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On August 01 2013 23:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:32 MstrJinbo wrote:On August 01 2013 23:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 23:22 MTAC wrote:... I would hate to live in your world where triple OC is the only opening that terran could ever use. Man, how can anybody tell zergs that we dont adapt when you have guys like TheDwf saying something like this? As 3 CC is something very, very annoying to play. I tried a lots of things. Reaper/Hellion into only one expand, Demuslim's push etc... Well, 2 bases timings can work in TvZ, but it's so relying on your opponnent doing badly that it's not really worth it. Unless you're playing only bad opponnents, but below Master, mass viking can sometimes work. You're behind in economy, and if your opponent isn't bad, you lost your army. And therefore your tech etc... 2 OC into push is just bad and don't work against any decent player. I know that, coz i'm only doing that theses times. TvP, well unless you're doing all-in 2 bases MMM + SCV. It's the exactly the same. So ye, 3 OC is kind of the only way TvZ and TvP, although in TvP you can start your tech before the 3rd. Before innovation, 2 base play was standard. He made every terran realize just how greedy you can be and get away with things. He bumped the bar up for macro builds. You can still proxy 2 rax, banshee, hellion/banshee, 2 rax reaper, marauder/hellion and others. Korean terrans were going 3CC 2 EBay builds from way before innovation. Were they? I dont think even MKP was doing it. Who was the first to make it a standard opening that could hold almost anything instead of a "I hope I get away with this"? I mean, triple hatch before pool has been done, but that isnt standard or anything.
Pretty much every Korean Terran was doing some variant of triple OC at the end of Wings, MKP included.
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On August 01 2013 23:31 GhostOwl wrote:
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe?
Skipping Probe scout is common in PvT, and you would know that if you had any clue about how the game is played. I have met pretty much all EU Protoss in Challenger/Premier League and half of them skip Probe scout and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing before their first obs or Hallucination flies over my base.
MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily.
Really? How about you gain some basic knowledge before constantly spouting random nonsense?
There are cheese u can do before MSC timing.
Yes? Name them?
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On August 01 2013 22:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:45 Big J wrote:
I'm just gonna admit that you are a superhuman being as you can sometimes hold roach/bane with 3OC while all those shitty zerg players like stephano should just sac overlords all over the place and always stop everything. How stupid of them not to.
And yeah, Z and T differ. What an insight man. Just press D and everything is going to be fine. Finally I can go Pro with those crazy good strategies. Who cares that I don't have speedbanelings, or antiair, or upgrades, or creepspread, or tech. Just really hit that D button... Why do you answer if you have nothing interesting to say?
Haha, that's your response to me pointing out that a zerg that commits to a timing or to heavy defenses against a two base play has to skip a lot things. Meanwhile a Terran that is missing SCVs from not starting with 3OCs is always utterly fucked in your opinion, though unlike the zerg he is often not missing crucial upgrades or tech...
Races differ, and workercount is not everything. But yeah, it's always easy to point that out and get a lot of simple minded supporters who are like "60drones vs 45SCVs, clearly Zerg is has a huge advantage". Good job doing that.
On August 01 2013 22:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +And I'm staying on the discussion. 3OC builds have been the undisputed standard before the queen patch as well. I'm just reminding you that the patch didn't change anything in that regard, it only changed the BO from 1base hellions into double expand into two base hellions into another expand. No, there was still a lot of 2-bases timings, and at any rate the possibility was there to play it as a standard, unlike now. Also, I love your tendency to always say "it just changes the build orders". You said the same thing last time with the MSC regarding TvP; oh, no biggie, it just changes the build orders. Well, pity they're the very foundation of the game?
That's not quite true, because I'd openly admit that the queen patch flipped balance quite around in TvZ (though I believe the patch was good as the game quality in the early phases went up, and the core problem of WoL TvZ was quite a different one. Which of course could have been adressed by turning TvZ into PvZ 2.0 as well with buffing do or die pre-Infestor play by nerfing early Zerg defenses back, instead of infestors). Meanwhile the MSC was a new addition to a new game. Just because you want to play the WoL timings in HotS and can't, doesn't mean that HotS is now imbalanced because of the MSC.
