MVP's Coach on NASL Korean exit - Page 9

zeehar

Korea (South)3804 Posts

August 17 2011 05:00 GMT

#161

On August 17 2011 13:59 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:I kinda agree with them though, a lot of the NASL production was a bit shoddy, esp compared to the IGN proleague..

it's not about the production, it's about the entire way the tournament was run by the organisers.

BigFan

TLADT24920 Posts

August 17 2011 05:01 GMT

#162

More potshots at each other. Either way, interesting to see MVP's side of the story

zeehar

Korea (South)3804 Posts

August 17 2011 05:02 GMT

#163

On August 17 2011 14:00 emythrel wrote:
Well if the koreans get the 5 star treatment, you would have to give everyone else the same treatment. GSL doesn't even pay for flights for people who want to compete unless its via the MLG partnership, and they expect things to be different for them? Bullshit.

What about the Europeans? Could you imagine them making demands like this? No. Its costs just as much to fly from Europe to compete.

...and that is why they're not choosing to compete this time, in the same way you guys justify the lack of foreigners in GSL by saying "there's not enough financial incentive" to invest in it.

grow up.

SourD

United States81 Posts

August 17 2011 05:03 GMT

#164

I do see a problem the way NASL released its information..all this drama could have avoided if they took more of a professional approach to it..instead, blowing it all out there basically throwing a punch at them...what do u think? of course they will do what they can do ruin your reputation as well..just bad business practice...

Primadog

United States4411 Posts

August 17 2011 05:03 GMT

#165

I thought MVP's coach brought up valid points of concern about NASL. He seems like a coach that does care about the health of the industry and the quality of tournaments, international or Korean. Seems like he was the only Korean coach that considered the tournament seriously, and held back his players because of his concerns. His thoughts felt earnest and I hope other coaches will, like coach Choi, will reconsider NASL once and if their concerns are addressed properly in the future.

NHY

1013 Posts

August 17 2011 05:04 GMT

#166

On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.

First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.

Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.

Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.

Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?

--------

I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact.

First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league.

Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles.

Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision?

Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore?

1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works.

2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know.

3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side).

4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him.

It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead.

1) So explain to me how that is breaking/violating their contract.

2) Then you need to read everything NASL says more carefully. They booked them for players not paid for.

3) So NASL was contacted by someone who relayed Korean teams' message.

4) That was about you saying "...There was no point in making this public'..."

1) Are you serious? If you sign a contract saying "I will do ___" and then don't do ____, then you have broken a contract.

2) Proof. That was only claimed by the TIG article was quickly rebuted on almost every point.

3) NASL was contacted by mediators who didn't knwo what was going on and didn't know how to talk to, yes.

However, that's so unprofessional that I can't believe you're not grasping it. Do you know how shitty that kind of negotiation method is? Hint: nobody negotiates through a guy who talks to a guy who talks to a guy who talks to the other side. When you negotiate, two representatives who know what's going on and who have power to make decisions get together and talk.

4) No, I'm saying, their basis of lecturing NASL on what to do doesn't apply when they are doing something worse themselves.

I"m also saying if they truly cared about improving the situation and making good relationships for the future, they would take NASL's invite to speak to them about the problem, and would have talked to them.

1) Again, did the contract say "I will not ask for security deposit back sooner" ?

2) Read NASL's own statement.

3) No, Mr. Chae knows what is going on and who to talk to. The negotiation can be done differently but it is by no means unprofessional. Having someone represent your side is not unprofessional.

4) You would be right if he came to TL or PlayXP and wrote this himself.

They could do that but if I were MVP's coach, I'd wonder if there would be much point when what I wanted were denied by NASL in other occasion.

Azzur

Australia6259 Posts

August 17 2011 05:05 GMT

#167

On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:

Show nested quote +

Choosing not to compete is very different from violating a signed contract.

As I mentioned earlier, the NASL did not do LESS than what was AGREED upon. I do agree that the NASL can do better. The concerns that the koreans voiced out can be used as feedback for the NASL to improve.

In the end, it all boils down to money - if the NASL has gave in to the korean demands (airfare + hotel), they would've come. The whole matter was about the korean teams banding together to use their bargaining power.

whateverpeeps

United States214 Posts

August 17 2011 05:05 GMT

#168

On August 17 2011 14:00 Soohard wrote:
NASL is so much fail, first time i watched the grand finals it was delayed by 2 hours for a simple reason of the projectors. Audio was awful 50 percent of the time I didn't even hear the broadcast. The camera man was extremely shaky like there was an earthquake or he wanted to be the camera man from cloverfield the movie.

