|
On April 29 2014 23:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
I would -LOVE- experimentation with flat out damage buffs (or even +1 range or -1 range on overcharge) to the siege tank. Possibly a +15/20 buff vs all with a fusion core upgrade! Bring back the positional powerhouse!
With current larger an open maps (nerf was with Steppes of War in mind ffs), muta buffs, vipers and half the Protoss anti-tank arsenal still in place, I think testing this out is something not too harmful and might make Terran biotank a TON more interesting.
Upgrade must be really late game though, with the intention of favoring Tank play by giving them longevity, and so it comes after the air transition in mech v bio. Opinions?
Marine tank games are the best games in history of SC2
Bringing some Tank play in TvP is trivial. All you need to do is nerf Hardened Shields in the following way:
- Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are reduced to 10 (unchanged).
- Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10.
Then we would maybe be spared painful sights like this.
For TvZ, it's more complicated but halving the muta regen and having Blinding Cloud reduce the range of units under its effect by X rather than bring it to 1 could result in a bit more Tank play. Not likely with how potent lings/banes concaves are on creep though; Tanks simply lack firepower against that kind of charge.
|
On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'.
You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me...
@thedwf
Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind.
|
On April 29 2014 23:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
I would -LOVE- experimentation with flat out damage buffs (or even +1 range or -1 range on overcharge) to the siege tank. Possibly a +15/20 buff vs all with a fusion core upgrade! Bring back the positional powerhouse!
With current larger an open maps (nerf was with Steppes of War in mind ffs), muta buffs, vipers and half the Protoss anti-tank arsenal still in place, I think testing this out is something not too harmful and might make Terran biotank a TON more interesting.
Upgrade must be really late game though, with the intention of favoring Tank play by giving them longevity, and so it comes after the air transition in mech v bio. Opinions?
Marine tank games are the best games in history of SC2 Bringing some Tank play in TvP is trivial. All you need to do is nerf Hardened Shields in the following way: - Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are reduced to 10 (unchanged). - Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10. Then we would maybe be spared painful sights like this. For TvZ, it's more complicated but halving the muta regen and having Blinding Cloud reduce the range of units under its effect by X rather than bring it to 1 could result in a bit more Tank play. Not likely with how potent lings/banes concaves are on creep though; Tanks simply lack firepower against that kind of charge.
Another big problem with tanks at all in TvZ is the ridiculous immobility they create for your army. With how big the maps are any Zerg going ling/bling/muta is going to give you a hell of a time sieging and unsieging and splitting and stimming over and over as you try to maneuver across the map. Reducing the siege up time would be a huge help but might turn TvT into a total mech fest.
|
How about just making the maps a bit smaller?
Seems that as the maps get bigger, Zerg gets stronger, Protoss stays more or less the same (except for maybe Colossus timing pushes), and Terran gets weaker.
|
On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind.
Haha ok if that is your reason for disliking my entire post I apologize. That is one line out of many and really not even in the subject of the post. And if you are really honest with yourself you will admit that the end of wol zerg basically had to do nothing but inject build drones and get to BL/infestor and then they could afk to victory - this isn't even a debated topic lol.
If you are actually losing to marine/tank/raven w scv pull it's sort of funnyto hear you tell me I need to work on my scouting btw. If you probe scout gas and a reaper doesn't show up you can expect 1-1-1 aggression of some type and it's very easy to stop - good example in Dwf post.
|
On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind.
Yeah, this doesn't really happen at all. I don't even remember the last time I saw a Marine/Tank/Raven w/ SCV push. A WM attack can do big damage if the Protoss doesn't know how to count. Stim bio timings used to catch Protoss off guard, but they're opening not something super greedy now so it's nothing that can really kill the Protoss.
None of these requires a true scout + preparation, all it requires is that the Protoss not be stupid in defending. You have games where pro Terrans scout blink coming, prepare bunkers, and still get crushed. Polt vs herO comes to mind. Where are the deviations in the Protoss build... at all? There's basically none right now.
|
On April 29 2014 23:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
I would -LOVE- experimentation with flat out damage buffs (or even +1 range or -1 range on overcharge) to the siege tank. Possibly a +15/20 buff vs all with a fusion core upgrade! Bring back the positional powerhouse!
