EPTeven when zerg players were whining 24/7 they were still winning every other gsl...
look at protoss at the moment in gsl... this is depressing.
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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 74
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UnholyRai
720 Posts
even when zerg players were whining 24/7 they were still winning every other gsl... look at protoss at the moment in gsl... this is depressing. User was warned for this post | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
On September 07 2011 22:54 acidfreak wrote: I can say the same thing about Nestea playing terran/protoss and becoming so imba he would not lose a single game for the rest of his career, lol. Both my statement and yours are incorrect and delusional. And ihmo MC without forcefields would be nowhere near the MC we know today ^^ Protosses are going downhill, I think its bullshit to even suggest that the stats are lies and has all to do with the Protoss players.. Players can only do as much as their race will let them and that is why every GSL has seen a decrease in Protoss players and depending on results tommorrow we could see a lot worse incoming for the protoss race. [\BTW This was in reference to the edited post as I only answered to the orginal] Problem is the fix, the is nothing that they can really do to buff Protoss without destroying another matchup, im just hoping Protoss arent stuck like this till HOTS.  And something is figuired out as our timing attacks have pretty much all be found out long time ago. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
1. 1-1-1 is a new build (ofc it could be broken, but that's TvP and I'm the one who's giving the Zerg tears here - tldr, i dont care about tvp) 2. The people who are Protoss in Aug GSL - Besides MC, the other Protosses are just pretty... bad. Huk and Naniwa are clearly more competitive for Code S than, say, Idra for Z or Sjow for T. I mean both Anypro and Hongun have no idea what a third base is, and make 10 gateways (on top of robo, twilight, etc) on 2 base when their macro inevitably slips, like they always do. Compare Anypro or Hongun to say, Losira or Bomber, the 2nd best of the other races. I hate to say it, but Anypro and Hongun, and Trickster, are just not near the same caliber of MVP, or Polt, or TOP, etc. Like they aren't half the player of Nada or a dozen other Z/T I could name, that are doing just fine. I mean just watch Anypro or Hongun macro - they are atrocious. These guys play an outdated 2 base style and don't know what macro is. Alicia seems pretty good, but in this season he lost to + Show Spoiler + to Leenock in basically a build order loss - he opened DTs, failed to damage so was far behind but not quite out yet, but instead of going with chargelots or HT, he went with blink stalkers... against ling/infestor. In short, Alicia took a gamble going blink stalkers, and suffered a BO loss against a Zerg who's been known to favor infestors before even the patch 3. FFE is now being hard 'countered' by the so popular super fast third base. We even saw Losira hold a 6 gate +1 all in on a relatively small map doing this, and other Zergs hold DT and SG, and now every Zerg knows it's safe. It's just a metagame shift, just as Protoss began to win more games when 3 gate sentry expand first came out, just when FFE became popular. Straight up, that's probably the biggest reason for skewed stats. The majority of the games this season, P goes FFE, and Z takes a fast third, and always holds. There hasn't been any 1 base play from Protoss this season - which admittedly is cheesy, but it hasn't been 'figured out' so hardcore like FFE has. 4. Stargate play. 2 months ago MC implied it was 'imba imba' (to the guy who said "lol who thinks mc was serious', I don't know, he has said it multiple times that SG is imba, he always uses it in every matchup, every game, so someone thinks it's good), and this month every Zerg has not only figured out how to handle SG play, but how to scout for it, how to deal with it, and 3 very important things: 1. How to handle it without hydras 2. How to not only defend from it, but use it as a way to come out ahead and 'counter' it by droning up 3. How to take a third base against it Protoss had some neat wins and was doing fine the last 2 months, and this month they've been hit hard by Zerg figuring out what they are doing, and that both FFE and stargate had serious vulnerabilities. It could have been more 'balanced' if just FFE was figured this month, and SG next month, but Zerg just happened to figure both out at the same time (and at the same time as T going 1-1-1). Just watch any ZvP this season. The games ALWAYS go like this: 1. Protoss goes FFE, Zerg takes fast third, Zerg holds P aggression, then overwhelms P with just everything and denies their 3rd (if not killing them outright) 2. Protoss goes SG or DT, Zerg holds (i dont think a single Zerg this season lost a hatch to a SG or DT, even a morphing third, and I don't think a single Zerg lost more than 5 drones to SG/DT, and I don't think a single Zerg lost more than 1 queen before having lair antiair set up) and still takes a third base against it, doing exactly what Protoss was trying to prevent (a third). 