- You can't play upon the upgrade advantage unless you went 4' EB. Otherwise Forges + chrono allow Protoss to catch up. - You keep saying "if Protoss does this he just outplayed the Terran" without providing any argument. - More Terran options doesn't necessarily mean a better Terran winrate. - Winrates don't matter anyway when you have not a field with players of even or roughly even skill.
Winrates matter a lot actually.
The reason winrates are evening out is because only the top level terrans are left. Maru is about 50/50 with his protoss opponents, and being that Maru is one of the few terrans left, he takes up a large percentage of the terran population. Which tells us it is *possible* to get 50/50 in TvP so long as all terran players play like Maru.
Yes, I meant that 50:50 ≠ balance because of that kind of phenomenon.
Yes, but the resolution to this phenomenon is not by whining about balance. Under representation of a race is far more complex of a matter to resolve.
Sorry, I don't understand what your answer has to do with the previous subject?
When a matchup is 50/50 by definition it is balanced. Certain races being under or overrepresented can be fixed by trends as much as it can be fixed with patches. Patches are of course faster and more efficient, but they are not necessarily needed.
EDIT:
Its a verbage thing, I don't like the idea of just throwing the "imbalance" word when what we really mean is that the matchup is not working as intended.
PvZ was pretty even in WoL once people figured it out. But it definitely was NOT working as intended, hence the need for it to be fixed.
I dont think there is a huge consens on the definition of balance. Roughly 50/50 winrates are obvoiously a part of it, but there have to be certain preconditions for that to be worthwhile as well. As it's being said, the ladder and ladderlike nature of SC2 tournaments simply substitutes a part of winrate inequality with player dropout. With more longterm roundrobin league systems we'd probably get different pictures of winrates.
Regardless of whether a patch is necessary in the longrun, if there is no convincing evidence that there is going to be a trendturnaround rather sooner than later, than patching is right. Since you can always patch again or take away a former change. At least that's my personal take on it. You can also try to balance with maps, but that's really just another form of patching. And may I say, one of the more bruteforce ones if you try to tackle a strategy by making it unviable by mapdesign, instead of just tuning it down slightly. Ortrying ridiculous stuff like balancing out certain lategame strategies by making it very likely that the other race can just end the game first through maps.
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
You were saying?
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
Because the lack of colossus meant that he had more gas for sentries, so he could just forcefield the army off to buy time. You don't go for scv pulls unless they go for colossus specifically for that reason. Typically with colossus builds, you only get 1-2 sentries maximum because you need the rest of your gas for upgrades, stalkers, robo bay, thermal lance, colossus, etc. He wasn't hitting a timing where essential tech was just coming online like he would against a colossus build where only the 2nd or 3rd is popping, zest didn't have templar tech about to finish or something he'd invested in. He was just making gateway units. The buffed mines would have torn Zest to shreds in that game, he had literally nothing that could deal with them.
Maru guessed without knowing that Protoss was going to be teching at that time, and went for it. He was wrong, so his all-in failed. In that game, he gambled on various decisions, and wound up playing blind, and then suffered for it. That's not an indicator of balance, that's an indicator of Zest's brilliance and Maru's mistakes.
I also bet that exact problem never happens to Maru again.
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
To be fair, aren't both these games before the recent WM buff?
The Maru vs Zest game might be post patch, though. I think.
The Maru vs. Zest game is after the patch but the widow mine pushes hadn't become super common or popular yet, and terrans hadn't had a ton of time to practice it.
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
Because the lack of colossus meant that he had more gas for sentries, so he could just forcefield the army off to buy time. You don't go for scv pulls unless they go for colossus specifically for that reason. Typically with colossus builds, you only get 1-2 sentries maximum because you need the rest of your gas for upgrades, stalkers, robo bay, thermal lance, colossus, etc. He wasn't hitting a timing where essential tech was just coming online like he would against a colossus build where only the 2nd or 3rd is popping, zest didn't have templar tech about to finish or something he'd invested in. He was just making gateway units. The buffed mines would have torn Zest to shreds in that game, he had literally nothing that could deal with them.
Maru guessed without knowing that Protoss was going to be teching at that time, and went for it. He was wrong, so his all-in failed. In that game, he gambled on various decisions, and wound up playing blind, and then suffered for it. That's not an indicator of balance, that's an indicator of Zest's brilliance and Maru's mistakes.
I also bet that exact problem never happens to Maru again.
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
Because the lack of colossus meant that he had more gas for sentries, so he could just forcefield the army off to buy time. You don't go for scv pulls unless they go for colossus specifically for that reason. Typically with colossus builds, you only get 1-2 sentries maximum because you need the rest of your gas for upgrades, stalkers, robo bay, thermal lance, colossus, etc. He wasn't hitting a timing where essential tech was just coming online like he would against a colossus build where only the 2nd or 3rd is popping, zest didn't have templar tech about to finish or something he'd invested in. He was just making gateway units. The buffed mines would have torn Zest to shreds in that game, he had literally nothing that could deal with them.
Zest held that no problem, with 5 stalkers (625/250) not even in the fight, despite Maru having his whole army and stim + combat shields + medivac vs pure gateway units. Since Zest was playing defensively with a stalker heavy composition I dont think widow mines would have been a problem to deal with at all, he didn't need to pursue Maru's army or go into melee range and if the widow mines tried to run in where they would be a threat he could have targetted them down. Without the SCV's to buffer damage Maru's army is even less threatening. Any time Maru is delayed further gives Zest time to add tech (Zest was already even in upgrades after that engagement btw).
