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On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it.
The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s).
And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T.
Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game.
You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here.
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On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here.
QFT
The question is when will T players get off their high horse and lose that "superiority/entitlement" attitude/mentality.
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On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game.
Then you're playing the wrong game my man. I would suggest unranked and arcade play tbh, ranked is not for you
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On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here.
Again with the strawman. Ive never said it should be balanced for all levels, im saying that it should be balanced for top ladder, since anyone who plays ranked aspires to get higher up on ladder and given that its impossible to balance it at all levels this is what has to be aimed at. So stop fucking putting words in my mouth. Ive already said that I dont mind seeing a 5-7% difference in race representation in the upper leagues, but to have 23% t in gm and 44% protoss and almost the same istuation being found in master; you seriously dont see any problem with that? Are you delusional?
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On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here.
The game can be balance a different skill level of play. See March 2012 where everything was 50% at pro, and no one cried about GM or Master. Then patchqueen came.
See October 2013, stats were close to 50% at pro level, GM was closer to 30% for T, and noone cried. Then PatchOracleNerfMine came.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 09 2013 08:13 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Then you're playing the wrong game my man. I would suggest unranked and arcade play tbh, ranked is not for you
Seriously, if the game is balanced at the top level, the game is balanced, period. You're just making mistakes and playing in a sub-par fashion: it's player error, not the game.
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On December 09 2013 08:17 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here. The game can be balance a different skill level of play. See March 2012 where everything was 50% at pro, and no one cried about GM or Master. Then patchqueen came. See October 2013, stats were close to 50% at pro level, GM was closer to 30% for T, and noone cried. Than PatchOracleNerfMine came.
Indeed. Theres this random assumption that you EITHER balance at Taeja and Dear level OR that you have 33% of each race in Grandmaster and that there cant be anything in between. Theres CLEARLY a problem with protoss earlygame options, which, while not necessarily affecting Taeja and the likes on a good day, has a hugely detrimental effect on tvp for anyone below 250apm. And to see protoss come in here and pretend that nothing is amiss when we see such a huge discrepancy between the races when it comes to viable strats is the biggest joke of it all.
If Grandmaster was made up of 44% terran and 23% protoss wed never hear the fucking end of it. So stop being such fucking hypocrites.
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On December 09 2013 08:17 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here. Again with the strawman. Ive never said it should be balanced for all levels, im saying that it should be balanced for top ladder, since anyone who plays ranked aspires to get higher up on ladder and given that its impossible to balance it at all levels this is what has to be aimed at. So stop fucking putting words in my mouth. Ive already said that I dont mind seeing a 5-7% difference in race representation in the upper leagues, but to have 23% t in gm and 44% protoss and almost the same istuation being found in master; you seriously dont see any problem with that? Are you delusional? No, I have no problem with that. If you altered the game so that similar numbers were found in each leagues, you would mess up the top balance of play, which would lead to people switching to the "favored" race, which would create a similarly unequal situation. Except this time, the top level balance would be messed up along with the GM representation.
Uneven representation + good top-level balance >>>> uneven representation + poor top-level balance.
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On December 09 2013 08:24 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:17 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here. Again with the strawman. Ive never said it should be balanced for all levels, im saying that it should be balanced for top ladder, since anyone who plays ranked aspires to get higher up on ladder and given that its impossible to balance it at all levels this is what has to be aimed at. So stop fucking putting words in my mouth. Ive already said that I dont mind seeing a 5-7% difference in race representation in the upper leagues, but to have 23% t in gm and 44% protoss and almost the same istuation being found in master; you seriously dont see any problem with that? Are you delusional? No, I have no problem with that. If you altered the game so that similar numbers were found in each leagues, you would mess up the top balance of play, which would lead to people switching to the "favored" race, which would create a similarly unequal situation. Except this time, the top level balance would be messed up along with the GM representation. Uneven representation + good top-level balance >>>> uneven representation + poor top-level balance.