With current larger an open maps (nerf was with Steppes of War in mind ffs), muta buffs, vipers and half the Protoss anti-tank arsenal still in place, I think testing this out is something not too harmful and might make Terran biotank a TON more interesting.
Upgrade must be really late game though, with the intention of favoring Tank play by giving them longevity, and so it comes after the air transition in mech v bio. Opinions?
Marine tank games are the best games in history of SC2 Bringing some Tank play in TvP is trivial. All you need to do is nerf Hardened Shields in the following way: - Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are reduced to 10 (unchanged). - Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10. Then we would maybe be spared painful sights like this. For TvZ, it's more complicated but halving the muta regen and having Blinding Cloud reduce the range of units under its effect by X rather than bring it to 1 could result in a bit more Tank play. Not likely with how potent lings/banes concaves are on creep though; Tanks simply lack firepower against that kind of charge.
I've heard tanks firing twice, but with a reduced damage (that equals up to the current tank damage now) could be something interesting to look at. I know my friend's mentioned it, but I'm fairly sure I've read it somewhere here too.
|
On April 29 2014 23:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
I would -LOVE- experimentation with flat out damage buffs (or even +1 range or -1 range on overcharge) to the siege tank. Possibly a +15/20 buff vs all with a fusion core upgrade! Bring back the positional powerhouse!
With current larger an open maps (nerf was with Steppes of War in mind ffs), muta buffs, vipers and half the Protoss anti-tank arsenal still in place, I think testing this out is something not too harmful and might make Terran biotank a TON more interesting.
Upgrade must be really late game though, with the intention of favoring Tank play by giving them longevity, and so it comes after the air transition in mech v bio. Opinions?
Marine tank games are the best games in history of SC2 Bringing some Tank play in TvP is trivial. All you need to do is nerf Hardened Shields in the following way: - Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are reduced to 10 (unchanged). - Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10. Then we would maybe be spared painful sights like this. For TvZ, it's more complicated but halving the muta regen and having Blinding Cloud reduce the range of units under its effect by X rather than bring it to 1 could result in a bit more Tank play. Not likely with how potent lings/banes concaves are on creep though; Tanks simply lack firepower against that kind of charge.
Those are also options, but those involve more interactions in my opinion. While I would like them, I can understand that a diversity of changes like that is hard and not really wanted.
In my opinion, Terran really lacks the abilities to:
A) hold a position without major commitment.
- equivalent to Zerg being able to do this via overlords/creepspread and fast units.
- Protoss doing this by supply free cannons, 2 supply Psionic Storm.
B) release offensive pressure to start a transition to a lategame composition.
Terran usually ends up with 8-ish Barracks, 1-2 Factories, 1-2 Starports and 3/3 bio and low mech upgrades. At the point in time this infrastructure is reached, Terran is forced to trade as much as possible and is in a race against the clock to deal game ending damage. A buff to siege tanks has to enable Terran to secure a fourth and defend it well, loosening the offensive and giving the funds to go upwards to higher tech (which either needs buffs as well after sufficient metagame devellopment shows it doesn't work). Meanwhile we can give the other races options to shut bio down harder (fungal buff, broodlord buff, I think Protoss is fine in this department, but Tank buff is mostly aimed at TvZ).
I think the game would be more fun if this was possible and a valid option. You can finally see Terran transition into more Factories and very positional armies with lethal poke potential in Marines.
On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind.
So, you are saying, a Terran going full all in against a Protoss that plays very greedy and tech heavy deals high economic damage? I don't see the problem, especially giving all the scouting tolls you have.
Might I ask race and rank?
Also, I'm fairly certain a lot of Zergs promoted two leagues at the lolol era of Lings of Liberty.
|
On April 29 2014 23:29 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:25 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2014 23:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
I would -LOVE- experimentation with flat out damage buffs (or even +1 range or -1 range on overcharge) to the siege tank. Possibly a +15/20 buff vs all with a fusion core upgrade! Bring back the positional powerhouse!
