EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 75
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oni_link
Germany165 Posts
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
TvZ : 25-37 = 40% TvP : 42-57 = 42% PvZ : 42-49 = 41% | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:20 MrCon wrote: Winrates of GSL code A qualifiers : (numbers from liquipedia) TvZ : 25-37 = 40% TvP : 42-57 = 42% PvZ : 42-49 = 41% Yup - some Protoss actually qualified this time! ^_^ | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:37 QTIP. wrote: Yup - some Protoss actually qualified this time! ^_^ Fun fact, Terran has more players in Code S than Protoss has in Code S and A combined  | ||
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merlin101
Switzerland194 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:39 Dommk wrote: Fun fact, Terran has more players in Code S than Protoss has in Code S and A combined So what? There are more Terrans than Protoss and Zerg! Fun fact: Sample Size is waaay to small! | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:49 merlin101 wrote: So what? There are more Terrans than Protoss and Zerg! Fun fact: Sample Size is waaay to small! it's actually not. someone did an R-analysis of it over on the Bnet forums and the confidence interval is still way in favour of protoss being underpowered. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:49 merlin101 wrote: So what? There are more Terrans than Protoss and Zerg! Fun fact: Sample Size is waaay to small! GSL August, winrate of 31,3% (20-44), being 16-31 (34%) versus Terran and 4-13 (23,5%) versus Zerg. This is also a coincidence right? We all must be delusional! C'mon please have some dignity and accept the facts xD | ||
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ShootingStars
1475 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:53 Salteador Neo wrote: GSL August, winrate of 31,3% (20-44), being 16-31 (34%) versus Terran and 4-13 (23,5%) versus Zerg. This is also a coincidence right? We all must be delusional! C'mon please have some dignity and accept the facts xD To be honest, Protoss players need to stop whining. Hongun, Trickster, Inca, Choya, ... you see how bad they all are? Your only good Protoss is MC. When he starts owning you all look so stupid for whin- Wait what??? MC to Code A? Anyway...like I was saying. MC is bad. He got stomped and he is slumping because he is too cocky. There are no good Protoss players -- you guys have been so abusive for so long and now you've been figured out. Seriously.. l2p. / sarcasm | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:59 QTIP. wrote: To be honest, Protoss players need to stop whining. Hongun, Trickster, Inca, Choya, ... you see how bad they all are? Your only good Protoss is MC. When he starts owning you all look so stupid for whin- Wait what??? MC to Code A? Anyway...like I was saying. MC is bad. He got stomped and he is slumping because he is too cocky. There are no good Protoss players -- you guys have been so abusive for so long and now you've been figured out. Seriously.. l2p. / sarcasm Not bad sarcasm  I'm sure MC would still be in Code S if he wasn't so manly. You know he's so manly because he picked MVP and Polt for his group. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:59 QTIP. wrote: To be honest, Protoss players need to stop whining. Hongun, Trickster, Inca, Choya, ... you see how bad they all are? Your only good Protoss is MC. When he starts owning you all look so stupid for whin- Wait what??? MC to Code A? Anyway...like I was saying. MC is bad. He got stomped and he is slumping because he is too cocky. There are no good Protoss players -- you guys have been so abusive for so long and now you've been figured out. Seriously.. l2p. / sarcasm There's this amusing trend in GSL LR threads, where, should a Protoss player lose (most often happens when they get 1 base all-ind by Terran), you instantly read about how that particular Protoss player was never good, only had success with cheese, and that Protosses should wait for Protoss player X (who conveniently hasn't played yet), because he's actually really skilled, and will no doubt show them the way. People were actually willing to say HuK was better than MC in order to support this ridiculous reasoning. Or that Genius was the best Protoss in the world. A cognitive psychologist would have a field day with our LR threads, they're a goldmine of confirmation bias examples. | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:49 merlin101 wrote: So what? There are more Terrans than Protoss and Zerg! Fun fact: Sample Size is waaay to small! Out of 64 players (code A + code S), half of them are terrans. The sample size is more than enough to be almost certain there is either an imbalance or a biased in the sample (i.e. terran players are more skilled). From a statistic point of view, saying the sample size isn't large enough is irrelevant. Now, of course you can argue the terran players are better. There is no reason for it to be the case, but nobody can prove the contrary. I personnaly believe that