On April 30 2014 01:28 DinoMight wrote: I really like the pace of SC2 to be honest. Feels like a legit sport and not just watching a bunch of people play WoW.
WC3 battles felt really really slow to me.
It's kind of like watching soccer where a game can be going nowhere for 50 minutes and then all of a sudden you see two quick goals back to back. That's what makes it exciting, that something can happen at any time that changes the outcome of the game and the pace is fast.
I don't want/need to watch 5 little units beating each other over the head for 5 minutes. I'd rather just see who wins that fight and move onto the next one. The planning/positioning/dancing before the fight and reaction to scouting is much more interesting.
Well, I for one like seeing low unit counts with intensive micro. I don't like LAZ0rTO5S disintegrating 3 Zerg remaxes in a row (an example, not a complaint!), but I suppose we can disagree on that. No offense, but maybe Civilization V is more your kind of game ?
Technically, he said Soccer was his kind of game. I understand his comments though. Watching boxing is fun and all, but in the end its just two dudes microing their fists off for 6-12 rounds and I'd rather watch something like Hockey.
Civilization is also the opposite of what you're talking about since Civ is all about slow grindy fights with each engagement lasting for very very long periods of time.
Yes, my example was sarcastic, but it came out poor :p
The thing with field hockey/soccer is, there's a lot of strategy going on, move like that to force this to open up that path and pass through that gaping hole in the defense and manouver lalalalalalalla etcetcetcetc.
I agree in SC2 shit dies FAST. way too fast. Because everything is close. Because spreading out is not rewarded. Because the economy caps at 3 bases. Read up on the old FRB by Barrin, an initiative that wanted bases to mine out faster. It was interesting and very promising.
No disagreement from me.
I could see where he was coming from but I'm not exactly on that boat. I do see a lot of the strategy in hockey and soccer within starcraft 2 in the whole positioning game. As both players try to get the proper concave and spread, constant scan/observer/ling pokes to always see the opponent's movement etc... Its very fun in a cerebral sort of way.
But seeing observer micro just isn't very sexy. Like, I know that moving the observer in just the right way to prevent it getting sniped is difficult and takes skill. But it just doesn't wow me.
No, but do you enjoy the situations that occur when zealot micro occurs after a 2gate? Think Parting v Classic. Damn, that shit gets me all shiverry! Fights of 6 hellions vs 4 hellions and 3 marines. Those small skirmishes are exciting because they are easy to understand, distinguish, and the micro and counter micro going on is amazing. Too many battles in SC2 come down to positioning and composition.
On April 30 2014 01:28 DinoMight wrote: I really like the pace of SC2 to be honest. Feels like a legit sport and not just watching a bunch of people play WoW.
WC3 battles felt really really slow to me.
It's kind of like watching soccer where a game can be going nowhere for 50 minutes and then all of a sudden you see two quick goals back to back. That's what makes it exciting, that something can happen at any time that changes the outcome of the game and the pace is fast.
I don't want/need to watch 5 little units beating each other over the head for 5 minutes. I'd rather just see who wins that fight and move onto the next one. The planning/positioning/dancing before the fight and reaction to scouting is much more interesting.
Well, I for one like seeing low unit counts with intensive micro. I don't like LAZ0rTO5S disintegrating 3 Zerg remaxes in a row (an example, not a complaint!), but I suppose we can disagree on that. No offense, but maybe Civilization V is more your kind of game ?
Technically, he said Soccer was his kind of game. I understand his comments though. Watching boxing is fun and all, but in the end its just two dudes microing their fists off for 6-12 rounds and I'd rather watch something like Hockey.
Civilization is also the opposite of what you're talking about since Civ is all about slow grindy fights with each engagement lasting for very very long periods of time.
Yes, my example was sarcastic, but it came out poor :p
The thing with field hockey/soccer is, there's a lot of strategy going on, move like that to force this to open up that path and pass through that gaping hole in the defense and manouver lalalalalalalla etcetcetcetc.
I agree in SC2 shit dies FAST. way too fast. Because everything is close. Because spreading out is not rewarded. Because the economy caps at 3 bases. Read up on the old FRB by Barrin, an initiative that wanted bases to mine out faster. It was interesting and very promising.
No disagreement from me.
I could see where he was coming from but I'm not exactly on that boat. I do see a lot of the strategy in hockey and soccer within starcraft 2 in the whole positioning game. As both players try to get the proper concave and spread, constant scan/observer/ling pokes to always see the opponent's movement etc... Its very fun in a cerebral sort of way.
But seeing observer micro just isn't very sexy. Like, I know that moving the observer in just the right way to prevent it getting sniped is difficult and takes skill. But it just doesn't wow me.
No, but do you enjoy the situations that occur when zealot micro occurs after a 2gate? Think Parting v Classic. Damn, that shit gets me all shiverry! Fights of 6 hellions vs 4 hellions and 3 marines. Those small skirmishes are exciting because they are easy to understand, distinguish, and the micro and counter micro going on is amazing. Too many battles in SC2 come down to positioning and composition.