Except this isnt true, we already now the game has had periods with fairly equal distribution on ladder and very close to 50% winrates in tournaments. You simply make an anfounded assumption that if the game is balanced so that there is equal race-distribution in grandmaster then it must inevitably be imbalanced in the proscene. Why would that be?
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On December 09 2013 08:19 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:13 ffadicted wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Then you're playing the wrong game my man. I would suggest unranked and arcade play tbh, ranked is not for you Seriously, if the game is balanced at the top level, the game is balanced, period. You're just making mistakes and playing in a sub-par fashion: it's player error, not the game.
You don't have the right notion of Balance. If you need 10h/day to be even with someone who play 10h/day, it's balanced.
If you need 5h/day to be even with someone who play 1h a day, it's clearly unbalanced.
That's how it feels right now, protoss is much much easier in GML/ML because it's at the amateur level, where ppl can't play as much as pros do.
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On December 09 2013 08:25 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:24 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 08:17 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here. Again with the strawman. Ive never said it should be balanced for all levels, im saying that it should be balanced for top ladder, since anyone who plays ranked aspires to get higher up on ladder and given that its impossible to balance it at all levels this is what has to be aimed at. So stop fucking putting words in my mouth. Ive already said that I dont mind seeing a 5-7% difference in race representation in the upper leagues, but to have 23% t in gm and 44% protoss and almost the same istuation being found in master; you seriously dont see any problem with that? Are you delusional? No, I have no problem with that. If you altered the game so that similar numbers were found in each leagues, you would mess up the top balance of play, which would lead to people switching to the "favored" race, which would create a similarly unequal situation. Except this time, the top level balance would be messed up along with the GM representation. Uneven representation + good top-level balance >>>> uneven representation + poor top-level balance. Except this isnt true, we already now the game has had periods with fairly equal distribution on ladder and very close to 50% winrates in tournaments. You simply make an anfounded assumption that if the game is balanced so that there is equal race-distribution in grandmaster then it must inevitably be imbalanced in the proscene. Why would that be? Because current proscene winrates are balanced. Therefore if you objectively buff T and/or nerf P, you would alter the balance at the top. Period.
Players were far worse at the game and the map pool was far different when racial distributions were closer to even across-the-board. It is in no way safe to assume that as the game has gotten more figured out and developed that you can return to this state.
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On December 09 2013 08:25 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:19 Whitewing wrote:On December 09 2013 08:13 ffadicted wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Then you're playing the wrong game my man. I would suggest unranked and arcade play tbh, ranked is not for you Seriously, if the game is balanced at the top level, the game is balanced, period. You're just making mistakes and playing in a sub-par fashion: it's player error, not the game. You don't have the right notion of Balance. If you need 10h/day to be even with someone who play 10h/day, it's balanced. If you need 5h/day to be even with someone who play 1h a day, it's clearly unbalanced. That's how it feels right now, protoss is much much easier in GML/ML because it's at the amateur level, where ppl can't play as much as pros do. How it anecdotally "feels" and how it factually is are not remotely equivalent.
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And if bad player, we'll call them P for exemple, have 50% winrate vs good player, i'll randomly call them Z or T, is the game balanced ? I don't think winrate mean anything, but from what i feel after watching a lot of tournaments lately, P is ruining the game atm, and the race being op give win of good player like parting, rain or any other smart and good toss less meaning.