terran players in general are much less skilled than the other races. And the argument for it is quite simple: you improve more when you loose/struggle. Terran have been dominating since the beginning, so in term of strategy they must have fell far behind the other races. And there are signs of this. For instance, at MLG people just realized how strong blue flame helions were, some people even said they were imbalance (which Blizzard apparently agreed). But blue flame helions have been here since the beginning, how comes it took 1 year to realize it ? Well the answer is simple, terran players had plenty of other strategies enabling them to win, so their skills/strategies improved slowly. Same thing can be said about 1/1/1. And, it's not the end, I'm sure there are plenty of other stong build terrans haven't figured out because they are already winning with non-optimal strategies. Anyone just said ghosts ? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I agree that MC is a good player. I think that in LR threads people get caught up in the heat of the moment (a lot) and say things that aren't necessarily accurate, or maybe don't even reflect their opinions when they sit and think about something. + Show Spoiler [i'm a moron] + On September 08 2011 03:15 Toadvine wrote: There's this amusing trend in GSL LR threads, where, should a Protoss player lose (most often happens when they get 1 base all-ind by Terran), you instantly read about how that particular Protoss player was never good, only had success with cheese, and that Protosses should wait for Protoss player X (who conveniently hasn't played yet), because he's actually really skilled, and will no doubt show them the way. People were actually willing to say HuK was better than MC in order to support this ridiculous reasoning. Or that Genius was the best Protoss in the world. A cognitive psychologist would have a field day with our LR threads, they're a goldmine of confirmation bias examples. I disagree; I think MC is a better or as good player as HuK. He has enormous experience playing in Code S, and I'm sure his stint in Code A will be very short. He's an excellent player-- and so is HuK-- but I see his being sent to the up/downs and Code A as more of a fluke than an accurate representation of his skill. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:17 Elean wrote: Out of 64 players (code A + code S), half of them are terrans. The sample size is more than enough to be almost certain there is either an imbalance or a biased in the sample (i.e. terran players are more skilled). From a statistic point of view, saying the sample size isn't large enough is irrelevant. Now, of course you can argue the terran players are better. There is no reason for it to be the case, but nobody can prove the contrary. I personnaly believe that terran players in general are much less skilled than the other races. And the argument for it is quite simple: you improve more when you loose/struggle. Terran have been dominating since the beginning, so in term of strategy they must have fell far behind the other races. And there are signs of this. For instance, at MLG people just realized how strong blue flame were, some people said there even were imbalance (which Blizzard apparently agreed). But blue flame helions have been here since the beginning, how comes it took 1 year to realize it ? Well the answer is simple, terran had plenty of other strategies enabling them to win, so their skills/strategies improved slowly. Same thing can be said about 1/1/1. And, it's not the end, I'm sure there are plenty of other stong build terrans haven't figured out because they are already winning with non-optimal strategies. Anyone just said ghosts ? Did the test involve using t-test? Or what? The problem is that if you can't test this like you test a coin (with p = 1/3), because we don't expect 1/3 of the GSL to be Terran. Our expectation is that the ratio of Terran:Total in the GSL is equal to the ratio of Terran:Total in either Korea, Pro-Gaming Teams, or the World (depending on what you want to use - personally, I'd use Pro-Gaming teams). I don't have the ratio but if half of the players on Pro teams in Korea played Terran, then we'd expect 1/2 to be Terran. EDIT: But yes, if we could find evidence to suggest that our hypothesis should be that p = 1/3, then we could very easily say that there is virtually no possible chance that Terran isn't OP. | ||
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templar rage
