EPTI am still mystified that Oracle got that speed buff, so silly :p
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 964
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23792 Posts
I am still mystified that Oracle got that speed buff, so silly :p | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
On April 29 2014 00:08 ETisME wrote: i think rather than keep bringing up there is balance issue in a matchup, you guys should see how blizzard patch the right ones. from non stop 24/7 bio mine all maps no mech appearance at all into now bio mine bio mech mech Blizzard knows how to patch things, they have messed up several times earlier but always get it right in some other way. while mines are migrating from TvZ, it is increasing in usage for TvP, a matchup that is still very stale in unit composition. I can see blizzard wanting to find a way to make bio -> bio mech into a more viable transition right now: mines don't benefit at all from mech upgrades but still terran starts to add in hellbats and thors in mid late game for transition which makes for very interesting and more dynamic games right now thors are added because of mutas and also deal better against ultra transition but are only gotten in late mid game and are rough to transition to. I think LotV will introduce one terran unit that benefits from mech upgrades and flow well with bio and zerg might have a stronger anti bio unit (soft-ish counter) that pushes terran to move away from staying pure bio 3/3 only in late game. it's simple to boost win rate in matchups, just nerf and buffs. it's hard to get the right buffs and nerfs with a vision I think that by nerfing the Widow Mine so it only oneshotted Lings at a radius of 1.25 was the right move. Banelings were less affected as they still died in a radius of 1.5 There was simply no reason fro Widow Mines to be that good vs Lings prepatch as Marines + Medivac already counted it + it made the newly introduced Hellbat irrelevant along with bio. So in theory, nerfing the Widow Mine would make the reward of mixing in Hellbats and Thor higher, and while I think the latter works well in the mix, the former certainly doesn't. First of all, the Hellbat is a microless unit. There is no type of new micro you can with this unit that you cannot do with bio units. Therefore it doesn't actually add any new dynamic to the game that terran now mixes this unit into the composition. Nevertheless, that's not the main problem with the change. Rather, it seems obvious to me that they didn't properly understand the implications of the effect of nerfing Widow Mines vs Lings. --> Widow Mines weaker vs Speedlings --> Zerg can basically 1a lings with only minimal micro. At least prepatch zerg would try and send in small groups of units to force the Mine to go off, but terran could remicro against that by killing the units before or unburrowing the Mine. This had the effect of making the Zerg's army weaker when it finally engaged, thus having a unit to kill the Banelings during the battle wasn't as important. --> But postpatch, it is neccesary for the Widow Mine to be strong against Banelings. The Baneling already "counters" both Hellbats and Marines, so besides splitting, terran really has no actual answer to them. --> If you try and retarget Banelings with the Mine, the timer will restart and Zerg units will typically kill it before it gets any hits off. Therefore, Widow Mine micro is typically unpractical. So while the Widow Mine now has received the unit role of being good against Banelings, but... it doesn't fulfill that role at all, and neither does the Siege Tank. In that regard, its quite obvious that Blizzard failed quite badly with the path. IMO fixing the latter solves the balance issue by not having the timer reset when you retarget is by far the best approach. Not only does it reward more micro. I see it having the following advantages; 1) Creates better synergy between Hellbats and Thors and bio units. By reverting splash nerf, Hellbats + Thors become pointless once again. 2) Doesn't increase the risk/reward of lingrunbys/ling harass (which is the case if the splash radius is higher) 3) Rewards more Widow Mine-micro from the terran player 4) Also rewards more micro from the zerg player as he needs to split banelings 5) Gets rid of the high punishment for splitsecond mistakes as the old Widow Mine splash radius suffered from. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 29 2014 00:27 SC2Toastie wrote: Blizzard may have a better plan, but screwing every Terran pro over for month after month sounds like a pretty nasty plan. TvZ shifted from biomine to biomine/biomech/mech/bio, but none of those four options are effective. Terrans drop like flies against inferior opponents. Everybody knows the unit Terran needs to make Mech viable; it's the Siege Tank and the Goliath. The current Tank is laughably weak. The Thor is terrible in whatever role it tries to fill except making it so 30 mutalisk can't engage clumped (magic boxed, they trade evenly). Bio needs the Siege Tank or equivalent splash back as well. Problems in the game currently; 1 Nobody wants to play mech because nobody wants to face Swarmhosts for 2 hours straight, 2 Mutalisk are unkillable, Terran has not a single tool that deals with Mutalisk except for lucky mine hits. 3 Maps grow larger, making Terrans most powerful aggessive tool, the parade push, weaker with every map rotation. 