|
On August 17 2011 21:16 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 21:00 TheSubtleArt wrote:On August 17 2011 20:51 enzym wrote:
Wow… what a disgrace. At first I thought these Korean teams felt incredibly entitled an lack professionalism as organizations. Then I remembered KeSPA, the top of professional Korean e-Sports. This looks an awful lot like "what would KeSPA do?".
I went from being somewhat disappointed about seeing less matches on the Korean level of competition to being glad that they felt compelled to pull out of this league. The sense of entitlement they're displaying is insane.
Is this a cultural thing or something, seeing that KeSPA behaves in a much similar manner?
Despite all of its mistakes, and it had a lot of work to do, a lot of room to grow, I can at least understand NASL's reasoning and while they have been wrong in some instances they didn't publicly express blatant disrespect for the people they were dealing with.
The Korean teams on the other hand don't seem to miss a single chance to throw dirt at someone they feel cheated by.
Leave them out of NASL. That kind of attitude isn't needed. Lol, all the new TL members who joined because of Sc2 should stop talking about things they know little about >_<. KeSPA is almost singlehandedly responsible for growing and sustaining ScBW in Korea. Without it, or at least without a governing body similar to it, ScBW wouldn't be where it is now. I might have misunderstood your post, because it doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe you intended to quote someone else? I registered this account when Ret was staying in Korea, before the SC2 Beta hit and according to my memory before there was an SC2 section on TL. It is my second one after I couldn't find the first one anymore. You Joined TL.net Wednesday, 11th of May 2011 I Joined TL.net Wednesday, 20th of January 2010 Even if it were registered at a later date, "because of SC2", it wouldn't say anything about how long I or other people have followed StarCraft or what we have seen of and heard about KeSPA. Whether or not "KeSPA is almost singlehandedly responsible for growing and sustaining ScBW in Korea" is arguable at best (not in this thread though). I vehemently disagree.
Man, I'm just saying some of us have been watching BW for almost a decade. If your first exposure to the Korean Sc2 scene was 2 or 3 years ago or w/e, chances are you probably understand very little about Kespa's importance and you're dabbling with a topic you know little about.
|
On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models.
Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment?
|
I love how they keep complaining about the security deposit, and how the feel the NASL doesn't trust them. Well you did back out at the last minute didn't you?... This whole thing I feel is just making the Koreans look worse. I truly hope season 2 is the best tournament ever just to prove the Koreans wrong. GL NASL!
|
On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment?
Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not.
|
On August 18 2011 13:09 BeefyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment? Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not.
- All travel and accomodation expenses for these players will be provided by MLG.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222580
MLG does cover Korean travel expenses. Last MLG only GanZi and Alicia paid for their own tickets because they weren't invited.
|
On August 18 2011 12:44 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 11:11 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:58 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me. Obviously there are enough questionable contract out there for it to be heard in news regularly. And the same can be applied here, we just don't have all the details. That is why we shouldn't solely looking at it as whoever broke the contract is the unprofessional one. Because as far as I know, an unreasonable contract can still be broken without consequence. We need someone more professional to answer this question for us. Why do you continue talking after you've already admitted that you know nothing on this subject. The bottom line is they backed out of the contract. Maybe the contract wasn't what they considered legitimate but they signed it. Signing a contract conveys a message of understanding and acceptance. Backing out of a contract that has already been signed conveys and image of a child who agreed with the deal at first but had got cold feet after considering all of the details. The bottom line is, it was a deal. This culture argument is nonsensical. ALL cultures understand a deal. Instead of only holding the benefits in mind while making a deal, they should try considering the whole picture. Instead, we have a league now in shambles because of immaturity.
So I cannot bring my question/prespective out without known the subject? I made it clear that I didn't know so anyone could correct me, I'd rather be wrong publicly and learn the subject instead of having wrong idea for the rest of my life.
|
On August 18 2011 13:13 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:09 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment? Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not. - All travel and accomodation expenses for these players will be provided by MLG. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222580MLG does cover Korean travel expenses. Last MLG only GanZi and Alicia paid for their own tickets because they weren't invited.
I didn't say Koreans. I said everyone. And the reason MLG does that for them is because they were invited to compete. The NASL isn't inviting them. To go you have to win, just like everyone else. If they provided that for the Koreans they would have to provide it for everyone.
|
Let me get this straight. Poor Koreans are heading to a tournament to compete and put on a show for the fans yet they aren't given basic accommodations? They flew from Korea, a 15 hour flight for God's sake. The least NASL could do is pay for their expenses to get here. So what if they backed out of the contract; if it's a bad contract, then feel free to back off any time.
|
On August 18 2011 13:19 BeefyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:13 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 13:09 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment? Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not. - All travel and accomodation expenses for these players will be provided by MLG. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222580MLG does cover Korean travel expenses. Last MLG only GanZi and Alicia paid for their own tickets because they weren't invited. I didn't say Kroeans. I said everyone. And the reason MLG does that for them is because they were invited to compete. The NASL isn't inviting them. To go you have to win, just like everyone else. If they provided that for the Koreans they would have to provide it for everyone.
