially when that $500 could be refunded as far as two months after the finals ends, which is pretty unreasonable. I suppose the question here is how do you make sure players attend their games without charging a deposit.
An idea could be adding incentives to players to show up on time. Like say $25 or some arbitrary number for players showing up on time. Rather than penalize them for not showing up, reward them for showing up. If they don't show up, then they've sacrificed a potential $250 they would have gotten just for playing through the 10 games. This isn't probably the best solution, because spread out over 50 players, you'd end up paying $12,500 just for them to show up, but if having Koreans in the league gives you an extra 500 subscribers, you'd break even again, and I suspect they would bring more than just 500.
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NASL has no choice in the matter. With the number of tournaments popping up with equal or higher production value it's becoming more and more about which players you have and if there's anything that has been made clear in the past few months (especially after the past two amazing MLGs) it's that if you don't have high level Koreans at your event then you ain't much.
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Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives.
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On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives.
I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard.
Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others".
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On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others".
This is very true. The fact is big events can't be organized if the parties involved can't be relied upon to show up.
Now I agree with some of the Korean Team's requests but backing out of a contract can have them labelled as unreliable. What that leads to is in the future NASL and other foreign tournaments will have to include stiff penalties in the contracts for people who break them. This in turn will piss off the Korean Teams (a lot like a deposit has) and lead to more problems.
The fact is, while some of their requests are perfectly reasonable, the Korean Teams are for the most part showing a lack of maturity and professionalism both in their interactions with each other (recent scandals) and with international partners (NASL, EG for example) and that can only hurt them in the long run.
Quite frankly I'd like to see Gom smack some sense into them because Gom is really the only company with both the ability to keep them in line (the threat of kicking people out of GSL/GSTL is a very strong one) and a large interest in doing so (these scandals reflect poorly on the Korean scene as a whole and Gom happens to be the front line).
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On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives.
This isn't your buddy lending you 5 dollars and saying you can pay it back whenever or running a tab at your local bar. This is big business, with potentially millions of dollars on the line. Contracts are not taken lightly or frivolously by anyone. And I don't know where you got the idea that they don't take stuff like this seriously. Koreans take all this very seriously, otherwise they wouldn't be upset with the original NASL post. Or have introduced Kespa for BW.
And yes it actually affects people besides NASL. 1st and foremost the the fans who already bought a season 2 pass.
Please stop with the whole, 'you disagreed with me so you must be attacking or tearing me down.' Yeah some of the posts have been the typical herp derp bullshit. But the majority of posts I've seen in this thread have raised valid points on both sides of the argument. There's nothing wrong with spirited discussion on something, at least it shows that people actually care.
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On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others".
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result in loss of money if they weren't coming out ahead.
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The requests from the coach don't seem too much to ask for in my opinion. I didn't find any major problems with what NASL posted in the thread here on TL either though, so this appears to be a communication problem or one/both of the sides are being dishonest about what actually happened.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 18 2011 08:43 Cyrak wrote:
NASL has no choice in the matter. With the number of tournaments popping up with equal or higher production value it's becoming more and more about which players you have and if there's anything that has been made clear in the past few months (especially after the past two amazing MLGs) it's that if you don't have high level Koreans at your event then you ain't much.
NASL does have a choice, and people need to stop pretending that they can't enjoy watching games played when koreans aren't involved. Unless you yourself play at the extreme top level, most people can't even really tell the difference that much between absurdly tip top play and just near tip top play. NASL is filled with grandmasters and pro gamers, they aren't bad players, they just aren't the absolute best int he world. Plenty of foreigners can show great games, and I know I enjoy watching many of them.
The Koreans had a shot at what would likely have been a reasonably easy event for them with a massive prize pool and they bailed out, now they'll just have to sit back and watch while someone else collects big.
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On August 18 2011 00:41 Denzil wrote:
It's pretty ridiculous from the Korean's side imo. Incontrol summed it up perfectly on SOTG when in brood war in america or whatever you went to tournaments for the chance to cover the costs of traveling.
Also how when they all go to MLG it's out of their own pocket. Koreans need to accept that but they won't.
I feel this is slightly different situation. Players who goes to MLG still has a whole tournament to play, while these NASL players already played absolute majority of their games and were invited to the final. Being the latter you'd feel more like a guest, while first is just simply given a chance. Bailing out at this point is more damaging than simply not enter the tournament, and it's discouraging to know that after you've done so much there is still a chance to lose money by going to the final.
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Some people seem to feel that providing free travel, food and accommodation is worth the expense.
While I do agree the Korea players have a certain amount of cache and "celebrity status," you must surely agree that NASL has a right to limit their expenses, and protect their investment.
For instance, how could they possibly cover the cost of travel if ALL the finalists were Korea or European? What if someone from Siberia qualified? Etc.
The best solution for the NASL to deliver Korean players is do what MLG does -- Invite a limited amount of Koreans. That way they can cherry-pick whoever they want and give the Korean-loving masses what they want.
It totally changes the nature and the spirit of the tournament, and I don't necessarily want to see that happen. But it seems like that's the kind of tournament all the NASL-haters and Korean teams want -- a star-system where celebrity players get free rides.
It's a shame that there will be many Korean players that will be denied to opportunity to make a name for themselves in a lucrative foreign market. No one knew who the hell Puma was until his NASL win. It's very short-sighted.
I'm willing to bet a lot of Koreans -- some who have backed out -- will see the potential for 'easy money' and attempt to qualify through the Open tournament for the last spot of the final 16. It will be very interesting to see how NASL handles that situation.
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If the Koreans keep going with this "you need us" attitude, they're going to to be stuck in Korea where most of the good players are and no money is. Starcraft isn't all about Korea anymore and it's time they learned this. They can't expect special treatment anymore. I don't even watch GSL/GSTL unless foreigners or Slayers are playing.
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On August 18 2011 09:59 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 08:43 Cyrak wrote:
NASL has no choice in the matter. With the number of tournaments popping up with equal or higher production value it's becoming more and more about which players you have and if there's anything that has been made clear in the past few months (especially after the past two amazing MLGs) it's that if you don't have high level Koreans at your event then you ain't much. NASL does have a choice, and people need to stop pretending that they can't enjoy watching games played when koreans aren't involved. Unless you yourself play at the extreme top level, most people can't even really tell the difference that much between absurdly tip top play and just near tip top play. NASL is filled with grandmasters and pro gamers, they aren't bad players, they just aren't the absolute best int he world. Plenty of foreigners can show great games, and I know I enjoy watching many of them.
People aren't pretending. Once you saw multi-front drops/harass with big battles going on while they still keeping up with macro, a back and forth game. You'd know it's a whole different level than someone does a drop while there is a main battle going on, and the side who got dropped failed to recover and result in a inevitable loss, with no back and forth game.
You do not need to be a top player to appreciate that level of play, it's the casters job to let the average viewers know.
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On August 18 2011 09:50 Grobyc wrote:
The requests from the coach don't seem too much to ask for in my opinion. I didn't find any major problems with what NASL posted in the thread here on TL either though, so this appears to be a communication problem or one/both of the sides are being dishonest about what actually happened.
I think it speaks a lot about the situation that a 3rd party (the MVP coach) is speaking about the NASL instead of the other people coming forward with their own complaints. The actions of the koreans in this case are pretty mind boggling. NASL tried to meet them halfway after trying to find an effective line of communication and when they couldn't, that was that unfortunately.
Nobody knows the financial situation with NASL and it's not really any of our business, but I remember when season 1 was starting their goal was to bring the best and have the most games. It must've felt horrible to have to type a statement saying the korean managers wouldn't accept the generous offer on their complaints. There's no way that they didn't give them the best offer they could.
My personal opinion is it's just a matter of time before our best foreign guys become round of 16 Code S level players.
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On August 18 2011 10:13 Inky87 wrote:
I think it speaks a lot about the situation that a 3rd party (the MVP coach) is speaking about the NASL instead of the other people coming forward with their own complaints. The actions of the koreans in this case are pretty mind boggling. NASL tried to meet them halfway after trying to find an effective line of communication and when they couldn't, that was that unfortunately.
That's is what is shameful. What the hell does MVP have to do with the situation.
The teams that backed out just look bad. They have valid grievances, but they know they don't have a leg to stand on, in terms of how it was handled. That's the only reason I can think of that explains why they haven't responded.
It also just makes SC2Con's denial of involvement all the more laughable. These teams are OBVIOUSLY colluding with each other.
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Wow that article has a big "I am holier that thou" tone to it.
To call another organization amateurish while the professional teams in their group have uncontracted players, coaches that disregard the same avenue of "official channels" and run to the media about players and worst of all breach contracts.... pot.. kettle.. black??
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United States7483 Posts
On August 18 2011 10:12 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 09:59 Whitewing wrote:On August 18 2011 08:43 Cyrak wrote:
NASL has no choice in the matter. With the number of tournaments popping up with equal or higher production value it's becoming more and more about which players you have and if there's anything that has been made clear in the past few months (especially after the past two amazing MLGs) it's that if you don't have high level Koreans at your event then you ain't much. NASL does have a choice, and people need to stop pretending that they can't enjoy watching games played when koreans aren't involved. Unless you yourself play at the extreme top level, most people can't even really tell the difference that much between absurdly tip top play and just near tip top play. NASL is filled with grandmasters and pro gamers, they aren't bad players, they just aren't the absolute best int he world. Plenty of foreigners can show great games, and I know I enjoy watching many of them. People aren't pretending. Once you saw multi-front drops/harass with big battles going on while they still keeping up with macro, a back and forth game. You'd know it's a whole different level than someone does a drop while there is a main battle going on, and the side who got dropped failed to recover and result in a inevitable loss, with no back and forth game. You do not need to be a top player to appreciate that level of play, it's the casters job to let the average viewers know.
