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On August 01 2013 22:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 22:08 TheDwf wrote:There is tons of that stuff around. Of course, if the zerg scouts it and reacts properly you get behind. That is a good thing. Zerg doesn't magically equalize by random pushes against a prepared Terran either. Indeed, Zerg equalizes by pressing the D button afterwards. This is the difference I was talking about in the other thread: Zerg can violently invest everything in economy after the timing because of larva inject, while Terran builds can't suddenly speed up in economy after investing in army. Thus, Zerg frequently has a second chance after their attack is defended (Zerg only pays a hefty price with his failed timing if Terran can seize the rather short window afterwards, which is often impossible for reasons X or Y), while Terran is left behind without any way to catch up. You can't compare a Terran and a Zerg timing saying "oh, the attack has failed, same consequences for each side", because the races don't function the same way and Zerg gets much higher chances of salvaging a defended attack since larva inject is forgiving. Just want to say that this is a gigantic oversimplification. If as a terran you do heavy economic damage at some point such that they have to produce 15 (or more) drones, you have a giant timing window to attack and win because they will have 15 larvae less (and 750+ minerals less to dedicate to army). I actually exploited this fact in ZvZ a while back. When I saw a zerg taking a 3rd, I would let it finish, and let him make a round of drones, then I would attack and he would guaranteed lose it because he had so much less unit-wise (this was in the roach/infestor days, so each side usually only had roaches) Yeah, 60-75 seconds during which you have zero production because such kills happen with Hellions or Hellions/Banshees triple OC. The only way to capitalize on a drone bbq is if you've already committed to a 2-bases timing before; then yes, the window will matter, otherwise no/barely. And it is no mystery you can reliably exploit this in ZvZ because, you know, you have the same production...
When did I mention triple OC? This was in relation to the holding D comment. Any time a zerg holds D that is a 60 second timing window to attack with anything that you have. If it is a drop, double drop, push to the front, whatever. It is a gigantic window to pick off tech, economy, or even an expansion. This is part of why zergs force so much economy in the early game and have a hard time dealing with pushes later if they tried to be aggressive and didnt drone hard before.
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On August 01 2013 22:59 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:29 NarutO wrote:
A cheese puts you massively ahead or straight wins the game or massively behind. The cheeses I can think of in TvP have no real chance of working but moreso losing the game. Everything Terran does on one base is allin if you have no intention of expanding. Hitting at the 11 Minute mark is a timing and for Terran with scvs possibly or likely allin. That is not cheese.
So either you have no clue or like to troll people
The distinction between cheese and all-ins is subjective. Some people refer to immortal all-ins as cheese. Big whoop, want a fight about it? Terrans have at least as much early game stuff as Protoss anyway, especially versus Zerg, and the nexus cannon by no means shuts down all early game cheese as Terrans can simply wait till it expires.
So Terrans should be happy to have zero threatening one-base stuff in TvP because they have proxy 2 rax or proxy Reapers in TvZ? Strong logic.
Oh, and yes, you just wait 1 minut for the Nexus cannon to expire, no big deal for timings-based attacks with a short window!
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On August 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:21 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 21:19 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 21:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 21:07 Big J wrote:
And just a month or two ago a lot of Terrans played such 2basish timings into a third base as well (with and without hellbats). This stuff still is playable. It's just not 1base hellions into accidently winning without really commiting anymore since the queenpatch, and since HotS zerg can't just fall back on infestors anymore and become inpenetrable until Terran 2-2 anymore after such a thing happened. Ah, the good old argument of the mythical Hellion raid winning on its own, conveniently forgetting that Zerg could easily defend that kind of gamble with evos blocking the path, the Spine + Speedlings on top of the ramp to prevent Hellions from moving in the main. But whatever. 2-bases timings are vaguely playable against Zergs who don't know how to handle it, yes, which means they're technically no more than a gimmick (except pre-Hellbats nerf, because then Hellbats/Marauders was strong enough to equalize more reliably). If Zerg answers correctly, you end up massively behind. Are you seriously saying hellions didn't occasionally just win the game pre queen patch? It wasn't mythical at all lol. I am saying it required a blunder for this kind of thing to occur. It wasn't "a free chance at accidentally winning the game" for the Terran, it was a mistake from the Zerg. Sure it required a mistake, but it wasn't much of one. Balance aside, the volatility of simply catching the zerg off guard while he lays a creep tumor or something into winning a game is silly. Banelings rolling into an army and instantly winning is the same, and frankly the game would feel so much more enjoyable to watch if those things were toned down ever so slightly. The difference is that you can't baneling roll a half-decent Terran because of widow mines.