MLG doesn't really need to pay for everyone because their location isn't out of the way for most of the participants. Didn't NASL select the entire player pool for season 1?
|
people need to stop bringing up mlg, they only pay for the 4 they invite, thats it. last i heard, they're were more than 4 koreans at mlg, they got there somehow. Plus mlg has had a few bad tourney's before they ironed out their issues, and they've been doing this for years. Player's still complain about playing schedules and not being able to eat at mlg.
|
On August 18 2011 13:29 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 13:19 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 13:13 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 13:09 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment? Because the GSL is (literally) 10x longer? Does MLG pay for everyone's flight and hotel? I think not. - All travel and accomodation expenses for these players will be provided by MLG. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222580MLG does cover Korean travel expenses. Last MLG only GanZi and Alicia paid for their own tickets because they weren't invited. I didn't say Kroeans. I said everyone. And the reason MLG does that for them is because they were invited to compete. The NASL isn't inviting them. To go you have to win, just like everyone else. If they provided that for the Koreans they would have to provide it for everyone. MLG doesn't really need to pay for everyone because their location isn't out of the way for most of the participants. Didn't NASL select the entire player pool for season 1?
A) Yes it is. Unless you don't consider up to 3000 miles to be out of the way. (and thats just the American participants) B) Yes, they did, but that had nothing to do with who made it to the finals.
|
On August 18 2011 13:14 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 12:44 inamorato wrote:On August 18 2011 11:11 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:58 BeefyKnight wrote:On August 18 2011 10:53 furymonkey wrote:On August 18 2011 10:48 Psychobabas wrote:On August 18 2011 09:12 mav451 wrote:On August 18 2011 08:56 Heavenly wrote:
Lol at everyone complaining at the Korean's demands. Their demands are reasonable and, they are, in fact the rock stars of the Starcraft 2 scene. They are able to ask for these accomodations if they want, they didn't ask for champagne and for the wives/girlfriends of the NASL producers. The money they bring by having more viewers come to the NASL should more than make up for the additional fees they're asking for. It's smart negotiation, deal with it and stop acting like their demands are unreasonable.
As for backing out of signed contracts, since there was apparently no legal repercussions, who cares? Obviously they don't take these sort of things as seriously as other countries. Bashing on them because their culture doesn't emphasize something that yours does is ridiculous. I've read interviews in Korea where they just go "So MC, looks like you're getting pretty fat" and heard stories of Boxer walking around saying people are fat/ugly. Seems like they just do and say what they want to. Does it actually affect anyone here besides NASL if the Koreans choose to back out of the contract and any ethical dilemmas associated with that? People will take any opportunity to judge and tear down others for their actions even when it literally affects nothing in their lives. I don't think you understand the significance of backing out of a contract. A contract is a contract. It has never been a question of culture in that regard. Backing out of a contract is a highly unprofessional and has nothing to do with "tearing down others". Pretty much this. Quoting myself from previous post. On August 18 2011 09:46 furymonkey wrote:
I have no knowledge in this field but perhaps some people do. Even through backing out a contract can result in legal consequence, but isn't it only happened if the contract is deemed fair? I'm sure there are many cases where a party signed a unfair contract (They weren't careful) and later backed out, civil court wouldn't simply judge the case solely on "break of contract".
And in this case the Korean teams simply felt that the contracts were "unfair", as advancing to the season final would result loss more money than people who didn't go to the season finals if they weren't coming out ahead.
By signing the contract to begin with you are saying something to the effect of "I understand everything in this contract and agree with it.". So if you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Because unless it has some clause in it that is absolutely absurd (sexual favors and what not) you WILL be held accountable for breaking said contract. If I'm incorrect about this, please feel free to correct me. Obviously there are enough questionable contract out there for it to be heard in news regularly. And the same can be applied here, we just don't have all the details. That is why we shouldn't solely looking at it as whoever broke the contract is the unprofessional one. Because as far as I know, an unreasonable contract can still be broken without consequence. We need someone more professional to answer this question for us. Why do you continue talking after you've already admitted that you know nothing on this subject. The bottom line is they backed out of the contract. Maybe the contract wasn't what they considered legitimate but they signed it. Signing a contract conveys a message of understanding and acceptance. Backing out of a contract that has already been signed conveys and image of a child who agreed with the deal at first but had got cold feet after considering all of the details. The bottom line is, it was a deal. This culture argument is nonsensical. ALL cultures understand a deal. Instead of only holding the benefits in mind while making a deal, they should try considering the whole picture. Instead, we have a league now in shambles because of immaturity. So I cannot bring my question/prespective out without known the subject? I made it clear that I didn't know so anyone could correct me, I'd rather be wrong publicly and learn the subject instead of having wrong idea for the rest of my life.
