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On September 07 2011 09:26 templar rage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 06:45 Jimbo77 wrote:Well, grey area... that's already good. You begin to understand that there is no clear border. Now - "I don't understand how anyone could possibly take your position"... So, it's you who don't understand? Or really there is none who can take my changes seriously? Be honest. Do you really think there is none who think infestors is imba at now? Don't deceive yourself.  You're either really good at twisting words or just really bad with reading comprehension. I said there is no clear border between "legitimate change" (whatever that means) and "too much of a nerf". Just because they're a gray area doesn't mean a proposed change can't be clearly one or the other. In your case, I (and probably everyone else) think that it's clearly an over-nerf. No one is going to take your changes seriously because they're so insane. As for not understanding your position, the combination of you wanting such drastic changes and claiming to have no problem dealing with Infestors does not make sense. People just don't say "Oh, kiting roaches with marauders is easy. Let's make concussive shell a permanent effect to make it even easier". That's essentially what your position is saying. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Really, do you? I say something, then you say something completely unrelated and somehow think that it's relevant. Do I really think there are none who think Infestors are imbalanced? Of course not, and exhibit A is yourself. How is that relevant? I'm not going to continue to bang my head against the wall that is your thick skull. If you can't see how bad your changes are, then I don't know what to say. You say it's obvious to everyone but Blizzard and Zergs that you're right? Well, in reality, it's obvious to everyone but you that you're FOS.
Well man, why are you so angry? ...
Let's be honest, i have some propositions against which you are against. You just say "it's bad because it is". You say it would ruined the whole spell... Did you try it? Really? You say that none but me would agree with these changes. But just i do know 5 people who agree with these ones. Should i continue? How can you talk on behalf the whole SC2 world?
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On September 07 2011 09:33 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 09:29 templar rage wrote:
My opinion on the matter is to make the range on all the spells of those units the same.
Ghosts HTs and Infestors already have the same range. But that doesn't work because EMP(a mana drain) is AOE so it gets an effective range of +1 because of the aoe. Storm and Fungal get the same benifit. 9 casting range 10 effective range.
Please make sure your information is correct before posting. Snipe and EMP both have a range of 10.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ghost
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On September 07 2011 05:24 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 05:09 Belial88 wrote:
And HT is not that bad, since it gives you twilight tech to fall back on. And we see plenty of protoss go chargelot/Archon when HT aren't viable, which smashes roach/hydra. It also owns mutas. So really, HT are only weak against roaches, but blink is very strong against roaches, and it's not hard to figure out if Zerg is making roaches or not. Even then, immortal/HT is a great combo for stomping roaches. Ok, just ignore my earlier post. I don't think there's any point in trying to discuss this with you any longer.
You don't need to be an asshole. There's actually a specific "Zealot/Archon PvZ Guide" thread written by a high level Protoss who said, and provided replays, of how chargelot/archon owns roach/hydra.
And then, there's also personal experience. But nevermind I'm in Masters, after all, I can attest that most Master players are pretty bad.
Also, zealots rape hydras. It's not really possible to kite with hydras off creep, and things like FF and charge make zealots actually engaging the hydras a very real possibility. Archons also own hydras.
edit: here's the thread. It's a blue saying that roach/hydra gets owned by archon/zealot by the way
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222782
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On September 07 2011 13:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 05:24 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 05:09 Belial88 wrote:
And HT is not that bad, since it gives you twilight tech to fall back on. And we see plenty of protoss go chargelot/Archon when HT aren't viable, which smashes roach/hydra. It also owns mutas. So really, HT are only weak against roaches, but blink is very strong against roaches, and it's not hard to figure out if Zerg is making roaches or not. Even then, immortal/HT is a great combo for stomping roaches. Ok, just ignore my earlier post. I don't think there's any point in trying to discuss this with you any longer. You don't need to be an asshole. There's actually a specific "Zealot/Archon PvZ Guide" thread written by a high level Protoss who said, and provided replays, of how chargelot/archon owns roach/hydra. And then, there's also personal experience. But nevermind I'm in Masters, after all, I can attest that most Master players are pretty bad. Also, zealots rape hydras. It's not really possible to kite with hydras off creep, and things like FF and charge make zealots actually engaging the hydras a very real possibility. Archons also own hydras.