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On August 01 2013 23:03 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 22:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 22:08 TheDwf wrote:There is tons of that stuff around. Of course, if the zerg scouts it and reacts properly you get behind. That is a good thing. Zerg doesn't magically equalize by random pushes against a prepared Terran either. Indeed, Zerg equalizes by pressing the D button afterwards. This is the difference I was talking about in the other thread: Zerg can violently invest everything in economy after the timing because of larva inject, while Terran builds can't suddenly speed up in economy after investing in army. Thus, Zerg frequently has a second chance after their attack is defended (Zerg only pays a hefty price with his failed timing if Terran can seize the rather short window afterwards, which is often impossible for reasons X or Y), while Terran is left behind without any way to catch up. You can't compare a Terran and a Zerg timing saying "oh, the attack has failed, same consequences for each side", because the races don't function the same way and Zerg gets much higher chances of salvaging a defended attack since larva inject is forgiving. Just want to say that this is a gigantic oversimplification. If as a terran you do heavy economic damage at some point such that they have to produce 15 (or more) drones, you have a giant timing window to attack and win because they will have 15 larvae less (and 750+ minerals less to dedicate to army). I actually exploited this fact in ZvZ a while back. When I saw a zerg taking a 3rd, I would let it finish, and let him make a round of drones, then I would attack and he would guaranteed lose it because he had so much less unit-wise (this was in the roach/infestor days, so each side usually only had roaches) Yeah, 60-75 seconds during which you have zero production because such kills happen with Hellions or Hellions/Banshees triple OC. The only way to capitalize on a drone bbq is if you've already committed to a 2-bases timing before; then yes, the window will matter, otherwise no/barely. And it is no mystery you can reliably exploit this in ZvZ because, you know, you have the same production... When did I mention triple OC? This was in relation to the holding D comment. Any time a zerg holds D that is a 60 second timing window to attack with anything that you have. If it is a drop, double drop, push to the front, whatever. It is a gigantic window to pick off tech, economy, or even an expansion. This is part of why zergs force so much economy in the early game and have a hard time dealing with pushes later if they tried to be aggressive and didnt drone hard before.
Triple OCs openings are standard in TvZ. And tell me more about that terrific frontal push with 2 Hellions, 2 Marines and 1 Marauder when you've just raided your 4 first Hellions...