The two base timings you are talking about were also heavily reliant on the zerg not knowing which build a Terran was doing, Terran just had so many of them - Queens were shit against everything on the ground - that it was really strong to pick one randomly as the zerg had no good way to play an unspecific defensive build.
And the two base muta builds you are talking about were fading out (not completely unplayed, but played much less) in favor of Stephanoand Infestor builds and roach/baneling allins in the 1-2months before the Queen patch. Just check out DRG at the last Dreamhack, MLG or GSL before the patch. Few mutalisk builds, a lot of fast upgrades, infestors and roach/bling allins in TvZ.
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though I believe the patch was good as the game quality in the early phases went up,
Yep, "game quality". You mean that instead of wondering what is coming, an all-in, a push into third or a 3 CC build. The Z goes now blindly 3 Hatch or Roach/Bling push? And for The Terran side, they go 3 CC every single game?
Btw, we've seen BEFORE the queen patch Pro zerg going 3 fast hatch beacause they were building... 3 roaches, or searching speed like they are doing now. The ovi scout thing i agreed with it, it's even better now due to speedovi at hatchtech. But a patch meaning that all games you can fetch a beer and a smoke during the 10 first minutes is a bad patch, for diversity, as well as game quality and everything you want.
HoTs mean the same thing in TvP for the T point of view. Nothing before 3 bases.
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On August 01 2013 20:56 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:52 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:49 5unrise wrote:On August 01 2013 20:40 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great So luxury, in other words. Protoss doesn't match the Zerg economy and still finds a way to win. You haven't spelled out a single objective reason why Terran needs the fast 3 base more than Protoss would. And in any case it remains a perfectly valid choice for the Terran to not go fast 3 CC. Well it remains a perfectly valid choice for protoss not to go proxy stargate, 4 gate, DT rush, blink allin, immortal bust and zealot archon allin... does that mean we should remove these things from the game? You are basing your arguments on terran not needing certain things to win games (with what sort of winrate I can only guess), a truly flawed argument. Terran is even worse when it comes to proxy shit and its all-ins can't be underestimated. The truth is that if you remove Protoss' capacity for all-ins, its win rate would drop. Because that is what the race depends on and has always depended on. Gimmicks like this simply can't be compared to a strategy that can be used in any match, no matter what the situation, with no real drawbacks other than that your opponent is expecting it. Please enlighten me what cheese Terran is capable of pulling off at the highest level? Against Protoss you can play a proxy factory for mines opening, but that immediately gets shut down against a defensive player. 11/11 I would dare to say works in less cases than it doesn't work and other than that, I don't see how you would cheese a Protoss. The MSC prevents all early bio timings and if any timing works, its because Protoss had 6' techbuildings at 7 minutes and no units whatsoever. Against Zerg there are double 11 barracks or 2 base pressure after the reaper/hellion, but as I mentioned, that is already semi-allin. Terran basically has no real 'CHEESE'
I'm sorry, what???
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On August 02 2013 00:14 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +though I believe the patch was good as the game quality in the early phases went up, Yep, "game quality". You mean that instead of wondering what is coming, an all-in, a push into third or a 3 CC build. The Z goes now blindly 3 Hatch or Roach/Bling push? And for The Terran side, they go 3 CC every single game? Btw, we've seen BEFORE the queen patch Pro zerg going 3 fast hatch beacause they were building... 3 roaches, or searching speed like they are doing now. The ovi scout thing i agreed with it, it's even better now due to speedovi at hatchtech. But a patch meaning that all games you can fetch a beer and a smoke during the 10 first minutes is a bad patch, for diversity, as well as game quality and everything you want. HoTs mean the same thing in TvP for the T point of view. Nothing before 3 bases.
I'm not gonna discuss personal opinions on preferred gameplay of Wings of Liberty now. If you rather like the 2011 "wondering what is coming" gameplay, I'm fine with it.
Though I wonder why you are not complaining about TvZ these days, as it is mostly 12min NR as well. (something I don't mind for as long as there is enough interaction - hellions, reapers, zerglings... - and as long as there are enough possible allins which you can fake your opponent out with or mix in sometimes. But which is obviously not enough for you as it was exactly the same in WoL after the queen patch)
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On August 01 2013 23:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:31 GhostOwl wrote:
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe? Skipping Probe scout is common in PvT, and you would know that if you had any clue about how the game is played. I have met pretty much all EU Protoss in Challenger/Premier League and half of them skip Probe scout and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing before their first obs or Hallucination flies over my base. Show nested quote +MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily. Really? How about you gain some basic knowledge before constantly spouting random nonsense? Yes? Name them?
