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On December 09 2013 04:00 Ana_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 03:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P. Didn't MMA just win WCS eu season 3?
That's my point exactly. He's good enough to win WCS EU, then there's a nerf, and suddenly he loses to foreigners. A most ominous sign, especially as we saw this exact situation in 2012.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
You should balance around pro level, or close to it.
The problem I have with the game of late is that it's not FUN, certain matchups less than others.
Make changes to make the game more enjoyable for the lower levels for sure, but don't balance around them
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On December 09 2013 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 04:00 Ana_ wrote:On December 09 2013 03:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P. Didn't MMA just win WCS eu season 3? That's my point exactly. He's good enough to win WCS EU, then there's a nerf, and suddenly he loses to foreigners. A most ominous sign, especially as we saw this exact situation in 2012.
Whether or not there is imbalance in the game one loss proves absolutely nothing and cannot be used as an argument worth the time it took to write it.
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On December 09 2013 05:34 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 09 2013 04:00 Ana_ wrote:On December 09 2013 03:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P. Didn't MMA just win WCS eu season 3? That's my point exactly. He's good enough to win WCS EU, then there's a nerf, and suddenly he loses to foreigners. A most ominous sign, especially as we saw this exact situation in 2012. Whether or not there is imbalance in the game one loss proves absolutely nothing and cannot be used as an argument worth the time it took to write it.
The whole is made up of single instances; in fact, the post you cited listed more than one 
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On December 09 2013 04:34 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it. My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you shouldn't balance around pro level. Chill out.
indeed you shouldnt. Most of us dont play professionally and this is a fucking game after all, we all payed for it so surely master and gm is important when it comes to balancing the game.
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On December 09 2013 03:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P.
...and then you actually read the post I was responding to, which was a question as to why we should balance around pro levels of play rather than lower league levels. I directly commented on Doominator10's question, which is a question often asked.
My god, between you and Snusmumriken, the one-track mind is practically unbearable. I made no comment on which race is better at the moment. I was explaining why it's more important to look at the pros than the noobs in relation to balancing the game. ffs if you guys are going to whine about everything irrelevant as a response to a completely different post, don't wonder why we stop explaining things to you people. Isn't there a Letting Off Steam thread that you can rage in, in spoilers?
EDIT: Why do I even check this thread from time to time. Sigh. It's almost as bad as when Terrans were raging in a LR thread the other day about how Innovation (who decisively beat San in a series) didn't win fast enough. Christ. It's the funniest thing ever when some Terrans start to complain about how badly the Zergs and Protosses are complaining. Terran whine is quite OP.
I'm done with this thread for now. Only makes me disappointed in people.
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remove zealots, add something like halo elites. mass able ranged unit that needs some micro skill to use. no more mindless 1a melee unit spamm.
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On December 09 2013 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 04:00 Ana_ wrote:On December 09 2013 03:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P. Didn't MMA just win WCS eu season 3? That's my point exactly. He's good enough to win WCS EU, then there's a nerf, and suddenly he loses to foreigners. A most ominous sign, especially as we saw this exact situation in 2012.
And Jjakji in IEM qualifiers?
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On December 09 2013 05:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 03:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P. ...and then you actually read the post I was responding to, which was a question as to why we should balance around pro levels of play rather than lower league levels. I directly commented on Doominator10's question, which is a question often asked. My god, between you and Snusmumriken, the one-track mind is practically unbearable. I made no comment on which race is better at the moment. I was explaining why it's more important to look at the pros than the noobs in relation to balancing the game. ffs if you guys are going to whine about everything irrelevant as a response to a completely different post, don't wonder why we stop explaining things to you people. Isn't there a Letting Off Steam thread that you can rage in, in spoilers? EDIT: Why do I even check this thread from time to time. Sigh. It's almost as bad as when Terrans were raging in a LR thread the other day about how Innovation (who decisively beat San in a series) didn't win fast enough. Christ. It's the funniest thing ever when some Terrans start to complain about how badly the Zergs and Protosses are complaining. Terran whine is quite OP. I'm done with this thread for now. Only makes me disappointed in people.
My post was meant to do two things: a) call you out on your ad hominem. You didn't even try to defend yourself. b) Direct the conversation back on track, which had been distracted by ffaddicted, which led to Doominator10's question that you happily responded to, despite the fact that it was distracting from the conversation at hand, leading up to you attacking a straw-man, and saying that terrans merely whine, which you repeated again.
You can call it whining, if you want, but the verdict won't be given for a while, but it's definitely a time to find the evidence for when the time is ripe to make a judgment. And the facts are troubling at best.