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On August 01 2013 23:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:03 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 22:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 22:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 22:08 TheDwf wrote:There is tons of that stuff around. Of course, if the zerg scouts it and reacts properly you get behind. That is a good thing. Zerg doesn't magically equalize by random pushes against a prepared Terran either. Indeed, Zerg equalizes by pressing the D button afterwards. This is the difference I was talking about in the other thread: Zerg can violently invest everything in economy after the timing because of larva inject, while Terran builds can't suddenly speed up in economy after investing in army. Thus, Zerg frequently has a second chance after their attack is defended (Zerg only pays a hefty price with his failed timing if Terran can seize the rather short window afterwards, which is often impossible for reasons X or Y), while Terran is left behind without any way to catch up. You can't compare a Terran and a Zerg timing saying "oh, the attack has failed, same consequences for each side", because the races don't function the same way and Zerg gets much higher chances of salvaging a defended attack since larva inject is forgiving. Just want to say that this is a gigantic oversimplification. If as a terran you do heavy economic damage at some point such that they have to produce 15 (or more) drones, you have a giant timing window to attack and win because they will have 15 larvae less (and 750+ minerals less to dedicate to army). I actually exploited this fact in ZvZ a while back. When I saw a zerg taking a 3rd, I would let it finish, and let him make a round of drones, then I would attack and he would guaranteed lose it because he had so much less unit-wise (this was in the roach/infestor days, so each side usually only had roaches) Yeah, 60-75 seconds during which you have zero production because such kills happen with Hellions or Hellions/Banshees triple OC. The only way to capitalize on a drone bbq is if you've already committed to a 2-bases timing before; then yes, the window will matter, otherwise no/barely. And it is no mystery you can reliably exploit this in ZvZ because, you know, you have the same production... When did I mention triple OC? This was in relation to the holding D comment. Any time a zerg holds D that is a 60 second timing window to attack with anything that you have. If it is a drop, double drop, push to the front, whatever. It is a gigantic window to pick off tech, economy, or even an expansion. This is part of why zergs force so much economy in the early game and have a hard time dealing with pushes later if they tried to be aggressive and didnt drone hard before. Triple OCs openings are standard in TvZ. And tell me more about that terrific frontal push with 2 Hellions, 2 Marines and 1 Marauder when you've just raided your 4 first Hellions...
... I would hate to live in your world where triple OC is the only opening that terran could ever use. Man, how can anybody tell zergs that we dont adapt when you have guys like TheDwf saying something like this?
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On August 01 2013 23:04 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:59 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 NarutO wrote:
A cheese puts you massively ahead or straight wins the game or massively behind. The cheeses I can think of in TvP have no real chance of working but moreso losing the game. Everything Terran does on one base is allin if you have no intention of expanding. Hitting at the 11 Minute mark is a timing and for Terran with scvs possibly or likely allin. That is not cheese.
So either you have no clue or like to troll people
The distinction between cheese and all-ins is subjective. Some people refer to immortal all-ins as cheese. Big whoop, want a fight about it? Terrans have at least as much early game stuff as Protoss anyway, especially versus Zerg, and the nexus cannon by no means shuts down all early game cheese as Terrans can simply wait till it expires. So Terrans should be happy to have zero threatening one-base stuff in TvP because they have proxy 2 rax or proxy Reapers in TvZ? Strong logic. Oh, and yes, you just wait 1 minut for the Nexus cannon to expire, no big deal for timings-based attacks with a short window!
Terrans still do 1 base widow mine drops now that 1 base hellion drops are gone.
While i don't necessarily dislike threatening one base play as an option, i'm not necessarily super concerned with it being gone either. I mean, neither P nor Z can really do "threatening" 1 base play when scouted barring a 6-pool, yet the matchup is healthier than it's been for a long time. As long as one base play can threaten truly greedy plays (ex: triple hatch before pool), it's pretty much served its function?
2 base timings are still pretty functional, especially if a drop baits out the nex cannon. But most games are now back and forth map control skirmishes, which i'm personally pretty fond of... I don't see why 2 base timings need to be super effective, they are still very possible, so i'm not really that concerned? It is not as if there are a tonne of 2 base timings that protoss effectively threatens a terran with, assuming the terran scouts at all.