I don't understand you at all TheDwf. Are you attempting to actually make an argument that PvT is somehow Protoss favored? Because there is an insurmountable amount of ACTUAL evidence that disagrees with you.
The international CT chart is well within the 5 percent threshold. In Korea it actually went slightly better for Terran this month. Aligulacs numbers are almost 50-50. Terran did pretty well for itself in the OSL. You have absolutely no argument for your complaints except for how you feel. Which guess what, no amount of league card pulling you try can negate cold hard facts.
If you want to nerf the MSC in some way for the sake of design, great go for it. But I would propose a medivac boost nerf as compensation.
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On August 02 2013 00:35 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 23:31 GhostOwl wrote:
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe? Skipping Probe scout is common in PvT, and you would know that if you had any clue about how the game is played. I have met pretty much all EU Protoss in Challenger/Premier League and half of them skip Probe scout and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing before their first obs or Hallucination flies over my base. MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily. Really? How about you gain some basic knowledge before constantly spouting random nonsense? There are cheese u can do before MSC timing. Yes? Name them? I don't understand you at all TheDwf. Are you attempting to actually make an argument that PvT is somehow Protoss favored? Because there is an insurmountable amount of ACTUAL evidence that disagrees with you. The international CT chart is well within the 5 percent threshold. In Korea it actually went slightly better for Terran this month. Aligulacs numbers are almost 50-50. Terran did pretty well for itself in the OSL. You have absolutely no argument for your complaints except for how you feel. Which guess what, no amount of league card pulling you try can negate cold hard facts. If you want to nerf the MSC in some way for the sake of design, great go for it. But I would propose a medivac boost nerf as compensation.
A game that is well balanced in term of win-rates does not need to be doing well in term of actual game flow.
This is what the zergs were complaining about (need to rlb all in or mlb all game long) and this is what's starting to hit TvP (do a scv train before the storm or you're done).
As TvP goes... I think we will see Rain take WCS KR rather convincingly and I'm fine with that. I guess we'll need to live with that meta for a while.
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On August 02 2013 00:05 Big J wrote:
Haha, that's your response to me pointing out that a zerg that commits to a timing or to heavy defenses against a two base play has to skip a lot things. Meanwhile a Terran that is missing SCVs from not starting with 3OCs is always utterly fucked in your opinion, though unlike the zerg he is often not missing crucial upgrades or tech...
Races differ, and workercount is not everything. But yeah, it's always easy to point that out and get a lot of simple minded supporters who are like "60drones vs 45SCVs, clearly Zerg is has a huge advantage". Good job doing that.
That's my answer to your cheap sarcasms which added nothing to the discussion. No idea why you're acting like this a contest popularity but whatever.
No, precisely a Zerg facing a bio/Hellions/Medivac timing doesn't have to skip "a lot of things"; in particular he can still get fast upgrades, which is why 2-bases timings into third are flawed because you end up behind in economy and in upgrades if Zerg plays properly. See for instance ForGG vs Stephano, Bel'shir Vestige, WCS Europe, in which Stephano goes quicker than usual upgrades (6'45) and still bashes ForGG's timing without any problem.
That's not quite true, because I'd openly admit that the queen patch flipped balance quite around in TvZ (though I believe the patch was good as the game quality in the early phases went up, and the core problem of WoL TvZ was quite a different one. Which of course could have been adressed by turning TvZ into PvZ 2.0 as well with buffing do or die pre-Infestor play by nerfing early Zerg defenses back, instead of infestors). Meanwhile the MSC was a new addition to a new game. Just because you want to play the WoL timings in HotS and can't, doesn't mean that HotS is now imbalanced because of the MSC.
Again you're missing the point. I wasn't talking about balance or even TvP, I am saying you're too often lightly saying "it just changes build orders" while this just precisely bears immense consequences on how the match-ups are played.
