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On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel
Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time).
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On December 09 2013 00:54 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 00:41 Bagi wrote:
The issue with protoss right now is pretty similar to terran in early WOL, they have too many all-ins they can do and they require very good responses from their opponent to defend.
Its less obvious in pro games but it makes the ladder a total joke because relatively terrible players like Maximusblack are nearing GM because of the potential to all in every game. Well not only they have most variety in the early game but also super strong late game and can also comfortably sit back while they build up that army. There is no race against the time when playing protoss. This is especially true against terran. Protoss is tough at first because you need to learn how to split your units properly against 2 pronged attacks, when to safely take the third etc. but once you master that, the things change drastically in protoss favor. At least that is how I see it.
Obviously, but surviving the midgame still takes some skill against a GM-level terran.
Proxying oracles does not.
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On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time).
4gate is a bad example. Literally every pro game was 4gate v 4gate, obviously that's bad for the game.
In the subject of balancing around pros vs. balancing around the 99%, that's just how it's always been (and, in my opinion, always will be). Anywhere but pro, overcoming your own personal flaws trumps fixing small imbalances in the game
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On December 09 2013 00:57 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 00:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:41 Bagi wrote:
The issue with protoss right now is pretty similar to terran in early WOL, they have too many all-ins they can do and they require very good responses from their opponent to defend.
Its less obvious in pro games but it makes the ladder a total joke because relatively terrible players like Maximusblack are nearing GM because of the potential to all in every game. Well not only they have most variety in the early game but also super strong late game and can also comfortably sit back while they build up that army. There is no race against the time when playing protoss. This is especially true against terran. Protoss is tough at first because you need to learn how to split your units properly against 2 pronged attacks, when to safely take the third etc. but once you master that, the things change drastically in protoss favor. At least that is how I see it. Obviously, but surviving the midgame still takes some skill against a GM-level terran. Proxying oracles does not.
You're right there. Though I've been saying the oracle didn't need a buff since they first suggested it. The buff made PvP unstable on some maps again. That bugs me because before it PvP was in a really good place. Now half of my PvPs on two player maps are people going blind proxy oracle without ever scouting and just hoping I don't have two stalkers and if I do they lose. That's not fun in any way. But I guess some people would rather have an easy win over a fun game.
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Ya I think even most tosses were confused by the oracle buff lol IMO it had the worst impact on PvP
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On December 09 2013 01:03 ffadicted wrote:
4gate is a bad example. Literally every pro game was 4gate v 4gate, obviously that's bad for the game.
In the subject of balancing around pros vs. balancing around the 99%, that's just how it's always been (and, in my opinion, always will be). Anywhere but pro, overcoming your own personal flaws trumps fixing small imbalances in the game
Lol, this is funny, obviously a Protoss player would say this.
Yeah, let's overcome our own personal flaws and improve as players, except when the "small imbalances in the game" favour Terran (like widow mines, and many other terran nerfs), then we cry until Blizzard nerfs the shit out of it.
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On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time).
Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked.
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On December 09 2013 02:22 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 01:03 ffadicted wrote:
4gate is a bad example. Literally every pro game was 4gate v 4gate, obviously that's bad for the game.
In the subject of balancing around pros vs. balancing around the 99%, that's just how it's always been (and, in my opinion, always will be). Anywhere but pro, overcoming your own personal flaws trumps fixing small imbalances in the game Lol, this is funny, obviously a Protoss player would say this.Yeah, let's overcome our own personal flaws and improve as players, except when the "small imbalances in the game" favour Terran (like widow mines, and many other terran nerfs), then we cry until Blizzard nerfs the shit out of it.
1. Everyone cries about everything. That's why we have this thread.
2. Pretty much everyone noticed the problem with 4gate vs. 4gate in PvP. When you're forced into a certain build and unit composition every game of a single match-up, the match-up becomes stale and it's not good for the scene. Stargate and even robo tech weren't considered viable for a very long time in WoL, which made PvP no fun to play or watch. Why do you think so many Terran players want mech to be viable against Protoss, and why there's constantly been a focus of that match-up by Blizzard? As effective as it can be, it's boring as hell to go MMMM every game, simply because there are no other alternatives. Players want variety, and the opportunity to try new things. And that's perfectly justifiable.
3. This is at best tangential to the contrast between assessing pro games and assessing lower league games when looking for racial imbalance though. If you're a low league Terran losing to low league Protosses, it's not because Protoss are overpowered. It's because you suck at the game and you need to get your mechanics down. If you're a professional Terran player and you (and all other professional Terran players) are losing to professional Protosses, then your games are more valid descriptors of balance because at that level, everyone's mechanics are generally incredibly solid, leaving fewer variables when assessing the causes for the outcomes of the game.