With current larger an open maps (nerf was with Steppes of War in mind ffs), muta buffs, vipers and half the Protoss anti-tank arsenal still in place, I think testing this out is something not too harmful and might make Terran biotank a TON more interesting.
Upgrade must be really late game though, with the intention of favoring Tank play by giving them longevity, and so it comes after the air transition in mech v bio. Opinions?
Marine tank games are the best games in history of SC2 Bringing some Tank play in TvP is trivial. All you need to do is nerf Hardened Shields in the following way: - Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are reduced to 10 (unchanged). - Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10. Then we would maybe be spared painful sights like this. For TvZ, it's more complicated but halving the muta regen and having Blinding Cloud reduce the range of units under its effect by X rather than bring it to 1 could result in a bit more Tank play. Not likely with how potent lings/banes concaves are on creep though; Tanks simply lack firepower against that kind of charge. Another big problem with tanks at all in TvZ is the ridiculous immobility they create for your army. With how big the maps are any Zerg going ling/bling/muta is going to give you a hell of a time sieging and unsieging and splitting and stimming over and over as you try to maneuver across the map. Reducing the siege up time would be a huge help but might turn TvT into a total mech fest.
The problem with current Tanks is indeed the massive immobility for no real gain.
If Siege Tanks become much stronger, you can take that immobility because your army becomes a lot stronger and you don't need the speed as much anymore. MLB is a composition with weaknesses that can't keep up with 3/3 bio AND upgraded mech support for a long time. That is a situation I's like to achieve. Weaker lategame bio, stronger lategame hybrids, opened up via a short turtle/transition phase in which Zerg either goes to break the transition or secures More bases and tech.
|
remove or a redesign for sh and wm.
all 1 supply units (marines, lings, ...) except workers are removed or are now 2 supply. We have just too much units on the field if 1supply units are there (especially TvZ).
all T3 units need redesign except Vipers & Ultras. They are utterly boring to watch (too slow, too much damage, ...)
air, melee and range upgrades removed, we need to stop 2sec fights.
|
On April 29 2014 23:39 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:25 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2014 23:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
I would -LOVE- experimentation with flat out damage buffs (or even +1 range or -1 range on overcharge) to the siege tank. Possibly a +15/20 buff vs all with a fusion core upgrade! Bring back the positional powerhouse!
With current larger an open maps (nerf was with Steppes of War in mind ffs), muta buffs, vipers and half the Protoss anti-tank arsenal still in place, I think testing this out is something not too harmful and might make Terran biotank a TON more interesting.
Upgrade must be really late game though, with the intention of favoring Tank play by giving them longevity, and so it comes after the air transition in mech v bio. Opinions?
Marine tank games are the best games in history of SC2 Bringing some Tank play in TvP is trivial. All you need to do is nerf Hardened Shields in the following way: - Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are reduced to 10 (unchanged). - Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10. Then we would maybe be spared painful sights like this. For TvZ, it's more complicated but halving the muta regen and having Blinding Cloud reduce the range of units under its effect by X rather than bring it to 1 could result in a bit more Tank play. Not likely with how potent lings/banes concaves are on creep though; Tanks simply lack firepower against that kind of charge. I've heard tanks firing twice, but with a reduced damage (that equals up to the current tank damage now) could be something interesting to look at. I know my friend's mentioned it, but I'm fairly sure I've read it somewhere here too.
I'd prefer more damage lower speed. It's a fucking siege shell, not an assault rifle :p
Overkill is a cool element to rts!
|
On April 29 2014 23:49 Dingodile wrote:
remove or a redesign for sh and wm.
all 1 supply units (marines, lings, ...) except workers are removed or are now 2 supply. We have just too much units on the field if 1supply units are there (especially TvZ).
all T3 units need redesign except Vipers & Ultras. They are utterly boring to watch (too slow, too much damage, ...)
air, melee and range upgrades removed, we need to stop 2sec fights.
