On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
Blink allin vs. T is a totally viable strategy.
See what I did there? :p
Now before anyone flames, this is a balance discussion thread so I am going to discuss balance now :D
What exactly do people want? What is "balance." I'm not trolling. Everyone has a different definition of balance and whenever someone brings up win rates it's either valid because it backs their point or "it's not valid because winrates don't mean shit."
One day it's the number of Protoss in GM, the other day its win rates, and the third day it's how many Zergs were in the Ro8 of X tournament.
There's a question in here..
So to the Terrans, who seem to be the most vocal about being underpowered at the moment: what metric or statistic do you want to see before you are satisfied with balance?
Or is it just a "how the game feels" kind of thing?
Having a fair shoot a winning a premier tournament ? Even number of mirror matchup played at pro level (and not 4times less) ? having the feeling that you can win a game fair and square and not to some random aclic in the midgame or sans BS strategy that you can't scout properly, and even if you do, you stilll have more then 50% to lose to it ?
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
Proxy Planetary! Brilliant! They will never suspect it!
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
Fairly sure Tempests are microed because they're often supposed to hit & run.
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
Fairly sure Tempests are microed because they're often supposed to hit & run.
Tempests are about as microable as Command Centers.
Most of the micro happens around them. Blink Stalkers, HT with Storm, Oracles for Revelation, etc. But the Tempests themselves are slow as hell, have a really slow rate of fire, and generally aren't very agile. You mostly tell them to shoot something then right click to move them. That's about it. It's not like Banshees or Marines or Phoenixes..
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
Fairly sure Tempests are microed because they're often supposed to hit & run.
Tempests are about as microable as Command Centers.
Most of the micro happens around them. Blink Stalkers, HT with Storm, Oracles for Revelation, etc. But the Tempests themselves are slow as hell, have a really slow rate of fire, and generally aren't very agile. You mostly tell them to shoot something then right click to move them. That's about it. It's not like Banshees or Marines or Phoenixes..
get proxy tempest and wish tempest can't be microed please.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
Fairly sure Tempests are microed because they're often supposed to hit & run.
Tempests are about as microable as Command Centers.
Most of the micro happens around them. Blink Stalkers, HT with Storm, Oracles for Revelation, etc. But the Tempests themselves are slow as hell, have a really slow rate of fire, and generally aren't very agile. You mostly tell them to shoot something then right click to move them. That's about it. It's not like Banshees or Marines or Phoenixes..
get proxy tempest and wish tempest can't be microed please.
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
Fairly sure Tempests are microed because they're often supposed to hit & run.
Tempests are about as microable as Command Centers.
Most of the micro happens around them. Blink Stalkers, HT with Storm, Oracles for Revelation, etc. But the Tempests themselves are slow as hell, have a really slow rate of fire, and generally aren't very agile. You mostly tell them to shoot something then right click to move them. That's about it. It's not like Banshees or Marines or Phoenixes..
get proxy tempest and wish tempest can't be microed please.
Lol. By this logic supply depots can be microed too.
ForGG vs some random protoss on ladder a while ago, proxy oracle into tempest, forgg lost.
On April 29 2014 02:21 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
Fairly sure Tempests are microed because they're often supposed to hit & run.
Tempests are about as microable as Command Centers.
Most of the micro happens around them. Blink Stalkers, HT with Storm, Oracles for Revelation, etc. But the Tempests themselves are slow as hell, have a really slow rate of fire, and generally aren't very agile. You mostly tell them to shoot something then right click to move them. That's about it. It's not like Banshees or Marines or Phoenixes..
get proxy tempest and wish tempest can't be microed please.
Lol. By this logic supply depots can be microed too.
ForGG vs some random protoss on ladder a while ago, proxy oracle into tempest, forgg lost.
No I understand, I'm just saying it had nothing to do with micro. It had everything to do with parking units out of his range and killing him with them.
Siege Tanks shooting CJ Hero's Assimilators on Outboxer is a clever strategy as well, but it's not micro.
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
Fairly sure Tempests are microed because they're often supposed to hit & run.
Tempests are about as microable as Command Centers.