The two base timings you are talking about were also heavily reliant on the zerg not knowing which build a Terran was doing, Terran just had so many of them - Queens were shit against everything on the ground - that it was really strong to pick one randomly as the zerg had no good way to play an unspecific defensive build.
Nope, lings/banes/roaches already existed and blocking with buildings was enough to fend off things like dual fact reactor Hellions. But again, you're discussing off topic details instead of adressing the core argument, which was that 2-bases timings could keep up with Zerg's standard back then, and not anymore without mistakes/misreads from the Zerg side nowadays.
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On August 01 2013 19:13 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:50 Shiori wrote:
The idea of removing CC lifting/MULEs/Ghosts is absolutely absurd. The game would be cheese or die in every matchup, since you wouldn't be able to expand early (since even a reactive all-in would kill you) and you wouldn't be able to win late (no Ghosts vs Toss late = just leave the game) and you also would have a lot less production since you don't have MULEs. So basically, Terran would be more or less fucked all around. Ghosts: You're simply exaggerating. I've seen Terran compete at the highest level without using any ghosts. If Terrans can beat Rain without ghosts (and they do), then it's absurd to suggest that Terran will die every matchup. Because they won't. The issue is whether they'd keep their 50% or higher win rate. But here you're committing yourself to the position that Terrans will NEVER figure out a way to defeat templar without using ghosts. Which might one day be refuted. Time will tell.
I'm not exaggerating at all. Yes, Terran players "could" win without Ghosts in TvP, but chances are that they wouldn't once both Templar and Colossi were out. You don't seem to understand that there simply isn't any way to shut down Storms (when the Protoss has a good supporting army of Colossi/Zealots/Stalkers/Archons) other than to EMP them. The reason for this is that EMP has a fairly good range, which means that it can zone out Storms to some extent. What else are you seriously expecting Terran players to do against HTs? Are there even any other units that are particularly good at mitigating Storms/killing Archons that don't leave Terran incredibly open to a very simple tech switch? I mean, I guess you could go 200/200 Siege Tanks, but that's obviously not viable, so...
CC lifting: You haven't spelled out why Terran uniquely depends on the ability to lift its bases. Are you saying Terran is more vulnerable to early game cheese than Protoss? Because it definitely wasn't true in WoL when CC lifting was designed, and I'm not convinced it's true now. Enlighten me: Why does Terran have a special need for flying CCs, but not Protoss or Zerg?
Why does Protoss have a special need for warping structures/Pylon power fields/warp gate? Why does Zerg depend on injects and creep and Overlords? There's no objective reason; it's just the way the game is. If you simply removed CC lifting from the current incarnation of Terran, how exactly do you want Terrans to play? Should they just accept a build order loss against all-ins? Or should they play ultra-super-safe and lose to any economical build? The reason Zerg/Protoss don't have this problem is that Protoss openings in PvT (1Gate FE or some variation) are both safe and reasonably economical while Zerg openings are flexible given the way injects work. Terran, on the other hand, doesn't really have any parallel safeguards outside of Bunkers, lifting CCs, and augmented production by Reactors. Again, how do you envision Terran players holding Blink all-ins if they can't lift their CCs? How about Roach all-ins?
Mules: This sounds absurd, I agree, but ask yourself: Why should Terran be able to miner faster than the other races? In terms of mining mules are far more effective than chrono boost overall and even Zerg's larvae production in the long run. They already have a worker advantage from being able to spam flying CCs. So maybe EITHER mules or flying CCs could go and the Terrans would be able to adapt.
No. Terran can't produce 7 workers at a time like Zerg can, and nor can it pump Chronoboost into worker production. If you actually compare worker counts in replays, you'll see that Terran is nearly always behind in SCVs (early/mid game, anyhow) and that once you factor in MULEs, things even out.
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Though I wonder why you are not complaining about TvZ these days, as it is mostly 12min NR as well. (something I don't mind for as long as there is enough interaction - hellions, reapers, zerglings... - and as long as there are enough possible allins which you can fake your opponent out with or mix in sometimes. But which is obviously not enough for you as it was exactly the same in WoL after the queen patch)
Though i was wondering if you were biaised or not. Now i know. Because I COMPLAIN EVERY SINGLE POST about TvZ theses days, si Obviously you don't read. And obviously you don't play master level or don't watch progames, because they were not a single all-in after the queen patch that worked, nor than any 2 base play. Game right now isn't just stale, it is just badly designed by people complaining about "I can"t get 3 bases only drones fast" or "I can't defend an all-in".
