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On August 18 2011 14:39 Dante_A_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 14:24 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 14:15 Dante_A_ wrote:
Why are people making such a big deal about the "contract"? Breaking contracts happens all the time, and its a normal way to do business. Contracts stipulate what happens when you break them, and those are the consequences, but its not uncommon in almost any field where contracts are used.
Stuff like:
Telephone contracts; you can always cancel but you have to pay a fine.
Sports athletes contracts; they can always retire and just quit (as can any employee in any field that has signed a contract), but they will likely forfeit their pay/bonuses.
Business relationships understand that contracts are not something signed in blood, and therefore have stipulated damages, or the court of law to turn to if one party is in non-compliance. This is more common than I think many posters on here realize. The situations of breach-of-contract are also a lot less cut and dry than people are insinuating. Unless you've read the contract, how can you be so sure the Koreans are in breach? Maybe the contract had a stipulation that both parties would negotiate in good faith on the terms still unresolved, and the Korean teams deemed the NASL to not be negotiating in good faith?
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that breaching a contract isn't all that unusual, and doesn't make a person "bad". Its usually just a business decision; breach the contract, pay the penalty, but do it because there are more profitable ventures that can be pursued outside the contract. If the Korean teams found this to be the case, then they aren't being "dishonest" or whatever, they are just acting like a business (this is professional gaming after all).
I don't think anyone is saying the Koreans are "bad" or "dishonest". And if they are I don't agree with them. But, making a commitment and not following through puts the other party in a difficult situation and shows you can't be relied upon. Witch is bad business. And to the bolded part, we know they were supposed to play as part of the contract. They aren't. But you don't know whether there are stipulations that NASL has failed on as well. If NASL failed on their end on anything, the Korean's pulling out may actually be fine with the contract. My point was, that unless you've read an entire contract, you can't say one side is in breach and at fault. Pulling out of a contract if the other party is in breach is fine; i.e. if NASL was late paying back the S1 security deposits (again, just an example, not actually what is known to have happened). I agree that it makes any future contracts the Korean teams sign completely suspect. But that should just mean that the contracts have significant stipulations governing what happens when one side is in breach. Penalties should be written into the contract.
If the NASL was in breach, then your correct and the Koreans pulling out of the contract would be fine. That said, as far as I know the Koreans (i hate being to general all the time but its hard to be more specific in this case) have only said they decided they didn't like the contract anymore. Nobody has said the NASL was in breach.
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Contracts aren't the issue.
Tyler said it best on State of the Game -- waiting until the Nth Hour, conspiring together and basically putting a tournament in an unwinnable situation is a dirty tactic. It's not exactly blackmail, but almost is.
It's a horrible, greedy and dishonorable way to do business; worse than anything NASL or EG has ever done (two organizations that people regularly complain about on this board).
As e-sports in the Western World grows, Korean teams are going to have to revisit how they do business. Not returning calls, negotiating through surrogates, communicating through the press, guilt-tripping players with handshake agreements ... this isn't going to cut it. There's more money and enthusiasm here for SC2, and they need it.
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On August 18 2011 14:50 Defacer wrote:
Contracts aren't the issue.
Tyler said it best on State of the Game -- waiting until the Nth Hour, conspiring together and basically putting a tournament in an unwinnable situation is a dirty tactic. It's not exactly blackmail, but almost is.
It's a horrible, greedy and dishonorable way to do business; worse than anything NASL or EG has ever done (two organizations that people regularly complain about on this board).
As e-sports in the Western World grows, Korean teams are going to have to revisit how they do business. Not returning calls, negotiating through surrogates, communicating through the press, guilt-tripping players with handshake agreements ... this isn't going to cut it. There's more money and enthusiasm here for SC2, and they need it.
To be fair, noon on the east coast is 1am kst, and the fact that both parties speak different languages make it hard to return calls in a timely manner and negotiate directly. But your right, this isn't going to cut it. Something needs to be done on both sides.
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On August 18 2011 13:27 Slayer008 wrote:
Let me get this straight. Poor Koreans are heading to a tournament to compete and put on a show for the fans yet they aren't given basic accommodations? They flew from Korea, a 15 hour flight for God's sake. The least NASL could do is pay for their expenses to get here. So what if they backed out of the contract; if it's a bad contract, then feel free to back off any time.
Aww well the poor eastern european are also doing a 15 hour flight for god´s sake
Also I recommend all people from Africa who wanna participate in NASL also get everything payed maybe even a bonus becuase they more poor then everyone els
Also while we doing all this special treatment I also think players from Denmark should get all expensives payed and huge bonus just for showing up just becuase we so damm cool.
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Koreans have a monopoly on, well, being Korean.
NASL faces stiff competition from other tournaments.
