On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
IIRC (and I probably do) it was around 50% during BL infestor era. That's because of the immortal sentry obviously.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
IIRC (and I probably do) it was around 50% during BL infestor era. That's because of the immortal sentry obviously.
Usually around 46-48%. Interesting fact is that between April 2011 and October 2013 ZvP was above 50% in 30 from 31 months.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
On May 03 2014 16:30 usethis2 wrote: I am sure some people will argue those are not some random Terrans - I won't argue against inherent subjective stuff but what's indisputable is that the top zergs were never safe against any code S terran and they did take losses while many champion level terrans rarely lost to non-champion level zergs. It was after the queen patch where a better zerg had visibly higher chances against lesser Ts. (I agree there were patchzergs, however)
Are you completely oblivious to the fact that the reverse became not only true but even worse after the patch? Previously top level Terrans suddenly had absolutely no chance against Zergs. Foreigner Zergs started beating Korean Terrans. We watched game after game after game where Zergs would tech up to hive for free in 13 minutes, roll out the infestor/brood lord train, and even when their Terran opponents played fabulously well, it was still nothing more than a slow death animation most of the time.
Sorry friend, but if you honestly think that pre-patch TvZ was worse than post-patch, you're living in a dreamworld.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
Which stats are deceiving?
50/50 doesn't imply the matchup is "balanced" unless you consider WoL ZvP balanced by bl infestors vs sentries immortal
There were valid zerg complaints--they're misremembering what those were however.
The problem with being purely in the back foot during the early game is that at no point was there a "safe" moment to tech/drone up and a misread by zerg usually lost them the game. Too few defenses? Blueflame roasts workers. Too much defenses? Triple orbital plus a planetary on the third. Etc... This gave Zerg a feeling of helplessness since they were taught to make troops until you feel safe, then drone non-stop. But when there is no safe moment in a metagame, non-DRG players simply looked like a sack of a rice in an Asian restaurant.
Zerg players did not having a timing they could lean on, and most players can't scout for shit. This lead to a lot of zerg players losing to runbys that DRG and his ilk defend with ease. Now, the advantage zerg had was that during this time if both players played perfect--zerg would win each time. But since the margin of error was soooo tight, the winner was literally who made the fewest mistakes (also known as the player who executes the best).
Terran would quickly be put into the similar position zerg was in during the early game once the game got to the midgame. Once Zerg econ kicked in the ability to tech switch so smoothly back and forth usually got the terran turtling while upgrades got researched. Its not until this time that terran starts dying to seemingly "random" things. This created the illusion to zerg players that terran had it so easy--when it was anything but.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
Which stats are deceiving?
50/50 doesn't imply the matchup is "balanced" unless you consider WoL ZvP balanced by bl infestors vs sentries immortal
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
Which stats are deceiving?
50/50 doesn't imply the matchup is "balanced" unless you consider WoL ZvP balanced by bl infestors vs sentries immortal
The complaint at the time for ZvP was not about balance but boredom.
BL/Infestor vs Momma Core/Colossus was actually a dead even fight with both sides literally turtling for 30-45 minutes to build their perfect armies. People got bored as hell. Parting became the most exciting protoss player--*because* he did Immortal pushes. But no, at no point was there a balance problem because there was no imbalance. Parting and a few of the top protosses could consistently soul train but most protosses just stumbled like a kid running in the dark. Both strats in the matchup always allowed the better player to win. But they were just boring looking strats. That was the problem with ZvP, not balance.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
Which stats are deceiving?
50/50 doesn't imply the matchup is "balanced" unless you consider WoL ZvP balanced by bl infestors vs sentries immortal
The complaint at the time for ZvP was not about balance but boredom.
BL/Infestor vs Momma Core/Colossus was actually a dead even fight with both sides literally turtling for 30-45 minutes to build their perfect armies. People got bored as hell. Parting became the most exciting protoss player--*because* he did Immortal pushes. But no, at no point was there a balance problem because there was no imbalance. Parting and a few of the top protosses could consistently soul train but most protosses just stumbled like a kid running in the dark. Both strats in the matchup always allowed the better player to win. But they were just boring looking strats. That was the problem with ZvP, not balance.
