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Ultra, Broodlord, Voidrays, Tempest, Corruptor, Viking do little less damage but have little more hp.
My intention is that such units are the most boring units of the game due to too much damage if they clash and 200/200 fights are too quick.
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On May 01 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote:I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in). In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure. I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK. my 2 cents  This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats  I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra.
Thanks
Well I haven't seen that many games on new maps with blink builds so You might be right. I was still thinking about PvT in terms of previous season That being said I still believe that T's should have some agressive builds that would allow for more map presence in early game and some damage potential - that's where my 3rd point comes from
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United States7483 Posts
On May 04 2014 02:19 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote:I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in). In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure. I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK. my 2 cents This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra. Thanks Well I haven't seen that many games on new maps with blink builds so You might be right. I was still thinking about PvT in terms of previous season That being said I still believe that T's should have some agressive builds that would allow for more map presence in early game and some damage potential - that's where my 3rd point comes from
They aren't necessary though. Right now, terran midgame is outrageously powerful in PvT. If protoss doesn't do some form of crippling damage to terran early on, it is very hard to take and secure a third base vs. terran. SCV all-ins against colossus builds are coming back into the general trends of play because they usually outright kill the protoss, and properly executed bio/mine play is death to someone who opens templar. Protoss has to take a later than normal third to not die to these kinds of attacks, and doing so is also death because terran gets too far ahead in economy. Rain's comments about terran were a bit over the top but the general idea is correct: it is very hard to play a safe macro game without early aggression against Terran like he prefers to do.
The existence of reapers still prevents nexus first builds from protoss, and various other options force protoss to be more safe than they wish they could. Protoss builds look greedy but they really aren't, and it's still normal for toss to go into the midgame down on supply with a later 3rd. It's not necessary that terran have the ability to commit to an early all-in or heavy attack for terran to win 50/50. If you simply add that feature, balance will swing heavily in terran's favor from where it is now (as of last month, it was 52/48 in Terran's favor according to aligulac).
The nature of starcraft 2 as an assymetrical game is that at various phases in the game, one race is going to have an aggressive timing advantage over the other race in the matchup. In WoL, it was Terran owned the early and mid games, while protoss had the late game. Now Protoss has the early game, terran has the mid game, and protoss has the late game. (The very late game isn't clear).
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On May 04 2014 03:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 02:19 egrimm wrote:On May 01 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote:I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in). In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure. I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK. my 2 cents This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra. Thanks Well I haven't seen that many games on new maps with blink builds so You might be right. I was still thinking about PvT in terms of previous season That being said I still believe that T's should have some agressive builds that would allow for more map presence in early game and some damage potential - that's where my 3rd point comes from They aren't necessary though. Right now, terran midgame is outrageously powerful in PvT. If protoss doesn't do some form of crippling damage to terran early on, it is very hard to take and secure a third base vs. terran. SCV all-ins against colossus builds are coming back into the general trends of play because they usually outright kill the protoss, and properly executed bio/mine play is death to someone who opens templar. Protoss has to take a later than normal third to not die to these kinds of attacks, and doing so is also death because terran gets too far ahead in economy. Rain's comments about terran were a bit over the top but the general idea is correct: it is very hard to play a safe macro game without early aggression against Terran like he prefers to do.
Maybe in your alternative reality, yes. In our world Protoss can take a third even quicker than Terran and defend it. Zest and PartinG had zero troubles taking a third vs MMA.
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On May 03 2014 16:30 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 13:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2014 12:04 usethis2 wrote:
I don't remember the overall win rates, but I remember top zerg players had barely 50%+ win rates v. T when they had much higher win rates against P or in mirror. On the other hand, it was not hard to find terrans with 60%+ win rates against zergs in code S when their mirror or v. P stats were mediocre.