The fact that you need a caster to tell you the difference shows that the games can be quite fun to watch. You can have fun watching great players play, it doesn't have to be Nestea vs. MVP/MC every game to be enjoyable. I know my favorite match of SC2 ever that I watched was TLO(R) vs. Liquid`Nazgul(P) during the beta, game 2 on metalopolis, and it was certainly not best player in the world quality play.
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Well shouldn't a contract become void if the Koreans believe that the NASL broke a part of the contract? The contract must've been quite ambiguous.
Many of you say that fans care about the broadcast and it's not the accommodation of the players but if you think about it if the players don't want to play (as in this case) then NASL won't be broadcasting anything good. Basically just second-rate players playing against each other.
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"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This seems fair and all, what I am wondering though is do the Koreans offer these things to the Europeans and Americans when they come over for the GSL? If they do, then asking and expecting this is fair, if they do not extend these courtesies to foreigners, then they should not expect them in return. Also, how do the European tournaments handle these things? If they also extend courtesies such as these, then NASL should try make accommodations.
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On August 18 2011 10:36 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic." This seems fair and all, what I am wondering though is do the Koreans offer these things to the Europeans and Americans when they come over for the GSL? If they do, then asking and expecting this is fair, if they do not extend these courtesies to foreigners, then they should not expect them in return. Also, how do the European tournaments handle these things? If they also extend courtesies such as these, then NASL should try make accommodations.
Previous posts suggested that GSL do offer these if they came through the MLG exchange program. John the translator or Torch will pick you up at the airport. They have free accommodation for all the foreign GSL players, or GSL hopefuls, people who came on their own but provided a free place to stay to had a go at the GSL qualifier.
However only the MLG exchange program individual were provided travel cost. It is fair as MLG does the same when they invite someone, as oppose to people who sign up by themself.
And for the NASL finalist I just felt they more of a guest, and shall be treated as one, after all they weren't there for qualifier but the season finals. However it appears that NASL do know this, there are just some disagreement in the details.
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this drama is starting to ruin comp sc2 for me
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On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others".
Pretty much this.
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On August 18 2011 10:21 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 10:12 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 09:59 Whitewing wrote:On August 18 2011 08:43 Cyrak wrote:
NASL has no choice in the matter. With the number of tournaments popping up with equal or higher production value it's becoming more and more about which players you have and if there's anything that has been made clear in the past few months (especially after the past two amazing MLGs) it's that if you don't have high level Koreans at your event then you ain't much. NASL does have a choice, and people need to stop pretending that they can't enjoy watching games played when koreans aren't involved. Unless you yourself play at the extreme top level, most people can't even really tell the difference that much between absurdly tip top play and just near tip top play. NASL is filled with grandmasters and pro gamers, they aren't bad players, they just aren't the absolute best int he world. Plenty of foreigners can show great games, and I know I enjoy watching many of them. People aren't pretending. Once you saw multi-front drops/harass with big battles going on while they still keeping up with macro, a back and forth game. You'd know it's a whole different level than someone does a drop while there is a main battle going on, and the side who got dropped failed to recover and result in a inevitable loss, with no back and forth game. You do not need to be a top player to appreciate that level of play, it's the casters job to let the average viewers know. The fact that you need a caster to tell you the difference shows that the games can be quite fun to watch. You can have fun watching great players play, it doesn't have to be Nestea vs. MVP/MC every game to be enjoyable. I know my favorite match of SC2 ever that I watched was TLO(R) vs. Liquid`Nazgul(P) during the beta, game 2 on metalopolis, and it was certainly not best player in the world quality play.
The casters have more information than the viewers, since they are the observers. If a viewer does not know that a drop is being made in the main of one player while there is a big battle going on in the middle of the map, it is impossible for the viewer to know the impact if the casters/observers does not react to this. They also can use the statistics available through the observer tools to have a more accurate assessment of the game after a key engagement.
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On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this.
Quoting myself from previous post.
On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 18 2011 10:52 kochujang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 10:21 Whitewing wrote:On August 18 2011 10:12 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 09:59 Whitewing wrote:On August 18 2011 08:43 Cyrak wrote:
NASL has no choice in the matter. With the number of tournaments popping up with equal or higher production value it's becoming more and more about which players you have and if there's anything that has been made clear in the past few months (especially after the past two amazing MLGs) it's that if you don't have high level Koreans at your event then you ain't much. NASL does have a choice, and people need to stop pretending that they can't enjoy watching games played when koreans aren't involved. Unless you yourself play at the extreme top level, most people can't even really tell the difference that much between absurdly tip top play and just near tip top play. NASL is filled with grandmasters and pro gamers, they aren't bad players, they just aren't the absolute best int he world. Plenty of foreigners can show great games, and I know I enjoy watching many of them. People aren't pretending. Once you saw multi-front drops/harass with big battles going on while they still keeping up with macro, a back and forth game. You'd know it's a whole different level than someone does a drop while there is a main battle going on, and the side who got dropped failed to recover and result in a inevitable loss, with no back and forth game. You do not need to be a top player to appreciate that level of play, it's the casters job to let the average viewers know. The fact that you need a caster to tell you the difference shows that the games can be quite fun to watch. You can have fun watching great players play, it doesn't have to be Nestea vs. MVP/MC every game to be enjoyable. I know my favorite match of SC2 ever that I watched was TLO(R) vs. Liquid`Nazgul(P) during the beta, game 2 on metalopolis, and it was certainly not best player in the world quality play. The casters have more information than the viewers, since they are the observers. If a viewer does not know that a drop is being made in the main of one player while there is a big battle going on in the middle of the map, it is impossible for the viewer to know the impact if the casters/observers does not react to this. They also can use the statistics available through the observer tools to have a more accurate assessment of the game after a key engagement.
Correct, the viewer only knows what they see and what the caster tells them.
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On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me.
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On August 18 2011 10:58 BeefyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me.
Obviously there are enough questionable contract out there for it to be heard in news regularly. And the same can be applied here, we just don't have all the details. That is why we shouldn't solely looking at it as whoever broke the contract is the unprofessional one. Because as far as I know, an unreasonable contract can still be broken without consequence.
We need someone more professional to answer this question for us.
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On August 18 2011 11:11 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 10:58 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me. Obviously there are enough questionable contract out there for it to be heard in news regularly. And the same can be applied here, we just don't have all the details. That is why we shouldn't solely looking at it as whoever broke the contract is the unprofessional one. Because as far as I know, an unreasonable contract can still be broken without consequence. We need someone more professional to answer this question for us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability
The law is, of course, different in different countries. But 'unfairness' in the context of unconscienability is not really all 'unfairness' in the common usage of the word, but rather more specific.
Ofc, there's plenty of other possible issues with contracts.
EDIT: Also, to clarify, a bad bargain is fine. A bad bargain is not unconscionable per se.
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On August 18 2011 11:11 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 10:58 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me. Obviously there are enough questionable contract out there for it to be heard in news regularly. And the same can be applied here, we just don't have all the details. That is why we shouldn't solely looking at it as whoever broke the contract is the unprofessional one. Because as far as I know, an unreasonable contract can still be broken without consequence. We need someone more professional to answer this question for us.
The only time I hear about people breaching a contract on the news is when they're talking about the ramifications of breaking it. So there are clearly some differences between US and NZ laws regarding it. But I'm fairly confident about my response. (in regard to US law anyway)
Edit: Don't look too much into the sexual favors thing I was just using that as an example of something absurd. I should have picked another one.
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Can't believe the NASL's so stubborn. IMO they have much more to lose without the Korean players than to gain by saving money on the travel expenses. We'll I guess the NASL will get what they always wanted, a league for North Americans. GLHF with that.
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Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models.
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On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others".
I have to agree with this as well, if the koreans have some grievance with the NASL you get that worked out before you sign the contract, not a week after you sign it right before the season. When you sign a contract you are agreeing to the terms in the contract. Since there is not a governing body for SC2 though i dont think koreans are going to face any repercussions witch they should for throwing the NASL under the bus like this.
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On August 18 2011 12:01 geneman7 wrote:
Can't believe the NASL's so stubborn. IMO they have much more to lose without the Korean players than to gain by saving money on the travel expenses. We'll I guess the NASL will get what they always wanted, a league for North Americans. GLHF with that.
Uh no where did they say that they only wanted it to be a league for North Americans so don't start that b.s. and what do you want the NASL to just give in? The Koreans are not entitled to get everything for free.
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Is it just me or did anyone else burst out laughing at the comment from MVP coach that NASL only focuses on production and the tournament.
Is the NASL good at anything other than alienating the community, both players and fans?
How could an organization turn out so horribly bad? Who are the guys in charge of the org? Two chimps in suits?
Now maybe the Koreans are being greedy, we won't ever know, but god, other tournaments deal with them and noone has had issues like this. Noone has run bawling to TL. I just can't see organizers of Dreamhack, IGN, MLG or even any of the other lesser known tournaments screwing up so badly at every turn and opportunity.