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On August 01 2013 22:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 22:08 TheDwf wrote:There is tons of that stuff around. Of course, if the zerg scouts it and reacts properly you get behind. That is a good thing. Zerg doesn't magically equalize by random pushes against a prepared Terran either. Indeed, Zerg equalizes by pressing the D button afterwards. This is the difference I was talking about in the other thread: Zerg can violently invest everything in economy after the timing because of larva inject, while Terran builds can't suddenly speed up in economy after investing in army. Thus, Zerg frequently has a second chance after their attack is defended (Zerg only pays a hefty price with his failed timing if Terran can seize the rather short window afterwards, which is often impossible for reasons X or Y), while Terran is left behind without any way to catch up. You can't compare a Terran and a Zerg timing saying "oh, the attack has failed, same consequences for each side", because the races don't function the same way and Zerg gets much higher chances of salvaging a defended attack since larva inject is forgiving. Just want to say that this is a gigantic oversimplification. If as a terran you do heavy economic damage at some point such that they have to produce 15 (or more) drones, you have a giant timing window to attack and win because they will have 15 larvae less (and 750+ minerals less to dedicate to army). I actually exploited this fact in ZvZ a while back. When I saw a zerg taking a 3rd, I would let it finish, and let him make a round of drones, then I would attack and he would guaranteed lose it because he had so much less unit-wise (this was in the roach/infestor days, so each side usually only had roaches) Yeah, 60-75 seconds during which you have zero production because such kills happen with Hellions or Hellions/Banshees triple OC. The only way to capitalize on a drone bbq is if you've already committed to a 2-bases timing before; then yes, the window will matter, otherwise no/barely. And it is no mystery you can reliably exploit this in ZvZ because, you know, you have the same production... Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:45 Big J wrote:
I'm just gonna admit that you are a superhuman being as you can sometimes hold roach/bane with 3OC while all those shitty zerg players like stephano should just sac overlords all over the place and always stop everything. How stupid of them not to.
And yeah, Z and T differ. What an insight man. Just press D and everything is going to be fine. Finally I can go Pro with those crazy good strategies. Who cares that I don't have speedbanelings, or antiair, or upgrades, or creepspread, or tech. Just really hit that D button... Why do you answer if you have nothing interesting to say? Show nested quote +And I'm staying on the discussion. 3OC builds have been the undisputed standard before the queen patch as well. I'm just reminding you that the patch didn't change anything in that regard, it only changed the BO from 1base hellions into double expand into two base hellions into another expand. No, there was still a lot of 2-bases timings, and at any rate the possibility was there to play it as a standard, unlike now. Also, I love your tendency to always say "it just changes the build orders". You said the same thing last time with the MSC regarding TvP; oh, no biggie, it just changes the build orders. Well, pity they're the very foundation of the game?
No one is forcing you to go 3 OC build verse Zerg and macro-steam roll him. 2 OC on Terran is plenty seeing as how a 2 OC T can hold its own fine verse 3 base Zerg. (Terrans these days think they're so entitled to everything, like 'make Mech viable!' Sorry but mech doesnt need to be viable, you dont see Zerg players angry they cant go pure air verse Terran)
Stop complaining about TvP, its actually a balanced matchup we have, unlike TvZ. MSC actually solved a lot of early game PvT problems
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On August 01 2013 23:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:08 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 23:03 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 22:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 22:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 22:08 TheDwf wrote:There is tons of that stuff around. Of course, if the zerg scouts it and reacts properly you get behind. That is a good thing. Zerg doesn't magically equalize by random pushes against a prepared Terran either. Indeed, Zerg equalizes by pressing the D button afterwards. This is the difference I was talking about in the other thread: Zerg can violently invest everything in economy after the timing because of larva inject, while Terran builds can't suddenly speed up in economy after investing in army. Thus, Zerg frequently has a second chance after their attack is defended (Zerg only pays a hefty price with his failed timing if Terran can seize the rather short window afterwards, which is often impossible for reasons X or Y), while Terran is left behind without any way to catch up. You can't compare a Terran and a Zerg timing saying "oh, the attack has failed, same consequences for each side", because the races don't function the same way and Zerg gets much higher chances of salvaging a defended attack since larva inject is forgiving. Just want to say that this is a gigantic oversimplification. If as a terran you do heavy economic damage at some point such that they have to produce 15 (or more) drones, you have a giant timing window to attack and win because they will have 15 larvae less (and 750+ minerals less to dedicate to army). I actually exploited this fact in ZvZ a while back. When I saw a zerg taking a 3rd, I would let it finish, and let him make a round of drones, then I would attack and he would guaranteed lose it because he had so much less unit-wise (this was in the roach/infestor days, so each side usually only had roaches) Yeah, 60-75 seconds during which you have zero production because such kills happen with Hellions or Hellions/Banshees triple OC. The only way to capitalize on a drone bbq is if you've already committed to a 2-bases timing before; then yes, the window will matter, otherwise no/barely. And it is no mystery you can reliably exploit this in ZvZ because, you know, you have the same production... When did I mention triple OC? This was in relation to the holding D comment. Any time a zerg holds D that is a 60 second timing window to attack with anything that you have. If it is a drop, double drop, push to the front, whatever. It is a gigantic window to pick off tech, economy, or even an expansion. This is part of why zergs force so much economy in the early game and have a hard time dealing with pushes later if they tried to be aggressive and didnt drone hard before. Triple OCs openings are standard in TvZ. And tell me more about that terrific frontal push with 2 Hellions, 2 Marines and 1 Marauder when you've just raided your 4 first Hellions... ... I would hate to live in your world where triple OC is the only opening that terran could ever use. Man, how can anybody tell zergs that we dont adapt when you have guys like TheDwf saying something like this?