Most of the micro happens around them. Blink Stalkers, HT with Storm, Oracles for Revelation, etc. But the Tempests themselves are slow as hell, have a really slow rate of fire, and generally aren't very agile. You mostly tell them to shoot something then right click to move them. That's about it. It's not like Banshees or Marines or Phoenixes..
get proxy tempest and wish tempest can't be microed please.
Lol. By this logic supply depots can be microed too.
ForGG vs some random protoss on ladder a while ago, proxy oracle into tempest, forgg lost.
No I understand, I'm just saying it had nothing to do with micro. It had everything to do with parking units out of his range and killing him with them.
Siege Tanks shooting CJ Hero's Assimilators on Outboxer is a clever strategy as well, but it's not micro.
It was always a hit and run play from both players, avoiding to roach the stalker behind with the viking etc. It requires micro.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
Fairly sure Tempests are microed because they're often supposed to hit & run.
Tempests are about as microable as Command Centers.
Most of the micro happens around them. Blink Stalkers, HT with Storm, Oracles for Revelation, etc. But the Tempests themselves are slow as hell, have a really slow rate of fire, and generally aren't very agile. You mostly tell them to shoot something then right click to move them. That's about it. It's not like Banshees or Marines or Phoenixes..
I know they're not very microable, but that's still micro. Focusing mutas with Thors is also micro despite the unit being clunky as hell. Focusing stuff with Sieged Tanks is micro despite the unit not moving at all.
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
x100
I know this was mostly responding to a series of joke posts but I get so tired of hearing about how units have "no micro potential." Like someone doesn't want to make Hellbats because they can't be microed.
Sometimes its just nice to make units that fucking kill things. Hellbats fucking kill things! You think Tempests can be microed? Doesn't stop anyone from making them
That's a pretty poor representation of my critcism of Blizzard. Basically, I criticised Blizzard for the Mine-nerf, since they in that proces wanted to change around the structure of TvZ bio by "forcing" players to mix in Hellbats into their composition. Why on earth would they want to do that? Prepatch Widow Mine rewarded micro and postioning, Hellbats didn't add anything to the game (besides a unit that is better vs Speedlings).
Given how careful Blizzard have said they are with balance changes, why on earth would they want to change something around that generally worked pretty well just to force terrans to add a new unit that cannot be micro'ed into their compostions?
Or did David Kim think terans wouuld start mixing in Tanks and Mines along with bio at the same time? Even thuogh the two units have terrible synergy? I remember back then, arguing that it was never gonna happen and so far I haven't even come close to be prooven wrong. Regardless of how you look at it, the Mine-nerf might was a bad decision on multiple levels. But as I pointed out previously, I can see the advantages of nerfing Widow Mine splash and compensating it in different ways, but that would be a "risky" set of changes, and not something I would advice Blizzard to do given their risk-levels. But the worst thing you can do is to nerf the mine-splash and not properly compensate terran.
It's not flashy but surely you have to focus-fire Tempests manually to get any sort of use out of them, it's not flashy but not all micro necessarily needs to be. Collosus to me should be worse without targeted focus-fire than they are for example
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
I'm suggesting that I wanna do a planetary rush and have it work! Why won't it work!?!
Not enough APM obviously, we just need to play better
That's the problem with you Terrans. You always think more APM = better.
The trick is to just build the Planetary where your opponent cannot see it.
On April 28 2014 17:43 prokofiev wrote: (sorry bad english)
To me, the game is reasonable balanced. The problem is that a protoss player can be high GM with 150 apm, which is impossible to zerg and terran. So, it's easier to protoss.
But the biggest problem of sc2 is that it is easier than BroodWar. So, the difference between very skilled players and skilled ones is small than in BroodWar.
I think that sc2 should have more units, more magics, more micro and macro options, to compensate the decrease of difficulty. For example, the difference between crazy koreans who practice 12h daily everyday from foreigners who pratice 5h a day is not so big as it was in Broodwar. This is not fair and it is less funny.
The game lacks a little bit in skill, talent etc. So... I hope the new version of SC2 become harder to play at the very best level. So, the best will be the best (and there will be new "bonjwa's" etc.)
Obs.: the reason that there is no bonjwa in sc2 is because the game is so easy (easier than BW, at least) that everyone is so close and nobody can be a lot better. It sucks!
This is not true. You can get GM with Z or T with 100 APM on NA, at least. It's all dependent on how efficient you are with your APM.