I don't agree with your ideology.
But you're right though, I'm sorry for ostracizing you in the way that I did.
|
Someone mentioned Dreamhack and it got me thinking. People who are "disgusted" that Koreans broke their contracts, do you feel the same about non-Koreans in other tournaments as well? Most recent example would be Idra withdrawing from IEM Cologne. He was one of the two people who qualified through American qualifier.
P.S. Just to be clear, I am in no way blaming Idra or IEM for any of it. (Although I am sad that I didn't get to watch MC vs Idra)
|
On August 18 2011 13:59 NHY wrote:
Someone mentioned Dreamhack and it got me thinking. People who are "disgusted" that Koreans broke their contracts, do you feel the same about non-Koreans in other tournaments as well? Most recent example would be Idra withdrawing from IEM Cologne. He was one of the two people who qualified through American qualifier.
P.S. Just to be clear, I am in no way blaming Idra or IEM for any of it. (Although I am sad that I didn't get to watch MC vs Idra)
If Idra was under contract to play at IEM, absolutely. I don't think that was the case, but if it were I would be just as upset about it. (And I'm a HUGE EG fan)
|
United States7483 Posts
On August 18 2011 13:05 lee365 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 12:09 Azaryah wrote:
Korean demands are ridiculous. The players teams are in charge of all the travel and accommodations, not the league. I know Korean teams aren't rolling in money, but they need to start mirroring the foreigner business models. Foreigners who are invited to the GSL have all their travel and accommodations paid by GOM. Why shouldn't Korean players invited to NASL get the same treatment?
Because the NASL can't afford it.
|
Why are people making such a big deal about the "contract"? Breaking contracts happens all the time, and its a normal way to do business. Contracts stipulate what happens when you break them, and those are the consequences, but its not uncommon in almost any field where contracts are used.
Stuff like:
Telephone contracts; you can always cancel but you have to pay a fine.
Sports athletes contracts; they can always retire and just quit (as can any employee in any field that has signed a contract), but they will likely forfeit their pay/bonuses.
Business relationships understand that contracts are not something signed in blood, and therefore have stipulated damages, or the court of law to turn to if one party is in non-compliance. This is more common than I think many posters on here realize. The situations of breach-of-contract are also a lot less cut and dry than people are insinuating. Unless you've read the contract, how can you be so sure the Koreans are in breach? Maybe the contract had a stipulation that both parties would negotiate in good faith on the terms still unresolved, and the Korean teams deemed the NASL to not be negotiating in good faith?
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that breaching a contract isn't all that unusual, and doesn't make a person "bad". Its usually just a business decision; breach the contract, pay the penalty, but do it because there are more profitable ventures that can be pursued outside the contract. If the Korean teams found this to be the case, then they aren't being "dishonest" or whatever, they are just acting like a business (this is professional gaming after all).
|
On August 18 2011 14:15 Dante_A_ wrote:
Why are people making such a big deal about the "contract"? Breaking contracts happens all the time, and its a normal way to do business. Contracts stipulate what happens when you break them, and those are the consequences, but its not uncommon in almost any field where contracts are used.
Stuff like:
Telephone contracts; you can always cancel but you have to pay a fine.
Sports athletes contracts; they can always retire and just quit (as can any employee in any field that has signed a contract), but they will likely forfeit their pay/bonuses.
Business relationships understand that contracts are not something signed in blood, and therefore have stipulated damages, or the court of law to turn to if one party is in non-compliance. This is more common than I think many posters on here realize. The situations of breach-of-contract are also a lot less cut and dry than people are insinuating. Unless you've read the contract, how can you be so sure the Koreans are in breach? Maybe the contract had a stipulation that both parties would negotiate in good faith on the terms still unresolved, and the Korean teams deemed the NASL to not be negotiating in good faith?
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that breaching a contract isn't all that unusual, and doesn't make a person "bad". Its usually just a business decision; breach the contract, pay the penalty, but do it because there are more profitable ventures that can be pursued outside the contract. If the Korean teams found this to be the case, then they aren't being "dishonest" or whatever, they are just acting like a business (this is professional gaming after all).
I don't think anyone is saying the Koreans are "bad" or "dishonest". And if they are I don't agree with them. But, making a commitment and not following through puts the other party in a difficult situation and shows you can't be relied upon. Witch is bad business.