My point is NASL needs to be more organized, they treat the fans and koreans like dirt. This is a true fact.

Ugh I hate take these articles and just use it as a complete basis to hate.

First of all, yes the finals were delayed and it was crappy. But that's because, as Russ said, the projector blew out right before the start of the show. I really don't see how they could have expected or foreseen that...technical glitches can and do happen without anyone's mistake.

Shaky camera...I've seen worse.

Audio was crappy, I will give you that.

However, I wouldn't go so far to say they treat fans and Koreans like dirt. In fact, I remember several people saying the live event was one of the best they've attended. I see several happily returning fans and players. And I don't think it's personal or carelessness, I think it's simple mistakes because of their inexperience.

The big problem is that I feel like this hurt the Koreans' pride so they are pretty much unwilling to negotiate, otherwise they would have put more effort into it. But I feel like, if they expressed their perspective directly to NASL, about these little things and what they mean, it's not like NASL would say, "HAHAHA SCREW YOU." I'm sure they'd listen and take it into account.

Problem is, everyone dropped out and nobody who made the decision to drop out talked to NASL about why they're dropping out. That's kind of crappy.

Slider954

United States342 Posts

August 17 2011 05:05 GMT

#169

On August 17 2011 13:52 NHY wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it.

The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when:

1) They signed contracts, then broke them

2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to

3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are

4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms.

5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone.

1) You can't say the 'broke' the contract without know what it is.

2) NASL knew from the beginning who to talk to. You know the person who talked to them.

3) NASL created a thread in TL. He is doing an interview.

4) Again, NASL knows who to talk to, what the problem is.

5) Name them.

1) They signed saying they would be in season 2, and then they weren't. It's pretty straight forward.

2) No they actually didn't, and it honestly doesn't seem like they did, because even the mediators are saying they don't know who made the ultimate decision. Some people are saying SC2Con, some are saying team managers, but the team managers never contacted NASL directly, a claim NASL has stated several times and I haven't seen anybody challenge.

3) NASL created a thread in TL saying that Koreans won't be participating because of failed negotiations and what the negotiations are about. He criticized NASL for going public, while going public himself (TL isn't the only thing considered public).

A wiser move would have been, if you read NASL saying "I am confused, a lot of people are telling me different things, nobody knows who made this decisions and I want to talk to them to see what the problem is)...you would then contact NASL and talk to them.

4) Above

5) That players weren't shuttled to and from the venue, weren't cared for, didn't have their hotels booked. They did. There are even pictures.

1) Not really

2) They really did. Even in their OP, they said they were contacted by Mr. Chae.

3) He isn't saying NASL shouldn't have gone public at all. Also, why would he contact NASL when he has no intention of participating in it in current form.

5) It doesn't say players weren't shuttled, didn't have hotels booked.

"Cared for" is very much subjective so not much point in discussing them, other than it actually says "NASL should take better care of the players."

1) Yes really, you sign a contract, you are giving your word to fulfill the contract. I don't know about you but when I give my word or promise I'm going to do something, I sure as hell I'm gonna do it because I don't want people doubting my word.

2) And again, Mr Chae is just a MEDIATOR, A MIDDLE MAN who was just relaying messages back and forth. To put it crudely, he the equivalent of a cell phone. He was just the instrument the Koreans decided to use to send their communications. And he didn't even know who was making the decisions. If he didn't know, how do you expect NASL to know?

3) If he has no intention of participating in NASL and his team didn't participate in the 1st season, why is he even talking. He even said in the actual interview that he couldn't comment on the contracts being signed for season 2 cause he wasn't privy to that. Well he wasn't privy to anything that happened in season 1 was he?

5) Jesus, what do they want, penthouse suites at the Ritz Carlton and limos taking them everywhere? They are the only ones complaining about this issue is the koreans, if the services provided were good enough for all the other players, it was good enough for them.

Milkis

5003 Posts

August 17 2011 05:07 GMT

#170

bovi

Japan208 Posts

August 17 2011 05:07 GMT

#171

thanks for highlighting this article, will read it now :D

read it. coach choi gave a good interview.

especially liked this.
"[NASL] should first release an apology about what happened," he said, "The Korean Teams feel that NASL is only trying to cover up their mistakes and blame the Korean teams. NASL posted their opinion on Team Liquid and not through official channels, causing not only the five Korean teams in question but also the rest of the Korean teams to feel that they lost their reputation. This is seen as extremely amateurish in Korea."

i find what NASL did similar to FXO complaining about s2con. posting on a forum - which is so childish - instead of going through proper channels. not professional nor mature at all.

whateverpeeps

United States214 Posts

August 17 2011 05:11 GMT

#172

On August 17 2011 14:04 NHY wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 17 2011 13:48 whateverpeeps wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:41 NHY wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:

I'm sorry but arguing with you is pointless. You just repeat the same stuff without understanding simple logic. When you sign a contract with a 60 day deadline, yes, you don't expect to receive it sooner. You are a victim of the same issue as the Koreans...where you don't believe contracts are exact and clearly defined.

