|
On August 02 2013 05:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:47 NarutO wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Rabiator wrote:On August 02 2013 03:11 NarutO wrote:On August 02 2013 03:05 Marjosz wrote:
Point me troll on this post. You're outta here, right now. Mothershipcore doesn't start with enough energy for photon overcharge. That being said, 8-8-8 is complete allin vs Protoss and so is 11/11. Its not just simple cheese and not effective by any means, thats why we see it rarely if at all. Also, I can SAFELY take 3 ccs? In what world do you live in? lol Yep ... people assume that Terrans who have 3 CCs also have 3 bases mining and ignore the fact that the 3rd CC is completed minutes before it actually floats toward the base. Thats not my point. The orbital is benefitial even inbase, but I can safely take it? What is this bullshit. There's tons of builds that can be a reaction and punish me insanely hard. Obviously, but due to the ability of the OC to speed up the mineral gathering that "window of vulnerability" is of limited duration. It takes roughly 2 MULEs to make up for the minerals spent in creating the third OC (including the minerals lost for the SCV building it). So the whole window starts when you begin building the CC and ends after the second MULE dropped by the third has finished gathering its resources. Spending 400 minerals on a CC OR on two Barracks (and some Marines) is quite a difference and one is greedy (and risky / punishable) while the other is "safer" (for the moment only though). This difference is the same for all three races ...
Wait, what? You have 550 minerals to spend. You can build a rax, a bunker, supply depot and 4 marines. There, you're safe.
Or you can build a third cc, turn in into orbital, then build rax, bunker and four marines. You really think you will be in the same defensive posture the moment the second mule brings his cargo? Nope. The rax will not even be ready.
|
On August 02 2013 02:43 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc. Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried. And again you don't give examples or any points of substance. I never said Terrans don't need EMP, just that there's a question mark over whether it's essential. Maybe better engagements and better splitting could make up most of the difference. It's certainly not comparable to psi storm, force field and fungal growth. Take those spells out the game and P and Z are destroyed.
|
On August 02 2013 05:16 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:43 forsooth wrote:On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc. Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried. And again you don't give examples or any points of substance. I never said Terrans don't need EMP, just that there's a question mark over whether it's essential. Maybe better engagements and better splitting could make up most of the difference. It's certainly not comparable to psi storm, force field and fungal growth. Take those spells out the game and P and Z are destroyed.
Do you watch/play SC2?
|
On August 02 2013 05:16 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:43 forsooth wrote:On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc. Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried. And again you don't give examples or any points of substance. I never said Terrans don't need EMP, just that there's a question mark over whether it's essential. Maybe better engagements and better splitting could make up most of the difference. It's certainly not comparable to psi storm, force field and fungal growth. Take those spells out the game and P and Z are destroyed.
Did you somehow fail to mention that EMPs are also necessary to deplete shields so Terran stands a chance in 200/200 engagements?
|
On August 02 2013 01:15 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 00:54 Shiori wrote:
I'm not exaggerating at all. Yes, Terran players "could" win without Ghosts in TvP, but chances are that they wouldn't once both Templar and Colossi were out. You don't seem to understand that there simply isn't any way to shut down Storms (when the Protoss has a good supporting army of Colossi/Zealots/Stalkers/Archons) other than to EMP them. No point in continuing if you're going to lack the most basic intellectual honesty.
How am I being dishonest by saying "chances are" that Terran wouldn't win macro games without Ghosts? I didn't say it was impossible. I said it was significantly less likely.
Anyone who's honest has to admit that there's lots of matches when Terrans roll over the Protoss with just the brute force of marines, marauders, medivacs and vikings.
Yes. I already addressed this. This only really happens consistently when the Terran does some sort of pre-Storm SCV pull timing off of three bases or when the Terran does huge amounts of damage in the early game as the result of some risky play that paid off. If one looks at two maxed out, 3/3 Terran and Protoss armies, the situation is heavily dependent on the Storms vs EMPs and the Vikings vs Stalkers. If you remove Ghosts, then Protoss gets to Storm much more easily, and Terran has no real recourse against Templar play.
Ghosts are kind of a luxury much of the time and the game doesn't turn at all on sniping a few HTs and getting off some good EMPs. That's the point I was making.
They're a luxury when the game has already resulted in a huge advantage for one player. A maxed out Protoss who isn't braindead is going to land at least some good Storms if there are zero EMPs/Ghosts, and Archons are going to be absolutely devastating without EMPs. Hell, even Zealots can't be mowed down efficiently without an EMP on the ball.
[quote]As for how to "shut down storms"...what a weird question that is. How about dodging them? You don't seem to realize that landing good storms is a skill and can never be guaranteed in any game against a high level Terran.[/quoote]
There's dodging to mitigate damage and dodging altogether. The latter is largely impossible against a similarly skilled opponent, barring a lot of luck. Even with the best reaction time, you're still going to take the first tick from the Storm, at minimum, and since there are no Ghosts, the Protoss is going to have a hell of a lot of Storms. The reason people don't go mass HT in PvT is precisely because of EMP. You need something to keep the Terran player from just totally cutting Vikings to add more Ghosts/bio/Medivacs i.e. Colossi. With no Ghosts in the game, Storm is pretty much always going to be a good investment, and it's not like you have to worry about overmaking Templar.