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
Because the lack of colossus meant that he had more gas for sentries, so he could just forcefield the army off to buy time. You don't go for scv pulls unless they go for colossus specifically for that reason. Typically with colossus builds, you only get 1-2 sentries maximum because you need the rest of your gas for upgrades, stalkers, robo bay, thermal lance, colossus, etc. He wasn't hitting a timing where essential tech was just coming online like he would against a colossus build where only the 2nd or 3rd is popping, zest didn't have templar tech about to finish or something he'd invested in. He was just making gateway units. The buffed mines would have torn Zest to shreds in that game, he had literally nothing that could deal with them.
Zest held that no problem, with 5 stalkers (625/250) not even in the fight, despite Maru having his whole army and stim + combat shields + medivac vs pure gateway units. Since Zest was playing defensively with a stalker heavy composition I dont think widow mines would have been a problem to deal with at all, he didn't need to pursue Maru's army or go into melee range and if the widow mines tried to run in where they would be a threat he could have targetted them down. Without the SCV's to buffer damage Maru's army is even less threatening. Any time Maru is delayed further gives Zest time to add tech (Zest was already even in upgrades after that engagement btw).
Maru shouldn't have pulled the scvs in the first place, and he didn't need to all-in immediately. Zest had no tech about to finish that was important, Maru didn't have a timing. Instead all he needed to do was trade efficiently and pick away at Zest while he got his own third. Mines are great for that: they make zealots invalid, zest didn't have a robo, he didn't have a templar archives, he literally only had stalker/zealot. If you're trying to suggest that zealot/stalker/sentry is going to be straight up able to fight bio head on over a period of time, I don't know what to tell you. Maru lost because he bashed his head against it and just shoved everything right in instead of trying to kite and trade. The previous discussion was about punishing a protoss who goes fast 3rd into tech: zest didn't tech, maru presumed without scouting that he would tech, and pulled his scvs.
Zest didn't even have his templar archives started when the push hit, let alone finished. You don't need to all-in the protoss there. And yeah, even in upgrades because he completely skipped tech, which means maru had the tech advantage, but he threw that away by just bashing his head against the forcefields and taking stalker shots to the face. All he had to do was wait for another couple of production rounds while trading and he would have been, at worst, even.
c'mon dude, Maru did the strongest push possible against no AoE and still lost. Maru, the best terran in the world. If that's not enough to proove you that a fast 3rd nexus is a viable opening, I don't know what you need. Stop being such a kid and denying you were wrong when we are so many to tell you that you are, with a shit tons of evidences.
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. I would suggest that for this reason, command center first is a risky build compared to a reaper expand. You're sacrificing the ability to see what's going on for an early econ advantage, and Zest picked up on that. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard, but rather what can happen if terran decides to gamble.
So yeah, if you want to argue that if terran opens command center first and gets denied all scouting constantly with the oracle that protoss can take a super fast 3rd, then I'll agree with that. Perhaps that's why you shouldn't go command center first.
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Regardless, my initial question hasn't been answered yet: if Terran wins half the time right now, that means winrates are balanced. Aligulac suggests this is the case. If you give terran more options, that's a power swing. What then would you give to protoss to compensate for that new advantage to balance things out?
Options =/= Strength
Strength = Strength
If terran bio was good, and terran mech was good, bio doesn't suddenly become stronger
Much like Protoss going fast storm is good, and protoss going fast robo is also good.
Options =/= Stronger
Options do equal strength though, just indirectly. Consider: if terran gains new early game options that are viable strategies, then protoss has to be prepared for them or will simply blindly lose games. If they have to prepare, then that means their build has to take those options into account, which reduces their own options. Terran has aggressive options right now, like widow mine drops, hellbat marauder all-ins, cloak banshee openers, etc. It's just that protoss builds currently take these options into account and defend them, so terrans don't really consider them options. If you introduce new options, you take options away from the opponent. That is the same as adding strength. Hypothetically, let's say banshees got a buff of some sort (let's say movement speed so they could outrun stalkers easily). Suddenly cloak banshee openers are more viable and more common. What impact does this have? Every toss build now must include detection, which means robo skipping 2 base stalker blink builds or super fast 3rd builds just cease to exist unless they want to gamble that terran isn't going banshee. This limits protoss to early robo builds, early cannon builds, and early stargate builds. Terran no longer needs to be nearly as concerned about fast twilight builds because the threat of banshees prevents them from being a standard. You'd still see them as gamble builds occasionally, but they aren't usable as a standard (just like widow mine drops aren't usable as a standard).
That's just a hypothetical example. Let's say you give terran attack options by nerfing the photon overcharge. Suddenly every protoss has to spend much of the early game being worried about defending everything, which means investments into more sentries and early stalkers, etc. That's a big buff to terran because you're killing protoss build options and limiting their growth rates.
Okay, let's say you make it so terran can attack early more regularly, because you decide you don't like protoss being able to play with their current standard builds. That's going to result in a shift in power towards terran, because even if terran doesn't use those timings and plays like they currently do, protoss has to take that potential into account. What do you propose protoss gains in return to balance out the matchup if you make a change of that nature?
You don't seem to understand what the word "Options" means.
Nerfin Photon Overcharge is not giving options, it is giving a Terran attack more strength. Giving Banshees more speed is buffing a unit so that an attack is stronger.
Changing the reaper's stats, movement speed, and tech requirements *changed its role* from early harass that could scout to pure scout. Its damage, was weakened. Its top end speed, was weakened. The unit as a whole was nerfed, its tech availability sped up, and its role changed into something different than what it used to be.
Making timing attacks that already occur stronger is, by definition, stronger.