That's where you're wrong actually. MMA, MVP, and few other terrains had 60%-80% vs all races, but the overall win rates of TvZ across all tournaments was 50/50 ZvT was DRG's best matchup, Losira was makin a name for himself for kinetic lair heavy ZvT, both players required ridiculously high APM just to not die in the first few minutes of the game. It was intense all game long, The only problem was the predictable proactivity levels, Terran was always the proactive race in early game, Zerg always the proactive race in the mid game. Any Terran or Zerg who bucked the trend immediately died. There are so many random terrans that killed champion-level zergs so I refuse to believe that revisionism. Just off the top of my head: Z Kyrix (one of my favorite zergs in WOL) Nestea Losira DRG Leenock Life T oGS_Supernova MVPsC stc Yoda Happy Keen Ryung MMA MVP MKP Polt Jjakji aLive asd_fOU Heart Virus Taeja Any other terran from Slayers I am sure some people will argue those are not some random Terrans - I won't argue against inherent subjective stuff but what's indisputable is that the top zergs were never safe against any code S terran and they did take losses while many champion level terrans rarely lost to non-champion level zergs. It was after the queen patch where a better zerg had visibly higher chances against lesser Ts. (I agree there were many patchzergs, however, especially in foreign scenes)
Ok you win. TvZ was imba in favour of T and the Queen patch introduced the golden era of balance in TvZ history. You don't have to put up with our "revisionism" anymore.
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On May 04 2014 03:35 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 16:30 usethis2 wrote:On May 03 2014 13:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2014 12:04 usethis2 wrote:
I don't remember the overall win rates, but I remember top zerg players had barely 50%+ win rates v. T when they had much higher win rates against P or in mirror. On the other hand, it was not hard to find terrans with 60%+ win rates against zergs in code S when their mirror or v. P stats were mediocre.
That's where you're wrong actually. MMA, MVP, and few other terrains had 60%-80% vs all races, but the overall win rates of TvZ across all tournaments was 50/50 ZvT was DRG's best matchup, Losira was makin a name for himself for kinetic lair heavy ZvT, both players required ridiculously high APM just to not die in the first few minutes of the game. It was intense all game long, The only problem was the predictable proactivity levels, Terran was always the proactive race in early game, Zerg always the proactive race in the mid game. Any Terran or Zerg who bucked the trend immediately died. There are so many random terrans that killed champion-level zergs so I refuse to believe that revisionism. Just off the top of my head: Z Kyrix (one of my favorite zergs in WOL) Nestea Losira DRG Leenock Life T oGS_Supernova MVPsC stc Yoda Happy Keen Ryung MMA MVP MKP Polt Jjakji aLive asd_fOU Heart Virus Taeja Any other terran from Slayers I am sure some people will argue those are not some random Terrans - I won't argue against inherent subjective stuff but what's indisputable is that the top zergs were never safe against any code S terran and they did take losses while many champion level terrans rarely lost to non-champion level zergs. It was after the queen patch where a better zerg had visibly higher chances against lesser Ts. (I agree there were many patchzergs, however, especially in foreign scenes) Ok you win. TvZ was imba in favour of T and the Queen patch introduced the golden era of balance in TvZ history. You don't have to put up with our "revisionism" anymore.
Yeah, and good thing those "random Terrans" like Mvp, TaeJa, jjakji, MMA or SuperNova disappeared since then.
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Northern Ireland23814 Posts
It's normal because Toss discovered taking a third at Wings timings wasn't necessary
Their greediness isn't in third timings but in hardcore teching and getting upgrades, establishing that infrastructure and benefitting when the income spike of the 5th and 6 gases kick in.
Protosses were getting fucked before they adjusted to that kind of play. Nexus first doesn't necessarily have to be a stable opener, it should always be a gambit of some kind
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On May 04 2014 03:37 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's normal because Toss discovered taking a third at Wings timings wasn't necessary
Their greediness isn't in third timings but in hardcore teching and getting upgrades, establishing that infrastructure and benefitting when the income spike of the 5th and 6 gases kick in.