They think they're entitled to tripleOC and macro steamroll their opponent. Rofl.
Thank god we dont have whiny Protoss players like these Terran counterparts who claim 3 nexus first is standard and cant go 3 nexus before gateway
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On August 01 2013 23:11 stille_nacht wrote:
Terrans still do 1 base widow mine drops now that 1 base hellion drops are gone.
While i don't necessarily dislike threatening one base play as an option, i'm not necessarily super concerned with it being gone either. I mean, neither P nor Z can really do "threatening" 1 base play when scouted barring a 6-pool, yet the matchup is healthier than it's been for a long time. As long as one base play can threaten truly greedy plays (ex: triple hatch before pool), it's pretty much served its function?
Indeed, the fact Terran doesn't have 1-base play vs Protoss isn't a problem per se. The issue comes from the fact the other side has many strong possibilities in this domain (blink, proxy Immos, proxy Stargates, etc.). If Protoss didn't have those options it would be fine, just like in TvZ neither side has particularly viable 1-base all-ins.
On August 01 2013 23:14 GhostOwl wrote:
No one is forcing you to go 3 OC build verse Zerg and macro-steam roll him. 2 OC on Terran is plenty seeing as how a 2 OC T can hold its own fine verse 3 base Zerg. (Terrans these days think they're so entitled to everything, like 'make Mech viable!' Sorry but mech doesnt need to be viable, you dont see Zerg players angry they cant go pure air verse Terran)
Stop complaining about TvP, its actually a balanced matchup we have, unlike TvZ. MSC actually solved a lot of early game PvT problems
Like actually having to scout and react, instead of having zero intel before 7'30 and still being perfectly safe with MSC expand into robo?
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... I would hate to live in your world where triple OC is the only opening that terran could ever use. Man, how can anybody tell zergs that we dont adapt when you have guys like TheDwf saying something like this?
As 3 CC is something very, very annoying to play. I tried a lots of things. Reaper/Hellion into only one expand, Demuslim's push etc...
Well, 2 bases timings can work in TvZ, but it's so relying on your opponnent doing badly that it's not really worth it. Unless you're playing only bad opponnents, but below Master, mass viking can sometimes work. You're behind in economy, and if your opponent isn't bad, you lost your army. And therefore your tech etc...
2 OC into push is just bad and don't work against any decent player. I know that, coz i'm only doing that theses times.
TvP, well unless you're doing all-in 2 bases MMM + SCV. It's the exactly the same. So ye, 3 OC is kind of the only way TvZ and TvP, although in TvP you can start your tech before the 3rd.
1 base all-in, I have no problem if there isn't a lot of them. At least one should be sufficient. 2 base play that is not all-in SHOULD BE VIABLE. There is none in TvZ, nor than in ZvT (they work now coz of 3CC go-to build).
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On August 01 2013 23:20 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:11 stille_nacht wrote:
Terrans still do 1 base widow mine drops now that 1 base hellion drops are gone.