Giving a terran options does not weaken or buff anything. Right now the terran early game is diverse--but the responses to it is linear. Terran midgame and lategame is linear--it does not matter how Terran opens they ALWAYS use the same midgame and lategame. When people ask for Terran options all they ask for is having variant options during the midgame and lategame. You seem to be scared of new timing attacks as if that is the only thing people are asking for; that is ridiculous.
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
Because the lack of colossus meant that he had more gas for sentries, so he could just forcefield the army off to buy time. You don't go for scv pulls unless they go for colossus specifically for that reason. Typically with colossus builds, you only get 1-2 sentries maximum because you need the rest of your gas for upgrades, stalkers, robo bay, thermal lance, colossus, etc. He wasn't hitting a timing where essential tech was just coming online like he would against a colossus build where only the 2nd or 3rd is popping, zest didn't have templar tech about to finish or something he'd invested in. He was just making gateway units. The buffed mines would have torn Zest to shreds in that game, he had literally nothing that could deal with them.
Zest held that no problem, with 5 stalkers (625/250) not even in the fight, despite Maru having his whole army and stim + combat shields + medivac vs pure gateway units. Since Zest was playing defensively with a stalker heavy composition I dont think widow mines would have been a problem to deal with at all, he didn't need to pursue Maru's army or go into melee range and if the widow mines tried to run in where they would be a threat he could have targetted them down. Without the SCV's to buffer damage Maru's army is even less threatening. Any time Maru is delayed further gives Zest time to add tech (Zest was already even in upgrades after that engagement btw).
Maru shouldn't have pulled the scvs in the first place, and he didn't need to all-in immediately. Zest had no tech about to finish that was important, Maru didn't have a timing. Instead all he needed to do was trade efficiently and pick away at Zest while he got his own third. Mines are great for that: they make zealots invalid, zest didn't have a robo, he didn't have a templar archives, he literally only had stalker/zealot. If you're trying to suggest that zealot/stalker/sentry is going to be straight up able to fight bio head on over a period of time, I don't know what to tell you. Maru lost because he bashed his head against it and just shoved everything right in instead of trying to kite and trade. The previous discussion was about punishing a protoss who goes fast 3rd into tech: zest didn't tech, maru presumed without scouting that he would tech, and pulled his scvs.
Zest didn't even have his templar archives started when the push hit, let alone finished. You don't need to all-in the protoss there. And yeah, even in upgrades because he completely skipped tech, which means maru had the tech advantage, but he threw that away by just bashing his head against the forcefields and taking stalker shots to the face. All he had to do was wait for another couple of production rounds while trading and he would have been, at worst, even.
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
Because the lack of colossus meant that he had more gas for sentries, so he could just forcefield the army off to buy time. You don't go for scv pulls unless they go for colossus specifically for that reason. Typically with colossus builds, you only get 1-2 sentries maximum because you need the rest of your gas for upgrades, stalkers, robo bay, thermal lance, colossus, etc. He wasn't hitting a timing where essential tech was just coming online like he would against a colossus build where only the 2nd or 3rd is popping, zest didn't have templar tech about to finish or something he'd invested in. He was just making gateway units. The buffed mines would have torn Zest to shreds in that game, he had literally nothing that could deal with them.
Zest held that no problem, with 5 stalkers (625/250) not even in the fight, despite Maru having his whole army and stim + combat shields + medivac vs pure gateway units. Since Zest was playing defensively with a stalker heavy composition I dont think widow mines would have been a problem to deal with at all, he didn't need to pursue Maru's army or go into melee range and if the widow mines tried to run in where they would be a threat he could have targetted them down. Without the SCV's to buffer damage Maru's army is even less threatening. Any time Maru is delayed further gives Zest time to add tech (Zest was already even in upgrades after that engagement btw).
Maru shouldn't have pulled the scvs in the first place, and he didn't need to all-in immediately. Zest had no tech about to finish that was important, Maru didn't have a timing. Instead all he needed to do was trade efficiently and pick away at Zest while he got his own third. Mines are great for that: they make zealots invalid, zest didn't have a robo, he didn't have a templar archives, he literally only had stalker/zealot. If you're trying to suggest that zealot/stalker/sentry is going to be straight up able to fight bio head on over a period of time, I don't know what to tell you. Maru lost because he bashed his head against it and just shoved everything right in instead of trying to kite and trade. The previous discussion was about punishing a protoss who goes fast 3rd into tech: zest didn't tech, maru presumed without scouting that he would tech, and pulled his scvs.
Zest didn't even have his templar archives started when the push hit, let alone finished. You don't need to all-in the protoss there. And yeah, even in upgrades because he completely skipped tech, which means maru had the tech advantage, but he threw that away by just bashing his head against the forcefields and taking stalker shots to the face. All he had to do was wait for another couple of production rounds while trading and he would have been, at worst, even.
What tech advantage?
Medivacs, stim, combat shields, etc. vs no splash. Medivacs do count as tech, believe it or not.
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. I would suggest that for this reason, command center first is a risky build compared to a reaper expand. You're sacrificing the ability to see what's going on for an early econ advantage, and Zest picked up on that. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard, but rather what can happen if terran decides to gamble.
So yeah, if you want to argue that if terran opens command center first and gets denied all scouting constantly with the oracle that protoss can take a super fast 3rd, then I'll agree with that. Perhaps that's why you shouldn't go command center first.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
On May 04 2014 06:33 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On May 04 2014 06:05 Whitewing wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:44 TheDwf wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:34 Whitewing wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:30 TheDwf wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:28 Whitewing wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Regardless, my initial question hasn't been answered yet: if Terran wins half the time right now, that means winrates are balanced. Aligulac suggests this is the case. If you give terran more options, that's a power swing. What then would you give to protoss to compensate for that new advantage to balance things out?