Boxer refusing to participate in Season 2 (and the guy loves his NA fans) was a sure tip-off that the tournament left a bad taste on the players who participated.
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I place the fault of leading the NASL along on the Korean team's shoulders, but at the same time, I think a lot of people on the forums underestimate how poor the average Korean SC2 team has now. Overall, Korea's got the skill, Foreigner's got the money. At least that is how I think Korean's see it anyway.
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On August 18 2011 08:43 Cyrak wrote:
NASL has no choice in the matter. With the number of tournaments popping up with equal or higher production value it's becoming more and more about which players you have and if there's anything that has been made clear in the past few months (especially after the past two amazing MLGs) it's that if you don't have high level Koreans at your event then you ain't much.
Koreans arent the beginning and end of SC 2 anymore. You can have a league with top players and exclude Koreans, elitists may bitch and whine, but good games can happen without them. Shocking I know. All the complaining from the koreans sounds like they're on teams that cannot properly support them. I see many of them leaving for foreign teams sooner or later.
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On August 18 2011 12:20 openbox1 wrote:
Now maybe the Koreans are being greedy, we won't ever know, but god, other tournaments deal with them and noone has had issues like this. Noone has run bawling to TL. I just can't see organizers of Dreamhack, IGN, MLG or even any of the other lesser known tournaments screwing up so badly at every turn and opportunity.
IIRC, MKP, Nada, FruitDealer and few other pulled out of Dreamhack in the last minute also. I dont remember the Dreamhack organizer throwing a hissy fit in TL
edit.
found the TL thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233411
notice the different tone in that one compared to NASL 'announcement'
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On August 18 2011 12:29 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 08:43 Cyrak wrote:
NASL has no choice in the matter. With the number of tournaments popping up with equal or higher production value it's becoming more and more about which players you have and if there's anything that has been made clear in the past few months (especially after the past two amazing MLGs) it's that if you don't have high level Koreans at your event then you ain't much. Koreans arent the beginning and end of SC 2 anymore. You can have a league with top players and exclude Koreans, elitists may bitch and whine, but good games can happen without them. Shocking I know. All the complaining from the koreans sounds like they're on teams that cannot properly support them. I see many of them leaving for foreign teams sooner or later.
Maybe this is why were seeing a decent number of Korean players join foreign teams atm.
E-sports is going global now, they can't just sit around in Korea and hope that the fans come to them.
/2c
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On August 18 2011 11:11 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 10:58 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me. Obviously there are enough questionable contract out there for it to be heard in news regularly. And the same can be applied here, we just don't have all the details. That is why we shouldn't solely looking at it as whoever broke the contract is the unprofessional one. Because as far as I know, an unreasonable contract can still be broken without consequence. We need someone more professional to answer this question for us.
Why do you continue talking after you've already admitted that you know nothing on this subject. The bottom line is they backed out of the contract. Maybe the contract wasn't what they considered legitimate but they signed it. Signing a contract conveys a message of understanding and acceptance. Backing out of a contract that has already been signed conveys and image of a child who agreed with the deal at first but had got cold feet after considering all of the details.
The bottom line is, it was a deal. This culture argument is nonsensical. ALL cultures understand a deal. Instead of only holding the benefits in mind while making a deal, they should try considering the whole picture. Instead, we have a league now in shambles because of immaturity.
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Hm okay so they expect all this but what do they offer foreigners in return when they participate in gsl?
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On August 18 2011 12:46 Frequencyy wrote:
Hm okay so they expect all this but what do they offer foreigners in return when they participate in gsl?
Afaik a ride from the airport and a place to stay. But remember, GSL is 1 month long, GSTL is 3 months long. That's a bit different then a weekend long event.
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On August 17 2011 21:16 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 21:00 TheSubtleArt wrote:On August 17 2011 20:51 enzym wrote:
Wow… what a disgrace. At first I thought these Korean teams felt incredibly entitled an lack professionalism as organizations. Then I remembered KeSPA, the top of professional Korean e-Sports. This looks an awful lot like "what would KeSPA do?".
I went from being somewhat disappointed about seeing less matches on the Korean level of competition to being glad that they felt compelled to pull out of this league. The sense of entitlement they're displaying is insane.
Is this a cultural thing or something, seeing that KeSPA behaves in a much similar manner?
Despite all of its mistakes, and it had a lot of work to do, a lot of room to grow, I can at least understand NASL's reasoning and while they have been wrong in some instances they didn't publicly express blatant disrespect for the people they were dealing with.
The Korean teams on the other hand don't seem to miss a single chance to throw dirt at someone they feel cheated by.
Leave them out of NASL. That kind of attitude isn't needed. Lol, all the new TL members who joined because of Sc2 should stop talking about things they know little about >_<. KeSPA is almost singlehandedly responsible for growing and sustaining ScBW in Korea. Without it, or at least without a governing body similar to it, ScBW wouldn't be where it is now. I might have misunderstood your post, because it doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe you intended to quote someone else? I registered this account when Ret was staying in Korea, before the SC2 Beta hit and according to my memory before there was an SC2 section on TL. It is my second one after I couldn't find the first one anymore. You Joined TL.net Wednesday, 11th of May 2011 I Joined TL.net Wednesday, 20th of January 2010 Even if it were registered at a later date, "because of SC2", it wouldn't say anything about how long I or other people have followed StarCraft or what we have seen of and heard about KeSPA. Whether or not "KeSPA is almost singlehandedly responsible for growing and sustaining ScBW in Korea" is arguable at best (not in this thread though). I vehemently disagree.
Man, I'm just saying some of us have been watching BW for almost a decade. If your first exposure to the Korean Sc2 scene was 2 or 3 years ago or w/e, chances are you probably understand very little about Kespa's importance and you're dabbling with a topic you know little about.
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On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models.
Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment?
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I love how they keep complaining about the security deposit, and how the feel the NASL doesn't trust them. Well you did back out at the last minute didn't you?... This whole thing I feel is just making the Koreans look worse. I truly hope season 2 is the best tournament ever just to prove the Koreans wrong. GL NASL!
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On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment?
Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not.
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On August 18 2011 13:09 BeefyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment? Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not.
- All travel and accomodation expenses for these players will be provided by MLG.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222580
MLG does cover Korean travel expenses. Last MLG only GanZi and Alicia paid for their own tickets because they weren't invited.
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On August 18 2011 12:44 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 11:11 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:58 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me. Obviously there are enough questionable contract out there for it to be heard in news regularly. And the same can be applied here, we just don't have all the details. That is why we shouldn't solely looking at it as whoever broke the contract is the unprofessional one. Because as far as I know, an unreasonable contract can still be broken without consequence. We need someone more professional to answer this question for us. Why do you continue talking after you've already admitted that you know nothing on this subject. The bottom line is they backed out of the contract. Maybe the contract wasn't what they considered legitimate but they signed it. Signing a contract conveys a message of understanding and acceptance. Backing out of a contract that has already been signed conveys and image of a child who agreed with the deal at first but had got cold feet after considering all of the details. The bottom line is, it was a deal. This culture argument is nonsensical. ALL cultures understand a deal. Instead of only holding the benefits in mind while making a deal, they should try considering the whole picture. Instead, we have a league now in shambles because of immaturity.
So I cannot bring my question/prespective out without known the subject? I made it clear that I didn't know so anyone could correct me, I'd rather be wrong publicly and learn the subject instead of having wrong idea for the rest of my life.
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On August 18 2011 13:13 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:09 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment? Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not. - All travel and accomodation expenses for these players will be provided by MLG. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222580MLG does cover Korean travel expenses. Last MLG only GanZi and Alicia paid for their own tickets because they weren't invited.
I didn't say Koreans. I said everyone. And the reason MLG does that for them is because they were invited to compete. The NASL isn't inviting them. To go you have to win, just like everyone else. If they provided that for the Koreans they would have to provide it for everyone.
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Let me get this straight. Poor Koreans are heading to a tournament to compete and put on a show for the fans yet they aren't given basic accommodations? They flew from Korea, a 15 hour flight for God's sake. The least NASL could do is pay for their expenses to get here. So what if they backed out of the contract; if it's a bad contract, then feel free to back off any time.
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On August 18 2011 13:19 BeefyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:13 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 13:09 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment? Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not. - All travel and accomodation expenses for these players will be provided by MLG. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222580MLG does cover Korean travel expenses. Last MLG only GanZi and Alicia paid for their own tickets because they weren't invited. I didn't say Kroeans. I said everyone. And the reason MLG does that for them is because they were invited to compete. The NASL isn't inviting them. To go you have to win, just like everyone else. If they provided that for the Koreans they would have to provide it for everyone.
MLG doesn't really need to pay for everyone because their location isn't out of the way for most of the participants. Didn't NASL select the entire player pool for season 1?
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people need to stop bringing up mlg, they only pay for the 4 they invite, thats it. last i heard, they're were more than 4 koreans at mlg, they got there somehow. Plus mlg has had a few bad tourney's before they ironed out their issues, and they've been doing this for years. Player's still complain about playing schedules and not being able to eat at mlg.
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On August 18 2011 13:29 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:19 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 13:13 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 13:09 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment? Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not. - All travel and accomodation expenses for these players will be provided by MLG. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222580MLG does cover Korean travel expenses. Last MLG only GanZi and Alicia paid for their own tickets because they weren't invited. I didn't say Kroeans. I said everyone. And the reason MLG does that for them is because they were invited to compete. The NASL isn't inviting them. To go you have to win, just like everyone else. If they provided that for the Koreans they would have to provide it for everyone. MLG doesn't really need to pay for everyone because their location isn't out of the way for most of the participants. Didn't NASL select the entire player pool for season 1?