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On December 09 2013 08:29 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:25 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 08:24 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 08:17 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here. Again with the strawman. Ive never said it should be balanced for all levels, im saying that it should be balanced for top ladder, since anyone who plays ranked aspires to get higher up on ladder and given that its impossible to balance it at all levels this is what has to be aimed at. So stop fucking putting words in my mouth. Ive already said that I dont mind seeing a 5-7% difference in race representation in the upper leagues, but to have 23% t in gm and 44% protoss and almost the same istuation being found in master; you seriously dont see any problem with that? Are you delusional? No, I have no problem with that. If you altered the game so that similar numbers were found in each leagues, you would mess up the top balance of play, which would lead to people switching to the "favored" race, which would create a similarly unequal situation. Except this time, the top level balance would be messed up along with the GM representation. Uneven representation + good top-level balance >>>> uneven representation + poor top-level balance. Except this isnt true, we already now the game has had periods with fairly equal distribution on ladder and very close to 50% winrates in tournaments. You simply make an anfounded assumption that if the game is balanced so that there is equal race-distribution in grandmaster then it must inevitably be imbalanced in the proscene. Why would that be? Because current proscene winrates are balanced. Therefore if you objectively buff T and/or nerf P, you would alter the balance at the top. Period. Players were far worse at the game and the map pool was far different when racial distributions were closer to even across-the-board. It is in no way safe to assume that as the game has gotten more figured out and developed that you can return to this state.
Again not true at all. Introducing more earlygame options for terran wouldnt necessarily scew probalance at all but make more strats viable on ladder which would reflect positively on the race. You make completely unsound assumptions which are blatantly false. We already have the proof that the number of earlygame options a race has doesnt necessarily reflect their overall performance in the proscene, just look at protoss who has 20 allins who are all perfectly viable in grandmaster but only maybe 5 who are really viable when you play a top tier opponent. Im asking for the same for terran. Youre assuming more options means more powerful options. No... we need more options, neither of which needs to be more powerful than the current ones are. Hence it becomes a matter of scouting for the protoss, who now often doesnt even bother scouting while terran has to send an scv AND a reaper.
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It's simple, if you balance at one skill level, you balance 6 matchups. If you balance for 2 skill levels you balance 12 matchups.
Most of people here don't think Blizz is doing the best job with 6, so it doesn't make much sense talking about 12. Although it's possible to balance them all at least in theory.
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Most ppl want higher skill ceiling in the game. With that will come inherent imbalances in the lower levels, and we just have to live with that imo.
On December 09 2013 08:33 Maismz wrote:
And if bad player, we'll call them P for exemple, have 50% winrate vs good player, i'll randomly call them Z or T, is the game balanced ? I don't think winrate mean anything, but from what i feel after watching a lot of tournaments lately, P is ruining the game atm, and the race being op give win of good player like parting, rain or any other smart and good toss less meaning.
EDIT: I misunderstood
Still though, I don't understand why you'd claim that haha The game is actually extremely close to balance. No one is taking anything away from Mvp ffor winning GSLs during GomTvT "racial imbalance"
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On December 09 2013 08:37 ffadicted wrote:
Most ppl want higher skill ceiling in the game. With that will come inherent imbalances in the lower levels, and we just have to live with that imo.
How making proxy oracle the most common strat on the ladder raising the skill ceiling ?
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On December 09 2013 08:37 ffadicted wrote:Most ppl want higher skill ceiling in the game. With that will come inherent imbalances in the lower levels, and we just have to live with that imo. Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:33 Maismz wrote:
And if bad player, we'll call them P for exemple, have 50% winrate vs good player, i'll randomly call them Z or T, is the game balanced ? I don't think winrate mean anything, but from what i feel after watching a lot of tournaments lately, P is ruining the game atm, and the race being op give win of good player like parting, rain or any other smart and good toss less meaning. Using PartinG and especially Rain as someone who's taking wins because of his race is a good way to lose credibility lol
He didn't say that, he said Rain or Parting's wins lost their meanings because of the current imbalance.
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On December 09 2013 08:21 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:17 Faust852 wrote:On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here. The game can be balance a different skill level of play. See March 2012 where everything was 50% at pro, and no one cried about GM or Master. Then patchqueen came. See October 2013, stats were close to 50% at pro level, GM was closer to 30% for T, and noone cried. Than PatchOracleNerfMine came. Indeed. Theres this random assumption that you EITHER balance at Taeja and Dear level OR that you have 33% of each race in Grandmaster and that there cant be anything in between. Theres CLEARLY a problem with protoss earlygame options, which, while not necessarily affecting Taeja and the likes on a good day, has a hugely detrimental effect on tvp for anyone below 250apm. And to see protoss come in here and pretend that nothing is amiss when we see such a huge discrepancy between the races when it comes to viable strats is the biggest joke of it all. If Grandmaster was made up of 44% terran and 23% protoss wed never hear the fucking end of it. So stop being such fucking hypocrites.