Options =/= Strength
Strength = Strength
If terran bio was good, and terran mech was good, bio doesn't suddenly become stronger
Much like Protoss going fast storm is good, and protoss going fast robo is also good.
Options =/= Stronger
Options do equal strength though, just indirectly. Consider: if terran gains new early game options that are viable strategies, then protoss has to be prepared for them or will simply blindly lose games. If they have to prepare, then that means their build has to take those options into account, which reduces their own options. Terran has aggressive options right now, like widow mine drops, hellbat marauder all-ins, cloak banshee openers, etc. It's just that protoss builds currently take these options into account and defend them, so terrans don't really consider them options. If you introduce new options, you take options away from the opponent. That is the same as adding strength. Hypothetically, let's say banshees got a buff of some sort (let's say movement speed so they could outrun stalkers easily). Suddenly cloak banshee openers are more viable and more common. What impact does this have? Every toss build now must include detection, which means robo skipping 2 base stalker blink builds or super fast 3rd builds just cease to exist unless they want to gamble that terran isn't going banshee. This limits protoss to early robo builds, early cannon builds, and early stargate builds. Terran no longer needs to be nearly as concerned about fast twilight builds because the threat of banshees prevents them from being a standard. You'd still see them as gamble builds occasionally, but they aren't usable as a standard (just like widow mine drops aren't usable as a standard).
That's just a hypothetical example. Let's say you give terran attack options by nerfing the photon overcharge. Suddenly every protoss has to spend much of the early game being worried about defending everything, which means investments into more sentries and early stalkers, etc. That's a big buff to terran because you're killing protoss build options and limiting their growth rates.
Okay, let's say you make it so terran can attack early more regularly, because you decide you don't like protoss being able to play with their current standard builds. That's going to result in a shift in power towards terran, because even if terran doesn't use those timings and plays like they currently do, protoss has to take that potential into account. What do you propose protoss gains in return to balance out the matchup if you make a change of that nature?
You don't seem to understand what the word "Options" means.
Nerfin Photon Overcharge is not giving options, it is giving a Terran attack more strength. Giving Banshees more speed is buffing a unit so that an attack is stronger.
Changing the reaper's stats, movement speed, and tech requirements *changed its role* from early harass that could scout to pure scout. Its damage, was weakened. Its top end speed, was weakened. The unit as a whole was nerfed, its tech availability sped up, and its role changed into something different than what it used to be.
Making timing attacks that already occur stronger is, by definition, stronger.
Giving a terran options does not weaken or buff anything. Right now the terran early game is diverse--but the responses to it is linear. Terran midgame and lategame is linear--it does not matter how Terran opens they ALWAYS use the same midgame and lategame. When people ask for Terran options all they ask for is having variant options during the midgame and lategame. You seem to be scared of new timing attacks as if that is the only thing people are asking for; that is ridiculous.
Terran has options, they're just weaker than people want them to be. You can open cloak banshee, it just gets shut down if toss has a robo or a stargate, so people choose not to. You can open widow mine drops, but it gets shut down by a forge and cannons. Hellion rushes are an option, but protoss can defend those reasonably easily. Thus, they aren't really considered 'options'. People aren't asking for more midgame stuff, they want early game attack options. How do you give more options without making something stronger? If it isn't at least as strong as things done at the exact same time, it isn't an option that's going to be used at all, and if it doesn't have a different response than normal toss play, it might as well not be there. If it does have a different response, then toss builds are affected and that's a power boost to terran.
- You can't play upon the upgrade advantage unless you went 4' EB. Otherwise Forges + chrono allow Protoss to catch up. - You keep saying "if Protoss does this he just outplayed the Terran" without providing any argument. - More Terran options doesn't necessarily mean a better Terran winrate. - Winrates don't matter anyway when you have not a field with players of even or roughly even skill.
Winrates matter a lot actually.
The reason winrates are evening out is because only the top level terrans are left. Maru is about 50/50 with his protoss opponents, and being that Maru is one of the few terrans left, he takes up a large percentage of the terran population. Which tells us it is *possible* to get 50/50 in TvP so long as all terran players play like Maru.
Yes, I meant that 50:50 ≠ balance because of that kind of phenomenon.
Yes, but the resolution to this phenomenon is not by whining about balance. Under representation of a race is far more complex of a matter to resolve.
Sorry, I don't understand what your answer has to do with the previous subject?
When a matchup is 50/50 by definition it is balanced.
No: if AvB is 50:50 but the statistics involve top10 players from the race A against top50 players of the race B, this is a sign of imbalance.
On May 04 2014 05:44 TheDwf wrote: [quote] So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
Because the lack of colossus meant that he had more gas for sentries, so he could just forcefield the army off to buy time. You don't go for scv pulls unless they go for colossus specifically for that reason. Typically with colossus builds, you only get 1-2 sentries maximum because you need the rest of your gas for upgrades, stalkers, robo bay, thermal lance, colossus, etc. He wasn't hitting a timing where essential tech was just coming online like he would against a colossus build where only the 2nd or 3rd is popping, zest didn't have templar tech about to finish or something he'd invested in. He was just making gateway units. The buffed mines would have torn Zest to shreds in that game, he had literally nothing that could deal with them.
Zest held that no problem, with 5 stalkers (625/250) not even in the fight, despite Maru having his whole army and stim + combat shields + medivac vs pure gateway units. Since Zest was playing defensively with a stalker heavy composition I dont think widow mines would have been a problem to deal with at all, he didn't need to pursue Maru's army or go into melee range and if the widow mines tried to run in where they would be a threat he could have targetted them down. Without the SCV's to buffer damage Maru's army is even less threatening. Any time Maru is delayed further gives Zest time to add tech (Zest was already even in upgrades after that engagement btw).