You don't seem to understand that even if Terrans are dodging Storms, they're not attacking when they're dodging. Ordinarily, Terran players get Ghosts to minimize the number Storms/force the Protoss player to jockey for position and to stop the Protoss player from just carpet bombing them from one side of the map to the other. If you take away Ghosts, Terran's only long-ranged threat in TvP would be the Viking. And that's not too helpful against ground units.
[quote]Regarding archons...I saw a Mana vs Polt game where Polt massively overproduced vikings when Mana went zealot-archon...and still dismantled Mana merely by focusing down the archons. Mana was so indignant that he asked how he's supposed to beat that composition. So it's not true that Terrans need ghosts to deal with archons.[/quote]
This is possibly the dumbest thing you've written, and that's saying a lot. Obviously there are outlier cases where players win against extremely unfavourable odds. But that doesn't mean it's something one can do reliably. First off, Polt has always been on a higher level than Mana in the grand scheme of things. We're talking about a player who has been S class on multiple occasions versus a fairly good, but not Naniwa, foreign Protoss, who also happens to be pretty inconsistent.
[quote]You could argue that in the grand scheme of things Terrans will need ghosts to compete in macro games against swarms of HTs. But I could also argue that in the long run Terrans will figure out how to dodge storms, and ghosts (with undodgeable EMPs) will swing the game in favour of Terran.[/quote]
Nobody's discounting that there is some minute possibility that Terran players would magically figure out how to dodge Storms (though one would wonder why they don't just do this now, considering that it would make bio practically unkillable in the current metagame) but merely that there's mountains of evidence to suggest this isn't the case i.e. the countless games of Terran players who don't get Ghosts in time (or at all) getting rightly beaten in a convincing fashion once Storms/Archons are out in sufficient numbers.
[quote]At the very least, you should contemplate seriously nerfing ghosts. Would Terran really suffer in win rate if they had to research EMP like Protoss has to research storm? WHY doesn't Terran have to research EMP? Yet more special treatment for the dumbed-down race with emergency supply depots and liftable command centres?[/QUOTE]
First off, Ghosts have already been nerfed. EMP used to be a lot stronger than it is right now. I'm not sure if you've been around long enough to remember those days, since you don't seem to know much about the game nor it's evolution. Second, this is a moronic question in general. Ghosts, Templar, and HTs are completely different units in basically every sense. Why can HTs be warped in? Why can HTs turn into Archons? Why does Protoss get DTs and HTs, and why can both of them turn into Archons? Why does Feedback do damage and drain energy whereas EMP only does the latter? Why are HTs slow? Why can Infestors burrow and spawn more units? Etc. etc.
Your complaining about supply depots and liftable command centers betrays your bio. First of all, high level players rarely use emergency command centers because they're a waste of energy relative to a MULE. The only time they're even remotely useful in a high level game is when some really unexpected damage occurs and you want to resume production slightly sooner than waiting till you got supply blocked. But that doesn't really matter much in those situations either, because assuming you took a lot of damage, you'd probably much rather use that energy on MULEs (or save it for Scans in the case of DTs/Banshees/Infestors) and rebuild your shattered infrastructure.
Liftable CCs are unique to Terran in the same way that Protoss has Chronoboost/Mothership Core, and in the same way the Zerg Hatcheries spawn Larvae and generate Creep. I'm a Protoss player, for what it's worth, but even I can see that calling Terran some sort of easy race is ridiculous, particularly at APM-limited lower levels, since a-moved chargelots/lings/banelings/Colossi fare a lot better than a-moved MMM in most engagements. That doesn't mean Terran is harder than P/Z, or anything; it just means it has APM obstacles at different levels than the other two races (who are also different from each other).
|
|
|
On August 02 2013 05:16 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:43 forsooth wrote:On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc. Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried. And again you don't give examples or any points of substance. I never said Terrans don't need EMP, just that there's a question mark over whether it's essential. Maybe better engagements and better splitting could make up most of the difference. It's certainly not comparable to psi storm, force field and fungal growth. Take those spells out the game and P and Z are destroyed.
It _is_ essential. There is not a single lategame situation where you could break a defensive stance or make a hold without at least minimizing the AoE. God forbid are you mad? Have you seen any Terran lategame which was even without ghost/emp? It just doesn't happen and I dare to say not even automaton would have the micro needed to make a 200/200 engagement work vs colossus/ht/archon/zealot with bio medivac....
Not only don't you have more damage on your army, but also the damage output is smaller since if you take out emp 3-3-3 matters. You can take away the shield upgrades with EMP + Life(shield) to increase your damage. Questioning that Terran could play TvP lategame without ghosts is just madness and shows how little you actually know about the game to even question it.
|
On August 02 2013 05:16 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:43 forsooth wrote:On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc. Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried. And again you don't give examples or any points of substance. I never said Terrans don't need EMP, just that there's a question mark over whether it's essential. Maybe better engagements and better splitting could make up most of the difference. It's certainly not comparable to psi storm, force field and fungal growth. Take those spells out the game and P and Z are destroyed.