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On December 09 2013 05:47 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 04:34 ffadicted wrote:On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it. My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you shouldn't balance around pro level. Chill out. indeed you shouldnt. Most of us dont play professionally and this is a fucking game after all, we all payed for it so surely master and gm is important when it comes to balancing the game. You HAVE to balance around the professional level. Lower level players are lower level for various reasons. There's no way to "balance for lower levels" because players playing the game sub-optimally will not all be playing sub-optimally for the same or similar reasons. Balance tweaking for the lower levels might help some players, but hurt others even more in terms of lower-level "balance."
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On December 09 2013 06:24 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:47 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 04:34 ffadicted wrote:On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it. My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you shouldn't balance around pro level. Chill out. indeed you shouldnt. Most of us dont play professionally and this is a fucking game after all, we all payed for it so surely master and gm is important when it comes to balancing the game. You HAVE to balance around the professional level. Lower level players are lower level for various reasons. There's no way to "balance for lower levels" because players playing the game sub-optimally will not all be playing sub-optimally for the same or similar reasons. Balance tweaking for the lower levels might help some players, but hurt others even more in terms of lower-level "balance."
Im not talking bronzeleague. Im talking master and grandmaster. Guess where pros are? Thats right, grandmaster. Seriously, enough with the strawmen. I clearly stated that gm and master is heavily scewed in favour of protoss so why the fuck are you talking about "lower levels". Nobodys been talking about lower levels! Again: If theres twice the amount of protoss than there are terran in gm and master which isnt explained by fewer terrans overall (it isnt) then that is a serious problem. It doesnt matter if the game is balanced in professional bo3s or not. Most people has never and never will play professionally in any shape or formand we fucking payed for the game, so surely we can demand the ladder to be fair; which clearly isnt the case when its twice as easy to reach gm or master with protoss compared to terran.
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On December 09 2013 05:47 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 04:34 ffadicted wrote:On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it. My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you shouldn't balance around pro level. Chill out. indeed you shouldnt. Most of us dont play professionally and this is a fucking game after all, we all payed for it so surely master and gm is important when it comes to balancing the game.
Haha, I did obviously mean should, mistake on my part there. Tbh though, you're wrong, sorry, there really is no argument so it's my last post on the subject. Only thing that matters is balancing for the pro level game, because the reaosn you're losing is not imbalance, it's your lack of skill, while sometimes the reason pros lose is in fact imbalance.
Whether or not the game is currently imbalanced is a different conversation. If you agree with that, great, convo is over, if you don't, great, convo is still over lol
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On December 09 2013 06:38 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:47 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 04:34 ffadicted wrote:On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it. My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you shouldn't balance around pro level. Chill out. indeed you shouldnt. Most of us dont play professionally and this is a fucking game after all, we all payed for it so surely master and gm is important when it comes to balancing the game. Haha, I did obviously mean should, mistake on my part there. Tbh though, you're wrong, sorry, there really is no argument so it's my last post on the subject. Only thing that matters is balancing for the pro level game, because the reaosn you're losing is not imbalance, it's your lack of skill, while sometimes the reason pros lose is in fact imbalance.Whether or not the game is currently imbalanced is a different conversation. If you agree with that, great, convo is over, if you don't, great, convo is still over lol
That clearly isnt true. For one, pros play ladder just like you and me. When they lose on ladder, is it possibly imbalance? No? What about bo1 in tournys? Second, you have no way of knowing why a person loses. It could be from lack of skill but it could also be from an imbalance due to one race being easier than the other. You simply assume that balance never has anything to do with it which CLEARLY is false. To prove you wrong lets assume race x had an easy to execute allin which won you the game 95% of the time on ladder but which could be defended with a minimum of 200 apm; if defended the game evens out so that in the proscene (top tier tournaments) the winrates would be 50%. In your world that isnt a problem at all because hey the proscene is 50%. Well whoop di fucking do. It IS imbalanced and it SHOULD be fixed. Please stop rehashing blatant lies.
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see.
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On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see.
Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing.