Maru shouldn't have pulled the scvs in the first place, and he didn't need to all-in immediately. Zest had no tech about to finish that was important, Maru didn't have a timing. Instead all he needed to do was trade efficiently and pick away at Zest while he got his own third. Mines are great for that: they make zealots invalid, zest didn't have a robo, he didn't have a templar archives, he literally only had stalker/zealot. If you're trying to suggest that zealot/stalker/sentry is going to be straight up able to fight bio head on over a period of time, I don't know what to tell you. Maru lost because he bashed his head against it and just shoved everything right in instead of trying to kite and trade. The previous discussion was about punishing a protoss who goes fast 3rd into tech: zest didn't tech, maru presumed without scouting that he would tech, and pulled his scvs.
Zest didn't even have his templar archives started when the push hit, let alone finished. You don't need to all-in the protoss there. And yeah, even in upgrades because he completely skipped tech, which means maru had the tech advantage, but he threw that away by just bashing his head against the forcefields and taking stalker shots to the face. All he had to do was wait for another couple of production rounds while trading and he would have been, at worst, even.
What tech advantage?
Medivacs, stim, combat shields, etc. vs no splash. Medivacs do count as tech, believe it or not.
And you're saying that the right decision when you have a tech advantage is to sit back, not knowing for sure when Protoss will finish up aoe tech?
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. I would suggest that for this reason, command center first is a risky build compared to a reaper expand. You're sacrificing the ability to see what's going on for an early econ advantage, and Zest picked up on that. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard, but rather what can happen if terran decides to gamble.
So yeah, if you want to argue that if terran opens command center first and gets denied all scouting constantly with the oracle that protoss can take a super fast 3rd, then I'll agree with that. Perhaps that's why you shouldn't go command center first.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
On May 04 2014 06:33 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On May 04 2014 06:05 Whitewing wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:44 TheDwf wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:34 Whitewing wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:30 TheDwf wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:28 Whitewing wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:20 Faust852 wrote: Bling beat Happy by taking 2 times a 3rd at 6min with only a stalker and an oracle (+msc). I guess Bling is WAY better than Happy and outplayed him too. Taking a Fast third is totally doable in TvP on certain maps, that's all.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Regardless, my initial question hasn't been answered yet: if Terran wins half the time right now, that means winrates are balanced. Aligulac suggests this is the case. If you give terran more options, that's a power swing. What then would you give to protoss to compensate for that new advantage to balance things out?
Options =/= Strength
Strength = Strength
If terran bio was good, and terran mech was good, bio doesn't suddenly become stronger
Much like Protoss going fast storm is good, and protoss going fast robo is also good.
Options =/= Stronger
Options do equal strength though, just indirectly. Consider: if terran gains new early game options that are viable strategies, then protoss has to be prepared for them or will simply blindly lose games. If they have to prepare, then that means their build has to take those options into account, which reduces their own options. Terran has aggressive options right now, like widow mine drops, hellbat marauder all-ins, cloak banshee openers, etc. It's just that protoss builds currently take these options into account and defend them, so terrans don't really consider them options. If you introduce new options, you take options away from the opponent. That is the same as adding strength. Hypothetically, let's say banshees got a buff of some sort (let's say movement speed so they could outrun stalkers easily). Suddenly cloak banshee openers are more viable and more common. What impact does this have? Every toss build now must include detection, which means robo skipping 2 base stalker blink builds or super fast 3rd builds just cease to exist unless they want to gamble that terran isn't going banshee. This limits protoss to early robo builds, early cannon builds, and early stargate builds. Terran no longer needs to be nearly as concerned about fast twilight builds because the threat of banshees prevents them from being a standard. You'd still see them as gamble builds occasionally, but they aren't usable as a standard (just like widow mine drops aren't usable as a standard).
That's just a hypothetical example. Let's say you give terran attack options by nerfing the photon overcharge. Suddenly every protoss has to spend much of the early game being worried about defending everything, which means investments into more sentries and early stalkers, etc. That's a big buff to terran because you're killing protoss build options and limiting their growth rates.
Okay, let's say you make it so terran can attack early more regularly, because you decide you don't like protoss being able to play with their current standard builds. That's going to result in a shift in power towards terran, because even if terran doesn't use those timings and plays like they currently do, protoss has to take that potential into account. What do you propose protoss gains in return to balance out the matchup if you make a change of that nature?
You don't seem to understand what the word "Options" means.
Nerfin Photon Overcharge is not giving options, it is giving a Terran attack more strength. Giving Banshees more speed is buffing a unit so that an attack is stronger.
Changing the reaper's stats, movement speed, and tech requirements *changed its role* from early harass that could scout to pure scout. Its damage, was weakened. Its top end speed, was weakened. The unit as a whole was nerfed, its tech availability sped up, and its role changed into something different than what it used to be.
Making timing attacks that already occur stronger is, by definition, stronger.
Giving a terran options does not weaken or buff anything. Right now the terran early game is diverse--but the responses to it is linear. Terran midgame and lategame is linear--it does not matter how Terran opens they ALWAYS use the same midgame and lategame. When people ask for Terran options all they ask for is having variant options during the midgame and lategame. You seem to be scared of new timing attacks as if that is the only thing people are asking for; that is ridiculous.
Terran has options, they're just weaker than people want them to be. You can open cloak banshee, it just gets shut down if toss has a robo or a stargate, so people choose not to. You can open widow mine drops, but it gets shut down by a forge and cannons. Hellion rushes are an option, but protoss can defend those reasonably easily. Thus, they aren't really considered 'options'. People aren't asking for more midgame stuff, they want early game attack options. How do you give more options without making something stronger? If it isn't at least as strong as things done at the exact same time, it isn't an option that's going to be used at all, and if it doesn't have a different response than normal toss play, it might as well not be there. If it does have a different response, then toss builds are affected and that's a power boost to terran.