No, you must have misunderstood because I do agree with you. I said I saw where he was coming from but I was not on the same boat as he was.
One of my favorite skirmishes was a HSC between MC and Puzzle where they met in the middle of the map with equal sized blink stalkers and over the coarse of 2-3 minutes MC literally outblinked his opponent and ended with a larger army purely on hand speed and unit control alone.
I remember the Naniwa vs Huk proxy 2gate fiasco that was nail biting. I still miss all the timings Hopetorture used to do in Season 1 of the GSL.
Heck, I still miss watching pre-nerf reapers during the era of Morrow and Idra.
I guess the difference is some just don't get off on only watching micro.
I enjoy watching people micro the shit out of a unit, but only when it's necessary to accomplish something. Parting vs. Classic on habitation where Classic Proxy 2 gated and Parting held it off without scouting... that was mind blowing. Or the unforgettable HerO vs. Life on Antiga Shipyard....
But watching MKP for me doesn't really do anything beyond "hey look how good MKP is at micro too bad he's going to lose anyway because his build is garbage."
I really enjoy watching guys like Taeja make sick reads off of very minimal scouting information. That wows me more than any sort of stutter step or baneling splitting to be honest.
And I like watching sick flanks and trick attacks. Scarlett's baneling bombs vs. bomber on habitation at Red Bull is another example. Or sOs tricking his opponent into going Vikings with hallucinated Colos.
On April 30 2014 03:01 SC2Toastie wrote:This took me 40 minutes to find
Their VOD system is such a nightmare now.
It used to be so good too...
Well, it's labeled on match, all spoilerfree on youtube. I can understand the intend of that, but it's hard to get through to the certain game you're looking for Need liquipedia support
On April 30 2014 02:54 DinoMight wrote: I guess the difference is some just don't get off on only watching micro.
I enjoy watching people micro the shit out of a unit, but only when it's necessary to accomplish something. Parting vs. Classic on habitation where Classic Proxy 2 gated and Parting held it off without scouting... that was mind blowing. Or the unforgettable HerO vs. Life on Antiga Shipyard....
But watching MKP for me doesn't really do anything beyond "hey look how good MKP is at micro too bad he's going to lose anyway because his build is garbage."
I really enjoy watching guys like Taeja make sick reads off of very minimal scouting information. That wows me more than any sort of stutter step or baneling splitting to be honest.
And I like watching sick flanks and trick attacks. Scarlett's baneling bombs vs. bomber on habitation at Red Bull is another example. Or sOs tricking his opponent into going Vikings with hallucinated Colos.
One can't only enjoy Chess for its fancy double pronged Knight tricks, nor can one only enjoy chess for its forced check sequences.
So yes, I understand your interest in "larger scale" unit control as opposed to small scale unit control.
I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in).
In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure.
I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK.
On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote: I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in).
In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure.
I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK.
my 2 cents
This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats
I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra.
On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote: I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in).
In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure.
I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK.
my 2 cents
This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats
I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra.
Time Warp is pretty much amazing for any situation, all in or not. And the fact that blink has been effectively neutered, means that any form of reliable Terran scouting option has been as well. Unless the Toss is completely out of position, a reaper can't actually get into the base after like 6 or 630. Very hard to see what tech path the Protoss is going.
On April 28 2014 13:03 Ben... wrote: It's just like how people say that we didn't know the problems about infestor/broodlord until after the queen patch or until well after the infestor patch. The community knew about it, and David Kim knew about it (Here's the interview where he talked about it. Sadly the video is gone, so instead I will link page 2 because Torte De Lini's summary covers what the interview was about). As a fun side activity, look at some of the stuff people were saying.
People also forget how much the early game impacts the late game. After the queen patch, it allowed Zergs to take a quick third base and defend early aggression, making Terrans play more passive and start opening 1 rax CC as opposed to reactored hellions into expansion, which was the prior standard. This limited creep spread and Zerg to two base, meaning Zerg couldn't amass a million drones super early off pure injects. This leads to completely new timings that will significantly affect the lategame.
That is untrue. If anything, T would contain Z on two bases and started amassing Orbitals at the same time and upgrading his infantry on two ebays. There was no double-evo (other than for hellion-blocking purpose) before the queen patch. That did not look quite right to me in that Z is supposed to be "greedier" race but the situation was often the opposite. With slow Overlords, T basically could deny scouting and do whatever they want while putting Z down on 2 bases. The match-up was quite coin-flippy unless there were two evenly matched players decided to play mannered games.
I am unsure of the necessity of mine nerf (and the degree of it) but I am certain that queen patch was necessary. It did take some time for T to adapt and I regret the emergence of patchzergs, but it was a necessary change nonetheless.