I know, I am not arguing against that at all. (also it is mothership only) you are missing my point. my point is, if you want to say that matchup was balanced, well you can't use 50/50 win rate and call it balanced.
ZvT pre queen buff win rates looked balanced but a lot of the games were all ins and hard snowballing like queen mis positioning and loses 20 drones at 10 mins mark.
even if overall balance is 50/50, there are too much imbalanceness in different point of time
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
Which stats are deceiving?
50/50 doesn't imply the matchup is "balanced" unless you consider WoL ZvP balanced by bl infestors vs sentries immortal
The complaint at the time for ZvP was not about balance but boredom.
BL/Infestor vs Momma Core/Colossus was actually a dead even fight with both sides literally turtling for 30-45 minutes to build their perfect armies. People got bored as hell. Parting became the most exciting protoss player--*because* he did Immortal pushes. But no, at no point was there a balance problem because there was no imbalance. Parting and a few of the top protosses could consistently soul train but most protosses just stumbled like a kid running in the dark. Both strats in the matchup always allowed the better player to win. But they were just boring looking strats. That was the problem with ZvP, not balance.
I know, I am not arguing against that at all. (also it is mothership only) you are missing my point. my point is, if you want to say that matchup was balanced, well you can't use 50/50 win rate and call it balanced.
ZvT pre queen buff win rates looked balanced but a lot of the games were all ins and hard snowballing like queen mis positioning and loses 20 drones at 10 mins mark.
even if overall balance is 50/50, there are too much imbalanceness in different point of time
I agree winrates alone don't say everything about balance.
But, Pre patch ZvT was not an impossible all-in or snowball fest (which, btw, every matchup is, atm) like you make it out to be. Zerg had to scout and react very well, just as Terran was pressured to deal actual damage. The matchup was in an excellent state.
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
Which stats are deceiving?
50/50 doesn't imply the matchup is "balanced" unless you consider WoL ZvP balanced by bl infestors vs sentries immortal
The complaint at the time for ZvP was not about balance but boredom.
BL/Infestor vs Momma Core/Colossus was actually a dead even fight with both sides literally turtling for 30-45 minutes to build their perfect armies. People got bored as hell. Parting became the most exciting protoss player--*because* he did Immortal pushes. But no, at no point was there a balance problem because there was no imbalance. Parting and a few of the top protosses could consistently soul train but most protosses just stumbled like a kid running in the dark. Both strats in the matchup always allowed the better player to win. But they were just boring looking strats. That was the problem with ZvP, not balance.
I know, I am not arguing against that at all. (also it is mothership only) you are missing my point. my point is, if you want to say that matchup was balanced, well you can't use 50/50 win rate and call it balanced.
ZvT pre queen buff win rates looked balanced but a lot of the games were all ins and hard snowballing like queen mis positioning and loses 20 drones at 10 mins mark.
even if overall balance is 50/50, there are too much imbalanceness in different point of time
Except that was not happening in ZvT at the time.
That "misplaced queen 20 drones die" was a long non-stop 10 minutes of non-stop poking since the terran player would be poking with 4-6 hellions, then 10-16 hellions, then blueflame pops up, in which case they're poking again and if the zerg player couldn't perry the pokes then he'd lose workers. But it was not at all a series of random all-ins since rarely did zerg lose to the all-ins and rarely did terran employ them.
The problem was not all-ins, but instead it was the lack of safe time for zergs. The first 15-20 minutes of the game the zerg had to be on top of the ball at all times or they lose. it wasn't a "stop the rush, now drone" type game. It was an overlapping layered attack where each series of strikes began a few seconds before the previous one ended creating a situation where zerg never felt like they were in control (or even winning).
On May 03 2014 16:25 ETisME wrote: you can argue for bl infestors being too easy to get, i can also argue bl infestors was way too hard to get while terran bio was too easily replacable and upgrades snowball too hard. get the idea?