They want midgame viability. They feel the best way to provide that is by giving terran better ability to pressure early. That is a seperate discussion from the "more Options" discussion because terran already HAVE early game pressure and people are asking for that pressure to be stronger.
When people ask for more OPTIONS that is a separate request where MMM is no longer the only tech being used for the mid and late game.
Currently, Terran has many options for early game pressure--people want those options to be stronger.
Terran also has few to no other options for midgame and lategame terran compositions and strategy--people want those options to be more plentiful.
The people asking for PO nerfs and timing buffs want *stronger* terran options. The people asking for Mech, Sky, Biomech, bioSky, etc... want more terran options.
Both tactics are an attempt to resolve the same issue of too few terran representation in the tournament scene.
Try not to get them confused because both require different arguments and different answers.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. If I remember this game correctly, it was before the mine buff (I could be wrong about that), but again, Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
If pulling half his SCVs after forcing a warp in of ~5 stalkers that didn't participate in the fight isn't enough at pretty much the fastest timing possible (note that Maru couldn't have had widow mines at this timing since he had just swapped his starport, so he had no time for widow mine prodution even one at a time, let alone out of an reactor), then what makes you think adding widow mines will allow him to punish this?
Because the lack of colossus meant that he had more gas for sentries, so he could just forcefield the army off to buy time. You don't go for scv pulls unless they go for colossus specifically for that reason. Typically with colossus builds, you only get 1-2 sentries maximum because you need the rest of your gas for upgrades, stalkers, robo bay, thermal lance, colossus, etc. He wasn't hitting a timing where essential tech was just coming online like he would against a colossus build where only the 2nd or 3rd is popping, zest didn't have templar tech about to finish or something he'd invested in. He was just making gateway units. The buffed mines would have torn Zest to shreds in that game, he had literally nothing that could deal with them.
Zest held that no problem, with 5 stalkers (625/250) not even in the fight, despite Maru having his whole army and stim + combat shields + medivac vs pure gateway units. Since Zest was playing defensively with a stalker heavy composition I dont think widow mines would have been a problem to deal with at all, he didn't need to pursue Maru's army or go into melee range and if the widow mines tried to run in where they would be a threat he could have targetted them down. Without the SCV's to buffer damage Maru's army is even less threatening. Any time Maru is delayed further gives Zest time to add tech (Zest was already even in upgrades after that engagement btw).
Maru shouldn't have pulled the scvs in the first place, and he didn't need to all-in immediately. Zest had no tech about to finish that was important, Maru didn't have a timing. Instead all he needed to do was trade efficiently and pick away at Zest while he got his own third. Mines are great for that: they make zealots invalid, zest didn't have a robo, he didn't have a templar archives, he literally only had stalker/zealot. If you're trying to suggest that zealot/stalker/sentry is going to be straight up able to fight bio head on over a period of time, I don't know what to tell you. Maru lost because he bashed his head against it and just shoved everything right in instead of trying to kite and trade. The previous discussion was about punishing a protoss who goes fast 3rd into tech: zest didn't tech, maru presumed without scouting that he would tech, and pulled his scvs.
Zest didn't even have his templar archives started when the push hit, let alone finished. You don't need to all-in the protoss there. And yeah, even in upgrades because he completely skipped tech, which means maru had the tech advantage, but he threw that away by just bashing his head against the forcefields and taking stalker shots to the face. All he had to do was wait for another couple of production rounds while trading and he would have been, at worst, even.
What tech advantage?
Medivacs, stim, combat shields, etc. vs no splash. Medivacs do count as tech, believe it or not.
And you're saying that the right decision when you have a tech advantage is to sit back, not knowing for sure when Protoss will finish up aoe tech?
Ok.
No, I'm saying be aggressive but don't scv all-in -_-. Notice during the engagement he just shoved everything into forcefields while stalkers killed them all. Instead, kite and pick the gateway units apart over time while you continue producing more medivacs and other units, then go for a kill move in a minute or two. Zest had no AoE at all on the way.
- You can't play upon the upgrade advantage unless you went 4' EB. Otherwise Forges + chrono allow Protoss to catch up. - You keep saying "if Protoss does this he just outplayed the Terran" without providing any argument. - More Terran options doesn't necessarily mean a better Terran winrate. - Winrates don't matter anyway when you have not a field with players of even or roughly even skill.
Winrates matter a lot actually.
The reason winrates are evening out is because only the top level terrans are left. Maru is about 50/50 with his protoss opponents, and being that Maru is one of the few terrans left, he takes up a large percentage of the terran population. Which tells us it is *possible* to get 50/50 in TvP so long as all terran players play like Maru.
Yes, I meant that 50:50 ≠ balance because of that kind of phenomenon.
Yes, but the resolution to this phenomenon is not by whining about balance. Under representation of a race is far more complex of a matter to resolve.
Sorry, I don't understand what your answer has to do with the previous subject?
When a matchup is 50/50 by definition it is balanced.
No: if AvB is 50:50 but the statistics involve top10 players from the race A against top50 players of the race B, this is a sign of imbalance.
Not really, it's a sign that one race is harder to play than the other. If the best terran can go 50/50 against the best toss, that's balance, and everything else is irrelevant.