While i don't necessarily dislike threatening one base play as an option, i'm not necessarily super concerned with it being gone either. I mean, neither P nor Z can really do "threatening" 1 base play when scouted barring a 6-pool, yet the matchup is healthier than it's been for a long time. As long as one base play can threaten truly greedy plays (ex: triple hatch before pool), it's pretty much served its function? Indeed, the fact Terran doesn't have 1-base play vs Protoss isn't a problem per se. The issue comes from the fact the other side has many strong possibilities in this domain (blink, proxy Immos, proxy Stargates, etc.). If Protoss didn't have those options it would be fine, just like in TvZ neither side has particularly viable 1-base all-ins. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:14 GhostOwl wrote:
No one is forcing you to go 3 OC build verse Zerg and macro-steam roll him. 2 OC on Terran is plenty seeing as how a 2 OC T can hold its own fine verse 3 base Zerg. (Terrans these days think they're so entitled to everything, like 'make Mech viable!' Sorry but mech doesnt need to be viable, you dont see Zerg players angry they cant go pure air verse Terran)
Stop complaining about TvP, its actually a balanced matchup we have, unlike TvZ. MSC actually solved a lot of early game PvT problems Like actually having to scout and react, instead of having zero intel before 7'30 and still being perfectly safe with MSC expand into robo?
I'd argue that P's all-ins are pretty easy to scout and hold off though. Even unscouted, proxy immo and blink tend to fail 40/60, and scouted.... well there's no way. proxy oracle stands out, but again, it's really easy to scout a toss and see no tech/ missing pylon.
I agree its much more threatening than any wonky stim timings or proxy marauders a terran can do, but i just don't think those things swing the matchup that much.
The thing is scouting and reacting does very little outside of all ins in PvT. You can look at all terran structures in early game and still be unsure, or just go on with your own standard play. What the MSC does is change the fundamental build orders of protoss, because it offers so much more protection, as you said, safe robo expands. It also alters the way protoss is allowed to position their army because of recall. Basically it was a quick fix to the problems forcefields were causing in balance.
So far i'd say it's worked out rather well... i mean, protoss was lagging pretty far behind in wings.
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On August 01 2013 23:22 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +... I would hate to live in your world where triple OC is the only opening that terran could ever use. Man, how can anybody tell zergs that we dont adapt when you have guys like TheDwf saying something like this? As 3 CC is something very, very annoying to play. I tried a lots of things. Reaper/Hellion into only one expand, Demuslim's push etc... Well, 2 bases timings can work in TvZ, but it's so relying on your opponnent doing badly that it's not really worth it. Unless you're playing only bad opponnents, but below Master, mass viking can sometimes work. You're behind in economy, and if your opponent isn't bad, you lost your army. And therefore your tech etc... 2 OC into push is just bad and don't work against any decent player. I know that, coz i'm only doing that theses times. TvP, well unless you're doing all-in 2 bases MMM + SCV. It's the exactly the same. So ye, 3 OC is kind of the only way TvZ and TvP, although in TvP you can start your tech before the 3rd.
Before innovation, 2 base play was standard. He made every terran realize just how greedy you can be and get away with things. He bumped the bar up for macro builds.
You can still proxy 2 rax, banshee, hellion/banshee, 2 rax reaper, marauder/hellion and others.
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On August 01 2013 23:20 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:11 stille_nacht wrote:
Terrans still do 1 base widow mine drops now that 1 base hellion drops are gone.
While i don't necessarily dislike threatening one base play as an option, i'm not necessarily super concerned with it being gone either. I mean, neither P nor Z can really do "threatening" 1 base play when scouted barring a 6-pool, yet the matchup is healthier than it's been for a long time. As long as one base play can threaten truly greedy plays (ex: triple hatch before pool), it's pretty much served its function? Indeed, the fact Terran doesn't have 1-base play vs Protoss isn't a problem per se. The issue comes from the fact the other side has many strong possibilities in this domain (blink, proxy Immos, proxy Stargates, etc.). If Protoss didn't have those options it would be fine, just like in TvZ neither side has particularly viable 1-base all-ins. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:14 GhostOwl wrote:
No one is forcing you to go 3 OC build verse Zerg and macro-steam roll him. 2 OC on Terran is plenty seeing as how a 2 OC T can hold its own fine verse 3 base Zerg. (Terrans these days think they're so entitled to everything, like 'make Mech viable!' Sorry but mech doesnt need to be viable, you dont see Zerg players angry they cant go pure air verse Terran)
Stop complaining about TvP, its actually a balanced matchup we have, unlike TvZ. MSC actually solved a lot of early game PvT problems Like actually having to scout and react, instead of having zero intel before 7'30 and still being perfectly safe with MSC expand into robo?