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On August 18 2011 15:08 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:27 Slayer008 wrote:
Let me get this straight. Poor Koreans are heading to a tournament to compete and put on a show for the fans yet they aren't given basic accommodations? They flew from Korea, a 15 hour flight for God's sake. The least NASL could do is pay for their expenses to get here. So what if they backed out of the contract; if it's a bad contract, then feel free to back off any time. Aww well the poor eastern european are also doing a 15 hour flight for god´s sake Also I recommend all people from Africa who wanna participate in NASL also get everything payed maybe even a bonus becuase they more poor then everyone els Also while we doing all this special treatment I also think players from Denmark should get all expensives payed and huge bonus just for showing up just becuase we so damm cool.
Nerdslayer was rather rude, but his overall point is correct. If they paid for everything for the Koreans they would have to pay for everything for everyone. This Isn't BW and the Koreans can't expect special treatment anymore.
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poor koreans.......he makes it sound like no one else is affected by the exact same things. just b/c the koreans are used to playing in a cushy environment with all their heart's desires fulfilled, doesn't mean that NASL has to coddle them.
the koreans made assumptions about accommodations and transportation, and they turned out to be wrong. it's not hard to pick up a phone and arrange a car service to meet you at the airport, or to hop on the interwebs and book a hotel room.
at first i thought both sides had decent concerns, but now i'm just getting tired of the korean whining.
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On August 18 2011 14:50 Defacer wrote:
Contracts aren't the issue.
Tyler said it best on State of the Game -- waiting until the Nth Hour, conspiring together and basically putting a tournament in an unwinnable situation is a dirty tactic. It's not exactly blackmail, but almost is.
It's a horrible, greedy and dishonorable way to do business; worse than anything NASL or EG has ever done (two organizations that people regularly complain about on this board).
As e-sports in the Western World grows, Korean teams are going to have to revisit how they do business. Not returning calls, negotiating through surrogates, communicating through the press, guilt-tripping players with handshake agreements ... this isn't going to cut it. There's more money and enthusiasm here for SC2, and they need it.
You'd be surprised how many people on this thread alone are upset about contracts.
Tyler's comment can't be seen as coming from someone on the inside(unless he is working for NASL part time), just like MVP coach couldn't speak to the same subject--the negotiation between NASL and Korean teams.
I agree that it could be perceived as a blackmail or a threat from NASL's point of view. But such is business. Unless Korean teams wanted to screw NASL from the beginning and didn't negotiate in good faith, I don't think you can accuse them as dishonorable. And collective bargaining certainly isn't dishonorable or illegal.
On a side note, maybe we shouldn't refer to the teams as "Korean" since we have FXO in the mix, which everyone seems to have forgotten. Or may it is close enough that I shouldn't care so much :p
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whoa alot of korean bashing going on bordering on racial generalization. I understand everyone's feelings are hurt and all but as a korean my self, some of you nerds are being drama queens and making shit up in your head.
here is the thing. contract is the main issue here.
everything else.. about supposedly greedy demand and such.. it's perfectly understandable. They are playing on wee hours for 3 month while practicing for the most competitive tournament everyday. Some of these teams are poor unlike major teams around the world. And they do, in most cases, put more hours into practice than others. You don't make decisions for them. They can make decision to participate themselves. if Esports in west is not what's all cracked up to be, they don't have to sacrifice their routine.
if they think participation and prize money aren't worth it, it's their prerogative to pull out of it. It might be wiser to focus on bigger prize and more lucrative tournament. Are the demands really too much? They do participate in MLG which offer alot less prize pool. NASL should think about that. They don't have to but right now, they wouldnt even. This isn't about dick size measurement competition.
contract is a contract. and I have no problem koreans teams should own up to problems but if contract is a contract, why aren't they enforced? is it really a contract? I find everything coming out from Xeris to be fishy to believe. He has been shady and showed hostility towards korean in everything he said from day 1.
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i still dont understand why koreans wont go to nasl sounds pretty dumb imo
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The difference between MLG and NASL is that in NASL the Korean players that get seeded into groups are invites. As invites MLG kind of owes them some treatment like a pick up for example. In NASL all the players had to apply to get in in the first season. The application says you want to be there metaphorically. Then you qualify for season 2. Again you initially applied to be in the league. Does GSL pick up foreign players from the airport? I know in the MLG trade the players are offered accommodations but that's part of the league deal. Did anyone go pick up huk when he moved there? I will still watch NASL with or without Korean players. If they don't want to eat up that prize pool I am kind of happier with that because that will allow the best foreign players to get a reward for their work which I feel that they deserve as well.
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Steps to recovery:
1) Replace head management
2) Come up with a new league name
3) Deny having anything to do with the old NASL
NASL was and is a joke that spat in the face of the 500 pound gorilla. Apologies won't save them, and neither will a couple names like Puma or Rain considering people can hardly keep up with the GSL as it is.
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I am actually happy koreans are not taking part of this. If they are such powerhouses and and amazing teams then why can't they support their own players when it comes to anything outside of korea? They can lock themselves in their country and never leave for all i care. This isn't about the koreans anymore. I think its about time the rest of the world takes over ^_^
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On August 18 2011 15:10 applejuice wrote:
Koreans have a monopoly on, well, being Korean.