Errr... Nope.
|
On April 29 2014 23:21 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:17 Big J wrote:On April 29 2014 23:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
I would -LOVE- experimentation with flat out damage buffs (or even +1 range or -1 range on overcharge) to the siege tank. Possibly a +15/20 buff vs all with a fusion core upgrade! Bring back the positional powerhouse!
With current larger an open maps (nerf was with Steppes of War in mind ffs), muta buffs, vipers and half the Protoss anti-tank arsenal still in place, I think testing this out is something not too harmful and might make Terran biotank a TON more interesting.
Upgrade must be really late game though, with the intention of favoring Tank play by giving them longevity, and so it comes after the air transition in mech v bio. Opinions?
Marine tank games are the best games in history of SC2 No thanks, Mech vs Zerg can already be boring enough, no need to enforce even longer games by making it even better even later. This is what the guy above me talks about. Mech TvZ has a problem with economy in this game and Zerg lacking strong Anti Air without resorting to SH+Static. It's a problem with Zerg AA (also vs Toss) and SH design.. Lower level players struggling to end mech (it hardly happens in pro levels! Don't bring up 2/3 incidents) is not an argument.
Zerg has no AA problem. They have two very strong antiair units in the form of Corruptors and Infestors. And moveable static defenses. Unless you want to go back to WoL status where zerg was able to clean the board of AtA capable units with fungal+corruptors at will (and then abuse that situation with BLs), I don't know why you bitch about it.
SHs are bonkers, but they are needed, not just because of T/P airplay. Even if the Terran/Protoss doesn't go more air than needed to counter BLs, you'd still have to completely resort to them to stand a chance against Tank/Thor or Colossus/Immortal/Archon/HT based armies.
Their usage has acutally very little to do with the actual airunits of the opponent, but with all the ground support units that have to be kept in check and which are the actual problems for Corruptors/Infestors/Hydras/Queens/Spores/Vipers.
And yes, Mech has a problem in the economy game in the lategame on maps that aren't supereasy to split. So fix that problem (e.g. by nerfing mutalisks, which are the core issue why it is so hard to take bases that aren't in a supertight cluster) instead of rewarding players even more for sitting on their asses doing nothing but massing up hightech Units.
|
On April 29 2014 23:43 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind. So, you are saying, a Terran going full all in against a Protoss that plays very greedy and tech heavy deals high economic damage? I don't see the problem, especially giving all the scouting tolls you have. Might I ask race and rank? Also, I'm fairly certain a lot of Zergs promoted two leagues at the lolol era of Lings of Liberty.
Lol Sc2Toastie there is no problem. That's what I'm trying to say. Unscouted allin should do damage.
|
On April 29 2014 23:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:21 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 29 2014 23:17 Big J wrote:On April 29 2014 23:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
I would -LOVE- experimentation with flat out damage buffs (or even +1 range or -1 range on overcharge) to the siege tank. Possibly a +15/20 buff vs all with a fusion core upgrade! Bring back the positional powerhouse!
With current larger an open maps (nerf was with Steppes of War in mind ffs), muta buffs, vipers and half the Protoss anti-tank arsenal still in place, I think testing this out is something not too harmful and might make Terran biotank a TON more interesting.
Upgrade must be really late game though, with the intention of favoring Tank play by giving them longevity, and so it comes after the air transition in mech v bio. Opinions?