Why would I care what the race distribution of GM was as long as each race was winning an even percentage of the time? Perhaps I'd have fewer role models to emulate or watch, but there's still a few hundred Terrans in GM, and not all top players play GM anyway. You ranting about things and justifying them by saying "Well if the tables were turned, you would rant too" doesn't actually validate your claims, because there's no evidence that we would be complaining about how not having fun = imbalanced, or how having a hundred fewer players of Race X means that Race X is necessarily being discriminated against. It's fine that you care more about the balance of the racial distribution than you do the results of the games, but holy cow, looking at these last few posts of yours... you're really, really angry :/
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On December 09 2013 08:35 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:29 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 08:25 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 08:24 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 08:17 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 08:05 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:56 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:[quote] Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing. I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that. Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran. So you don't care about balance. Got it. The skill levels of you and everybody else will always constantly be in flux. It's pretty much impossible to make things balanced at all skill levels of play, so having three different races with different strengths and weaknesses will create many, many different thresholds for one race being easier or harder or better or worse or whatever than the other(s). And what about the Protosses that play against T players in GM with good winrates vP? If you nerf P/buff T, you screw over P players that have to play against those already good T. Your desires are inherently selfish. Balancing for any level of play other than the top will create imbalances at the top level, and additionally create a bunch of players with a different set of problems than you that now have an unfair game. You don't want Blizzard to make things better for the game, you want them to make things better for you. The sooner you admit it and acknowledge it, the sooner you can stop whining here. Again with the strawman. Ive never said it should be balanced for all levels, im saying that it should be balanced for top ladder, since anyone who plays ranked aspires to get higher up on ladder and given that its impossible to balance it at all levels this is what has to be aimed at. So stop fucking putting words in my mouth. Ive already said that I dont mind seeing a 5-7% difference in race representation in the upper leagues, but to have 23% t in gm and 44% protoss and almost the same istuation being found in master; you seriously dont see any problem with that? Are you delusional? No, I have no problem with that. If you altered the game so that similar numbers were found in each leagues, you would mess up the top balance of play, which would lead to people switching to the "favored" race, which would create a similarly unequal situation. Except this time, the top level balance would be messed up along with the GM representation. Uneven representation + good top-level balance >>>> uneven representation + poor top-level balance. Except this isnt true, we already now the game has had periods with fairly equal distribution on ladder and very close to 50% winrates in tournaments. You simply make an anfounded assumption that if the game is balanced so that there is equal race-distribution in grandmaster then it must inevitably be imbalanced in the proscene. Why would that be? Because current proscene winrates are balanced. Therefore if you objectively buff T and/or nerf P, you would alter the balance at the top. Period. Players were far worse at the game and the map pool was far different when racial distributions were closer to even across-the-board. It is in no way safe to assume that as the game has gotten more figured out and developed that you can return to this state. Again not true at all. Introducing more earlygame options for terran wouldnt necessarily scew probalance at all but make more strats viable on ladder which would reflect positively on the race. You make completely unsound assumptions which are blatantly false. We already have the proof that the number of earlygame options a race has doesnt necessarily reflect their overall performance in the proscene, just look at protoss who has 20 allins who are all perfectly viable in grandmaster but only maybe 5 who are really viable when you play a top tier opponent. Im asking for the same for terran. Youre assuming more options means more powerful options. No... we need more options, neither of which needs to be more powerful than the current ones are. Hence it becomes a matter of scouting for the protoss, who now often doesnt even bother scouting while terran has to send an scv AND a reaper. How do you introduce those options in a way that doesn't disrupt current balance, though?
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EPT