Protosses were getting fucked before they adjusted to that kind of play. Nexus first doesn't necessarily have to be a stable opener, it should always be a gambit of some kind
Hilariously enough, I think one of the best 3base builds as popularized by cjherO has lacking gasses 5/6 as a key to the build :D
The problem is that Protoss enters 'midgame' about a minute faster than in WOL, combine this with bigger maps, and the Terran window for aggression (which hasn't been buffed whatsover, the first push usually lacks a good number of mines) has become smaller without getting anything in return (now, midgame Terran is extendedly strong vs templar openers, btw. I really like templar v mine midgames atm!)
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On May 03 2014 16:30 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 13:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2014 12:04 usethis2 wrote:
I don't remember the overall win rates, but I remember top zerg players had barely 50%+ win rates v. T when they had much higher win rates against P or in mirror. On the other hand, it was not hard to find terrans with 60%+ win rates against zergs in code S when their mirror or v. P stats were mediocre.
That's where you're wrong actually. MMA, MVP, and few other terrains had 60%-80% vs all races, but the overall win rates of TvZ across all tournaments was 50/50 ZvT was DRG's best matchup, Losira was makin a name for himself for kinetic lair heavy ZvT, both players required ridiculously high APM just to not die in the first few minutes of the game. It was intense all game long, The only problem was the predictable proactivity levels, Terran was always the proactive race in early game, Zerg always the proactive race in the mid game. Any Terran or Zerg who bucked the trend immediately died. There are so many random terrans that killed champion-level zergs so I refuse to believe that revisionism. Just off the top of my head: Z Kyrix (one of my favorite zergs in WOL) Nestea Losira DRG Leenock Life T oGS_Supernova MVPsC stc Yoda Happy Keen Ryung MMA MVP MKP Polt Jjakji aLive asd_fOU Heart Virus Taeja Any other terran from Slayers I am sure some people will argue those are not some random Terrans - I won't argue against inherent subjective stuff but what's indisputable is that the top zergs were never safe against any code S terran and they did take losses while many champion level terrans rarely lost to non-champion level zergs. It was after the queen patch where a better zerg had visibly higher chances against lesser Ts. (I agree there were many patchzergs, however, especially in foreign scenes)
Are you trolling? Those "random" terrans are some of best players to ever touch the game. They have even managed to remain relevant even when the game was broken in favor of zerg and heavily in favor of protoss.
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On May 04 2014 04:00 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 16:30 usethis2 wrote:On May 03 2014 13:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2014 12:04 usethis2 wrote:
I don't remember the overall win rates, but I remember top zerg players had barely 50%+ win rates v. T when they had much higher win rates against P or in mirror. On the other hand, it was not hard to find terrans with 60%+ win rates against zergs in code S when their mirror or v. P stats were mediocre.
That's where you're wrong actually. MMA, MVP, and few other terrains had 60%-80% vs all races, but the overall win rates of TvZ across all tournaments was 50/50 ZvT was DRG's best matchup, Losira was makin a name for himself for kinetic lair heavy ZvT, both players required ridiculously high APM just to not die in the first few minutes of the game. It was intense all game long, The only problem was the predictable proactivity levels, Terran was always the proactive race in early game, Zerg always the proactive race in the mid game. Any Terran or Zerg who bucked the trend immediately died. There are so many random terrans that killed champion-level zergs so I refuse to believe that revisionism. Just off the top of my head: Z Kyrix (one of my favorite zergs in WOL) Nestea Losira DRG Leenock Life T oGS_Supernova MVPsC stc Yoda Happy Keen Ryung MMA MVP MKP Polt Jjakji aLive asd_fOU Heart Virus Taeja Any other terran from Slayers I am sure some people will argue those are not some random Terrans - I won't argue against inherent subjective stuff but what's indisputable is that the top zergs were never safe against any code S terran and they did take losses while many champion level terrans rarely lost to non-champion level zergs. It was after the queen patch where a better zerg had visibly higher chances against lesser Ts. (I agree there were many patchzergs, however, especially in foreign scenes) Are you trolling? Those "random" terrans are some of best players to ever touch the game. They have even managed to remain relevant even when the game was broken in favor of zerg and heavily in favor of protoss.