On December 09 2013 06:11 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 03:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
Ad hominem's aren't changing the fact which you're trying to distract attention from: we were talking about the fact that professional terran players are struggling. There are literally no foreign terrans left who play competitively, no matter how good they were before. Good but not the best korean terrans such as Jjakji and MMA (both GSL winners, recent pre-nerf tournament highlights) are failing to win against foreigners, and getting smacked down by top level Z and P. ...and then you actually read the post I was responding to, which was a question as to why we should balance around pro levels of play rather than lower league levels. I directly commented on Doominator10's question, which is a question often asked. My god, between you and Snusmumriken, the one-track mind is practically unbearable. I made no comment on which race is better at the moment. I was explaining why it's more important to look at the pros than the noobs in relation to balancing the game. ffs if you guys are going to whine about everything irrelevant as a response to a completely different post, don't wonder why we stop explaining things to you people. Isn't there a Letting Off Steam thread that you can rage in, in spoilers? EDIT: Why do I even check this thread from time to time. Sigh. It's almost as bad as when Terrans were raging in a LR thread the other day about how Innovation (who decisively beat San in a series) didn't win fast enough. Christ. It's the funniest thing ever when some Terrans start to complain about how badly the Zergs and Protosses are complaining. Terran whine is quite OP. I'm done with this thread for now. Only makes me disappointed in people. My post was meant to do two things: a) call you out on your ad hominem. You didn't even try to defend yourself. b) Direct the conversation back on track, which had been distracted by ffaddicted, which led to Doominator10's question that you happily responded to, despite the fact that it was distracting from the conversation at hand, leading up to you attacking a straw-man, and saying that terrans merely whine, which you repeated again.
There was no ad hominem, because he was actually was strawmanning the conversation I was having with someone else. If you read the responses, you'd know that my comments spoke for themselves, were entirely different than what Snusmumriken jumped in with, and that what he said doesn't merit a response because it was a red herring and a strawman. He was debating something entirely different... a topic that he was separately complaining about, which I was not responding to.
You can call it whining, if you want, but the verdict won't be given for a while, but it's definitely a time to find the evidence for when the time is ripe to make a judgment. And the facts are troubling at best.
Well the verdict is apparently out sooner than you thought it'd be. And it is quite troubling for all of you Terran whiners. The idea that the game is balanced will surely keep you up at night, if you ever choose to acknowledge it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836
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On December 09 2013 06:32 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 06:24 RampancyTW wrote:On December 09 2013 05:47 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 04:34 ffadicted wrote:On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it. My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you shouldn't balance around pro level. Chill out. indeed you shouldnt. Most of us dont play professionally and this is a fucking game after all, we all payed for it so surely master and gm is important when it comes to balancing the game. You HAVE to balance around the professional level. Lower level players are lower level for various reasons. There's no way to "balance for lower levels" because players playing the game sub-optimally will not all be playing sub-optimally for the same or similar reasons. Balance tweaking for the lower levels might help some players, but hurt others even more in terms of lower-level "balance." Im not talking bronzeleague. Im talking master and grandmaster. Guess where pros are? Thats right, grandmaster. Seriously, enough with the strawmen. I clearly stated that gm and master is heavily scewed in favour of protoss so why the fuck are you talking about "lower levels". Nobodys been talking about lower levels! Again: If theres twice the amount of protoss than there are terran in gm and master which isnt explained by fewer terrans overall (it isnt) then that is a serious problem. It doesnt matter if the game is balanced in professional bo3s or not. Most people has never and never will play professionally in any shape or formand we fucking payed for the game, so surely we can demand the ladder to be fair; which clearly isnt the case when its twice as easy to reach gm or master with protoss compared to terran. It isn't a strawman. Even non-top pro players lose for reasons that clearly have nothing to do with balance. You simply can't balance for the top of the ladder, because they're still not good enough players to balance around. They'll all struggle with different things and different aspects of the game, and unless you can point to one universal issue (like with end of WoL BL/Infestor), you simply can't adjust balance properly for that level of play, because while it might improve the situation for some players, the balance tweaking might make it more "unfair" for others.
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On December 09 2013 06:24 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:47 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 04:34 ffadicted wrote:On December 09 2013 03:30 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 00:57 Doominator10 wrote:On December 09 2013 00:38 ffadicted wrote:
Due to the sheer amount of all-ins and hidden plays a toss can do, I'm willing to accept that it's probably the toughest race to play against in anonymous Bo1's on ladder, if that's what you guys want to hear lol
Luckily, pro play is where we should be looking to for balance, where the discrepancies are not anywhere close to that.