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe?
MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily. There are cheese u can do before MSC timing.
Look at Terrans ability to wall-in perfectly and repair and triple bunker up without fear of overspending on early defense since u can salvage. That, to me, is alot more early game safety than what a cannon that takes a chunk of energy and easily expires provides. But I dont expect you to see this, we know what kind of character you are."3 base OC cant do harass, oh no" "Zerg can make a crapton with larva and has better timing!" "TvZ is balanced" Yeah, okay buddy.
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On August 01 2013 23:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:22 MTAC wrote:... I would hate to live in your world where triple OC is the only opening that terran could ever use. Man, how can anybody tell zergs that we dont adapt when you have guys like TheDwf saying something like this? As 3 CC is something very, very annoying to play. I tried a lots of things. Reaper/Hellion into only one expand, Demuslim's push etc... Well, 2 bases timings can work in TvZ, but it's so relying on your opponnent doing badly that it's not really worth it. Unless you're playing only bad opponnents, but below Master, mass viking can sometimes work. You're behind in economy, and if your opponent isn't bad, you lost your army. And therefore your tech etc... 2 OC into push is just bad and don't work against any decent player. I know that, coz i'm only doing that theses times. TvP, well unless you're doing all-in 2 bases MMM + SCV. It's the exactly the same. So ye, 3 OC is kind of the only way TvZ and TvP, although in TvP you can start your tech before the 3rd. Before innovation, 2 base play was standard. He made every terran realize just how greedy you can be and get away with things. He bumped the bar up for macro builds. You can still proxy 2 rax, banshee, hellion/banshee, 2 rax reaper, marauder/hellion and others.
Korean terrans were going 3CC 2 EBay builds from way before innovation.
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but i just don't think those things swing the matchup that much.
It swings the match-up when 200 to 500 gas were invested in sentry to fend off early agressions whitout losing something. Now they are invested in an earlier tech. TvP isn't really broken atm. But this fast tech thing just means that if the toss does not push on 1/2 bases and fail. You pretty much have to SCV pull if you're not confident in your ghost usage. That's true on ladder, as well on pro play. Changing a strong timing push into a 90% Tvp macro-game ending is just another bad thing. As well as the 3CC in TvZ.
Before innovation, 2 base play was standard. He made every terran realize just how greedy you can be and get away with things. He bumped the bar up for macro builds.
2 base play isn't standard since ghost nerf. kthxbye.
Marauder/hellion is dead since 5 range queen. 6 Queen build fended off marauder/hellion with decent micro whitout a real scout. the 1 base variant as well as the 2 base one.
Hellion/banshee is a variant of some 3 CC build. 3rd is made slightly before the starport, or slightly after. Except that now there is no building needed before making spores. And that hellion/banshee was far better when going mech than when going bio. Now, mech is just... mech.
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Is 3CC 2 ebay really going to remain the standard though? because even someone like Hyvaa can break that with relative ease, even when siege tanks are produced... though Hyvaa was blindly going roach banes in the game vs. fantasy
also, you're complining about 500 gas to be safe? Terrans building bunker+8 rines are safe, and thats only 500 minerals...