Ofc he is trolling, the guy says TvZ was better with the patch queen; you can't not trolll after saying that.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 04 2014 03:32 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 03:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 04 2014 02:19 egrimm wrote:On May 01 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote:I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in). In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure. I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK. my 2 cents This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra. Thanks Well I haven't seen that many games on new maps with blink builds so You might be right. I was still thinking about PvT in terms of previous season That being said I still believe that T's should have some agressive builds that would allow for more map presence in early game and some damage potential - that's where my 3rd point comes from They aren't necessary though. Right now, terran midgame is outrageously powerful in PvT. If protoss doesn't do some form of crippling damage to terran early on, it is very hard to take and secure a third base vs. terran. SCV all-ins against colossus builds are coming back into the general trends of play because they usually outright kill the protoss, and properly executed bio/mine play is death to someone who opens templar. Protoss has to take a later than normal third to not die to these kinds of attacks, and doing so is also death because terran gets too far ahead in economy. Rain's comments about terran were a bit over the top but the general idea is correct: it is very hard to play a safe macro game without early aggression against Terran like he prefers to do. Maybe in your alternative reality, yes. In our world Protoss can take a third even quicker than Terran and defend it. Zest and PartinG had zero troubles taking a third vs MMA.
Zest and Parting are WAY better than MMA is right now.
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On May 04 2014 04:37 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 03:32 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2014 03:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 04 2014 02:19 egrimm wrote:On May 01 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote:I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in). In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure. I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK. my 2 cents This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra. Thanks Well I haven't seen that many games on new maps with blink builds so You might be right. I was still thinking about PvT in terms of previous season That being said I still believe that T's should have some agressive builds that would allow for more map presence in early game and some damage potential - that's where my 3rd point comes from They aren't necessary though. Right now, terran midgame is outrageously powerful in PvT. If protoss doesn't do some form of crippling damage to terran early on, it is very hard to take and secure a third base vs. terran. SCV all-ins against colossus builds are coming back into the general trends of play because they usually outright kill the protoss, and properly executed bio/mine play is death to someone who opens templar. Protoss has to take a later than normal third to not die to these kinds of attacks, and doing so is also death because terran gets too far ahead in economy. Rain's comments about terran were a bit over the top but the general idea is correct: it is very hard to play a safe macro game without early aggression against Terran like he prefers to do. Maybe in your alternative reality, yes. In our world Protoss can take a third even quicker than Terran and defend it. Zest and PartinG had zero troubles taking a third vs MMA. Zest and Parting are WAY better than MMA is right now.
How about no ?
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United States7483 Posts
On May 04 2014 04:41 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 04:37 Whitewing wrote:On May 04 2014 03:32 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2014 03:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 04 2014 02:19 egrimm wrote:On May 01 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote:I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in). In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure. I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK. my 2 cents This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra. Thanks Well I haven't seen that many games on new maps with blink builds so You might be right. I was still thinking about PvT in terms of previous season That being said I still believe that T's should have some agressive builds that would allow for more map presence in early game and some damage potential - that's where my 3rd point comes from They aren't necessary though. Right now, terran midgame is outrageously powerful in PvT. If protoss doesn't do some form of crippling damage to terran early on, it is very hard to take and secure a third base vs. terran. SCV all-ins against colossus builds are coming back into the general trends of play because they usually outright kill the protoss, and properly executed bio/mine play is death to someone who opens templar. Protoss has to take a later than normal third to not die to these kinds of attacks, and doing so is also death because terran gets too far ahead in economy. Rain's comments about terran were a bit over the top but the general idea is correct: it is very hard to play a safe macro game without early aggression against Terran like he prefers to do. Maybe in your alternative reality, yes. In our world Protoss can take a third even quicker than Terran and defend it. Zest and PartinG had zero troubles taking a third vs MMA. Zest and Parting are WAY better than MMA is right now. How about no ?
