EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 973
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2014 05:34 Whitewing wrote: If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough. So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On May 04 2014 05:34 Whitewing wrote: If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough. I think it's important to note that protoss players haven't yet learned to utilize the micro required to beat mines cost-efficiently. Even in top level games, I see protoss players literally a-move a blob of zealots in front of 3 or 4 mines and just get slaughtered. They haven't yet learned to do things that are now commonplace for zerg, such as surrounds and flanks (zealot flanks from a warp prism can be game-winning against a terran running from storms) and trying to get a nice zealot concave vs terran, or staggering the way the zealots run into the battle so the mines detonate on the first few. Zerg didn't do this either, but then after a couple months learned and then began to create the epic battles of micro so evident in games like DRG vs. Innovation. Many are just overrunning the terran player with zealots or just having them all die to mines. If you look at series like MC vs. MMA, MC, who is obviously capable of splitting his zealots if needed to, spends the whole series a-moving them over mines when he has a supply lead. Even in TvZ, a zerg doing that would be unthinkable. Protosses simply need time to develop the micro needed. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 04 2014 05:44 TheDwf wrote: So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmIjdCMOBJ4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwwCkGOJjEk Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran. I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru. Regardless, my initial question hasn't been answered yet: if Terran wins half the time right now, that means winrates are balanced. Aligulac suggests this is the case. If you give terran more options, that's a power swing. What then would you give to protoss to compensate for that new advantage to balance things out? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:05 Whitewing wrote: Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran. I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru. You were saying? | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:05 Whitewing wrote: Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran. I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru. Regardless, my initial question hasn't been answered yet: if Terran wins half the time right now, that means winrates are balanced. Aligulac suggests this is the case. If you give terran more options, that's a power swing. What then would you give to protoss to compensate for that new advantage to balance things out? lol. What a weasle move. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
- You can't play upon the upgrade advantage unless you went 4' EB. Otherwise Forges + chrono allow Protoss to catch up. - You keep saying "if Protoss does this he just outplayed the Terran" without providing any argument. - More Terran options doesn't necessarily mean a better Terran winrate. - Winrates don't matter anyway when you have not a field with players of even or roughly even skill. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:05 Whitewing wrote: Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran. I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru. Regardless, my initial question hasn't been answered yet: if Terran wins half the time right now, that means winrates are balanced. Aligulac suggests this is the case. If you give terran more options, that's a power swing. What then would you give to protoss to compensate for that new advantage to balance things out? Options =/= Strength Strength = Strength If terran bio was good, and terran mech was good, bio doesn't suddenly become stronger Much like Protoss going fast storm is good, and protoss going fast robo is also good. Options =/= Stronger | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:05 Whitewing wrote: Regardless, my initial question hasn't been answered yet: if Terran wins half the time right now, that means winrates are balanced. Aligulac suggests this is the case. If you give terran more options, that's a power swing. What then would you give to protoss to compensate for that new advantage to balance things out? If the last Mine buff vs Shields did the magic to bring TvP to 50/50, then Protoss doesn't need a compensation for the Hellion/Hellbat Xform buff, because more Hellions/Hellbats means less Mines, which should even things out again. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:31 TheDwf wrote: Also: - You can't play upon the upgrade advantage unless you went 4' EB. Otherwise Forges + chrono allow Protoss to catch up. - You keep saying "if Protoss does this he just outplayed the Terran" without providing any argument. - More Terran options doesn't necessarily mean a better Terran winrate. - Winrates don't matter anyway when you have not a field with players of even or roughly even skill. Winrates matter a lot actually. The reason winrates are evening out is because only the top level terrans are left. Maru is about 50/50 with his protoss opponents, and being that Maru is one of the few terrans left, he takes up a large percentage of the terran population. Which tells us it is *possible* to get 50/50 in TvP so long as all terran players play like Maru. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:35 Thieving Magpie wrote: Winrates matter a lot actually. The reason winrates are evening out is because only the top level terrans are left. Maru is about 50/50 with his protoss opponents, and being that Maru is one of the few terrans left, he takes up a large percentage of the terran population. Which tells us it is *possible* to get 50/50 in TvP so long as all terran players play like Maru. Yes, I meant that 50:50 ≠ balance because of that kind of phenomenon. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:40 TheDwf wrote: Yes, I meant that 50:50 ≠ balance because of that kind of phenomenon. Yes, but the resolution to this phenomenon is not by whining about balance. Under representation of a race is far more complex of a matter to resolve. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:50 Thieving Magpie wrote: Yes, but the resolution to this phenomenon is not by whining about balance. Under representation of a race is far more complex of a matter to resolve. ? If you go back and study all the historical scenarios where a race has been underpresented for an extended period of time, there has always been a patch that has either directly or indirectly nerfed the race before it became underrepresented. And after an extended period of time, the only thing that has resulted in the race not being permanently underpresented has been a patch (or an expansion) that buffed the race. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:50 Thieving Magpie wrote: Yes, but the resolution to this phenomenon is not by whining about balance. Under representation of a race is far more complex of a matter to resolve. Sorry, I don't understand what your answer has to do with the previous subject? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:56 Hider wrote: ? If you go back and study all the historical scenarios where a race has been underpresented for an extended period of time, there has always been a patch that has either directly or indirectly nerfed the race before it became underrepresented. And after an extended period of time, the only thing that has resulted in the race not being permanently underpresented has been a patch (or an expansion) that buffed the race. Savior in BW is the penultimate example of how a matchup *can* be figured out despite the totality of the population being unable to do so. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 04 2014 06:56 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, I don't understand what your answer has to do with the previous subject? When a matchup is 50/50 by definition it is balanced. Certain races being under or overrepresented can be fixed by trends as much as it can be fixed with patches. Patches are of course faster and more efficient, but they are not necessarily needed. EDIT: Its a verbage thing, I don't like the idea of just throwing the "imbalance" word when what we really mean is that the matchup is not working as intended. PvZ was pretty even in WoL once people figured it out. But it definitely was NOT working as intended, hence the need for it to be fixed. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. I would suggest that for this reason, command center first is a risky build compared to a reaper expand. You're sacrificing the ability to see what's going on for an early econ advantage, and Zest picked up on that. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard, but rather what can happen if terran decides to gamble. So yeah, if you want to argue that if terran opens command center first and gets denied all scouting constantly with the oracle that protoss can take a super fast 3rd, then I'll agree with that. Perhaps that's why you shouldn't go command center first. On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD. Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you. On May 04 2014 06:33 Thieving Magpie wrote: Options =/= Strength Strength = Strength If terran bio was good, and terran mech was good, bio doesn't suddenly become stronger Much like Protoss going fast storm is good, and protoss going fast robo is also good. Options =/= Stronger Options do equal strength though, just indirectly. Consider: if terran gains new early game options that are viable strategies, then protoss has to be prepared for them or will simply blindly lose games. If they have to prepare, then that means their build has to take those options into account, which reduces their own options. Terran has aggressive options right now, like widow mine drops, hellbat marauder all-ins, cloak banshee openers, etc. It's just that protoss builds currently take these options into account and defend them, so terrans don't really consider them options. If you introduce new options, you take options away from the opponent. That is the same as adding strength. Hypothetically, let's say banshees got a buff of some sort (let's say movement speed so they could outrun stalkers easily). Suddenly cloak banshee openers are more viable and more common. What impact does this have? Every toss build now must include detection, which means robo skipping 2 base stalker blink builds or super fast 3rd builds just cease to exist unless they want to gamble that terran isn't going banshee. This limits protoss to early robo builds, early cannon builds, and early stargate builds. Terran no longer needs to be nearly as concerned about fast twilight builds because the threat of banshees prevents them from being a standard. You'd still see them as gamble builds occasionally, but they aren't usable as a standard (just like widow mine drops aren't usable as a standard). That's just a hypothetical example. Let's say you give terran attack options by nerfing the photon overcharge. Suddenly every protoss has to spend much of the early game being worried about defending everything, which means investments into more sentries and early stalkers, etc. That's a big buff to terran because you're killing protoss build options and limiting their growth rates. Okay, let's say you make it so terran can attack early more regularly, because you decide you don't like protoss being able to play with their current standard builds. That's going to result in a shift in power towards terran, because even if terran doesn't use those timings and plays like they currently do, protoss has to take that potential into account. What do you propose protoss gains in return to balance out the matchup if you make a change of that nature? | ||
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