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On August 01 2013 23:32 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 23:22 MTAC wrote:... I would hate to live in your world where triple OC is the only opening that terran could ever use. Man, how can anybody tell zergs that we dont adapt when you have guys like TheDwf saying something like this? As 3 CC is something very, very annoying to play. I tried a lots of things. Reaper/Hellion into only one expand, Demuslim's push etc... Well, 2 bases timings can work in TvZ, but it's so relying on your opponnent doing badly that it's not really worth it. Unless you're playing only bad opponnents, but below Master, mass viking can sometimes work. You're behind in economy, and if your opponent isn't bad, you lost your army. And therefore your tech etc... 2 OC into push is just bad and don't work against any decent player. I know that, coz i'm only doing that theses times. TvP, well unless you're doing all-in 2 bases MMM + SCV. It's the exactly the same. So ye, 3 OC is kind of the only way TvZ and TvP, although in TvP you can start your tech before the 3rd. Before innovation, 2 base play was standard. He made every terran realize just how greedy you can be and get away with things. He bumped the bar up for macro builds. You can still proxy 2 rax, banshee, hellion/banshee, 2 rax reaper, marauder/hellion and others. Korean terrans were going 3CC 2 EBay builds from way before innovation.
Were they? I dont think even MKP was doing it. Who was the first to make it a standard opening that could hold almost anything instead of a "I hope I get away with this"?
I mean, triple hatch before pool has been done, but that isnt standard or anything.
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On August 01 2013 23:32 MTAC wrote:It swings the match-up when 200 to 500 gas were invested in sentry to fend off early agressions whitout losing something. Now they are invested in an earlier tech. TvP isn't really broken atm. But this fast tech thing just means that if the toss does not push on 1/2 bases and fail. You pretty much have to SCV pull if you're not confident in your ghost usage. That's true on ladder, as well on pro play. Changing a strong timing push into a 90% Tvp macro-game ending is just another bad thing. As well as the 3CC in TvZ. Show nested quote +
Before innovation, 2 base play was standard. He made every terran realize just how greedy you can be and get away with things. He bumped the bar up for macro builds.
2 base play isn't standard since ghost nerf. kthxbye.
What do you qualify as 2 base play? I consider getting a 3rd at 10-12 minutes as you push out with your first army to be 2 base play.
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On August 01 2013 23:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:22 MTAC wrote:... I would hate to live in your world where triple OC is the only opening that terran could ever use. Man, how can anybody tell zergs that we dont adapt when you have guys like TheDwf saying something like this? As 3 CC is something very, very annoying to play. I tried a lots of things. Reaper/Hellion into only one expand, Demuslim's push etc... Well, 2 bases timings can work in TvZ, but it's so relying on your opponnent doing badly that it's not really worth it. Unless you're playing only bad opponnents, but below Master, mass viking can sometimes work. You're behind in economy, and if your opponent isn't bad, you lost your army. And therefore your tech etc... 2 OC into push is just bad and don't work against any decent player. I know that, coz i'm only doing that theses times. TvP, well unless you're doing all-in 2 bases MMM + SCV. It's the exactly the same. So ye, 3 OC is kind of the only way TvZ and TvP, although in TvP you can start your tech before the 3rd. Before innovation, 2 base play was standard. He made every terran realize just how greedy you can be and get away with things. He bumped the bar up for macro builds. You can still proxy 2 rax, banshee, hellion/banshee, 2 rax reaper, marauder/hellion and others.
Bogus didn't invent anything regarding the triple OC build orders, they were already played before he even touched SC2, and he wasn't at all the one who came up with the 2-bases timings → triple OC "revolution". Hellions/Banshees is a variant of triple OC, and 2 rax very often transitions into triple OC as well (same for proxy Reapers, even 8-8-8). Reaper expand is also played with triple OC. Hellions/Marauders is extinct, Hellbats/Marauders as well post-patch, and what is "Banshee" exactly?...
See, it's funny how you call me deluded when you're the one who doesn't even know what "triple OC" means.
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What do you qualify as 2 base play? I consider getting a 3rd at 10-12 minutes as you push out with your first army to be 2 base play.
Taht kind of 2 base play is dead in TvZ. Unless the Zerg is just bad. TvP the same, except that you can tech before taking your third. But having the 3rd OC building before 9 is now the standard. Most of the times it's even made between 5 and 7minutes.
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EPT