It isn't the hydras that we're worried about (who the hell goes roach/hydra now anyway?). It's the fact that roaches, by themselves, roll straight through zealot/archon.
Zealot/archon is a gimmicky build designed to punish certain zergling-heavy openings. It isn't supposed to compete against standard roach-based plays.
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On September 07 2011 07:03 Hikari wrote:
My opinion of mules:
- Necessary to terran early game economy, esp before full mineral saturation.
- They offer a unique "investment" option for terrans. You feel slightly ahead, but not by much? Build an extra CC and turn it into an OC. 2.5 mules late you regained your investment and every extra mule become pure profit - with the added benefit of extra scv production (think of it as investing 550 for constant CB on probes ~ investment comes back in 3 minutes later)
- Very late game they allow terran to "live off" mules: leaving behind only maybe 12 scvs for gas = bigger army, but these situations 30 minutes into the game can be quite rare and unique.
- There is a tactical aspect to mules: you can save them up and float an OC over to a gold and spam mules. The gold will be depleted in record times. In combination of the "investment OC" option, this is a very strong economical benefit.
I've always thought that giving the OC a MULE range (like 9) would be a good fix. Terran can still use MULEs just as much in the early/mid game, the only difference is that they have to use them at the base the OC is at. (e.g. instead of going to base #2 and using 2 MULEs, they'll have to use 1 MULE at base #1 and 1 MULE at base #2. Minor inconvenience, but I assure you still nowhere as near as bad as larva injecting.)
So what does that do? That helps take out the imbalance of dumping insane MULEs from all your OCs at a gold. AND the imbalance of taking a gold with a PF then dumping MULEs from other OCs there. AND the imbalance of floating to an island and dumping MULEs there.
BTW, if your main runs you, you can always float that OC to another mining base to get double MULEs. Or, you can keep the OC there and have that as your designated scan base.
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I'm starting to lose hope in this game. It is ridiculous that only zergs and terrans do well in GSL Code S...
Hopefully hots looks more promising for protoss.
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On August 16 2011 07:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels. Edit: Holy frick i ALWAYS thought it was 9 range! so they have even slightly more of an edge over HT (like they're supposed to as soft to hard counters in TvP) and actually outrange Neural/fungals o.o wow didn't know Edit2: Anyways, I honestly think the 1/1/1 push is fine, yeah sure it's a bit hard but these days most pros are going for economic builds as Protoss anyways aren't they?
Well i don't necessarily agree with the analisys. Ok you have 1 more range but in your example it seems liek you're sending in ghosts to the front line while HT are usually in the back so in a big engagement i'm not sure this edge would be of any benefit. Your ghost would be in range of other units before doing anything if we consider a straight line, head to head battle. If we consistently saw EMP going off before storm from the Pros then i'd say you have an argument but to my knowledge that's not the case.
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On September 07 2011 18:45 darkness wrote:
I'm starting to lose hope in this game. It is ridiculous that only zergs and terrans do well in GSL Code S...
Hopefully hots looks more promising for protoss.
It used to be that Zergs did very poorly until people played them better. maybe this is happening to Protoss and maybe it will happen to Terran someday. Remember how long it took BW to be balanced. SC2 has been out for little more than a year. Maybe you're right, I'm only Plat and so at my level saying something is imba is pretentious.
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Protoss in GSL August has a fabulous winrate of 31,3% (20-44), being 16-31 (34%) versus Terran and 4-13 (23,5%) versus Zerg. I think that speaks volumes for itself.
Edit: TvZ is at 54,2% with 32-27, for anyone interested.
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On September 07 2011 21:27 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Protoss in GSL August has a fabulous winrate of 31,3% (20-44), being 16-31 (34%) versus Terran and 4-13 (23,5%) versus Zerg. I think that speaks volumes for itself.
What? Is that true?
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I cant believe the decline of Protpsses in GSL.
In may GSL the is only 10 Protoss in CODE S nearly a third of particpants.
In July GSL the is 9 Protoss.
In August GSL the is 8 Protoss.
And in Ausust GSl poss maybe spoilers in a way..