4 Mothership Core prevents every and all aggression Terran could press on early game, making it so Terran fears hundreds of Protoss all ins, and Protoss fears none. 5 Terran builds are so predictable, because there's so many 'things' that have to be build into a Terran build to make it viable (you NEED hellions and early scouting and an early response to Roaches and a fast 2nd CC and either a kill timing OR a fast 3rd CC to keep up with Zerg, you NEED to be able to defend against DT/Oracle, scout early with Reaper, have a fast 2nd CC, get fast medivacs, keep up on upgrades, get very fast stim to survive vs Protoss) while Protoss and Zerg builds can be a lot more versatile - there's nothing Terran can really do that is dangerous to them. 6 Terran CANNOT transition to lategame because every unit whose name does not start with an M is so specialized/pidgeonholed in what it does, that it becomes useless in larger battles. So, sure, explain to me how, IN THE CURRENT STATE OF BALANCE, Blizzard shows 'vision' on balance... I don't see a lot of new possible options. I Just.don't.see.it, and I'd love it if somebody would open my eyes. I'm talking more about nerfing on Terran being fast and hard (Mine radius massive decrease, blueflame half damage, Snipe useless, WOL reaper useless, siege tank from 60 to 35(50) damage, hellbats, etcetera while whenever Terran is in trouble nothing happens. Broodlord infestor was never fixed and was problematic for months on end. The current era of Terran weakness is nearing half a years worth as well. EDIT: Lastly, there is a reason we're seeing a lot more 11/11 cheeses at the moment. That reason is that most Protoss/Zerg players don't even scout early anymore, because they simply don't have to. Terrans are noticing they have pretty much the same (best lol :D?) chance to win with 11/11 as with a macro game. How did I get sucked into this? I was replying about Blizzard's new stance on reactionary nerfs/buffs. Even the widow mine nerf was beta long+ whine fest before they finally succumbed. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 29 2014 00:54 Hider wrote: I think that by nerfing the Widow Mine so it only oneshotted Lings at a radius of 1.25 was the right move. Banelings were less affected as they still died in a radius of 1.5 There was simply no reason fro Widow Mines to be that good vs Lings prepatch as Marines + Medivac already counted it + it made the newly introduced Hellbat irrelevant along with bio. So in theory, nerfing the Widow Mine would make the reward of mixing in Hellbats and Thor higher, and while I think the latter works well in the mix, the former certainly doesn't. First of all, the Hellbat is a microless unit. There is no type of new micro you can with this unit that you cannot do with bio units. Therefore it doesn't actually add any new dynamic to the game that terran now mixes this unit into the composition. Nevertheless, that's not the main problem with the change. Rather, it seems obvious to me that they didn't properly understand the implications of the effect of nerfing Widow Mines vs Lings. --> Widow Mines weaker vs Speedlings --> Zerg can basically 1a lings with only minimal micro. At least prepatch zerg would try and send in small groups of units to force the Mine to go off, but terran could remicro against that by killing the units before or unburrowing the Mine. This had the effect of making the Zerg's army weaker when it finally engaged, thus having a unit to kill the Banelings during the battle wasn't as important. --> But postpatch, it is neccesary for the Widow Mine to be strong against Banelings. The Baneling already "counters" both Hellbats and Marines, so besides splitting, terran really has no actual answer to them. --> If you try and retarget Banelings with the Mine, the timer will restart and Zerg units will typically kill it before it gets any hits off. Therefore, Widow Mine micro is typically unpractical. So while the Widow Mine now has received the unit role of being good against Banelings, but... it doesn't fulfill that role at all, and neither does the Siege Tank. In that regard, its quite obvious that Blizzard failed quite badly with the path. IMO fixing the latter solves the balance issue by not having the timer reset when you retarget is by far the best approach. Not only does it reward more micro, it creates better synergy between Hellbats and Thors and bio units. By reverting splash nerf, Hellbats + Thors become pointless once again. A slight technicality with the Hellbat. It has as much micro potential as a siege tank, in that, due to its transformative nature, you can use the pros of one form to mitigate the cons of the other. Such as move as hellions to a far expansion, then morph to hellbats to engage, proper scanning to see response (or 1337 game sense) to turn back to hellions and retreat. Provides a harass option that doesn't require Medivacs etc... However, in your defense, no one is really testing those uses since it is easier to either use them solely as hellions or solely as hellbats. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 29 2014 00:35 Wombat_NI wrote: I find it hard to disagree really with much of that, Blizzard have been applying plasters to fix issues instead of entering the operating theatre and doing something more radical. Their first implementation of both the oracle and the "shredder" were pretty radical, in fairness to them. They sucked, I understand that, but trying to call them unwilling to be radical is a little harsh. Heck, cloning units was pretty radical as well and would have been had they been aggressively costed instead of only really having siege tanks as the cost effective unit to copy. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