A) Yes it is. Unless you don't consider up to 3000 miles to be out of the way. (and thats just the American participants) B) Yes, they did, but that had nothing to do with who made it to the finals.
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On August 18 2011 13:14 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 12:44 inamorato wrote:On August 18 2011 11:11 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:58 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me. Obviously there are enough questionable contract out there for it to be heard in news regularly. And the same can be applied here, we just don't have all the details. That is why we shouldn't solely looking at it as whoever broke the contract is the unprofessional one. Because as far as I know, an unreasonable contract can still be broken without consequence. We need someone more professional to answer this question for us. Why do you continue talking after you've already admitted that you know nothing on this subject. The bottom line is they backed out of the contract. Maybe the contract wasn't what they considered legitimate but they signed it. Signing a contract conveys a message of understanding and acceptance. Backing out of a contract that has already been signed conveys and image of a child who agreed with the deal at first but had got cold feet after considering all of the details. The bottom line is, it was a deal. This culture argument is nonsensical. ALL cultures understand a deal. Instead of only holding the benefits in mind while making a deal, they should try considering the whole picture. Instead, we have a league now in shambles because of immaturity. So I cannot bring my question/prespective out without known the subject? I made it clear that I didn't know so anyone could correct me, I'd rather be wrong publicly and learn the subject instead of having wrong idea for the rest of my life.
I don't agree with your ideology.
But you're right though, I'm sorry for ostracizing you in the way that I did.
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Someone mentioned Dreamhack and it got me thinking. People who are "disgusted" that Koreans broke their contracts, do you feel the same about non-Koreans in other tournaments as well? Most recent example would be Idra withdrawing from IEM Cologne. He was one of the two people who qualified through American qualifier.
P.S. Just to be clear, I am in no way blaming Idra or IEM for any of it. (Although I am sad that I didn't get to watch MC vs Idra)
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On August 18 2011 13:59 NHY wrote:
Someone mentioned Dreamhack and it got me thinking. People who are "disgusted" that Koreans broke their contracts, do you feel the same about non-Koreans in other tournaments as well? Most recent example would be Idra withdrawing from IEM Cologne. He was one of the two people who qualified through American qualifier.
P.S. Just to be clear, I am in no way blaming Idra or IEM for any of it. (Although I am sad that I didn't get to watch MC vs Idra)
If Idra was under contract to play at IEM, absolutely. I don't think that was the case, but if it were I would be just as upset about it. (And I'm a HUGE EG fan)
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United States7483 Posts
On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment?
Because the NASL can't afford it.
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Why are people making such a big deal about the "contract"? Breaking contracts happens all the time, and its a normal way to do business. Contracts stipulate what happens when you break them, and those are the consequences, but its not uncommon in almost any field where contracts are used.
Stuff like:
Telephone contracts; you can always cancel but you have to pay a fine.
Sports athletes contracts; they can always retire and just quit (as can any employee in any field that has signed a contract), but they will likely forfeit their pay/bonuses.
Business relationships understand that contracts are not something signed in blood, and therefore have stipulated damages, or the court of law to turn to if one party is in non-compliance. This is more common than I think many posters on here realize. The situations of breach-of-contract are also a lot less cut and dry than people are insinuating. Unless you've read the contract, how can you be so sure the Koreans are in breach? Maybe the contract had a stipulation that both parties would negotiate in good faith on the terms still unresolved, and the Korean teams deemed the NASL to not be negotiating in good faith?
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that breaching a contract isn't all that unusual, and doesn't make a person "bad". Its usually just a business decision; breach the contract, pay the penalty, but do it because there are more profitable ventures that can be pursued outside the contract. If the Korean teams found this to be the case, then they aren't being "dishonest" or whatever, they are just acting like a business (this is professional gaming after all).
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On August 18 2011 14:15 Dante_A_ wrote:
Why are people making such a big deal about the "contract"? Breaking contracts happens all the time, and its a normal way to do business. Contracts stipulate what happens when you break them, and those are the consequences, but its not uncommon in almost any field where contracts are used.
Stuff like:
Telephone contracts; you can always cancel but you have to pay a fine.
Sports athletes contracts; they can always retire and just quit (as can any employee in any field that has signed a contract), but they will likely forfeit their pay/bonuses.
Business relationships understand that contracts are not something signed in blood, and therefore have stipulated damages, or the court of law to turn to if one party is in non-compliance. This is more common than I think many posters on here realize. The situations of breach-of-contract are also a lot less cut and dry than people are insinuating. Unless you've read the contract, how can you be so sure the Koreans are in breach? Maybe the contract had a stipulation that both parties would negotiate in good faith on the terms still unresolved, and the Korean teams deemed the NASL to not be negotiating in good faith?
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that breaching a contract isn't all that unusual, and doesn't make a person "bad". Its usually just a business decision; breach the contract, pay the penalty, but do it because there are more profitable ventures that can be pursued outside the contract. If the Korean teams found this to be the case, then they aren't being "dishonest" or whatever, they are just acting like a business (this is professional gaming after all).
I don't think anyone is saying the Koreans are "bad" or "dishonest". And if they are I don't agree with them. But, making a commitment and not following through puts the other party in a difficult situation and shows you can't be relied upon. Witch is bad business.
And to the bolded part, we know they were supposed to play as part of the contract. They aren't.
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On August 18 2011 14:24 BeefyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 14:15 Dante_A_ wrote:
Why are people making such a big deal about the "contract"? Breaking contracts happens all the time, and its a normal way to do business. Contracts stipulate what happens when you break them, and those are the consequences, but its not uncommon in almost any field where contracts are used.
Stuff like:
Telephone contracts; you can always cancel but you have to pay a fine.
Sports athletes contracts; they can always retire and just quit (as can any employee in any field that has signed a contract), but they will likely forfeit their pay/bonuses.
Business relationships understand that contracts are not something signed in blood, and therefore have stipulated damages, or the court of law to turn to if one party is in non-compliance. This is more common than I think many posters on here realize. The situations of breach-of-contract are also a lot less cut and dry than people are insinuating. Unless you've read the contract, how can you be so sure the Koreans are in breach? Maybe the contract had a stipulation that both parties would negotiate in good faith on the terms still unresolved, and the Korean teams deemed the NASL to not be negotiating in good faith?
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that breaching a contract isn't all that unusual, and doesn't make a person "bad". Its usually just a business decision; breach the contract, pay the penalty, but do it because there are more profitable ventures that can be pursued outside the contract. If the Korean teams found this to be the case, then they aren't being "dishonest" or whatever, they are just acting like a business (this is professional gaming after all).
I don't think anyone is saying the Koreans are "bad" or "dishonest". And if they are I don't agree with them. But, making a commitment and not following through puts the other party in a difficult situation and shows you can't be relied upon. Witch is bad business. And to the bolded part, we know they were supposed to play as part of the contract. They aren't.
But you don't know whether there are stipulations that NASL has failed on as well. If NASL failed on their end on anything, the Korean's pulling out may actually be fine with the contract. My point was, that unless you've read an entire contract, you can't say one side is in breach and at fault. Pulling out of a contract if the other party is in breach is fine; i.e. if NASL was late paying back the S1 security deposits (again, just an example, not actually what is known to have happened).
I agree that it makes any future contracts the Korean teams sign completely suspect. But that should just mean that the contracts have significant stipulations governing what happens when one side is in breach. Penalties should be written into the contract.
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im sorry but 2 things need to be said.. first off if you are inviting Korean players to play in your tournament you should have the respect and honor to accommodate them however is necessary. This includes picking up from an airport its just common courtesy.. .
Secondly but IMO MOST important.. This is suppose to be the NA SL.. North American!
If i wanted to see all Koreans play each other I would fly to GSL or watch MLG when it's on...
There's no shame in having a league that only N/A players can compete in. The GSL barred foreigners for the longest time you had to live in Korea to compete.
There are plenty of top level players in North America and it would be a good way for some of the lesser known competitors to get their foot in the door and make a name for themselves.
With that being said the NASL was a little shaky production wise, but did have outstanding games in the finals.
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I don't know why everyone is arguing so much. It seems pretty clear to me. The Koreans were disappointed with the way the NASL Season 2 tournament was ran and didn't like what was offered to them in the next tournament so decided not to come. In their eyes it's just not worth it.
On the other side of the coin, they cancelled last minute, after the qualifiers, which caused problems for NASL not to mention probably being a violation of contract.
NASL tried to meet the Korean's demands while keeping within their budget but couldn't change the Korean's minds because Koreans are proud people and used to much better organization in their own tournaments. Also, I don't think their demands were too lavish as some of you are saying considering they do have top tier players (and they are well aware of it) and if NASL can't make it worth it for them (which isn't only a money issue but largely an issue related to organization and etiquette as I see it) they just won't come. NASL obviously wants them to come because they would increase the audience size.
Of course, you can't really blame NASL because it is a new tournament/organization and seems to have done their best trying to accommodate the Koreans but at the same time you can't really blame the Koreans because they were genuinely displeased with their previous experience and didn't want to return given the circumstances.
I think both sides could have done things better.