Marine tank games are the best games in history of SC2 No thanks, Mech vs Zerg can already be boring enough, no need to enforce even longer games by making it even better even later. This is what the guy above me talks about. Mech TvZ has a problem with economy in this game and Zerg lacking strong Anti Air without resorting to SH+Static. It's a problem with Zerg AA (also vs Toss) and SH design.. Lower level players struggling to end mech (it hardly happens in pro levels! Don't bring up 2/3 incidents) is not an argument. Zerg has no AA problem. They have two very strong antiair units in the form of Corruptors and Infestors. And moveable static defenses. Unless you want to go back to WoL status where zerg was able to clean the board of AtA capable units with fungal+corruptors at will (and then abuse that situation with BLs), I don't know why you bitch about it. SHs are bonkers, but they are needed, not just because of T/P airplay. Even if the Terran/Protoss doesn't go more air than needed to counter BLs, you'd still have to completely resort to them to stand a chance against Tank/Thor or Colossus/Immortal/Archon/HT based armies. Their usage has acutally very little to do with the actual airunits of the opponent, but with all the ground support units that have to be kept in check and which are the actual problems for Corruptors/Infestors/Hydras/Queens/Spores/Vipers. And yes, Mech has a problem in the economy game in the lategame on maps that aren't supereasy to split. So fix that problem (e.g. by nerfing mutalisks, which are the core issue why it is so hard to take bases that aren't in a supertight cluster) instead of rewarding players even more for sitting on their asses doing nothing but massing up hightech Units.
Zerg has no AA problem? Viking/Raven and Voidrays would like a word with you. I said, Zerg needs SH+Static to supply sufficient anti air to deal with the other races aerial compositions. That, in my opinion, is a weakness, because static defense implies defense, in other words, you're very weak offensively because you cannot engage. I call that weak. Call it whatever you want. Also, I don't like the word 'bitching' either.
You don't have to see everything binary. There's a lot of space between this situation and the 'clean the board of AtA capable units with fungal+corruptors at will' situation. There's grey between black and white.
As for Swarm Hosts, the only reason they are needed is precisely BECAUSE of Air units. Swarm Hosts are the only units capable of allowing your air army to take on the opponents air army by zoning out the ground support at no cost. Zerg armies can deal with Tank/Thor and Collosus/Immortal/Archon/Templar when they have air control, and if the opponent dedicates that much supply to a ground force, well, guess what, you can take air control with corruptors or mutalisk. That, however, is not the case currently, which forces the use of Swarm Hosts and the corresponding situations of awkwardness.
As for the economy + mech situation, we're talking about a different thing.
I'm talking about how easy it currently is against less experienced players to take 4 bases and trollolol yourself to Raven tech. The need to expand to open yourself up for more gasses isn't there, which is a fundemental problem in SC2 economy and has nothing to do with split map situations (which I despise, by the way).
On April 29 2014 23:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:43 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind. So, you are saying, a Terran going full all in against a Protoss that plays very greedy and tech heavy deals high economic damage? I don't see the problem, especially giving all the scouting tolls you have. Might I ask race and rank? Also, I'm fairly certain a lot of Zergs promoted two leagues at the lolol era of Lings of Liberty. Lol Sc2Toastie there is no problem. That's what I'm trying to say. Unscouted allin should do damage.
There is a problem.
If a Terran all in is scouted Terran is dead. fucking dead.
If a Protoss all in is scouted, the succes rate falls from 99% to 45% (numbers pulled out of my buttocks, but you should understand what I talk about).
Terrans want to have all ins that can even the game somehow when they are scouted (Terran is the race with the poorest scouting in the game, don't try to deny that by saying reaper/scan, because neither is as reliable for tech based all ins as overlords/zerglings/stalker/msc/hallucination) and Protoss all ins to be slightly weaker when prepared for.
|
On April 29 2014 23:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:43 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind. So, you are saying, a Terran going full all in against a Protoss that plays very greedy and tech heavy deals high economic damage? I don't see the problem, especially giving all the scouting tolls you have. Might I ask race and rank? Also, I'm fairly certain a lot of Zergs promoted two leagues at the lolol era of Lings of Liberty. Lol Sc2Toastie there is no problem. That's what I'm trying to say. Unscouted allin should do damage.
Unscounted all in's should do damage vs super greedy Protoss. You heard it here folks. Seriously, either watch more, or play more. Your opinions actually blow my mind.
|
On April 29 2014 23:53 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:49 Dingodile wrote:
remove or a redesign for sh and wm.
all 1 supply units (marines, lings, ...) except workers are removed or are now 2 supply. We have just too much units on the field if 1supply units are there (especially TvZ).
all T3 units need redesign except Vipers & Ultras. They are utterly boring to watch (too slow, too much damage, ...)
air, melee and range upgrades removed, we need to stop 2sec fights. Errr... Nope.