You can delude yourself about that all you like. If you think MMA is better or equal to literally every single protoss player out there, you're off your rocker.
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On May 04 2014 04:37 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 03:32 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2014 03:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 04 2014 02:19 egrimm wrote:On May 01 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote:I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in). In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure. I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK. my 2 cents This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra. Thanks Well I haven't seen that many games on new maps with blink builds so You might be right. I was still thinking about PvT in terms of previous season That being said I still believe that T's should have some agressive builds that would allow for more map presence in early game and some damage potential - that's where my 3rd point comes from They aren't necessary though. Right now, terran midgame is outrageously powerful in PvT. If protoss doesn't do some form of crippling damage to terran early on, it is very hard to take and secure a third base vs. terran. SCV all-ins against colossus builds are coming back into the general trends of play because they usually outright kill the protoss, and properly executed bio/mine play is death to someone who opens templar. Protoss has to take a later than normal third to not die to these kinds of attacks, and doing so is also death because terran gets too far ahead in economy. Rain's comments about terran were a bit over the top but the general idea is correct: it is very hard to play a safe macro game without early aggression against Terran like he prefers to do. Maybe in your alternative reality, yes. In our world Protoss can take a third even quicker than Terran and defend it. Zest and PartinG had zero troubles taking a third vs MMA. Zest and Parting are WAY better than MMA is right now.
They're better but not to the point MMA is outclassed and they can do anything because of the skill gap, and the games were testament to that. At any rate MMA is skilled enough to refute something too ambitious with his multitasking. Protoss can take their third in complete comfort as long as they're not behind because Photon Overcharge + warp-ins guarantee a lot of defence in the two other bases; not to mention you cannot drop at all if he has Blink (which is standard in any Colo build).
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On May 04 2014 04:47 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 04:41 Faust852 wrote:On May 04 2014 04:37 Whitewing wrote:On May 04 2014 03:32 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2014 03:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 04 2014 02:19 egrimm wrote:On May 01 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 30 2014 18:33 egrimm wrote:I feel like T now has too much problems in early game which leads T to either play to safe to not die to an all-in OR super greedy where they have quite equal chance of winning but they risk simply dying from any form of aggresion even if scouted (3CC vs roach all-in/blink all-in). In TvP right now, after the mine buff, balance looks better. Aggressive P builds, aside of blink all-in, are rather holdable. Oracle/dt's play can be scouted and if reacted properly held (I don't like the oracle current implementation but that's different story) also gateway all-ins are rather easy to stop. However with that being said I feel that blink builds are still somehow too strong. I like that they allow P for flexible play but they also too often just outright kill T who not necessarily went for really greedy build. I would like to see following interaction between builds: greedy T with fast ebay +1 is safe vs. dt's oracle, but dies to 1 base blink. 2 base gateway all-ins and 2 base blink all-ins (6/7g) can deal big damage, sometimes kill T if mismicro occurs but 2 base blink pressure (3g into more gates or 3rd) are normally holdable and depending on micro both races can be ahead/behind after pressure. I would suggest one or combination of following changes to implement: 1. Time Warp - TW adds great utility to blink builds. A lot of time blink all-ins are decided during first or second engagement. Usually P blinks where terran army is not and cast TW on ramp or between stalkers and T's army and then can trade even more efficiently against marines and scvs often dealing crippling damage from where snowball effect starts. On the other hand TW is not an ability as crucial in P play as FF or Storm in other parts of the game. I believe that it might be good to add an upgrade for MsC so TW wouldn't be available when blink all-ining but only in later stages of the game. Also TW could be just moved to Mothership and maybe slightly buffed then (more AoE and energy cost rise) or simply removed. 2. Stim research time reduction OR blink time reserach increase - it would shorten the window where P has blink and T is waiting for stim. It may affect ZvT or ZvP slightly. 