And to the bolded part, we know they were supposed to play as part of the contract. They aren't.
|
On August 18 2011 14:24 BeefyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 14:15 Dante_A_ wrote:
Why are people making such a big deal about the "contract"? Breaking contracts happens all the time, and its a normal way to do business. Contracts stipulate what happens when you break them, and those are the consequences, but its not uncommon in almost any field where contracts are used.
Stuff like:
Telephone contracts; you can always cancel but you have to pay a fine.
Sports athletes contracts; they can always retire and just quit (as can any employee in any field that has signed a contract), but they will likely forfeit their pay/bonuses.
Business relationships understand that contracts are not something signed in blood, and therefore have stipulated damages, or the court of law to turn to if one party is in non-compliance. This is more common than I think many posters on here realize. The situations of breach-of-contract are also a lot less cut and dry than people are insinuating. Unless you've read the contract, how can you be so sure the Koreans are in breach? Maybe the contract had a stipulation that both parties would negotiate in good faith on the terms still unresolved, and the Korean teams deemed the NASL to not be negotiating in good faith?
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that breaching a contract isn't all that unusual, and doesn't make a person "bad". Its usually just a business decision; breach the contract, pay the penalty, but do it because there are more profitable ventures that can be pursued outside the contract. If the Korean teams found this to be the case, then they aren't being "dishonest" or whatever, they are just acting like a business (this is professional gaming after all).
I don't think anyone is saying the Koreans are "bad" or "dishonest". And if they are I don't agree with them. But, making a commitment and not following through puts the other party in a difficult situation and shows you can't be relied upon. Witch is bad business. And to the bolded part, we know they were supposed to play as part of the contract. They aren't.
But you don't know whether there are stipulations that NASL has failed on as well. If NASL failed on their end on anything, the Korean's pulling out may actually be fine with the contract. My point was, that unless you've read an entire contract, you can't say one side is in breach and at fault. Pulling out of a contract if the other party is in breach is fine; i.e. if NASL was late paying back the S1 security deposits (again, just an example, not actually what is known to have happened).
I agree that it makes any future contracts the Korean teams sign completely suspect. But that should just mean that the contracts have significant stipulations governing what happens when one side is in breach. Penalties should be written into the contract.
|
im sorry but 2 things need to be said.. first off if you are inviting Korean players to play in your tournament you should have the respect and honor to accommodate them however is necessary. This includes picking up from an airport its just common courtesy.. .
Secondly but IMO MOST important.. This is suppose to be the NA SL.. North American!
If i wanted to see all Koreans play each other I would fly to GSL or watch MLG when it's on...
There's no shame in having a league that only N/A players can compete in. The GSL barred foreigners for the longest time you had to live in Korea to compete.
There are plenty of top level players in North America and it would be a good way for some of the lesser known competitors to get their foot in the door and make a name for themselves.
With that being said the NASL was a little shaky production wise, but did have outstanding games in the finals.
|
I don't know why everyone is arguing so much. It seems pretty clear to me. The Koreans were disappointed with the way the NASL Season 2 tournament was ran and didn't like what was offered to them in the next tournament so decided not to come. In their eyes it's just not worth it.
On the other side of the coin, they cancelled last minute, after the qualifiers, which caused problems for NASL not to mention probably being a violation of contract.
NASL tried to meet the Korean's demands while keeping within their budget but couldn't change the Korean's minds because Koreans are proud people and used to much better organization in their own tournaments. Also, I don't think their demands were too lavish as some of you are saying considering they do have top tier players (and they are well aware of it) and if NASL can't make it worth it for them (which isn't only a money issue but largely an issue related to organization and etiquette as I see it) they just won't come. NASL obviously wants them to come because they would increase the audience size.
Of course, you can't really blame NASL because it is a new tournament/organization and seems to have done their best trying to accommodate the Koreans but at the same time you can't really blame the Koreans because they were genuinely displeased with their previous experience and didn't want to return given the circumstances.
I think both sides could have done things better.
Personally, I would like to see the Koreans compete in NASL because I believe they have some of the most solid and consistant SC2 players in the world (although I did get tired of so much TvT in the finals of the last NASL, and only the koreans seem to be able to make so many tournaments end in TvT) but if they don't want to and NASL can't persuade them to without compromising their values and/or budget, then the Koreans won't compete. It's as simple as that.
Either way, I'll still be watching NASL. Seriously, how many people only were going to watch NASL if the Koreans were going to roflstomp their way through it? Without Koreans it's not entertaining? (But don't confuse my words, I love watching Korean's play, I watch GSL matches quite frequently)
One last thing, for all of you people dramatizing and arguing all the details, it doesn't really help anything. Just my 2 cents.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