Pro players defended them well BEFORE queen patch. BW was great because from 1 to 5 bases. Every strategy could work, why? Because they were powerfull units and timings everytime and everywhere because what was needed was skill to defend or attack. Blizzard kept patching races instead of patching maps. Now we have some macrofeasts, boring games from the first to the 12th minutes mark. This game (right now) just has not what make a real esport game worth it, I hate LoL but it's better in this case.
As long as macrofeasts will be there, it'll be the same, even if they remove mines/storms/banes or everything leading to 'oh I lost' because for a few sec you weren't watching your army.
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On August 02 2013 00:35 Wingblade wrote:
I don't understand you at all TheDwf. Are you attempting to actually make an argument that PvT is somehow Protoss favored?
No, that's not what I was doing here. I have absolutely no idea how you people read: I explain why triple OCs are standard, and people think I'm arguing that 2-bases timings should be better in TvZ; I talk about scouting in early PvT, and you immediately jump on me triumphally stating "Ah! So you say Protoss has the upper hand while my freshly published winrates say X:Y!" Chill?
Winrates also say nothing about coinflip issues, nothing about the respective difficulty to play for each side, nothing about the risk/ratio for certain things, and they say nothing about the potential each side still holds in developing its play against the other race.
If you want to nerf the MSC in some way for the sake of design, great go for it. But I would propose a medivac boost nerf as compensation.
Deal.
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On August 01 2013 22:21 TheDwf wrote:
No. Protoss scouts no expand, sees your 1-1-1 with 14 sight MSC and laughs at your push.
Scouting 1/1/1 was totally irrelevant in the days of its dominance,so that's not a change. The only counter that existed was something like a low gas build into 6 gate fast charge and of course this would lose if they bothered to research cloak. There was no way to both get observers and not lose to it even if you anticipated it from the beginning of the game. You simply did not have enough build time available on the robo after making observers to get enough immortals to matter before you died. Now in HOTS you can make the robo right after you start your expo so a lot more immortals can be constructed after you make observers before the rush hits.
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On August 02 2013 00:54 Shiori wrote:
I'm not exaggerating at all. Yes, Terran players "could" win without Ghosts in TvP, but chances are that they wouldn't once both Templar and Colossi were out. You don't seem to understand that there simply isn't any way to shut down Storms (when the Protoss has a good supporting army of Colossi/Zealots/Stalkers/Archons) other than to EMP them. No point in continuing if you're going to lack the most basic intellectual honesty.
Anyone who's honest has to admit that there's lots of matches when Terrans roll over the Protoss with just the brute force of marines, marauders, medivacs and vikings. Ghosts are kind of a luxury much of the time and the game doesn't turn at all on sniping a few HTs and getting off some good EMPs. That's the point I was making.
As for how to "shut down storms"...what a weird question that is. How about dodging them? You don't seem to realize that landing good storms is a skill and can never be guaranteed in any game against a high level Terran.
Regarding archons...I saw a Mana vs Polt game where Polt massively overproduced vikings when Mana went zealot-archon...and still dismantled Mana merely by focusing down the archons. Mana was so indignant that he asked how he's supposed to beat that composition. So it's not true that Terrans need ghosts to deal with archons.
You could argue that in the grand scheme of things Terrans will need ghosts to compete in macro games against swarms of HTs. But I could also argue that in the long run Terrans will figure out how to dodge storms, and ghosts (with undodgeable EMPs) will swing the game in favour of Terran.
At the very least, you should contemplate seriously nerfing ghosts. Would Terran really suffer in win rate if they had to research EMP like Protoss has to research storm? WHY doesn't Terran have to research EMP? Yet more special treatment for the dumbed-down race with emergency supply depots and liftable command centres?
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On August 02 2013 00:54 Shiori wrote:
Why does Protoss have a special need for warping structures/Pylon power fields/warp gate? Why does Zerg depend on injects and creep and Overlords? Again we see the Terrans go back to the fucking warp gate card. I response to EVERY one of the dozens of separate complaints that can be raised about Terran's design, they play the warp gate card.