+ Show Spoiler +In The coming October GSl the is currently 5 Protosses with the last up and down having two more protosses if they both win. So my bet is that both protosses will win to keep up the pattern of only losing one protoss per Tournament!!!
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On September 07 2011 20:12 Flix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 18:45 darkness wrote:
I'm starting to lose hope in this game. It is ridiculous that only zergs and terrans do well in GSL Code S...
Hopefully hots looks more promising for protoss. It used to be that Zergs did very poorly until people played them better. maybe this is happening to Protoss and maybe it will happen to Terran someday. Remember how long it took BW to be balanced. SC2 has been out for little more than a year. Maybe you're right, I'm only Plat and so at my level saying something is imba is pretentious.
Zerg got buffed multiple times while terran and protoss got nerfed multiple times...
Why keep Zergs acting as if they somehow magically figured everything out?
there were the roach range increase, the corrupter energy removal and of course the infestor buffs.
first just making fungal preventing blink, then the other one with the increased dmg.
not to mention the other races nerfs...
multiple number changing of some key units, be it speed changes, build time changes ,research time increases, dmg changes and lets not forget the removal of several key upgrades...
and some of this balance changes in favour of zerg were introduced while actually 2 zergs won the very first 2 GSLs.
but yeah, Zergs did figure it out all by themselves.
People would start to hijack blizzard employes if protoss or terran would actually receive buffs while winning the biggest tournament twice in a row.
just sayin'
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On September 07 2011 18:45 darkness wrote:
I'm starting to lose hope in this game. It is ridiculous that only zergs and terrans do well in GSL Code S...
Hopefully hots looks more promising for protoss.
If you are going by just numbers in the GSL zergs are not much better then P right now. They are going to have maybe 1, 2 at max more players in GSL Code S next season.
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On September 07 2011 21:27 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Protoss in GSL August has a fabulous winrate of 31,3% (20-44), being 16-31 (34%) versus Terran and 4-13 (23,5%) versus Zerg. I think that speaks volumes for itself.
Edit: TvZ is at 54,2% with 32-27, for anyone interested.
Omg... I was hoping it wasn't that bad. This is getting depressing.
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On September 07 2011 21:27 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Protoss in GSL August has a fabulous winrate of 31,3% (20-44), being 16-31 (34%) versus Terran and 4-13 (23,5%) versus Zerg. I think that speaks volumes for itself.
You speak as there are perfect robots with no other variable than the race that are playing in the GSL. Stop and look at the players, then dump statistics.
Tosses, especially in the GSL were used to doing abusive warpgate stuff, because it won them games. Now that multiple changes have affected the gateway units, they are not as good with the strategies they have to use in order to win, and when everyone else is top-world skilled in the race they are playing having to use a strategy you have not trained to perfection will net you losses.
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On September 07 2011 22:43 acidfreak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 21:27 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Protoss in GSL August has a fabulous winrate of 31,3% (20-44), being 16-31 (34%) versus Terran and 4-13 (23,5%) versus Zerg. I think that speaks volumes for itself.
You speak as there are perfect robots with no other variable than the race that are playing in the GSL. Stop and look at the players, then dump statistics.
Id love to see MC play Terran or Zerg.... Terran especially. Then show everyone how broken protosses are, they actually have to play extrememly well to win a game with no room for any errors.
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On September 07 2011 22:50 Tommylew wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 22:43 acidfreak wrote:On September 07 2011 21:27 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Protoss in GSL August has a fabulous winrate of 31,3% (20-44), being 16-31 (34%) versus Terran and 4-13 (23,5%) versus Zerg. I think that speaks volumes for itself.
You speak as there are perfect robots with no other variable than the race that are playing in the GSL. Stop and look at the players, then dump statistics. Id love to see MC play Terran or Zerg.... Terran especially. Then show everyone how broken protosses are, they actually have to play extrememly well to win a game with no room for any errors.
I can say the same thing about Nestea playing terran/protoss and becoming so imba he would not lose a single game for the rest of his career, lol. Both my statement and yours are incorrect and delusional. And ihmo MC without forcefields would be nowhere near the MC we know today ^^
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EPT