Personally, I would like to see the Koreans compete in NASL because I believe they have some of the most solid and consistant SC2 players in the world (although I did get tired of so much TvT in the finals of the last NASL, and only the koreans seem to be able to make so many tournaments end in TvT) but if they don't want to and NASL can't persuade them to without compromising their values and/or budget, then the Koreans won't compete. It's as simple as that.
Either way, I'll still be watching NASL. Seriously, how many people only were going to watch NASL if the Koreans were going to roflstomp their way through it? Without Koreans it's not entertaining? (But don't confuse my words, I love watching Korean's play, I watch GSL matches quite frequently)
One last thing, for all of you people dramatizing and arguing all the details, it doesn't really help anything. Just my 2 cents.
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On August 18 2011 14:39 Dante_A_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 14:24 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 14:15 Dante_A_ wrote:
Why are people making such a big deal about the "contract"? Breaking contracts happens all the time, and its a normal way to do business. Contracts stipulate what happens when you break them, and those are the consequences, but its not uncommon in almost any field where contracts are used.
Stuff like:
Telephone contracts; you can always cancel but you have to pay a fine.
Sports athletes contracts; they can always retire and just quit (as can any employee in any field that has signed a contract), but they will likely forfeit their pay/bonuses.
Business relationships understand that contracts are not something signed in blood, and therefore have stipulated damages, or the court of law to turn to if one party is in non-compliance. This is more common than I think many posters on here realize. The situations of breach-of-contract are also a lot less cut and dry than people are insinuating. Unless you've read the contract, how can you be so sure the Koreans are in breach? Maybe the contract had a stipulation that both parties would negotiate in good faith on the terms still unresolved, and the Korean teams deemed the NASL to not be negotiating in good faith?
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that breaching a contract isn't all that unusual, and doesn't make a person "bad". Its usually just a business decision; breach the contract, pay the penalty, but do it because there are more profitable ventures that can be pursued outside the contract. If the Korean teams found this to be the case, then they aren't being "dishonest" or whatever, they are just acting like a business (this is professional gaming after all).
I don't think anyone is saying the Koreans are "bad" or "dishonest". And if they are I don't agree with them. But, making a commitment and not following through puts the other party in a difficult situation and shows you can't be relied upon. Witch is bad business. And to the bolded part, we know they were supposed to play as part of the contract. They aren't. But you don't know whether there are stipulations that NASL has failed on as well. If NASL failed on their end on anything, the Korean's pulling out may actually be fine with the contract. My point was, that unless you've read an entire contract, you can't say one side is in breach and at fault. Pulling out of a contract if the other party is in breach is fine; i.e. if NASL was late paying back the S1 security deposits (again, just an example, not actually what is known to have happened). I agree that it makes any future contracts the Korean teams sign completely suspect. But that should just mean that the contracts have significant stipulations governing what happens when one side is in breach. Penalties should be written into the contract.
If the NASL was in breach, then your correct and the Koreans pulling out of the contract would be fine. That said, as far as I know the Koreans (i hate being to general all the time but its hard to be more specific in this case) have only said they decided they didn't like the contract anymore. Nobody has said the NASL was in breach.
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Contracts aren't the issue.
Tyler said it best on State of the Game -- waiting until the Nth Hour, conspiring together and basically putting a tournament in an unwinnable situation is a dirty tactic. It's not exactly blackmail, but almost is.
It's a horrible, greedy and dishonorable way to do business; worse than anything NASL or EG has ever done (two organizations that people regularly complain about on this board).
As e-sports in the Western World grows, Korean teams are going to have to revisit how they do business. Not returning calls, negotiating through surrogates, communicating through the press, guilt-tripping players with handshake agreements ... this isn't going to cut it. There's more money and enthusiasm here for SC2, and they need it.
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On August 18 2011 14:50 Defacer wrote:
Contracts aren't the issue.
Tyler said it best on State of the Game -- waiting until the Nth Hour, conspiring together and basically putting a tournament in an unwinnable situation is a dirty tactic. It's not exactly blackmail, but almost is.
It's a horrible, greedy and dishonorable way to do business; worse than anything NASL or EG has ever done (two organizations that people regularly complain about on this board).
As e-sports in the Western World grows, Korean teams are going to have to revisit how they do business. Not returning calls, negotiating through surrogates, communicating through the press, guilt-tripping players with handshake agreements ... this isn't going to cut it. There's more money and enthusiasm here for SC2, and they need it.
To be fair, noon on the east coast is 1am kst, and the fact that both parties speak different languages make it hard to return calls in a timely manner and negotiate directly. But your right, this isn't going to cut it. Something needs to be done on both sides.
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On August 18 2011 13:27 Slayer008 wrote:
Let me get this straight. Poor Koreans are heading to a tournament to compete and put on a show for the fans yet they aren't given basic accommodations? They flew from Korea, a 15 hour flight for God's sake. The least NASL could do is pay for their expenses to get here. So what if they backed out of the contract; if it's a bad contract, then feel free to back off any time.
Aww well the poor eastern european are also doing a 15 hour flight for god´s sake
Also I recommend all people from Africa who wanna participate in NASL also get everything payed maybe even a bonus becuase they more poor then everyone els
Also while we doing all this special treatment I also think players from Denmark should get all expensives payed and huge bonus just for showing up just becuase we so damm cool.
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Koreans have a monopoly on, well, being Korean.
NASL faces stiff competition from other tournaments.
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On August 18 2011 15:08 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:27 Slayer008 wrote:
Let me get this straight. Poor Koreans are heading to a tournament to compete and put on a show for the fans yet they aren't given basic accommodations? They flew from Korea, a 15 hour flight for God's sake. The least NASL could do is pay for their expenses to get here. So what if they backed out of the contract; if it's a bad contract, then feel free to back off any time. Aww well the poor eastern european are also doing a 15 hour flight for god´s sake Also I recommend all people from Africa who wanna participate in NASL also get everything payed maybe even a bonus becuase they more poor then everyone els Also while we doing all this special treatment I also think players from Denmark should get all expensives payed and huge bonus just for showing up just becuase we so damm cool.
Nerdslayer was rather rude, but his overall point is correct. If they paid for everything for the Koreans they would have to pay for everything for everyone. This Isn't BW and the Koreans can't expect special treatment anymore.
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poor koreans.......he makes it sound like no one else is affected by the exact same things. just b/c the koreans are used to playing in a cushy environment with all their heart's desires fulfilled, doesn't mean that NASL has to coddle them.
the koreans made assumptions about accommodations and transportation, and they turned out to be wrong. it's not hard to pick up a phone and arrange a car service to meet you at the airport, or to hop on the interwebs and book a hotel room.
at first i thought both sides had decent concerns, but now i'm just getting tired of the korean whining.
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On August 18 2011 14:50 Defacer wrote:
Contracts aren't the issue.
Tyler said it best on State of the Game -- waiting until the Nth Hour, conspiring together and basically putting a tournament in an unwinnable situation is a dirty tactic. It's not exactly blackmail, but almost is.
It's a horrible, greedy and dishonorable way to do business; worse than anything NASL or EG has ever done (two organizations that people regularly complain about on this board).
As e-sports in the Western World grows, Korean teams are going to have to revisit how they do business. Not returning calls, negotiating through surrogates, communicating through the press, guilt-tripping players with handshake agreements ... this isn't going to cut it. There's more money and enthusiasm here for SC2, and they need it.
You'd be surprised how many people on this thread alone are upset about contracts.
Tyler's comment can't be seen as coming from someone on the inside(unless he is working for NASL part time), just like MVP coach couldn't speak to the same subject--the negotiation between NASL and Korean teams.
I agree that it could be perceived as a blackmail or a threat from NASL's point of view. But such is business. Unless Korean teams wanted to screw NASL from the beginning and didn't negotiate in good faith, I don't think you can accuse them as dishonorable. And collective bargaining certainly isn't dishonorable or illegal.
On a side note, maybe we shouldn't refer to the teams as "Korean" since we have FXO in the mix, which everyone seems to have forgotten. Or may it is close enough that I shouldn't care so much :p
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whoa alot of korean bashing going on bordering on racial generalization. I understand everyone's feelings are hurt and all but as a korean my self, some of you nerds are being drama queens and making shit up in your head.
here is the thing. contract is the main issue here.
everything else.. about supposedly greedy demand and such.. it's perfectly understandable. They are playing on wee hours for 3 month while practicing for the most competitive tournament everyday. Some of these teams are poor unlike major teams around the world. And they do, in most cases, put more hours into practice than others. You don't make decisions for them. They can make decision to participate themselves. if Esports in west is not what's all cracked up to be, they don't have to sacrifice their routine.
if they think participation and prize money aren't worth it, it's their prerogative to pull out of it. It might be wiser to focus on bigger prize and more lucrative tournament. Are the demands really too much? They do participate in MLG which offer alot less prize pool. NASL should think about that. They don't have to but right now, they wouldnt even. This isn't about dick size measurement competition.
contract is a contract. and I have no problem koreans teams should own up to problems but if contract is a contract, why aren't they enforced? is it really a contract? I find everything coming out from Xeris to be fishy to believe. He has been shady and showed hostility towards korean in everything he said from day 1.
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i still dont understand why koreans wont go to nasl sounds pretty dumb imo
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The difference between MLG and NASL is that in NASL the Korean players that get seeded into groups are invites. As invites MLG kind of owes them some treatment like a pick up for example. In NASL all the players had to apply to get in in the first season. The application says you want to be there metaphorically. Then you qualify for season 2. Again you initially applied to be in the league. Does GSL pick up foreign players from the airport? I know in the MLG trade the players are offered accommodations but that's part of the league deal. Did anyone go pick up huk when he moved there? I will still watch NASL with or without Korean players. If they don't want to eat up that prize pool I am kind of happier with that because that will allow the best foreign players to get a reward for their work which I feel that they deserve as well.