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Maru didn't get a reaper or any scouting, and Zest's build abused that. Maru had no idea the third was there until it was too late, and that is not a testament to a safe or standard build protoss can get away with regularly. I would suggest that for this reason, command center first is a risky build compared to a reaper expand. You're sacrificing the ability to see what's going on for an early econ advantage, and Zest picked up on that. Further, maru did not go for a bio/mine push, he just did an scv all-in vs. mass gateway units. He almost broke through despite the defense being almost perfect for zest as well. There's a reason you don't do that all-in unless he's going for colossus, the cost of the colossus ties up a ton of gas and you hit at a time where there isn't enough return for that investment. Zest took a big risk and got away with it because Maru didn't commit to getting a scout. This is not indicative of something protoss can do as a standard, but rather what can happen if terran decides to gamble.
So yeah, if you want to argue that if terran opens command center first and gets denied all scouting constantly with the oracle that protoss can take a super fast 3rd, then I'll agree with that. Perhaps that's why you shouldn't go command center first.
On May 04 2014 07:21 Faust852 wrote: I like how Whitewing just stopped answering after DwF gave in the VOD.
Some of us don't sit in front of our computers all day just to argue in a thread, I went to watch a movie. Sorry I offended you.
On May 04 2014 06:33 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On May 04 2014 06:05 Whitewing wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:44 TheDwf wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:34 Whitewing wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:30 TheDwf wrote:
On May 04 2014 05:28 Whitewing wrote: [quote]
Not if terran punishes correctly. Happy is well known to prefer going to the late game rather than trying to punish his opponents greed. Further, you would agree Happy isn't one of the top terrans in the world, no? Even if bling isn't necessarily better than Happy, it only takes aggressive execution errors to make a greedy build viable.
How?
If protoss opts for templar defense (really the only option with a fast 3rd base), just execute some proper bio mine pushes and you should break him. Early ghost can be effective with the push since you won't need vikings. Templar builds don't have gas for good upgrades and can't really afford much of anything except zealots to go with them. If he opts for colossus, you should be able to break him with an scv pull or just kill him with drops, colossus aren't mobile enough and he won't have enough.
So apparently you're unaware that Protoss commonly go mass Blink Stalkers afterwards so you can't do anything with your first 2-4 Medivacs, then tech Charge and Storm so they can hold later agression when Stalkers start being inefficient against bio.
Again, you should have a huge upgrade advantage and should just be able to roll him over with a later bio/mine push. If Protoss goes fast 3rd into mass blink stalker into charge/storm and manages to hold, he just plain outplayed the terran.
I'd like to see a protoss try that against a player like Maru and see how that works out. Unfortunately, you're not likely to see that kind of build against a player as good as Maru.
Regardless, my initial question hasn't been answered yet: if Terran wins half the time right now, that means winrates are balanced. Aligulac suggests this is the case. If you give terran more options, that's a power swing. What then would you give to protoss to compensate for that new advantage to balance things out?
Options =/= Strength
Strength = Strength
If terran bio was good, and terran mech was good, bio doesn't suddenly become stronger
Much like Protoss going fast storm is good, and protoss going fast robo is also good.
Options =/= Stronger
Options do equal strength though, just indirectly. Consider: if terran gains new early game options that are viable strategies, then protoss has to be prepared for them or will simply blindly lose games. If they have to prepare, then that means their build has to take those options into account, which reduces their own options. Terran has aggressive options right now, like widow mine drops, hellbat marauder all-ins, cloak banshee openers, etc. It's just that protoss builds currently take these options into account and defend them, so terrans don't really consider them options. If you introduce new options, you take options away from the opponent. That is the same as adding strength. Hypothetically, let's say banshees got a buff of some sort (let's say movement speed so they could outrun stalkers easily). Suddenly cloak banshee openers are more viable and more common. What impact does this have? Every toss build now must include detection, which means robo skipping 2 base stalker blink builds or super fast 3rd builds just cease to exist unless they want to gamble that terran isn't going banshee. This limits protoss to early robo builds, early cannon builds, and early stargate builds. Terran no longer needs to be nearly as concerned about fast twilight builds because the threat of banshees prevents them from being a standard. You'd still see them as gamble builds occasionally, but they aren't usable as a standard (just like widow mine drops aren't usable as a standard).
That's just a hypothetical example. Let's say you give terran attack options by nerfing the photon overcharge. Suddenly every protoss has to spend much of the early game being worried about defending everything, which means investments into more sentries and early stalkers, etc. That's a big buff to terran because you're killing protoss build options and limiting their growth rates.
Okay, let's say you make it so terran can attack early more regularly, because you decide you don't like protoss being able to play with their current standard builds. That's going to result in a shift in power towards terran, because even if terran doesn't use those timings and plays like they currently do, protoss has to take that potential into account. What do you propose protoss gains in return to balance out the matchup if you make a change of that nature?
You don't seem to understand what the word "Options" means.
Nerfin Photon Overcharge is not giving options, it is giving a Terran attack more strength. Giving Banshees more speed is buffing a unit so that an attack is stronger.
Changing the reaper's stats, movement speed, and tech requirements *changed its role* from early harass that could scout to pure scout. Its damage, was weakened. Its top end speed, was weakened. The unit as a whole was nerfed, its tech availability sped up, and its role changed into something different than what it used to be.
Making timing attacks that already occur stronger is, by definition, stronger.
Giving a terran options does not weaken or buff anything. Right now the terran early game is diverse--but the responses to it is linear. Terran midgame and lategame is linear--it does not matter how Terran opens they ALWAYS use the same midgame and lategame. When people ask for Terran options all they ask for is having variant options during the midgame and lategame. You seem to be scared of new timing attacks as if that is the only thing people are asking for; that is ridiculous.