United States2509 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:00 oni_link wrote: i remember naniwa 4 gating on crossfire when he went to korea(i think his first gstl appearance) It was PvP though. He won the Ace match against Genius with a 4gate. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:20 FairForever wrote: Did the test involve using t-test? Or what? The problem is that if you can't test this like you test a coin (with p = 1/3), because we don't expect 1/3 of the GSL to be Terran. Our expectation is that the ratio of Terran:Total in the GSL is equal to the ratio of Terran:Total in either Korea, Pro-Gaming Teams, or the World (depending on what you want to use - personally, I'd use Pro-Gaming teams). I don't have the ratio but if half of the players on Pro teams in Korea played Terran, then we'd expect 1/2 to be Terran. EDIT: But yes, if we could find evidence to suggest that our hypothesis should be that p = 1/3, then we could very easily say that there is virtually no possible chance that Terran isn't OP. Right. It's possible that at some point in the past, Terran was OP (say, before reaper/depot nerf) and all the pro players started playing Terran then. Since then, the game has become balanced, but nobody wants to go through the effort of switching races, so 50% of progamers are terran, therefore 50% of GSL is terran even though the game is balanced (this is a hypothetical argument). It's entirely possible for GSL to be like, 90% Terran and the game to not be imbalanced under the right conditions. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:18 Blazinghand wrote: EDIT: Never mind, I just failed reading comprehension terribly. I agree that MC is a good player. I think that in LR threads people get caught up in the heat of the moment (a lot) and say things that aren't necessarily accurate, or maybe don't even reflect their opinions when they sit and think about something. + Show Spoiler [i'm a moron] + On September 08 2011 03:15 Toadvine wrote: There's this amusing trend in GSL LR threads, where, should a Protoss player lose (most often happens when they get 1 base all-ind by Terran), you instantly read about how that particular Protoss player was never good, only had success with cheese, and that Protosses should wait for Protoss player X (who conveniently hasn't played yet), because he's actually really skilled, and will no doubt show them the way. People were actually willing to say HuK was better than MC in order to support this ridiculous reasoning. Or that Genius was the best Protoss in the world. A cognitive psychologist would have a field day with our LR threads, they're a goldmine of confirmation bias examples. I disagree; I think MC is a better or as good player as HuK. He has enormous experience playing in Code S, and I'm sure his stint in Code A will be very short. He's an excellent player-- and so is HuK-- but I see his being sent to the up/downs and Code A as more of a fluke than an accurate representation of his skill. I doubt most people even sit and think about this. I don't expect it either. Just found it funny how often that exact notion came up there. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On September 08 2011 02:59 QTIP. wrote: To be honest, Protoss players need to stop whining. Hongun, Trickster, Inca, Choya, ... you see how bad they all are? Your only good Protoss is MC. When he starts owning you all look so stupid for whin- Wait what??? MC to Code A? Anyway...like I was saying. MC is bad. He got stomped and he is slumping because he is too cocky. There are no good Protoss players -- you guys have been so abusive for so long and now you've been figured out. Seriously.. l2p. / sarcasm It's honestly pretty true though. A lot of BW toss (marineking included) switched to T/Z because of the beta and because of how BW was. That, combined with the large number of Terrans switching, means that there are just more skilled Terrans (and somewhat Zergs) than there are Protoss. That isn't saying that "ALL PROTOSS PLAYERS ARE INFERIOR," but more so that using simple "X number of Code S/A protoss" isn't really a good way to measure the state of balance. Let's be honest. Inca's PvZ is terrible. Choya always has been super gimmicky, and HongUn is prone to losing games he shouldn't (and winning games he shouldn't) because of his strange playstyle. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:27 Blazinghand wrote: Right. It's possible that at some point in the past, Terran was OP (say, before reaper/depot nerf) and all the pro players started playing Terran then. Since then, the game has become balanced, but nobody wants to go through the effort of switching races, so 50% of progamers are terran, therefore 50% of GSL is terran even though the game is balanced (this is a hypothetical argument). It's entirely possible for GSL to be like, 90% Terran and the game to not be imbalanced under the right conditions. And then there are race winrates themselves, which shouldn't be skewed by that. Protoss winrates are quite abyssal, which as everybody knows tends to show that Protoss players are plain bad and little abusive fucks that have been figured out and dealt with. *Terran-zerg bro high five* More seriously, I'm more saddened by the fact that we rarely get to draw some inspirational play from our protoss GSL players anymore (except desperate attempts at defending terran one base allins and trying funky shit to deny zerg droning) because they just don't get to play, rather than these stats being possibly a hint at game imbalances. Hoping for protoss hopes in code A showing good stuff (and MC is among them now :'() | ||
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