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Steps to recovery:
1) Replace head management
2) Come up with a new league name
3) Deny having anything to do with the old NASL
NASL was and is a joke that spat in the face of the 500 pound gorilla. Apologies won't save them, and neither will a couple names like Puma or Rain considering people can hardly keep up with the GSL as it is.
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I am actually happy koreans are not taking part of this. If they are such powerhouses and and amazing teams then why can't they support their own players when it comes to anything outside of korea? They can lock themselves in their country and never leave for all i care. This isn't about the koreans anymore. I think its about time the rest of the world takes over ^_^
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On August 18 2011 15:10 applejuice wrote:
Koreans have a monopoly on, well, being Korean.
NASL faces stiff competition from other tournaments.
They have a monopoly on being the best of the best, that is sadly true.
But I hope to see a day where this won't be the case. ^^"
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On August 18 2011 16:58 Blavek wrote:
The difference between MLG and NASL is that in NASL the Korean players that get seeded into groups are invites. As invites MLG kind of owes them some treatment like a pick up for example. In NASL all the players had to apply to get in in the first season. The application says you want to be there metaphorically. Then you qualify for season 2. Again you initially applied to be in the league. Does GSL pick up foreign players from the airport? I know in the MLG trade the players are offered accommodations but that's part of the league deal. Did anyone go pick up huk when he moved there? I will still watch NASL with or without Korean players. If they don't want to eat up that prize pool I am kind of happier with that because that will allow the best foreign players to get a reward for their work which I feel that they deserve as well.
I think you have that backwards. In MLG the invites don't have to play through the qualifier (aka open bracket) and get a spot in the championship bracket (aka "finals"). In the NASL they aren't invites (in the same sense as at MLG) they still have to play through the qualifier to make it to the championship bracket ("finals"). And as such should not expect the same treatment. Although I don't really see a problem with setting up a ride from the airport to their hotel. They would be on the same plane, no?
Edit: I just reread your post and it's just that sentence thats backwards. My apology's.
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When I was doing competitive swimming, our team always arranged its own hotel accommodation and transport when we had meets in other cities. I don't see why the Koreans feel so entitled.
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On August 18 2011 12:26 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I place the fault of leading the NASL along on the Korean team's shoulders, but at the same time, I think a lot of people on the forums underestimate how poor the average Korean SC2 team has now. Overall, Korea's got the skill, Foreigner's got the money. At least that is how I think Korean's see it anyway.
There's no reason why Koreans shouldn't be able to pull the same kind of sponsorship as foreigners, if not more.
The problem is their culture is not suitable for international business, and they are too proud to change.
And such, they will either learn the power of grouping together and enforcing their will on foreign tournaments, or foreign tournaments will band together and deny them.
I think either way, the top players will continue to trickle out into foreign teams. The only teams I can see maintaining a large portion of their players is Startale and OGS, because they seem to have a level of connectedness among teammates, AND they actually get sponsors.
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On August 18 2011 16:24 Plutonik wrote:
i still dont understand why koreans wont go to nasl sounds pretty dumb imo
It is. It's looking at things in short-term rather than long-term.
"Oh hey I can probably afford to send my players there but it's kind of a burden and I've been insulted by small mistakes. I will ask NASL to cover them. Oh they won't? They're willing to offer $2000 instead? Well screw them. "
I can see how small mistakes may have piled up to give the Koreans a bad impression of NASL. HOWEVER, if the Koreans are as broke as they claim to be, then that should not matter in the decision making process to a wise manager.
Since Korea has no sponsors, they should be looking at foreign sponsors. Foreign sponsors = foreign tournaments = NASL. Not to mention the huge prize pool of NASL that Koreans would undoubtedly get at least a large portion of.
Basically, you don't make money by sitting around doing nothing. It's nice to try to make demands and see if someone else can cover your costs, but if they refuse, then you cut your losses (meaning they should have accepted the final offer by NASL).
Those small loses and a small swallow of pride mean great gains in the future. Sadly, this will not happen, and so players will continue to be approached by foreign teams willing to give them salaries, and they will continue to leave.
Basically, the Koreans are shooting themselves in the foot over some very small things.
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On August 18 2011 09:50 Grobyc wrote:
The requests from the coach don't seem too much to ask for in my opinion. I didn't find any major problems with what NASL posted in the thread here on TL either though, so this appears to be a communication problem or one/both of the sides are being dishonest about what actually happened.
The miscommunication problem comes from the Korean side for failing to negotiate properly, if you can honestly consider what they did an attempt at negotiating at all.
It's so insulting to do what they did, and then preach to NASL about profesionalism, and demand an apology from them.
They should likewise be issuing NASL an apology for reaching a decision without involving them, going through middle-men to get the message across, refusing to say who made the decision when NASL asked so that they could directly speak to that person and figure out what the problem is (and then complain about how NASL has problems, when NASL offered an attempt at resolution). sign contracts and then breach them...etc.
This interview/article is nothing but self-serving and a defense to the negative feedback they've rightfully received. They are attempting to point the finger at NASL as the source of the problem.
However, if NASL offered to talk to the people in charge to make amends, and the Koreans refused or pretended they didn't know who those people are, well then you don't quite get to whine about NASLs problem. They offered to resolve them; you didn't take the offer.
People need to be reminded that since the end of season 1, not one of these managers ever came to NASL to express their dissatisfaction. Instead they signed contracts. How is NASL to know there is a problem, until people who told people who told Mr.Chae told NASL?
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I sincerely hope no one who pulled out of the regular season gets to play in the open tournament.
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On August 18 2011 09:43 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. This isn't your buddy lending you 5 dollars and saying you can pay it back whenever or running a tab at your local bar. This is big business, with potentially millions of dollars on the line. Contracts are not taken lightly or frivolously by anyone. And I don't know where you got the idea that they don't take stuff like this seriously. Koreans take all this very seriously, otherwise they wouldn't be upset with the original NASL post. Or have introduced Kespa for BW. And yes it actually affects people besides NASL. 1st and foremost the the fans who already bought a season 2 pass. Please stop with the whole, 'you disagreed with me so you must be attacking or tearing me down.' Yeah some of the posts have been the typical herp derp bullshit. But the majority of posts I've seen in this thread have raised valid points on both sides of the argument. There's nothing wrong with spirited discussion on something, at least it shows that people actually care.
If this is a big business with potentially millions of dollars on the line, NASL should treat it as such. You apparently have no idea of how business works for all your talk of contracts and their importance. Welcome to the real world where money is involved: people break contracts and change their minds, and people get screwed over.
When you are in a competitive, growing field like NASL is, competing with all the other tournaments popping up all the time, you have to make sacrifices. While you can talk on the internet all you want about "oh man they are acting so unprofessional blahblahblah silly koreans", that's nothing but armchair elitism with no bearing on the real world. When two companies are both trying to get a major client, they go out of their way to flatter and suck up to that person. Companies will name buildings after their potential clients in an attempt to flatter them, wait on them hand and foot, wine and dine them.
You can't scream about the growth of esports and NASL being a big business and expect everything to be nice and pretty and professional. The koreans may have acted 'unprofessional' in the eyes of this community by backing out of some contract but NASL is acting 'unbusinesslike' which, for the growth of esports, is worse. A successful business does not post condemnations of former clients who shunned them, and can make some simple concessions to increase the travel stipend to an acceptable level. Koreans are the clients that should be flattered in the business setting. They have every right to make the demands they do and if they back out of a contract, deal with it.
Judging by all the anti-Korean hate on this thread, the people behind NASL obviously don't have a good grasp on how to run a business. Bringing up all this drama and all the "affronted" people in this thread will only sour relations with the Koreans, who are the most important 'clients' in esports. NASL could have just said "we could not come to an agreement with the Koreans so they are no longer participating in this season of the NASL", and potentially have soothed things over behind the scenes, explained their side to the Koreans, parted amicably and the Koreans may have decided to come back for season 3. Or if NASL didn't want them to come back anyway, they could have just left it at that. Instead NASL felt the need to stir up the SC2 community, and alienate the Koreans from dealing with them completely.
On August 18 2011 17:38 CruelGame wrote:
I am actually happy koreans are not taking part of this. If they are such powerhouses and and amazing teams then why can't they support their own players when it comes to anything outside of korea? They can lock themselves in their country and never leave for all i care. This isn't about the koreans anymore. I think its about time the rest of the world takes over ^_^
Lmao wow, how racist can you get?