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
Which stats are deceiving?
50/50 doesn't imply the matchup is "balanced" unless you consider WoL ZvP balanced by bl infestors vs sentries immortal
The complaint at the time for ZvP was not about balance but boredom.
BL/Infestor vs Momma Core/Colossus was actually a dead even fight with both sides literally turtling for 30-45 minutes to build their perfect armies. People got bored as hell. Parting became the most exciting protoss player--*because* he did Immortal pushes. But no, at no point was there a balance problem because there was no imbalance. Parting and a few of the top protosses could consistently soul train but most protosses just stumbled like a kid running in the dark. Both strats in the matchup always allowed the better player to win. But they were just boring looking strats. That was the problem with ZvP, not balance.
I know, I am not arguing against that at all. (also it is mothership only) you are missing my point. my point is, if you want to say that matchup was balanced, well you can't use 50/50 win rate and call it balanced.
ZvT pre queen buff win rates looked balanced but a lot of the games were all ins and hard snowballing like queen mis positioning and loses 20 drones at 10 mins mark.
even if overall balance is 50/50, there are too much imbalanceness in different point of time
Except that was not happening in ZvT at the time.
That "misplaced queen 20 drones die" was a long non-stop 10 minutes of non-stop poking since the terran player would be poking with 4-6 hellions, then 10-16 hellions, then blueflame pops up, in which case they're poking again and if the zerg player couldn't perry the pokes then he'd lose workers. But it was not at all a series of random all-ins since rarely did zerg lose to the all-ins and rarely did terran employ them.
The problem was not all-ins, but instead it was the lack of safe time for zergs. The first 15-20 minutes of the game the zerg had to be on top of the ball at all times or they lose. it wasn't a "stop the rush, now drone" type game. It was an overlapping layered attack where each series of strikes began a few seconds before the previous one ended creating a situation where zerg never felt like they were in control (or even winning).
I hope we're not arguing that blue flame build was imbalanced. It was pretty devastating if it went completely unscouted, but if Zerg played even a little prepared it wasn't anything spectacular. Same story post-queen patch, for that matter; I believe it was that build that knocked Stephano out of the GSL, because he refused to prepare for his opponents so he didn't respond to it.
ZvT at the time was considered pretty balanced, in that Zerg had a potential answer to everything Terran could throw, although there was some complaint that it was too hard to know what Terran might try. This, I assume, was the reason why Blizzard felt the overlord speed buff was necessary. Why they thought the queen change was necessary too is beyond me. That change was implemented so abruptly and haphazardly, when the game didn't show basically any sign of needing it for balance purposes. I got the impression that they did it, not for balance, but because range 5 queens felt like slightly better design – and in general I'd agree, but not at the cost of destroying game balance.
If you take the dominant strategy from one side in a relatively balanced non-mirror matchup, and patch the game – quite suddenly – so that strategy no longer works, you're going to have balance problems. That should be obvious a priori. That's exactly what happened with hellion contains TvZ, and sure enough the match-up suffered for months afterward.
Both sides can argue, only one side has statistics behind its claim, thats the difference. I seriously can't believe people still arguing validity of queen buff, i was hoping that 10 months of Zerg dominance in ZvT post patch would close this discussion.
are you telling me WoL PvZ was balanced then? 50/50 right?
The queen needed a buff, it needed +1 range, not +2. but claiming pre queen buff TvZ was fun to watch? I guess if you like to watch all ins and terran snowballing, then yea.
Go back watch some of those TvZ. Even the great DRG vs MMA was filled with all ins. game 1 roach ling all in game 3 marauder hellion all in game 4 marauder hellion all in game 5 roach ling baneling all in
it is even missing bfhellion all ins, mass hellions, cloak banshee, 2 port banshees which were all fairly common back then.
I claim TvZ was was balanced pre and inbalanced post patch. Also surely more fun to watch also. PvZ was Zerg favoured most of the WoL.
you mentioned stats, I gave you an example of how it can be deceiving I didn't say tvz was not fun to watch, i said it is fun if you like all ins and snowballing
Which stats are deceiving?