Terran has options, they're just weaker than people want them to be. You can open cloak banshee, it just gets shut down if toss has a robo or a stargate, so people choose not to. You can open widow mine drops, but it gets shut down by a forge and cannons. Hellion rushes are an option, but protoss can defend those reasonably easily. Thus, they aren't really considered 'options'. People aren't asking for more midgame stuff, they want early game attack options. How do you give more options without making something stronger? If it isn't at least as strong as things done at the exact same time, it isn't an option that's going to be used at all, and if it doesn't have a different response than normal toss play, it might as well not be there. If it does have a different response, then toss builds are affected and that's a power boost to terran.
They want midgame viability. They feel the best way to provide that is by giving terran better ability to pressure early. That is a seperate discussion from the "more Options" discussion because terran already HAVE early game pressure and people are asking for that pressure to be stronger.
When people ask for more OPTIONS that is a separate request where MMM is no longer the only tech being used for the mid and late game.
Currently, Terran has many options for early game pressure--people want those options to be stronger.
Terran also has few to no other options for midgame and lategame terran compositions and strategy--people want those options to be more plentiful.
The people asking for PO nerfs and timing buffs want *stronger* terran options. The people asking for Mech, Sky, Biomech, bioSky, etc... want more terran options.
Both tactics are an attempt to resolve the same issue of too few terran representation in the tournament scene.
Try not to get them confused because both require different arguments and different answers.
Options are a buff. If terran can go mech and have it be equally as effective as bio, then that's a buff because protoss builds and strategies need to take that into account. That limits protoss, which is a buff.
- You can't play upon the upgrade advantage unless you went 4' EB. Otherwise Forges + chrono allow Protoss to catch up. - You keep saying "if Protoss does this he just outplayed the Terran" without providing any argument. - More Terran options doesn't necessarily mean a better Terran winrate. - Winrates don't matter anyway when you have not a field with players of even or roughly even skill.
Winrates matter a lot actually.
The reason winrates are evening out is because only the top level terrans are left. Maru is about 50/50 with his protoss opponents, and being that Maru is one of the few terrans left, he takes up a large percentage of the terran population. Which tells us it is *possible* to get 50/50 in TvP so long as all terran players play like Maru.
Yes, I meant that 50:50 ≠ balance because of that kind of phenomenon.
Yes, but the resolution to this phenomenon is not by whining about balance. Under representation of a race is far more complex of a matter to resolve.
Sorry, I don't understand what your answer has to do with the previous subject?
When a matchup is 50/50 by definition it is balanced.
No: if AvB is 50:50 but the statistics involve top10 players from the race A against top50 players of the race B, this is a sign of imbalance.
Not really, it's a sign that one race is harder to play than the other. If the best terran can go 50/50 against the best toss, that's balance, and everything else is irrelevant.
So whether the game is balanced or not depends on the players who are playing it? If that's not the most useless definition of the word 'balance' I've ever encountered, I don't know what is. What if Maru and Polt stop playing SC2 tomorrow, suddenly TvP takes a huge dive because no one else can mechanically reproduce their success, and, what? The game is now imbalanced because it went from 50/50 to 55/45 based on two top 5 players disappearing? That's a joke if ever there was one.
What if we make Terran even harder to play mechanically than it is now, so that there are zero Terrans in Code S. There's still the chance that if a good enough player comes along to play Terran, like, five times better than Maru is now, he'll slaughter everyone... so... I guess the game would still be potentially imbalanced in Terran's favor, in some absurd and clearly useless meaning of the words?
A balanced MU is one where Hypothetical Player playing Race A can play his mirror universe twin who plays Race B and they will come out at 50/50 over any long-enough stretch. That is balance. Very simple. Objectively immeasurable because there are no mirror universe twins who have been playing different races for the exact same period of time, but subjectively very measurable because we have brains that are capable of entertaining hypothetical scenarios.
Like here's a hypothetical scenario, MVP.Tails starts playing Terran. He's never heard from again for as long as he lives. That's not balance.
Options are a buff. If terran can go mech and have it be equally as effective as bio, then that's a buff because protoss builds and strategies need to take that into account. That limits protoss, which is a buff.
Please show me the Terran who has said that, if Terran gets new options and they are too strong for Protoss to handle, shifting the balance completely in Terran's favor, we are against a Protoss buff.
- You can't play upon the upgrade advantage unless you went 4' EB. Otherwise Forges + chrono allow Protoss to catch up. - You keep saying "if Protoss does this he just outplayed the Terran" without providing any argument. - More Terran options doesn't necessarily mean a better Terran winrate. - Winrates don't matter anyway when you have not a field with players of even or roughly even skill.
Winrates matter a lot actually.
The reason winrates are evening out is because only the top level terrans are left. Maru is about 50/50 with his protoss opponents, and being that Maru is one of the few terrans left, he takes up a large percentage of the terran population. Which tells us it is *possible* to get 50/50 in TvP so long as all terran players play like Maru.
Yes, I meant that 50:50 ≠ balance because of that kind of phenomenon.
Yes, but the resolution to this phenomenon is not by whining about balance. Under representation of a race is far more complex of a matter to resolve.
Sorry, I don't understand what your answer has to do with the previous subject?
When a matchup is 50/50 by definition it is balanced.
No: if AvB is 50:50 but the statistics involve top10 players from the race A against top50 players of the race B, this is a sign of imbalance.
Not really, it's a sign that one race is harder to play than the other. If the best terran can go 50/50 against the best toss, that's balance, and everything else is irrelevant.
Wow. Have you read much of this thread or just this forum regarding winrates? They even out because imbalance allows mediocre Protoss to stay longer in tournament and get taken out by top Terrans. Whereas mediocre Terrans are rarely found past qualifiers.
Also, ForGG, jjakji skew TvP in EU scene regarding TvP balance.
EPT