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On December 09 2013 02:22 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 01:03 ffadicted wrote:
4gate is a bad example. Literally every pro game was 4gate v 4gate, obviously that's bad for the game.
In the subject of balancing around pros vs. balancing around the 99%, that's just how it's always been (and, in my opinion, always will be). Anywhere but pro, overcoming your own personal flaws trumps fixing small imbalances in the game Yeah, let's overcome our own personal flaws and improve as players
Yes, let's do that lol
Read the post above me by DarkPlasma, buffing this lil thing here and lil thing there isn't going to suddenly make players in platinum stop getting supply blocked for a minute 8:30 into the game and not being able to make workers constantly until full saturation.
Let's not balance a game people make a living off of and there's an entire worldwide industry relying on it because some guy in the forums that can't use more than 3 hotkeys complains about "imbu" lol It's just the reality of it. The NBA isn't going to lower the rim because average folks can't dunk.
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On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked.
And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it.
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On December 09 2013 03:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 02:22 fried_rice wrote:On December 09 2013 01:03 ffadicted wrote:
4gate is a bad example. Literally every pro game was 4gate v 4gate, obviously that's bad for the game.
In the subject of balancing around pros vs. balancing around the 99%, that's just how it's always been (and, in my opinion, always will be). Anywhere but pro, overcoming your own personal flaws trumps fixing small imbalances in the game Lol, this is funny, obviously a Protoss player would say this.Yeah, let's overcome our own personal flaws and improve as players, except when the "small imbalances in the game" favour Terran (like widow mines, and many other terran nerfs), then we cry until Blizzard nerfs the shit out of it. 1. Everyone cries about everything. That's why we have this thread.
It's also why we can't have genuinely imba features (for all races) in gameplay that may enhance SC2. People ask for it, but then they cry when they get anything like it. Blizzard nerf it. Then they cry about a stale game etc. And so it goes on.
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On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it.
Well now. I certainly know what color herring you prefer.
On December 09 2013 03:36 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 03:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 02:22 fried_rice wrote:On December 09 2013 01:03 ffadicted wrote:
4gate is a bad example. Literally every pro game was 4gate v 4gate, obviously that's bad for the game.
In the subject of balancing around pros vs. balancing around the 99%, that's just how it's always been (and, in my opinion, always will be). Anywhere but pro, overcoming your own personal flaws trumps fixing small imbalances in the game Lol, this is funny, obviously a Protoss player would say this.Yeah, let's overcome our own personal flaws and improve as players, except when the "small imbalances in the game" favour Terran (like widow mines, and many other terran nerfs), then we cry until Blizzard nerfs the shit out of it. 1. Everyone cries about everything. That's why we have this thread. It's also why we can't have genuinely imba features (for all races) in gameplay that may enhance SC2. People ask for it, but then they cry when they get anything like it. Blizzard nerf it. Then they cry again about a stale game. And so it goes on.
That reminds me of BW, when there were quite a few things that were absurdly powerful... but each race had their own absurdly powerful things and it all magically balanced out :D
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Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P.
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On December 09 2013 03:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P.
Didn't MMA just win WCS eu season 3?
also fyi, jjakjji smashed iem sao paolo qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VIII_-_Sao_Paulo/European_Qualifier
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
The main problem, for me, subjectively, speaking in my name (just so that I don't get lashed at), was that even though the game is frustrating to play and can be tedious because you know if you made a set of Zerglings instead of a set of Drones you would have survived the attack, the problem is, the game is not fun. Note, I shall use the word "toxic" as in means to explain certain things that make the game frustrating, less fun or no fun at all.
Now, don't get me wrong, hear me out.
What every game hates and despises is "toxic" abilities. If anyone has ever played League of Legends, I'll compare Widow Mines to AP Nidalee's spears. As much as you'd like to have "the perfectly balanced game", you NEED, let me repeat that, you NEED to make it fun for the players who are not as gifted as professionals, or those who simply do not have time to invest in the game. Many friends of mine stopped playing the game completely after HotS was released and meta has settled in. Some despise the Photon Overcharge, some despise the Widow Mines, some still absolutely hate Banelings etc etc. These are all "toxic" abilities that ruin the fun for the player.
It is Blizzard's job to balance the game in the top-tier as much as it is fun to play. Back to my previous comparison, no one likes to see 80% of their HP chopped down by a random spear and certainly no one likes having their units blown up by a forgotten mine. Before you accuse me of being a silver noob etc, I was a mid-Diamond player pre-Queen buff and being on pair with Masters players post-Queen buff (Zerg player here). So, my mechanics were not the best, but I understood the game quite well (not bragging here, just making a line of defense against pointless flames).