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On August 19 2011 00:15 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 09:43 Slider954 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. This isn't your buddy lending you 5 dollars and saying you can pay it back whenever or running a tab at your local bar. This is big business, with potentially millions of dollars on the line. Contracts are not taken lightly or frivolously by anyone. And I don't know where you got the idea that they don't take stuff like this seriously. Koreans take all this very seriously, otherwise they wouldn't be upset with the original NASL post. Or have introduced Kespa for BW. And yes it actually affects people besides NASL. 1st and foremost the the fans who already bought a season 2 pass. Please stop with the whole, 'you disagreed with me so you must be attacking or tearing me down.' Yeah some of the posts have been the typical herp derp bullshit. But the majority of posts I've seen in this thread have raised valid points on both sides of the argument. There's nothing wrong with spirited discussion on something, at least it shows that people actually care. If this is a big business with potentially millions of dollars on the line, NASL should treat it as such. You apparently have no idea of how business works for all your talk of contracts and their importance. Welcome to the real world where money is involved: people break contracts and change their minds, and people get screwed over. When you are in a competitive, growing field like NASL is, competing with all the other tournaments popping up all the time, you have to make sacrifices. While you can talk on the internet all you want about "oh man they are acting so unprofessional blahblahblah silly koreans", that's nothing but armchair elitism with no bearing on the real world. When two companies are both trying to get a major client, they go out of their way to flatter and suck up to that person. Companies will name buildings after their potential clients in an attempt to flatter them, wait on them hand and foot, wine and dine them. You can't scream about the growth of esports and NASL being a big business and expect everything to be nice and pretty and professional. The koreans may have acted 'unprofessional' in the eyes of this community by backing out of some contract but NASL is acting 'unbusinesslike' which, for the growth of esports, is worse. A successful business does not post condemnations of former clients who shunned them, and can make some simple concessions to increase the travel stipend to an acceptable level. Koreans are the clients that should be flattered in the business setting. They have every right to make the demands they do and if they back out of a contract, deal with it. Judging by all the anti-Korean hate on this thread, the people behind NASL obviously don't have a good grasp on how to run a business. Bringing up all this drama and all the "affronted" people in this thread will only sour relations with the Koreans, who are the most important 'clients' in esports. NASL could have just said "we could not come to an agreement with the Koreans so they are no longer participating in this season of the NASL", and potentially have soothed things over behind the scenes, explained their side to the Koreans, parted amicably and the Koreans may have decided to come back for season 3. Or if NASL didn't want them to come back anyway, they could have just left it at that. Instead NASL felt the need to stir up the SC2 community, and alienate the Koreans from dealing with them completely. Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 17:38 CruelGame wrote:
I am actually happy koreans are not taking part of this. If they are such powerhouses and and amazing teams then why can't they support their own players when it comes to anything outside of korea? They can lock themselves in their country and never leave for all i care. This isn't about the koreans anymore. I think its about time the rest of the world takes over ^_^ Lmao wow, how racist can you get?
This is exactly the point. Koreans are the client that NASL wants and needs to use them to make money. The Koreans are basically paying their time/gameplay skills for NASL's work (setting up the tournament) which NASL is hoping to translate into dollars. The prize money is a byproduct so no, the Koreans dont owe NASL anything. And if the client wants to pull out and cancel the contract at the last second before work starts then he's gonna be able to do it and NASL needs to suck it up. You cant criticize the client and burn bridges, jus cus u dont have him for this current job doesnt mean u wont need them later, or u might not need OTHER korean/non-korean teams. if u alrdy started work then oh well too bad, losses are a part of doing business, cut ur losses and move on. NASL is retarded for the way they handled things. No matter how bad a client is, u dont publicize it. isnt surprising however ever since Xeris's less than intelligent and extremely close-minded posts about Korea/GSL hurting e-sports and being unfair to foreigners. Try to sound less like a racist plz.
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nasl definitely has horrible business management, no matter what the koreans did.
nasl absolutely needs the koreans, and whining on teamliquid to get sympathy is not going to help them at all. i don't see the koreans coming back for season 3 after all this. nasl won't survive, simple as that. i don't see nasl having a season 3. there are already so many tournaments that are competing, and nasl has shown some amateur stuff.
compare nasl to the new ign tournament, where the prize money is the same, qualifiers from all regions, and then all expenses paid playoffs/finals at the end. not only that, they are well known for their having great production.
sorry, but nasl just can't compete, and burning bridges with the koreans was the stupidest thing they could do. everything about nasl was just amateur. it honestly seemed like it's their first time ever handling a business and it showed.
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im on the koreans side. but i still feel like.. if foreigners can muster up money to send their players to the GSL and have them live over there. why wouldnt some koreans be able to pay to have their players be over in the US for NASL. maybe its the price pool difference i dunno
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Just another example of the non-Korean scene being extremely underdeveloped and amateurish. Some organizing minds could really release the potential of this game upon a wide audience but instead the game's growth will continue to be stunted due to the failures of the non-Korean scene.
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I hate how they always bring up the idea that "traditional values" play a huge role and are complete opposites in respective parts of the world. It's like they're subtley implying that they're "honorable" in business and that all westerners are ruthless assholes out to make a quick buck, when its pretty clear that this isn't true for either side.
That's international business for you though I guess.
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How about you post an excerpt about the problems the koreans had and why they withdrew instead of the last part of the article? I bet a lot of posters in here didn't even read the whole article and just say the koreans look bad based on that very suspiciously lookin excerpt.
I also don't get why people keep comparing this to MLG expenses and Dreamhack expenses. There are significant differences with those tournaments...
- At those Lans you just fly over for one weekend at the chance for a really good prize money at dreamhack or code s and code a spots and the grand finals at MLG
- There is no security deposit which they didn't even get back before the next event started.
- You don't have to play 9 whole weeks at unmanly hours with delays every other game and on bad server conditions just to qualify for the finals. This definitely takes you out of your training routine.
- When you finally get to the NASL finals after 9 weeks you lose one best of 3 and you are out.
The trip was for nothing, the prizemoney is gone because it was used for accomodation and flight and you wasted a whole week on that. This adds up to at least 10 weeks of hassle for basically nothing. That is if you even qualified for the finals.
- The NASL-finals were not run smoothly at all. Huge delays and only one game per player at the first day but the event took like 10 hours overall. 9 hours of waiting is just NOT what a progamer wants to do. Dreamhack and the last MLGs were very well organized compared to that. They have a tight schedule and their system allows for at least one slip-up.
==> I think the conclusion for a lot of Koreans to back out of NASL is pretty reasonable from their point of view.
The one thing that is really a concern is the late withdrawal of most Korean players.
If it is true that they had to sign contracts before the finals of NASL1 took place their argument to back out after they heard about the bad experiences seems reasonable as well but I don't know the exact dates so this might just be an excuse. I guess if they just had withdrawn a little earlier then there wouldn't really be anything substantial to argue about.
In any case, this argument shouldn't have been carried out in public. NASL tried to save face with their statement after the Koreans withdrew and the Koreans did the same after seeing that. I think both sides would have been better off with just announcing the withdrawal itself and a short statement that they didn't agree on budget issues.
This "we tried everything and even offered this and that, the koreans were unreasonable" into "the conditions were so bad and you were unprofessional" discussion just seems very very childish.
I'm still gonna watch the NASL next season and just hope that they have learned from the mistakes and experiences they made last season. It has huge potential and I don't think that koreans withdrawing is such a bad thing for them after all. If the production is great then i have no doubt that im gonna be entertained. The western scene has enough good players to produce exciting games.
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On August 19 2011 01:20 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 00:15 Heavenly wrote:On August 18 2011 09:43 Slider954 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. This isn't your buddy lending you 5 dollars and saying you can pay it back whenever or running a tab at your local bar. This is big business, with potentially millions of dollars on the line. Contracts are not taken lightly or frivolously by anyone. And I don't know where you got the idea that they don't take stuff like this seriously. Koreans take all this very seriously, otherwise they wouldn't be upset with the original NASL post. Or have introduced Kespa for BW. And yes it actually affects people besides NASL. 1st and foremost the the fans who already bought a season 2 pass. Please stop with the whole, 'you disagreed with me so you must be attacking or tearing me down.' Yeah some of the posts have been the typical herp derp bullshit. But the majority of posts I've seen in this thread have raised valid points on both sides of the argument. There's nothing wrong with spirited discussion on something, at least it shows that people actually care. If this is a big business with potentially millions of dollars on the line, NASL should treat it as such. You apparently have no idea of how business works for all your talk of contracts and their importance. Welcome to the real world where money is involved: people break contracts and change their minds, and people get screwed over. When you are in a competitive, growing field like NASL is, competing with all the other tournaments popping up all the time, you have to make sacrifices. While you can talk on the internet all you want about "oh man they are acting so unprofessional blahblahblah silly koreans", that's nothing but armchair elitism with no bearing on the real world. When two companies are both trying to get a major client, they go out of their way to flatter and suck up to that person. Companies will name buildings after their potential clients in an attempt to flatter them, wait on them hand and foot, wine and dine them. You can't scream about the growth of esports and NASL being a big business and expect everything to be nice and pretty and professional. The koreans may have acted 'unprofessional' in the eyes of this community by backing out of some contract but NASL is acting 'unbusinesslike' which, for the growth of esports, is worse. A successful business does not post condemnations of former clients who shunned them, and can make some simple concessions to increase the travel stipend to an acceptable level. Koreans are the clients that should be flattered in the business setting. They have every right to make the demands they do and if they back out of a contract, deal with it. Judging by all the anti-Korean hate on this thread, the people behind NASL obviously don't have a good grasp on how to run a business. Bringing up all this drama and all the "affronted" people in this thread will only sour relations with the Koreans, who are the most important 'clients' in esports. NASL could have just said "we could not come to an agreement with the Koreans so they are no longer participating in this season of the NASL", and potentially have soothed things over behind the scenes, explained their side to the Koreans, parted amicably and the Koreans may have decided to come back for season 3. Or if NASL didn't want them to come back anyway, they could have just left it at that. Instead NASL felt the need to stir up the SC2 community, and alienate the Koreans from dealing with them completely. On August 18 2011 17:38 CruelGame wrote:
I am actually happy koreans are not taking part of this. If they are such powerhouses and and amazing teams then why can't they support their own players when it comes to anything outside of korea? They can lock themselves in their country and never leave for all i care. This isn't about the koreans anymore. I think its about time the rest of the world takes over ^_^ Lmao wow, how racist can you get? This is exactly the point. Koreans are the client that NASL wants and needs to use them to make money. The Koreans are basically paying their time/gameplay skills for NASL's work (setting up the tournament) which NASL is hoping to translate into dollars. The prize money is a byproduct so no, the Koreans dont owe NASL anything. And if the client wants to pull out and cancel the contract at the last second before work starts then he's gonna be able to do it and NASL needs to suck it up. You cant criticize the client and burn bridges, jus cus u dont have him for this current job doesnt mean u wont need them later, or u might not need OTHER korean/non-korean teams. if u alrdy started work then oh well too bad, losses are a part of doing business, cut ur losses and move on. NASL is retarded for the way they handled things. No matter how bad a client is, u dont publicize it. isnt surprising however ever since Xeris's less than intelligent and extremely close-minded posts about Korea/GSL hurting e-sports and being unfair to foreigners. Try to sound less like a racist plz.