50/50 doesn't imply the matchup is "balanced" unless you consider WoL ZvP balanced by bl infestors vs sentries immortal
The complaint at the time for ZvP was not about balance but boredom.
BL/Infestor vs Momma Core/Colossus was actually a dead even fight with both sides literally turtling for 30-45 minutes to build their perfect armies. People got bored as hell. Parting became the most exciting protoss player--*because* he did Immortal pushes. But no, at no point was there a balance problem because there was no imbalance. Parting and a few of the top protosses could consistently soul train but most protosses just stumbled like a kid running in the dark. Both strats in the matchup always allowed the better player to win. But they were just boring looking strats. That was the problem with ZvP, not balance.
I know, I am not arguing against that at all. (also it is mothership only) you are missing my point. my point is, if you want to say that matchup was balanced, well you can't use 50/50 win rate and call it balanced.
ZvT pre queen buff win rates looked balanced but a lot of the games were all ins and hard snowballing like queen mis positioning and loses 20 drones at 10 mins mark.
even if overall balance is 50/50, there are too much imbalanceness in different point of time
Except that was not happening in ZvT at the time.
That "misplaced queen 20 drones die" was a long non-stop 10 minutes of non-stop poking since the terran player would be poking with 4-6 hellions, then 10-16 hellions, then blueflame pops up, in which case they're poking again and if the zerg player couldn't perry the pokes then he'd lose workers. But it was not at all a series of random all-ins since rarely did zerg lose to the all-ins and rarely did terran employ them.
The problem was not all-ins, but instead it was the lack of safe time for zergs. The first 15-20 minutes of the game the zerg had to be on top of the ball at all times or they lose. it wasn't a "stop the rush, now drone" type game. It was an overlapping layered attack where each series of strikes began a few seconds before the previous one ended creating a situation where zerg never felt like they were in control (or even winning).
I hope we're not arguing that blue flame build was imbalanced. It was pretty devastating if it went completely unscouted, but if Zerg played even a little prepared it wasn't anything spectacular. Same story post-queen patch, for that matter; I believe it was that build that knocked Stephano out of the GSL, because he refused to prepare for his opponents so he didn't respond to it.
ZvT at the time was considered pretty balanced, in that Zerg had a potential answer to everything Terran could throw, although there was some complaint that it was too hard to know what Terran might try. This, I assume, was the reason why Blizzard felt the overlord speed buff was necessary. Why they thought the queen change was necessary too is beyond me. That change was implemented so abruptly and haphazardly, when the game didn't show basically any sign of needing it for balance purposes. I got the impression that they did it, not for balance, but because range 5 queens felt like slightly better design – and in general I'd agree, but not at the cost of destroying game balance.
If you take the dominant strategy from one side in a relatively balanced non-mirror matchup, and patch the game – quite suddenly – so that strategy no longer works, you're going to have balance problems. That should be obvious a priori. That's exactly what happened with hellion contains TvZ, and sure enough the match-up suffered for months afterward.
I wasn't talking about Blueflame build being imbalanced, I was talking about the fact that it wasn't some all in since the nature of TvZ at the time Terran had the option of continuing to make hellions or stopping at 2-4. The "blueflame hellion build" was one that could be eased into depending on scouting and was as likely to pop up as a marine/tank timing or a mass marine train. All of them easy enough to stop so long as the zerg never stopped remaining active.
I was saying that the reason people felt that "terran just all-in every game pre-patch" was because as zerg players they were told that there would be this moment where nothing was happening and they could drone all day when in reality the meta had shifted that zerg had to simply make 2-4 workers at a time as needed while continually having to make troops and scout. Of course they would feel like terran had these all-ins because they wanted to be like Ret/Idra and simply make 90+ drones before making your second set of zerglings instead of players like DRG, Losira, Nestea who constantly threatened and maintained midgame aggression constantly.
EPT