I think Errr.... Nope doesn't quite justify as a reply, so here you are with some more.
A) Redisign SH/WM, I'm fine with that. Swarmhost so they become more hit and run, for example, larger Locust footprints which makes the DPS/Area lower. Mines to be come a spammable defensive unit akin to Spider Mines, possibly with AA capability.
B) Lings are .5 supply. Other 1 supply units; Reaper, Observer, Marine. Reapers and Observers really don't warrant more supply IMO. Marines? For sure not. This is a dumb suggestion. Why not lower max supply instead of fucking up early game balance majorly? Oh wait, all of a sudden we don't need a third base anymore. uh-oh, welcome to Warcraft HOTS? I like warcraft, but it's a different game.
C) All T3 units are boring to watch? Templar? Ghost? Raven? Siege Tanks? Broodlords? These are all units with some kind of interesting trait. I don't like how BC/Thor/SH work, those are the only problem cases IMO (I'm taking T3 as lategame here, as SC2 doesn't function with Tiers).
D) Upgrades are one of the most telling differentiations between going for a faster push or for a more lategame oriented style. They allow for stylistic differentiation, different build, new interactions and a lot of timings. We're playing an RTS here, upgrades are a very important part of RTS because they make up a large portion of the S, strategy, part of the game.
Stop 2 sec fights. Yeah, they happen fast, 2 sec is an overstatement and I'd like more spread out/longer fights as well,m but your suggestions... no thanks.
|
On April 30 2014 00:14 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:54 DinoMight wrote:On April 29 2014 23:43 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind. So, you are saying, a Terran going full all in against a Protoss that plays very greedy and tech heavy deals high economic damage? I don't see the problem, especially giving all the scouting tolls you have. Might I ask race and rank? Also, I'm fairly certain a lot of Zergs promoted two leagues at the lolol era of Lings of Liberty. Lol Sc2Toastie there is no problem. That's what I'm trying to say. Unscouted allin should do damage. Unscounted all in's should do damage vs super greedy Protoss. You heard it here folks. Seriously, either watch more, or play more. Your opinions actually blow my mind.
They do deal damage to super greedy Protoss, it's just nigh impossible to keep them well hidden, so no Protoss is too greedy. That, combined with Protoss builds having some build in safety (MSC qq qq) to allow for easier defensive responses.
But don't think an unscouted Terran all in can't be really vicious.
|
On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind.
I've never seen nor heard of a marine / tank / raven all-in working in a professional match, and the 1/1/1 has been figured out for a long time in WoL and it included a raven.
But I'll give you the 8min premedivac stim timing, it almost never wins games outright but it can do quite a bit of damage if unscouted. This is pretty much the only thing Protoss needs to look out for in the first 8 minutes of the game unless their build doesn't include a robo.
|
On April 30 2014 00:47 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 23:26 DinoMight wrote:On April 29 2014 23:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
This is why this thread has a bad reputation, people like DinoMight responding to a long well written suggestion with `l2p, brah'. You think it's well written. I think it's a pile of crap. Claiming that Gold Zergs got to Masters on the back of the queen range buff sounds a bit QQ-y to me... @thedwf Marine tank raven w/ SCV pull if unscouted is basically unbeatable. Any sort of rushed out widow mine attack can do big damage. Pre-medivac sim bio push that catches P with too few units. Even just standard mech play if unscouted can crush you. Say what you will about how allin these things are, but my comment stands - if P doesn't scout for these things they can do a lot of economic damage. And if they get scouted and defended properly T is behind. I've never seen nor heard of a marine / tank / raven all-in working in a professional match, and the 1/1/1 has been figured out for a long time in WoL and it included a raven. But I'll give you the 8min premedivac stim timing, it almost never wins games outright but it can do quite a bit of damage if unscouted. This is pretty much the only thing Protoss needs to look out for in the first 8 minutes of the game unless their build doesn't include a robo.
Maru v San on MGR last week at GSL GT
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