Actually, NASL is the client in the scenario. The Korean teams are the potential service providers or "contractors". NASL is paying Korean players, not the other way around.
So your argument is pretty much completely reversed. What the Korean teams did, while probably not illegal, was a collective dick-move.
Imagine you're planning a wedding, and a day before the recpetion the DJ, Florist, Officiant and Photographer all banded together and asked for double the amount they were contracted for. Who's in the wrong there?
Edit: The Client/contractor metaphor in this situation is weak anyways. The NASL isn't a client, they're a tournament organizer. Without a guaranteed reward, the NASL has no leverage, only an incentive (potential prize money) and a security deposit to insure commitment.
The NASL has no legal recourse in this situation, but it doesn't make the Korean teams that backed out at the 11th hour look any better. It just means they're flakes.
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He's totally right. If you don't make the players comfortable and make it easy for them to compete they will just go elsewhere. There are too many options right now in the market for their services. Personally I think the NASL just wanted to have a non-Korean league which I'm fine with. Let's see who the best of the rest really is.
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On August 19 2011 12:26 Dexerion wrote:
He's totally right. If you don't make the players comfortable and make it easy for them to compete they will just go elsewhere. There are too many options right now in the market for their services. Personally I think the NASL just wanted to have a non-Korean league which I'm fine with. Let's see who the best of the rest really is.
I don't think that's completely accurate. NASL was making changes to help out the koreans so they wouldn't have to wake up at 4am. You have a few koreans showing up to the events, but it's still like 6 people at most. Koreans don't have the level of sponsorship to really support all their players... Hell, MC paid money out of his pocket to go to foreign tournaments. It's only really feasible for the very few to go to these offline tournaments. I imagine these teams have the money to support their team house and that's about it.
It's pretty likely foreign teams are going to recruit more and more koreans because the sponsorship isn't there for the support they should be getting to really make this game global.
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Wow, sounds like e-sports growth in Korea has been outdone by their ego growth.
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I do not see how anyone can blame NASL for these conditions, it was pretty clearly stated by incontrol about what some of the things are that they expected, like quadrupling the amount that goes towards the Korean players travel and accommodations.
He clearly stated that I believe they raised it two times as to help with the cost of travel.
He also spoke about the risk/reward factor which for the Koreans being able to come and compete at a event which get's and will continue to get a lot of coverage and they all most certainly have a chance to get top 4 which pays out MORE than enough to cover the cost of travel.
Let's also touch on the fact that some of them think they should be dotted over like children when they come here because they are SC2 "Professionals" it might be mega big in Korea but here in America although we have a healthy number of spectators the difference in culture and in general how wide spread sc2 is no where near the level they can expect in Korea.
I think it is down right shitty that they decided to just sit around and than pull out in the last second and basically leave NASL in such a bad way, I mean fuck it.. whatever... more Americans now have a chance to place high and in turn that helps the scene regardless but to all these people talking about NASL doing this or that.. you just need to get over it.
NASL is not in the wrong here at all, and hopefully at the end of the day some type of agreement can happen so that the Koreans can participate in future events but they need to realize the reality of the situation and recognize they ARE NOT GOING TO GET the same level of treatment that they do in their home country. SC2 simply isn't that big here yet.
I think they are kicking themselves in the nuts here because the American "market" still has huge potential to grow and the movement basically has just started here in the states and will only continue to grow.
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Ill be quite a bit dissapointed if the NASL runs season 2 with no Korean players at all .
(I did purchase season 1 HD as well). Glad I didn't pre order season 2. Lets hope this gets cleaned up.
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On August 20 2011 00:10 PooLarX wrote:
I do not see how anyone can blame NASL for these conditions, it was pretty clearly stated by incontrol about what some of the things are that they expected, like quadrupling the amount that goes towards the Korean players travel and accommodations.
He clearly stated that I believe they raised it two times as to help with the cost of travel.
He also spoke about the risk/reward factor which for the Koreans being able to come and compete at a event which get's and will continue to get a lot of coverage and they all most certainly have a chance to get top 4 which pays out MORE than enough to cover the cost of travel.
Let's also touch on the fact that some of them think they should be dotted over like children when they come here because they are SC2 "Professionals" it might be mega big in Korea but here in America although we have a healthy number of spectators the difference in culture and in general how wide spread sc2 is no where near the level they can expect in Korea.
I think it is down right shitty that they decided to just sit around and than pull out in the last second and basically leave NASL in such a bad way, I mean fuck it.. whatever... more Americans now have a chance to place high and in turn that helps the scene regardless but to all these people talking about NASL doing this or that.. you just need to get over it.
NASL is not in the wrong here at all, and hopefully at the end of the day some type of agreement can happen so that the Koreans can participate in future events but they need to realize the reality of the situation and recognize they ARE NOT GOING TO GET the same level of treatment that they do in their home country. SC2 simply isn't that big here yet.
I think they are kicking themselves in the nuts here because the American "market" still has huge potential to grow and the movement basically has just started here in the states and will only continue to grow.
Coach Choi said the teams signed on for season 2, but after the season 1 finals, the Koreans that came home complained about the conditions and the way NASL was run, etc.. So they pulled out. It sounds like a power play to put NASL in a bad situation, but I can understand they want to pull out after getting new information. We are not too sure what is the truth, but it does seem fishy they all decided to pull out at the same time.
People should also take note that it's not just about the travel accommodations (other tournaments have set the precedent of giving Koreans special treatment unfortunately). They expected to be picked up from the airport... because since they don't speak English they'd have a hard time getting around. Which is true. Plus lots of idle time and in general the whole operation to them felt amateurish. Something many on TL can attest to.
All in all, probably a lot of miscommunication... why is everyone speaking by proxy? Negotiating through Mr Chae. Posting on TL. Going to the media. Do they never talk to each other directly? Do they not have a direct like of communication?
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On August 20 2011 00:10 PooLarX wrote:
I do not see how anyone can blame NASL for these conditions, it was pretty clearly stated by incontrol about what some of the things are that they expected, like quadrupling the amount that goes towards the Korean players travel and accommodations.
He clearly stated that I believe they raised it two times as to help with the cost of travel.
He also spoke about the risk/reward factor which for the Koreans being able to come and compete at a event which get's and will continue to get a lot of coverage and they all most certainly have a chance to get top 4 which pays out MORE than enough to cover the cost of travel.
Let's also touch on the fact that some of them think they should be dotted over like children when they come here because they are SC2 "Professionals" it might be mega big in Korea but here in America although we have a healthy number of spectators the difference in culture and in general how wide spread sc2 is no where near the level they can expect in Korea.
I think it is down right shitty that they decided to just sit around and than pull out in the last second and basically leave NASL in such a bad way, I mean fuck it.. whatever... more Americans now have a chance to place high and in turn that helps the scene regardless but to all these people talking about NASL doing this or that.. you just need to get over it.
NASL is not in the wrong here at all, and hopefully at the end of the day some type of agreement can happen so that the Koreans can participate in future events but they need to realize the reality of the situation and recognize they ARE NOT GOING TO GET the same level of treatment that they do in their home country. SC2 simply isn't that big here yet.
I think they are kicking themselves in the nuts here because the American "market" still has huge potential to grow and the movement basically has just started here in the states and will only continue to grow.
LOL its clearly not about the money if you read between the lines of what the Koreans are saying. To me it seems like a respect issue. Not coming to pick up your guests at the airport is just fuckin rude and considered common courtesy in just about every place in the world... I can definitly see NASL being terrible hosts in other ways that we just dont know about if they cant even handle simple courtesies. Asian culture is built around being polite and respectful and so I can easily see the Koreans feeling so slighted by the way they were treated that they are willing to give up an easy 40k. Lets not forget that the Koreans went out of their way to wake up at 3 am for NASL and wait hours for shit players to show up for matches. I find it so unprofessional that NASL would say all their manpower was focused on production as an excuse for being shitty hosts. We all know how that turned out, lol.
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So much racism towards Koreans in this thread just because they are beating the foreigners in big tournaments shouldn't make people hate them so. If anything, we should learn from their attitude and their commitment towards e-sports instead.
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EPT