In the subject of foreigner terrans, we haven't had a legit threat since Jinro I feel Why would we look to pros for balance when the majority of people playing the game are not pros. Remember when 4Gate was one of the strongest all-ins on both ladder AND pros. Even if pros could hold it off, it was still frustrating a large portion of the players, so Blizz nerfed it. (I believe it was pylon radius and warp gate time). Because they have the highest mastery of game mechanics, which allows imbalances to be more easily pinned. There is more confounding at the lower levels, because if you look at diamond or gold players, the games they win or lose are often more due to their ability (or inability) to macro or make fewer fundamental errors. The balance of the game matters less in the lower leagues than it does in professional play, because everyone who sucks is necessarily less refined and needs to focus on basic mechanics first. Nerfing the widow mine and buffing the queen don't *really* matter that much in the grand scheme of things, in the bronze league. They can jump in the conversation when players have mastered not getting supply blocked. And gm being 40-44% protoss and about 20-24% terran says nothing of course either. Same story pretty much in masterleague. Stop fooling yourself, you play the ez ladder-race and you know it. My god, no one is saying anything about balance in terms of matchups, we're just talking about why you shouldn't balance around pro level. Chill out. indeed you shouldnt. Most of us dont play professionally and this is a fucking game after all, we all payed for it so surely master and gm is important when it comes to balancing the game. You HAVE to balance around the professional level. Lower level players are lower level for various reasons. There's no way to "balance for lower levels" because players playing the game sub-optimally will not all be playing sub-optimally for the same or similar reasons. Balance tweaking for the lower levels might help some players, but hurt others even more in terms of lower-level "balance."
Very well said. Right on the money.
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On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing.
Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal to protoss in overall representation. Terran is 29,32% in overall representation but only makes up 23,23% of gm while protoss being 31,24% makes up 44,47% of gm.
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On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced?
Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation.
Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing.
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On December 09 2013 05:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
My god, between you and Snusmumriken, the one-track mind is practically unbearable.
There were no ad hominem's, that's a joke.
On the other hand, thank you for linking the statistics. It's definitely interesting, and exactly the kind of content that makes this discussion worth having. On the other hand, the statistics is not nearly conclusive, and definitely not discussion ending as you make it up to be. To see why the current statistics aren't enough, just look at the numbers. In PvT, there are 286 post-patch games. And more than a third come from the online Acer Teamstory Cup 2 (35%, or exactly 100 games). Why does this matter? Because Taeja's 4 wins over Protoss at Dreamhack Winter make up over a percentage point of the whole Terran win rate. That's insane variance. Innovation beating San 3-0 also added a whole percentage point. When the sample size is so small, a showmatch tomorrow which a P wins against a T 4-0 would shift balance by a percentage point. It makes no point to talk about statistics if they can change in an hour.
Furthermore, as it's mostly Acer Teamstory Cup 2 games, there are a ton of games like where Taeja beats Quantic Gaming Protosses like Venus and Try. It's just not representative of the highest level.
As I have been saying in this thread, we won't know the effect of the last patch until a few months from now, when the big tournaments kick off again and give us enough Korean v Korean games to look at, this is especially true because players need some time to practice the new strategies that have become available.
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On December 09 2013 07:51 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:45 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 09 2013 07:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 09 2013 06:54 Snusmumriken wrote:
The only clear measurement of imbalance on ladder would be unequal race-representation in the higher leagues. Which, to no ones surprise im sure, is just what we see. Unless, of course, there were other reasons why people would pick one race over the other besides "This race lets me win the most". But I suppose master level players can't play for fun, right? And choosing a race that you deem more interesting would be out of the picture too? Over-representation of Race X =/= Overpowered Race X. Race X would be overpowered if it consistently beats Race Y a significant percentage time more, and at the peak levels of play where there is less variation and fundamental confounding variables. Which is something we do not see ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437836 ). Data is a beautiful thing. Except its already been demonstrated that terran is underrepresented in the higher leagues whilst being fairly equal in overall representation. Youre not fooling anyone. So what happens if you tweak balance to improve representation in GM and top Terran winrates vP and vZ skyrocket to 60% percent? Just leave it as-is because GM is balanced? Eventually players would start switch to T because of the imbalance at the top level, regardless of GM representation, and so the pendulum would swing towards Terran over-representation. Unequal representation can be a symptom of an imbalanced game, but if things are balanced at the top level, it means pretty much nothing.
I dont give a fucking shit about the pro scene. I didnt pay for this game for pros to play a balanced game, I payed for it so that I could play a balanced and FUN game. Given that protoss has literally 20 earlygame options where terran has literally 2 doesnt make for an enjoyable experience, and anyone with a brain realizes that.
Were already seeing pros switching to protoss and foreign terrans having zero impact, but surely that is just a coincidence just like its a coincidence that gm is 44% protoss and 23% terran.
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EPT