3. Protoss does a normal gateway expand, but falls behind due to failed SG/DT. Zerg gets a fast third, same as 2 occurs. What DOES NOT happen, is: 1. Protoss ever taking a third base. In any game 2. Protoss killing or denying a hatchery with SG/DT. 3. Protoss surprising Zerg with no evo chamber/lair with SG/DT. 4. Protoss going robo before SG or Twilight (ie playing macro or 'normal', but rather harass and failing at it) 5. A ZvP going into end-game 6. There was only a single game where Infestors were a factor (and even then, roach/ling would have won since the P opened DTs, failed, and Z had his fast third up for a long time by then) 7. Hive tech ever occuring 8. More than 2 colossi made 9. HT So don't cry about Protoss being UP to Zerg, because if all the games are lost against hatch tech, then it's not an issue of balance but a metagame one. The failure of SG openings this season is like Zerg going 6 pool, and then losing in a macro game. Maybe it's not that all-in, but P is definitely far behind when their stargate play is basically blind countered, without hydras, and by taking a fast third and droning up. From there it's pretty much Zerg just has to avoid fucking up colossally. In fact, I guarantee I could beat any player here if you open DT and you tell me at the start of the game. It just leaves you too far behind. And oh, there was that game where the (arguably) 2nd best korean Protoss in the GSL lost to a 6 pool to July. Like... who loses to 6pool? In a macro game? You're telling me that MVP or Nestea would ever lose to a 6 pool? And then Inca, probably the 2nd best korean protoss, got smashed by super fast thirds and the strange style of DRG (didn't he win or place very very high in MLG?). | ||
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tzenes
Canada64 Posts
On September 08 2011 00:32 Belial88 wrote: Did you guys even watch the GSL games? You are complaining about the Protoss win rates in the August GSL, but you do recall that: 1. 1-1-1 is a new build (ofc it could be broken, but that's TvP and I'm the one who's giving the Zerg tears here - tldr, i dont care about tvp) Wait, what? Then what 1-1-1 build have I been seeing for the last year? Could you clarify this statement? In what way is 1-1-1 a "new build?" How is it substantially different from the 1-1-1 3 months ago? 6 months ago? 12 months ago? I realize the emphasis on air has waned over the year, but it doesn't seem to be a substantially different built. It looks like the same defensive/aggressive quick tech switch that I was watching players like TLO use back in beta... Am I missing something? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
btw MC did say "Phoenix soggy soggy do" at Dreamhack. He also said it in english, "Phoenix imba imba". His words. I don't think SG is imba at all, and according to this season's GSL, I think only Protoss feel it's that good. | ||
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tzenes
Canada64 Posts
On September 08 2011 00:47 Belial88 wrote: ^ Yes, you are missing something. I'm not Terran, I'm Zerg, and it's specifically a TvP build. It's a variation that's extremely aggressive, involving, at it's core, siege tanks and banshees (its marine/siegetank/banshee with either raven, cloak, or expo). Don't ask me, I don't watch TvP. So, you still sound like you're talking about the same build I've been seeing for a very long time. Originally it gained popularity as a TvT build using Vikings for sight to boost Seige Tank range, and Marines for support, but it allowed for quick tech switches or openings as Banshees, or Raven PPD timing pushes. I've been seeing this build in TvZ, TvP and TvT pretty much since beta. So, it's very strange to me when you call it a "new build." Perhaps, what's really gone on here is a shift in the Protoss compositions that's allowing for greater success in an air-centric support role in the TvP metagame that has caused a shift from the more traditional BioMech builds that dominated TvP for a long time? | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On September 08 2011 00:47 Belial88 wrote: ^ Yes, you are missing something. I'm not Terran, I'm Zerg, and it's specifically a TvP build. It's a variation that's extremely aggressive, involving, at it's core, siege tanks and banshees (its marine/siegetank/banshee with either raven, cloak, or expo). Don't ask me, I don't watch TvP. btw MC did say "Phoenix soggy soggy do" at Dreamhack. He also said it in english, "Phoenix imba imba". His words. I don't think SG is imba at all, and according to this season's GSL, I think only Protoss feel it's that good. MC was joking when he said that phoenix were imba. He was just happy to show entertaining games to people. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 07 2011 22:54 acidfreak wrote: I can say the same thing about Nestea playing terran/protoss and becoming so imba he would not lose a single game for the rest of his career, lol. Both my statement and yours are incorrect and delusional. And ihmo MC without forcefields would be nowhere near the MC we know today ^^ Haha this guy is baiting so hard. It's time for Protoss to l2p right? All their "abusive" stuff is finally catching up with them. lol... | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On September 08 2011 00:53 tzenes wrote: So, you still sound like you're talking about the same build I've been seeing for a very long time. Originally it gained popularity as a TvT build using Vikings for sight to boost Seige Tank range, and Marines for support, but it allowed for quick tech switches or openings as Banshees, or Raven PPD timing pushes. I've been seeing this build in TvZ, TvP and TvT pretty much since beta. So, it's very strange to me when you call it a "new build." Perhaps, what's really gone on here is a shift in the Protoss compositions that's allowing for greater success in an air-centric support role in the TvP metagame that has caused a shift from the more traditional BioMech builds that dominated TvP for a long time? nope simply put, zerg/terran whined enough about the old void rays/WP research for blizzard to nerf them which were the only way to punish a 1/1/1 terran. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 08 2011 00:47 Belial88 wrote: ^ Yes, you are missing something. I'm not Terran, I'm Zerg, and it's specifically a TvP build. It's a variation that's extremely aggressive, involving, at it's core, siege tanks and banshees (its marine/siegetank/banshee with either raven, cloak, or expo). Don't ask me, I don't watch TvP. btw MC did say "Phoenix soggy soggy do" at Dreamhack. He also said it in english, "Phoenix imba imba". His words. I don't think SG is imba at all, and according to this season's GSL, I think only Protoss feel it's that good. How smart of you to quote a non-english speaker who is notorious for joking around in broken english for the sake of entertainment. Other MC quotes: "uoowahh! Huk amazing control! Top 3 ye ye" "Bunker repair imba!!!!" "you know.. EMP imba!' "Penix Imba!!" "Marine dance Imba!" The list goes on. If you try to extract any meaningful information here that can be used for balance discussion, you're probably the same guy that picks up tabloids to keep updated on the news. | ||
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tzenes
Canada64 Posts
On September 08 2011 00:58 sekritzzz wrote: nope simply put, zerg/terran whined enough about the old void rays/WP research for blizzard to nerf them which were the only way to punish a 1/1/1 terran. So, I'd define that as a change in the composition, but I'm not sure how the Void Ray countered 1-1-1. I actually don't remember VR being part of the classic Protoss deathball. It was traditionally Zealot/Stalker/Colossus transition into HT. There were variations which opened VR/Phoenix, but the deathball largely stayed the same. However, one thing that did change was the Warpgate timings. With the extra 20 seconds in Warpgate research and the faster Sentries we saw a later early push by Protoss, with a heavier focus on Sentries. As a result the 1-1-1 timing push is coming at a different point than it used to. I think if you track the success of TvP's 1-1-1 you'll see it only really takes off after this change (though there was some usage of it prior to that). The build itself isn't any more broken than it's always been, it's just hitting a weaker Protoss army to set up a more Terran dominate mid game. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:10 tzenes wrote: So, I'd define that as a change in the composition, but I'm not sure how the Void Ray countered 1-1-1. I actually don't remember VR being part of the classic Protoss deathball. It was traditionally Zealot/Stalker/Colossus transition into HT. There were variations which opened VR/Phoenix, but the deathball largely stayed the same. However, one thing that did change was the Warpgate timings. With the extra 20 seconds in Warpgate research and the faster Sentries we saw a later early push by Protoss, with a heavier focus on Sentries. As a result the 1-1-1 timing push is coming at a different point than it used to. I think if you track the success of TvP's 1-1-1 you'll see it only really takes off after this change (though there was some usage of it prior to that). The build itself isn't any more broken than it's always been, it's just hitting a weaker Protoss army to set up a more Terran dominate mid game. uhm... "protoss deathball" does not exist at the 9:45 mark when 1/1/1 hits o_o. You dont have storm or thermal lance, let alone more than 1 collusus. Void rays used to shut down 1/1/1 before because it used to a viable opening vs terran (not even all in). You basically harass them with void rays that demolish buildings and if they decided to go 1/1/1 they would just die to it outright even though its not all-in. With the damage nerf it kind of rendered the void ray opening useless. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:16 sekritzzz wrote: uhm... "protoss deathball" does not exist at the 9:45 mark when 1/1/1 hits o_o. You dont have storm or thermal lance, let alone more than 1 collusus. Void rays used to shut down 1/1/1 before because it used to a viable opening vs terran (not even all in). You basically harass them with void rays that demolish buildings and if they decided to go 1/1/1 they would just die to it outright even though its not all-in. With the damage nerf it kind of rendered the void ray opening useless. A good 1-1-1 hits earlier than 9:45. | ||
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tzenes
Canada64 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:16 sekritzzz wrote: uhm... "protoss deathball" does not exist at the 9:45 mark when 1/1/1 hits o_o. You dont have storm or thermal lance, let alone more than 1 collusus. Void rays used to shut down 1/1/1 before because it used to a viable opening vs terran (not even all in). You basically harass them with void rays that demolish buildings and if they decided to go 1/1/1 they would just die to it outright even though its not all-in. With the damage nerf it kind of rendered the void ray opening useless. I was actually referring the the ~6minute timing push. If you go over to the 1-1-1 thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257589 ) you'll see the major complaint is: Protoss player they can't pump out enough units to hold off 1/1/1 rush ... Q : You can engage in Terran army before they contain you and hold it off A : Very true, but then the second wave is impossible to hold off. They will be able to upto three waves with Marines + Banshees (or Tanks but Banshees are often used) from their main. The major issues being the first push around 6minutes and the follow up. Previously, Protoss players had their Warpgate tech 20 seconds earlier and thus a larger force in these time periods which allowed them to transition into the classic Protoss deathball. However, with the Warpgate tech research change they are weaker on these two pushes ultimately resolving into collapse or a Terran dominate mid-game. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Straight up, that's probably the biggest reason for skewed stats. The majority of the games this season, P goes FFE, and Z takes a fast third, and always holds. There hasn't been any 1 base play from Protoss this season - which admittedly is cheesy, but it hasn't been 'figured out' so hardcore like FFE has. That's true, in fact there was one one base play actually, a 4 gates which sent Losira to the up and down matches. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:24 MrCon wrote: That's true, in fact there was one one base play actually, a 4 gates which sent Losira to the up and down matches. Come to think about --- when is the last time Protoss one-based at all? (excluding Genius vs Losira) | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:42 QTIP. wrote: Come to think about --- when is the last time Protoss one-based at all? (excluding Genius vs Losira) I can't remember one in the GSL (in foreigner tourneys either in fact) | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:47 MrCon wrote: I can't remember one in the GSL (in foreigner tourneys either in fact) That's pretty strange. I can't remember any either. | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:52 QTIP. wrote: That's pretty strange. I can't remember any either. Genius also won against his T opponent in Ro16 with 2 void ray allins iirc, and HongUn got a triple kill in the GSTL with 3 allins, 2 of them off 1 base. | ||
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