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On August 02 2013 00:49 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 00:35 Wingblade wrote:On August 01 2013 23:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 23:31 GhostOwl wrote:
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe? Skipping Probe scout is common in PvT, and you would know that if you had any clue about how the game is played. I have met pretty much all EU Protoss in Challenger/Premier League and half of them skip Probe scout and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing before their first obs or Hallucination flies over my base. MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily. Really? How about you gain some basic knowledge before constantly spouting random nonsense? There are cheese u can do before MSC timing. Yes? Name them? I don't understand you at all TheDwf. Are you attempting to actually make an argument that PvT is somehow Protoss favored? Because there is an insurmountable amount of ACTUAL evidence that disagrees with you. The international CT chart is well within the 5 percent threshold. In Korea it actually went slightly better for Terran this month. Aligulacs numbers are almost 50-50. Terran did pretty well for itself in the OSL. You have absolutely no argument for your complaints except for how you feel. Which guess what, no amount of league card pulling you try can negate cold hard facts. If you want to nerf the MSC in some way for the sake of design, great go for it. But I would propose a medivac boost nerf as compensation. A game that is well balanced in term of win-rates does not need to be doing well in term of actual game flow. This is what the zergs were complaining about (need to rlb all in or mlb all game long) and this is what's starting to hit TvP (do a scv train before the storm or you're done). As TvP goes... I think we will see Rain take WCS KR rather convincingly and I'm fine with that. I guess we'll need to live with that meta for a while.
Rain playing his best matchup and beating inferior Terran players? Yea I'm pretty ok with that meta too. The only people to beat him in a series of PvT in Hots are Innovation and Gumiho.
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On August 02 2013 00:52 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 00:05 Big J wrote:
Haha, that's your response to me pointing out that a zerg that commits to a timing or to heavy defenses against a two base play has to skip a lot things. Meanwhile a Terran that is missing SCVs from not starting with 3OCs is always utterly fucked in your opinion, though unlike the zerg he is often not missing crucial upgrades or tech...
Races differ, and workercount is not everything. But yeah, it's always easy to point that out and get a lot of simple minded supporters who are like "60drones vs 45SCVs, clearly Zerg is has a huge advantage". Good job doing that. That's my answer to your cheap sarcasms which added nothing to the discussion. No idea why you're acting like this a contest popularity but whatever. No, precisely a Zerg facing a bio/Hellions/Medivac timing doesn't have to skip "a lot of things"; in particular he can still get fast upgrades, which is why 2-bases timings into third are flawed because you end up behind in economy and in upgrades if Zerg plays properly. See for instance ForGG vs Stephano, Bel'shir Vestige, WCS Europe, in which Stephano goes quicker than usual upgrades (6'45) and still bashes ForGG's timing without any problem.
And a zerg that goes 2base roach/baneling ends up behind in tech and in upgrades. I don't see why you argue that Terran pushes are "relying on Zerg making a mistake" because when failing them you are 15workers behind, while a Zerg push like described above is viable despite the above mentioned downsides and Terrans ability to crush it.
Show nested quote +That's not quite true, because I'd openly admit that the queen patch flipped balance quite around in TvZ (though I believe the patch was good as the game quality in the early phases went up, and the core problem of WoL TvZ was quite a different one. Which of course could have been adressed by turning TvZ into PvZ 2.0 as well with buffing do or die pre-Infestor play by nerfing early Zerg defenses back, instead of infestors). Meanwhile the MSC was a new addition to a new game. Just because you want to play the WoL timings in HotS and can't, doesn't mean that HotS is now imbalanced because of the MSC. Again you're missing the point. I wasn't talking about balance or even TvP, I am saying you're too often lightly saying "it just changes build orders" while this just precisely bears immense consequences on how the match-ups are played. Show nested quote +The two base timings you are talking about were also heavily reliant on the zerg not knowing which build a Terran was doing, Terran just had so many of them - Queens were shit against everything on the ground - that it was really strong to pick one randomly as the zerg had no good way to play an unspecific defensive build. Nope, lings/banes/roaches already existed and blocking with buildings was enough to fend off things like dual fact reactor Hellions. But again, you're discussing off topic details instead of adressing the core argument, which was that 2-bases timings could keep up with Zerg's standard back then, and not anymore without mistakes/misreads from the Zerg side nowadays.