On April 29 2014 01:22 ETisME wrote: SC2Toastie, if you want to see terran late game, you are more than welcome to watch raven mech. Terran thor viking raven 3 3 bio can deal with tier 3 zerg just fine. (including the not beatable muta)
There is a late game for terran, it's just not easy to get to in the current meta.
And after seeing jjakji and revival, I would say thor and vikings are pretty good against mutas.
Just like you keep complaining about bl infestors never fixed, it vanished from hots completely, I.will just repeat my point again: terran might just need a mid transition between bio and mech and it doesn't have to remove thor to make mech works because mech does works except in tvp, only that it is extremely map specific which has always been the case. The proper fix may have to come in lotv, just like how queen range allowed earlier pressure from reaper.
Terran underperforming is not flash news. But no late game? The fact that even 3 3 bio with thor can kill off ultra muta ling baneling infestors give you an idea how strong it is. That is not even raven bc mech level.
terran dropping like flies in tvz? I think it's more of your mind set making it way worse than it really is. If all 3 styles are not viable, how do we have 4 terrans on top 10 pl players? Or you are going to tell me they are just that good?
Honestly its depressing to have to ignore all the not so subtle "terran is doomed" to really see your points.
You don't even know hard it is to reach raven mech these day in TvZ with the current mappool.
Reaching it is hardly a problem. Not being stuck on 4bases against 8 at 25mins is the hard part.
p sure that's part of reaching
I could stay on 2 bases and get up to raven/viking comp but it's not gonna win me any games ever unless I'm that one Keteroc guy or whatever his name is
Are you suggesting Bronze strats don't work in GM and up? Absurd! Mass planetary turtle on one base go!
Blink allin vs. T is a totally viable strategy.
See what I did there? :p
Now before anyone flames, this is a balance discussion thread so I am going to discuss balance now :D
What exactly do people want? What is "balance." I'm not trolling. Everyone has a different definition of balance and whenever someone brings up win rates it's either valid because it backs their point or "it's not valid because winrates don't mean shit."
One day it's the number of Protoss in GM, the other day its win rates, and the third day it's how many Zergs were in the Ro8 of X tournament.
There's a question in here..
So to the Terrans, who seem to be the most vocal about being underpowered at the moment: what metric or statistic do you want to see before you are satisfied with balance?
Or is it just a "how the game feels" kind of thing?
I think it's a combination of results + difficulty to execute the strategies. Just as an example, lots of people complained about players like Sniper during the BL / Infestor era of WoL but very few complained about Life's results because Life had amazing game sense with constant ling counterattacks / surrounds / other early aggression and didn't rely solely on a slow, boring, easy to execute strategy.
Currently I think HerO is an example of a Protoss player who's been getting less shit than his contemporaries because he uses strategies that are very hard to execute (His sereis vs Polt in the finals of IEM Cologne), and I and many other Terran players posted that the results of that series had nothing to do with balance and that HerO deserved the win.
Really though it's hard to say something like 'Even Race distribution in the Round of 16' and use that as a metric because the quality of players factors in a lot too. At Bucharest Protoss had weak results but they also had fairly weak representation (I would only consider MC and HerO tournament winner caliber players and both are known to be inconsistent, StarDust maybe falls into this category as well) while Zerg had really strong representation (Jaedong Life Leenock Hyun RorO) and Terran representation was pretty mediocre too (Ty, Jjakji, Innovation all in a slump, although it seems like all Terrans are atm except maybe Maru and Polt?).
I think upsets are a pretty good indicator of balance too, when you start to see lots of relatively unknown / known to be mediocre players beating or consistently taking games off of top tier players of other races and it's a trend that continues over long periods of time, it can be an indicator of imbalance.
edit: Definitely an interesting question to look at though.
Oh, and another indicator I think would be variety of strategies, this for sure isn't the end all be all metric of balance (since you can have a balanced-to-winrates game where one player gets lots of options and the other just has to react, albiet a pretty unfun one) but I think the more willing a race is to diversify their strategies generally speaking the better they are doing in the matchup. And I really do mean strategies here, not necessarily openings / all-ins (Protoss doing various 2 base all-ins vs Zerg isn't really diverse strategy, but mixing in a variety of 2 base all-ins with aggressive 3-4 base plays and passive macro games would be).
EPT