On April 28 2014 13:03 Ben... wrote: It's just like how people say that we didn't know the problems about infestor/broodlord until after the queen patch or until well after the infestor patch. The community knew about it, and David Kim knew about it (Here's the interview where he talked about it. Sadly the video is gone, so instead I will link page 2 because Torte De Lini's summary covers what the interview was about). As a fun side activity, look at some of the stuff people were saying.
People also forget how much the early game impacts the late game. After the queen patch, it allowed Zergs to take a quick third base and defend early aggression, making Terrans play more passive and start opening 1 rax CC as opposed to reactored hellions into expansion, which was the prior standard. This limited creep spread and Zerg to two base, meaning Zerg couldn't amass a million drones super early off pure injects. This leads to completely new timings that will significantly affect the lategame.
That is untrue. If anything, T would contain Z on two bases and started amassing Orbitals at the same time and upgrading his infantry on two ebays. There was no double-evo (other than for hellion-blocking purpose) before the queen patch. That did not look quite right to me in that Z is supposed to be "greedier" race but the situation was often the opposite. With slow overlords, T basically could deny scouting and do whatever they want while putting Z down on 2 bases.
I am unsure of the necessity of mine nerf (and the degree of it) but I am certain that queen patch was necessary. It did take some time for T to adapt, but it was a necessary change.
T did not adapt. TvZ plunged until the expansion's release.
Protoss adapted, and would regularly get to a lategame war where two armies stared at each other and the first mistake lost the game (usually centered around the mothership core)
On April 28 2014 13:03 Ben... wrote: It's just like how people say that we didn't know the problems about infestor/broodlord until after the queen patch or until well after the infestor patch. The community knew about it, and David Kim knew about it (Here's the interview where he talked about it. Sadly the video is gone, so instead I will link page 2 because Torte De Lini's summary covers what the interview was about). As a fun side activity, look at some of the stuff people were saying.
People also forget how much the early game impacts the late game. After the queen patch, it allowed Zergs to take a quick third base and defend early aggression, making Terrans play more passive and start opening 1 rax CC as opposed to reactored hellions into expansion, which was the prior standard. This limited creep spread and Zerg to two base, meaning Zerg couldn't amass a million drones super early off pure injects. This leads to completely new timings that will significantly affect the lategame.
That is untrue. If anything, T would contain Z on two bases and started amassing Orbitals at the same time and upgrading his infantry on two ebays. There was no double-evo (other than for hellion-blocking purpose) before the queen patch. That did not look quite right to me in that Z is supposed to be "greedier" race but the situation was often the opposite. With slow Overlords, T basically could deny scouting and do whatever they want while putting Z down on 2 bases. The match-up was quite coin-flippy unless there were two evenly matched players decided to play mannered games.
I am unsure of the necessity of mine nerf (and the degree of it) but I am certain that queen patch was necessary. It did take some time for T to adapt and I regret the emergence of patchzergs, but it was a necessary change nonetheless.
Do you think the game was balanced after the queen patch, really ?
Queen range prior to the patch was what, 3? Terran had zero risk other than unscouted all-ins from Z (which were exceedingly rare) moving out on the map and toying with Z. Marines, marauders, and hellions could infinitely kite around the Z's natural until Z researched zergling speed. By the time zerglign speed was done, T would have sizable force of MM army so that they need not worry about confrontation, and I watched endless amount of 3rd hatchery cancels.
Only thing that kept T infantry at bay was spine crawlers which were by definition defensive and T would happily construct additional Orbital when they detect mass static defense. Creep tumors were rarely pushed out of Z's natural, and Z's often relied on lucky sneakout of a pack of zerglings to keep T's awake.
On May 03 2014 09:16 usethis2 wrote: Queen range prior to the patch was what, 3? Terran had zero risk other than unscouted all-ins from Z (which were exceedingly rare) moving out on the map and toying with Z. Marines, marauders, and hellions could infinitely kite around the Z's natural until Z researched zergling speed. By the time zerglign speed was done, T would have sizable force of MM army so that they need not worry about confrontation, and I watched endless amount of 3rd hatchery cancels.
Only thing that kept T infantry at bay was spine crawlers which were by definition defensive and T would happily construct additional Orbital when they detect mass static defense. Creep tumors were rarely pushed out of Z's natural, and Z's often relied on lucky sneakout of a pack of zerglings to keep T's awake.
So you toss aside everything that prooved that TvZ was total shit after the queen patch because of your own point of view?
I am saying the matchup did not look balanced to me prior to the patch. Especially when two very high-level code S players were matched. Every game looked like an uphill battle for the Z unless there was some lucky break. (like many DRG v. Bomber/MKP games at that time, for example)
It is unfortunate that lower-skilled Z players (e.g. Symbol) did rack up underserving wins and the game developed to unexpected directions in some aspect, especially in PvZ, but the patch was a necessary one which would have arrived anyway if not then.
EPT
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