NASL faces stiff competition from other tournaments.
They have a monopoly on being the best of the best, that is sadly true.
But I hope to see a day where this won't be the case. ^^"
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On August 18 2011 16:58 Blavek wrote:
The difference between MLG and NASL is that in NASL the Korean players that get seeded into groups are invites. As invites MLG kind of owes them some treatment like a pick up for example. In NASL all the players had to apply to get in in the first season. The application says you want to be there metaphorically. Then you qualify for season 2. Again you initially applied to be in the league. Does GSL pick up foreign players from the airport? I know in the MLG trade the players are offered accommodations but that's part of the league deal. Did anyone go pick up huk when he moved there? I will still watch NASL with or without Korean players. If they don't want to eat up that prize pool I am kind of happier with that because that will allow the best foreign players to get a reward for their work which I feel that they deserve as well.
I think you have that backwards. In MLG the invites don't have to play through the qualifier (aka open bracket) and get a spot in the championship bracket (aka "finals"). In the NASL they aren't invites (in the same sense as at MLG) they still have to play through the qualifier to make it to the championship bracket ("finals"). And as such should not expect the same treatment. Although I don't really see a problem with setting up a ride from the airport to their hotel. They would be on the same plane, no?
Edit: I just reread your post and it's just that sentence thats backwards. My apology's.
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When I was doing competitive swimming, our team always arranged its own hotel accommodation and transport when we had meets in other cities. I don't see why the Koreans feel so entitled.
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On August 18 2011 12:26 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I place the fault of leading the NASL along on the Korean team's shoulders, but at the same time, I think a lot of people on the forums underestimate how poor the average Korean SC2 team has now. Overall, Korea's got the skill, Foreigner's got the money. At least that is how I think Korean's see it anyway.
There's no reason why Koreans shouldn't be able to pull the same kind of sponsorship as foreigners, if not more.
The problem is their culture is not suitable for international business, and they are too proud to change.
And such, they will either learn the power of grouping together and enforcing their will on foreign tournaments, or foreign tournaments will band together and deny them.
I think either way, the top players will continue to trickle out into foreign teams. The only teams I can see maintaining a large portion of their players is Startale and OGS, because they seem to have a level of connectedness among teammates, AND they actually get sponsors.
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On August 18 2011 16:24 Plutonik wrote:
i still dont understand why koreans wont go to nasl sounds pretty dumb imo
It is. It's looking at things in short-term rather than long-term.
"Oh hey I can probably afford to send my players there but it's kind of a burden and I've been insulted by small mistakes. I will ask NASL to cover them. Oh they won't? They're willing to offer $2000 instead? Well screw them. "
I can see how small mistakes may have piled up to give the Koreans a bad impression of NASL. HOWEVER, if the Koreans are as broke as they claim to be, then that should not matter in the decision making process to a wise manager.
Since Korea has no sponsors, they should be looking at foreign sponsors. Foreign sponsors = foreign tournaments = NASL. Not to mention the huge prize pool of NASL that Koreans would undoubtedly get at least a large portion of.
Basically, you don't make money by sitting around doing nothing. It's nice to try to make demands and see if someone else can cover your costs, but if they refuse, then you cut your losses (meaning they should have accepted the final offer by NASL).
Those small loses and a small swallow of pride mean great gains in the future. Sadly, this will not happen, and so players will continue to be approached by foreign teams willing to give them salaries, and they will continue to leave.
Basically, the Koreans are shooting themselves in the foot over some very small things.
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On August 18 2011 09:50 Grobyc wrote:
The requests from the coach don't seem too much to ask for in my opinion. I didn't find any major problems with what NASL posted in the thread here on TL either though, so this appears to be a communication problem or one/both of the sides are being dishonest about what actually happened.
The miscommunication problem comes from the Korean side for failing to negotiate properly, if you can honestly consider what they did an attempt at negotiating at all.
It's so insulting to do what they did, and then preach to NASL about profesionalism, and demand an apology from them.
They should likewise be issuing NASL an apology for reaching a decision without involving them, going through middle-men to get the message across, refusing to say who made the decision when NASL asked so that they could directly speak to that person and figure out what the problem is (and then complain about how NASL has problems, when NASL offered an attempt at resolution). sign contracts and then breach them...etc.
This interview/article is nothing but self-serving and a defense to the negative feedback they've rightfully received. They are attempting to point the finger at NASL as the source of the problem.
However, if NASL offered to talk to the people in charge to make amends, and the Koreans refused or pretended they didn't know who those people are, well then you don't quite get to whine about NASLs problem. They offered to resolve them; you didn't take the offer.
People need to be reminded that since the end of season 1, not one of these managers ever came to NASL to express their dissatisfaction. Instead they signed contracts. How is NASL to know there is a problem, until people who told people who told Mr.Chae told NASL?
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I sincerely hope no one who pulled out of the regular season gets to play in the open tournament.
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EPT