3. Consussive Shells upg removal - upg was rightfully added in WoL because of 2rax when P had a lot of problems in early game vs T. However now it's not the case so maybe change could be reverted and open a bit of poosibilites for T in early game ? 4. Mine production time reduction (5 sec for example) - It would be easier to squeeze mines for defense vs blink. Controversial, might imbalance ZvT however right now MMMM is a bit UP vs Z so it may turn OK. my 2 cents This is a well written post with a lot of thought put into it! Congrats I think your views on Blink are a bit dated though.. maps have been designed on purpose to make Blink really bad. The idea of having Time warp as a cheap 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core is not bad but I don't think it's needed anymore given the maps. It IS useful early game in PvZ (early Zealot pushes to punish greedy play) and it's actually REALLY helpful in holding off SCV allins vs. Colossus openings, so I wouldn't want to remove it or move it to the Mothership (which nobody builds anyway because it's too slow and expensive) and costs 6 supply extra. Thanks Well I haven't seen that many games on new maps with blink builds so You might be right. I was still thinking about PvT in terms of previous season That being said I still believe that T's should have some agressive builds that would allow for more map presence in early game and some damage potential - that's where my 3rd point comes from They aren't necessary though. Right now, terran midgame is outrageously powerful in PvT. If protoss doesn't do some form of crippling damage to terran early on, it is very hard to take and secure a third base vs. terran. SCV all-ins against colossus builds are coming back into the general trends of play because they usually outright kill the protoss, and properly executed bio/mine play is death to someone who opens templar. Protoss has to take a later than normal third to not die to these kinds of attacks, and doing so is also death because terran gets too far ahead in economy. Rain's comments about terran were a bit over the top but the general idea is correct: it is very hard to play a safe macro game without early aggression against Terran like he prefers to do. Maybe in your alternative reality, yes. In our world Protoss can take a third even quicker than Terran and defend it. Zest and PartinG had zero troubles taking a third vs MMA. Zest and Parting are WAY better than MMA is right now. How about no ? You can delude yourself about that all you like. If you think MMA is better or equal to literally every single protoss player out there, you're off your rocker.
Did you watch MMA vs Zest? 2-1 for Zest, really close games.
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Northern Ireland23814 Posts
MMA even at his peak wasn't the best vP player. I'd still have those two as currently stronger but it does get annoying when people make out MMA is some kind of scrub who can't compete at that level
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United States7483 Posts
On May 04 2014 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
MMA even at his peak wasn't the best vP player. I'd still have those two as currently stronger but it does get annoying when people make out MMA is some kind of scrub who can't compete at that level
It's not a question of whether he is or isn't able to compete at that level. You can often get away with a decision against a lesser player that you couldn't get away with vs. a better player. The idea is that bio/mine is very hard to fight without colossus, and the scv all-ins which are coming back into the meta often outright kill protoss who go for colossus. Terran has some incredibly strong timings in the midgame which make holding a third very difficult. It might take some time before terran punishes it if they take it early, but it doesn't matter because properly controlled bio/mine is extremely difficult to play against without colossus, and you can't go early third into colossus vs. terran without being picked apart by drops or dying to an scv all-in. Parting and Zest outplayed MMA, that's why they got away with it.
Sometimes in these discussions it feels like terran players won't be satisfied until they beat protoss 90-100% of the time.
If the current winrates are 50/50 (and the best data we have is aligulac which says 52/48 in favor of terran, so close enough), then you provide more options for terran, that will break the matchup balance. What would you like to give protoss to compensate for the additional options terran gains?
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Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too.
Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote:
Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too.
Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
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On May 04 2014 05:28 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote:
Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too.
Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
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EPT