It has as much micro potential as a siege tank, in that, due to its transformative nature, you can use the pros of one form to mitigate the cons of the other. Such as move as hellions to a far expansion, then morph to hellbats to engage, proper scanning to see response (or 1337 game sense) to turn back to hellions and retreat. Provides a harass option that doesn't require Medivacs etc... My post more focussed on whether it added battlemicro or not. At least the Siege Tanks gives players the possiblity of focus firing. Further, it also adds a new dynamic to the game as the zerg reacts to whether the Siege Tanks are sieged up or unsiged. Hellbats, does neither. With mech, I can see transformation upgrade being usefull if upgrade cost was reduced. But bio doesn't really need the Hellbat for harassing purposes as Marines + Medivacs should do a better job of that. Thus, the Hellbat is simply never gonna add any new type of unit control to the battlefield when you mix it in with bio. When that is said, I actual enjoy the impact it has had on mech as it makes it stronger in the midgame (buffs timing attacks). While I think the best approach for TvZ bio is to Widow Mines better when you retarget them (so they keep being weak vs Speedlings, but better with micro against Banelings), I don't think Blizzard should ever have started the project of "redesigning" how bio works in TvZ, " given how unwilling they are in general to make changes //// they only wanna make changes if they are certain its gonna make the game a lot better. The Widow Mine nerf didn't fit there at all. Did Blizzard really think TvZ bio would be a lot more awesome by adding in Hellbats along MMMM? I could see the logic if the Widow Mine created a boring dynamic and it was the Hellbat that had tons of micro potential, but that wasn't the case at all (the reverse is closer to the truth). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 29 2014 00:42 SC2Toastie wrote: Well, making a balance change is REALLY hard, because of the sheer amount of interactions between everything in this game. Yes and no. If you want to change something as huge as the stats of a basic unit (say the Marine, the Zergling, the Stalker, etc.), you will most likely break the game but there are some things with way less repercussions that can be reasonably changed. Consequences are also often foreseeable. The Mine nerf, for instance, was terrible not only because it weakened bio play in TvZ without compensation, but also because it made almost inoffensive one of the two mainstream pressure builds in TvP (i. e. Mine drops). There would have never been so much Blink nonsense in the last months had this nerf not happened because a build that has no detection when one pre-nerf Mine lands in each mineral line in just dies in the following minut(s) or ends up massively behind (as it should). The Mine nerf removed the "you're 100% all-in because there's a Mine slaughtering your mineral line in your base" (one example here) that made Blink builds risky and thus opened the era of Blink builds dominating bio openings. Halving the muta regen, for instance, would not break TvZ. I don't think there would be tragic consequences in ZvP, but I'm not an expert in this match-up so I can't tell. At any rate something should be done about the muta to introduce more risk in harassment. You could also make it so Drilling Claws restores some of the former splash of the Mine (without shield bonus; the unit would be a mess but it already is). The upgrade comes quite late in the game, and by the time it's done Zerg should have time to fully establish his 4-bases infrastructure. Or you could nerf the creep so it provides slightly less vision and recedes a bit faster since the new Mine no longer allows as much creep control as the previous one. There are solutions, but first they have to acknowledge the problems... | ||
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ETisME
12280 Posts
Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta) There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta. And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas. Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper. Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level. terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good? Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 29 2014 01:17 Hider wrote: My post more focussed on whether it added battlemicro or not. At least the Siege Tanks gives players the possiblity of focus firing. Further, it also adds a new dynamic to the game as the zerg reacts to whether the Siege Tanks are sieged up or unsiged. Hellbats, does neither. With mech, I can see transformation upgrade being usefull if upgrade cost was reduced. But bio doesn't really need the Hellbat for harassing purposes as Marines + Medivacs should do a better job of that. Thus, the Hellbat is simply never gonna add any new type of unit control to the battlefield when you mix it in with bio. When that is said, I actual enjoy the impact it has had on mech as it makes it stronger in the midgame (buffs timing attacks). While I think the best approach for TvZ bio is to Widow Mines better when you retarget them (so they keep being weak vs Speedlings, but better with micro against Banelings), I don't think Blizzard should ever have started the project of "redesigning" how bio works in TvZ, " given how unwilling they are in general to make changes //// they only wanna make changes if they are certain its gonna make the game a lot better. The Widow Mine nerf didn't fit there at all. Did Blizzard really think TvZ bio would be a lot more awesome by adding in Hellbats along MMMM? I could see the logic if the Widow Mine created a boring dynamic and it was the Hellbat that had tons of micro potential, but that wasn't the case at all (the reverse is closer to the truth). No disagreements. Hence why I emphasized that it was a technicality. It is academically interesting to be able to hit far flung expansions with heavy hitting units that requires a big response without needing to build a starport--but why would not build a starport? And if its so far flung, what will the expansion have that Hellions can't deal with on their own? The potential of a Transformers esque switching back and forth playstyle is present, but I can't see why one would "practice" it. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta) There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta. And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas. Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper. Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level. terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good? Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points. You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 29 2014 02:07 Faust852 wrote: You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool. Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta) There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta. And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas. Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper. Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level. terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good? Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points. who the hell gets on thor viking raven after opening bio? seriously? when's the last time we saw that in a game? I actually don't even remember. Like is that even possible without the Zerg basically DC'ing? Infestor Broodlord vanished completely cause infestors were nerfed to the ground. Without it being an instant cast spell, it doesn't become a consistent way to deal with bio, and with speed medivacs, getting around the super slow Broodlords is super easy. 3/3 bio+thor can go toe to toe with ultra muta ling baneling infestor? only with amazing splits and the Zerg taking bad engagements. After the midgame, if you haven't done the damage to the Zerg, they can roll you with their ultimate composition and a move through the 3/3 bio/thor comp | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On April 29 2014 02:12 Big J wrote: Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part. p sure that's part of reaching I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta) There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta. And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas. Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper. Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level. terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good? Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points. There's a pretty huge difference between A having a lategame transition and B being able to make up an effective unit tester army. I find it stupid how powerful bio lategame is. But it is also helpless. The other races always have a counter. Terran? Just micro more muahhaha! Broodlord infester ran rampage for months and WAS NEVER FIXED IN WOL. It took a year of neglecting and an expansion to do so Don't tell me Mech is the way to go, there's reasons nobody does it, except for all in timings. Lastly, yes, I will tell you those 4 Terrans are extraordinarilly good compared to the players they usually play again. You also managed to take the only statistic that shows equal balance that you can possibly find. Terran at Dreamhack? The only one in RO4 got there through a FOREIGNER fucking up bigtime and a mirror. Terran in code S? WCS EU/AM? How about that global tournament? Lastly, you failed to adres my other points. I'm not saying Terran is unplayable, as you are putting into my mouth so subtly, I'm saying the races players are not rewarded for their skill as much as P/Z players and are being shafted by poor balancing by Blizzard. Are you going to disagree on that and argue with me? Start being reasonable and use a little less rhetorical tricks, please. Ty. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 29 2014 02:15 Chaggi wrote: p sure that's part of reaching I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go! | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On April 29 2014 02:21 Thieving Magpie wrote: Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go! I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?! | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On April 29 2014 02:12 Big J wrote: Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part. The current meta, at least at my level, make mech so hard to play right now. You generally lose even before getting a 4th since you got so far behind in everything. Zergs always open either fast muta or fast roachs, both forcing you to choose a certain composition (thor for the 1st, tank for the later). Once you managed to get enough thor to repell muta harass and stabilizing your 3rd, the zergs has already switch his tech and his on 4 bases. From there, mass muta become a real pain in the ass, even with a dozen of touret per base. He just keep trading his mutas for your scv and touret while you're being kept at bay since you have to defend your eco and production facility. In the meantime, he has already transition to SH, making powerplay impossible to do and he will just toy with you going from base to base with Muta and locusts. And then you've lost because it's already 25' mark and he has 8 bases as you said. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On April 29 2014 02:21 Thieving Magpie wrote: Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go! Blink allin vs. T is a totally viable strategy. See what I did there? :p Now before anyone flames, this is a balance discussion thread so I am going to discuss balance now :D What exactly do people want? What is "balance." I'm not trolling. Everyone has a different definition of balance and whenever someone brings up win rates it's either valid because it backs their point or "it's not valid because winrates don't mean shit." One day it's the number of Protoss in GM, the other day its win rates, and the third day it's how many Zergs were in the Ro8 of X tournament. There's a question in here.. So to the Terrans, who seem to be the most vocal about being underpowered at the moment: what metric or statistic do you want to see before you are satisfied with balance? Or is it just a "how the game feels" kind of thing? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 29 2014 02:23 Chaggi wrote: I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?! Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 29 2014 02:38 Thieving Magpie wrote: Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better. The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it. | ||
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