I already adressed that.
The two base timings you are talking about were also heavily reliant on the zerg not knowing which build a Terran was doing, Terran just had so many of them
2base timings produced good winrates against Zergs standard play because zergs had to play very unsafe due to 3CC openings and many of those timings could abuse that. Which was a mix of Terran BOs that often resulted in very onesided games (Zerg being on the wrong BO, or Zerg being on the right BO - with scouting what to do being way harder with slowerlords, hellioncontains, much more viable T builds that often look similar and no creepvision on top of the "usual" problems you have on certain maps - multiple spawns with no OL in place to sac, locations inside bases that can be protected from scouting with good marine coverage).
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On August 02 2013 01:15 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 00:54 Shiori wrote:
I'm not exaggerating at all. Yes, Terran players "could" win without Ghosts in TvP, but chances are that they wouldn't once both Templar and Colossi were out. You don't seem to understand that there simply isn't any way to shut down Storms (when the Protoss has a good supporting army of Colossi/Zealots/Stalkers/Archons) other than to EMP them. No point in continuing if you're going to lack the most basic intellectual honesty.Anyone who's honest has to admit that there's lots of matches when Terrans roll over the Protoss with just the brute force of marines, marauders, medivacs and vikings. Ghosts are kind of a luxury much of the time and the game doesn't turn at all on sniping a few HTs and getting off some good EMPs. That's the point I was making. As for how to "shut down storms"...what a weird question that is. How about dodging them? You don't seem to realize that landing good storms is a skill and can never be guaranteed in any game against a high level Terran. Regarding archons...I saw a Mana vs Polt game where Polt massively overproduced vikings when Mana went zealot-archon...and still dismantled Mana merely by focusing down the archons. Mana was so indignant that he asked how he's supposed to beat that composition. So it's not true that Terrans need ghosts to deal with archons. You could argue that in the grand scheme of things Terrans will need ghosts to compete in macro games against swarms of HTs. But I could also argue that in the long run Terrans will figure out how to dodge storms, and ghosts (with undodgeable EMPs) will swing the game in favour of Terran. At the very least, you should contemplate seriously nerfing ghosts. Would Terran really suffer in win rate if they had to research EMP like Protoss has to research storm? WHY doesn't Terran have to research EMP? Yet more special treatment for the dumbed-down race with emergency supply depots and liftable command centres?
I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website.
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On August 02 2013 01:38 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 00:49 scypio wrote:On August 02 2013 00:35 Wingblade wrote:On August 01 2013 23:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 23:31 GhostOwl wrote:
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe? Skipping Probe scout is common in PvT, and you would know that if you had any clue about how the game is played. I have met pretty much all EU Protoss in Challenger/Premier League and half of them skip Probe scout and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing before their first obs or Hallucination flies over my base. MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily. Really? How about you gain some basic knowledge before constantly spouting random nonsense? There are cheese u can do before MSC timing. Yes? Name them? I don't understand you at all TheDwf. Are you attempting to actually make an argument that PvT is somehow Protoss favored? Because there is an insurmountable amount of ACTUAL evidence that disagrees with you. The international CT chart is well within the 5 percent threshold. In Korea it actually went slightly better for Terran this month. Aligulacs numbers are almost 50-50. Terran did pretty well for itself in the OSL. You have absolutely no argument for your complaints except for how you feel. Which guess what, no amount of league card pulling you try can negate cold hard facts. If you want to nerf the MSC in some way for the sake of design, great go for it. But I would propose a medivac boost nerf as compensation. A game that is well balanced in term of win-rates does not need to be doing well in term of actual game flow. This is what the zergs were complaining about (need to rlb all in or mlb all game long) and this is what's starting to hit TvP (do a scv train before the storm or you're done). As TvP goes... I think we will see Rain take WCS KR rather convincingly and I'm fine with that. I guess we'll need to live with that meta for a while. Rain playing his best matchup and beating inferior Terran players? Yea I'm pretty ok with that meta too. The only people to beat him in a series of PvT in Hots are Innovation and Gumiho.
I thought about the "scv pull before the storm" not Rain vs Terran.
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On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest.
3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc.
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EPT