I've read NASL's own statements, I've been following this topic thoroughly, have you?

And there is no difference between TL and interview...they are both public. I can Google and read both of them.

Regardless, that's not even my point. My point is if he is truly interested in improving the relationship, he would have taken the very friendly invite to discuss the problems and what needs to be changed.

If someone goes up to you and says, "Hey so I hear you have a problem. Can you tell me what it is so that I can see what I can do?" Is it a normal response to ignore them if you're actually interested in making things better?

Kaneh

Canada737 Posts

August 17 2011 05:12 GMT

#173

what it feels like is that the koreans think NASL was a really amateurish operation, but can't/won't just come out and say it cause that would look really bad.

Like from milkis' comment, what do you say? "Don't drop us off on the wrong end of the airport"? that's embarrassing. "Have more than 1 match an hour"? You want to publish this stuff in an article?

Do people honestly expect the korean teams to sit down and hold NASL's hands? Especially when most every other tourney like MLG has come out much more professionally about it?

slicknav

1409 Posts

August 17 2011 05:12 GMT

#174

correct me if I'm wrong but I believe how business is conducted is very important in Korean culture. For example, a few years ago a Korean bank was supposed to buy Lehman Borthers, but refused not because of price but because how they conducted the negotiations. It's probably not about the shuttle expenses, but how the NASL mistreated the Korean players in their eyes.

NHY

1013 Posts

August 17 2011 05:14 GMT

#175

On August 17 2011 14:05 Slider954 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 17 2011 13:52 NHY wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:40 whateverpeeps wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:31 NHY wrote:

On August 17 2011 13:22 whateverpeeps wrote:

1) Again, you don't know what the contract does and doesn't say.

2) He knows who is making the decision because he is contacted by them to speak in the first place?

3) He is talking as a potential sign up for NASL.

5) Don't make a hyperbole. Are you saying since not everyone is complaining, it isn't legit?

whateverpeeps

United States214 Posts

August 17 2011 05:15 GMT

#176

On August 17 2011 14:12 Kaneh wrote:
what it feels like is that the koreans think NASL was a really amateurish operation, but can't/won't just come out and say it cause that would look really bad.

Like from milkis' comment, what do you say? "Don't drop us off on the wrong end of the airport"? that's embarrassing. "Have more than 1 match an hour"? You want to publish this stuff in an article?

Do people honestly expect the korean teams to sit down and hold NASL's hands? Especially when most every other tourney like MLG has come out much more professionally about it?

No, but I think what IS expected of them is that if they're going to negotiate, then do it properly (aka a REAL representative like a team managers its down with a rep from NASL). They have not done this.

I think that's my biggest issue after breaking the contracts. The way they negotiated was so poor and disorganized and unprofessional that I don't think they have the right to call anyone else disorganized and unprofessional. That's NOT how you negotiate. And I'm sure if they HAD negotiated properly, better outcomes would have resulted for everybody.

L3gendary

Canada1470 Posts

August 17 2011 05:15 GMT

#177

On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.

They simply dont go.

Executor1

1353 Posts

August 17 2011 05:16 GMT

#178

On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T

They werent saying they didnt get picked up, they were saying it cost them 80 dollars. Ive heard this from more than one source. Are you saying its not true?

darkest44

United States1009 Posts

August 17 2011 05:17 GMT

#179

On August 17 2011 14:02 zeehar wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yea and what happens when someone pulls out of a GSL they qualified for at the last moment? They get banned from GSL and shunned by the korean community, ie Rain. But hey the same shouldn't apply to koreans when its a silly foreigner tournament right?

They didnt simply "choose not to compete" before the qualifiers, they did it way after they already qualified and took spots in the brackets from people who would actually have played, thats the problem. Ditching at the last minute screws over NASL royally. Rain slightly screwed up one round of 32 group by giving 2 players a free win, this move screws up the entire NASL.

Kaneh

Canada737 Posts

August 17 2011 05:17 GMT

#180

On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.

They simply dont go.

does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL?

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