Now, everything must come together, and it is a hard job to do. Making the game balanced, fun to play and at the same time, a game that should be fun to watch as well. I'd say the game is balanced, but, you still have to include the fun factor. Speaking for myself, the game is currently not fun to play for me, for several reasons, but I shall not go there.
Borderline speaking, the game should be fun to play and having minimal "toxic" units at disposal. I won't go into "cheese" factor, as I understand it is a part of the game, but I still alt-f4 as soon as I lose to +1 Zealot allin several times in a row.
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On December 09 2013 03:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 02:22 fried_rice wrote:On December 09 2013 01:03 ffadicted wrote:
4gate is a bad example. Literally every pro game was 4gate v 4gate, obviously that's bad for the game.
In the subject of balancing around pros vs. balancing around the 99%, that's just how it's always been (and, in my opinion, always will be). Anywhere but pro, overcoming your own personal flaws trumps fixing small imbalances in the game Lol, this is funny, obviously a Protoss player would say this.Yeah, let's overcome our own personal flaws and improve as players, except when the "small imbalances in the game" favour Terran (like widow mines, and many other terran nerfs), then we cry until Blizzard nerfs the shit out of it. 1. Everyone cries about everything. That's why we have this thread. 2. Pretty much everyone noticed the problem with 4gate vs. 4gate in PvP. When you're forced into a certain build and unit composition every game of a single match-up, the match-up becomes stale and it's not good for the scene. Stargate and even robo tech weren't considered viable for a very long time in WoL, which made PvP no fun to play or watch. Why do you think so many Terran players want mech to be viable against Protoss, and why there's constantly been a focus of that match-up by Blizzard? As effective as it can be, it's boring as hell to go MMMM every game, simply because there are no other alternatives. Players want variety, and the opportunity to try new things. And that's perfectly justifiable. 3. This is at best tangential to the contrast between assessing pro games and assessing lower league games when looking for racial imbalance though. If you're a low league Terran losing to low league Protosses, it's not because Protoss are overpowered. It's because you suck at the game and you need to get your mechanics down. If you're a professional Terran player and you (and all other professional Terran players) are losing to professional Protosses, then your games are more valid descriptors of balance because at that level, everyone's mechanics are generally incredibly solid, leaving fewer variables when assessing the causes for the outcomes of the game.
tvp ince 2010?
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On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it.
My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you should balance around pro level. Chill out.
Terrans are reaching all time high levels of whining at everything lately haha Have some dignity. You're whining more than toss did back in sad zealot days, by far the worst racial imbalance times in the history of sc2 so far.
Maybe we need to make a sad marine fanclub for you guys now
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Proxy oracle every game where's the imbalance guys?
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On December 09 2013 03:36 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 03:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 02:22 fried_rice wrote:On December 09 2013 01:03 ffadicted wrote:
4gate is a bad example. Literally every pro game was 4gate v 4gate, obviously that's bad for the game.
In the subject of balancing around pros vs. balancing around the 99%, that's just how it's always been (and, in my opinion, always will be). Anywhere but pro, overcoming your own personal flaws trumps fixing small imbalances in the game Lol, this is funny, obviously a Protoss player would say this.Yeah, let's overcome our own personal flaws and improve as players, except when the "small imbalances in the game" favour Terran (like widow mines, and many other terran nerfs), then we cry until Blizzard nerfs the shit out of it. 1. Everyone cries about everything. That's why we have this thread. It's also why we can't have genuinely imba features (for all races) in gameplay that may enhance SC2. People ask for it, but then they cry when they get anything like it. Blizzard nerf it. Then they cry about a stale game etc. And so it goes on.
We have pretty broken features. Mutalisks, Marines, MsC, Warpgates, the whole larva principle, Mules, Chronoboost, Creep, how upgrades work on certain units...
It's only natural that people will pin those things as "the balance problem" if a matchup is broken. Especially if it has not been prominent before the metagamebalance changed.
It's much easier to complain about widow mines, the MsC, "natural" upgrade advantages and queen builds, than to use a "OK, let's accept that this just plays like it does... what advantages can I get myself or can blizzard provide via patches, to balance this out".
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On December 09 2013 04:34 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it. My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you shouldn't balance around pro level. Chill out. Terrans are reaching all time high levels of whining at everything lately haha Have some dignity. You're whining more than toss did back in sad zealot days, by far the worst racial imbalance times in the history of sc2 so far. Maybe we need to make a sad marine fanclub for you guys now
Global P:480 (34%) T:453 (32%) Z:429 (30%) R:45 (3%)
This is how GM distribution looked like in times when what you call "worst racial imbalance in history of sc2" was going on(this is from 21-06-2011)
Thats for reference how strugling of P pro players was corelated to actual ladder play.
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EPT