Are you watching the game? The best terrans in the world are already very reluctant to go into the late game vs protoss and opt in for an scv pull to end the game as soon as possible.
I think that we had way more super-late-game TvP's in WoL than we had in HotS for this very reason. And you come up with an idea that maybe we you can take away the only tool that T has that allows them to compete in the late game and hold of a zealot-ht-archon all ins.
That's a horrible idea.
Yeah, with automaton 2000 micro you can dodge everything and things would possibly work out for the T. But actually there are humans that play the game and they are pushed to the limit already.
|
On August 02 2013 04:21 ChristianS wrote:
I assume you want Terran to do what they frequently do against HTs, which is to mass bio and try to avoid storms. The problem is, every Terran and every Protoss in the world will acknowledge that if Terran doesn't get ghosts against HTs, he's on a timer. A colossus-HT army gets to be too strong to beat unless you have ghosts to take care of HTs. So without ghosts in the game, Protoss could get masses of HTs, clump them as freely as they like, and storm constantly. The more templar you have, the less of a sacrifice each storm is, so you could easily afford to do wasteful storms which only damage a few bio, or which only zone the bio out, or which damage your zealots as much as they damage the bio. That'd be fine.
No, not really. The timer works both ways. Hang on too long and the Terran can spam as many CCs as he likes, put planetaries everywhere, add Ravens to his army, and increase his army by 50 supply by killing SCVs and relying on an mule-only economy.
The question is whether Terran can weather the storm. I see no reason why they can't if they play sufficiently cleverly and carefully. But maybe that's a foreign concept to the dumbed-down race.
|
@ GreenGringo - WOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW Someone is considerably hurt in the PvT Match up LOL That claim is so absurd and shows such a lack of knowledge and experience and decent skill that I actually threw up in my mouth a little from acknowledgement that someone would be that confident in a statement with such little knowledge to even post that on a legitimate forum......
|
On August 02 2013 05:26 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:21 ChristianS wrote:
I assume you want Terran to do what they frequently do against HTs, which is to mass bio and try to avoid storms. The problem is, every Terran and every Protoss in the world will acknowledge that if Terran doesn't get ghosts against HTs, he's on a timer. A colossus-HT army gets to be too strong to beat unless you have ghosts to take care of HTs. So without ghosts in the game, Protoss could get masses of HTs, clump them as freely as they like, and storm constantly. The more templar you have, the less of a sacrifice each storm is, so you could easily afford to do wasteful storms which only damage a few bio, or which only zone the bio out, or which damage your zealots as much as they damage the bio. That'd be fine.
No, not really. The timer works both ways. Hang on too long and the Terran can spam as many CCs as he likes, put planetaries everywhere, add Ravens to his army, and increase his army by 50 supply by killing SCVs and relying on an mule-only economy. The question is whether Terran can weather the storm. I see no reason why they can't if they play sufficiently cleverly and carefully. But maybe that's a foreign concept to the dumbed-down race.
Please link me to HotS high level games (any premier tournament will do) where this happened. How many times have you seen a terran do a Raven transition in HotS? I think I'm at 0.
|
Your claim in the Z match-up shows how much you actually know about this game Ghosts are NEVER used in the TvZ match up ...... so you are obviously a protoss player that is tired of losing to terrans..... Go chargelot archon +2 armor by 12 mins and see how fast you melt a non ghost army.......
|
On August 02 2013 05:23 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:16 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 02:43 forsooth wrote:On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc. Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried. And again you don't give examples or any points of substance. I never said Terrans don't need EMP, just that there's a question mark over whether it's essential. Maybe better engagements and better splitting could make up most of the difference. It's certainly not comparable to psi storm, force field and fungal growth. Take those spells out the game and P and Z are destroyed. Are you watching the game? The best terrans in the world are already very reluctant to go into the late game vs protoss and opt in for an scv pull to end the game as soon as possible. I think that we had way more super-late-game TvP's in WoL than we had in HotS for this very reason. And you come up with an idea that maybe we you can take away the only tool that T has that allows them to compete in the late game and hold of a zealot-ht-archon all ins. That's a horrible idea. Yeah, with automaton 2000 micro you can dodge everything and things would possibly work out for the T. But actually there are humans that play the game and they are pushed to the limit already. Your reading comprehension sucks.
I never said we should take away ghosts; just that I can CONCEIVE that Terran would be able to maintain their win rate even without a unit that disgustingly powerful. They just need to dodge storms better, turtle better, be more diligent about supplementing their army with ravens.
Whereas infestors and HTs are absolutely fundamental to P and Z. Take away these units and they can't win.
|
On August 02 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:26 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:21 ChristianS wrote:
I assume you want Terran to do what they frequently do against HTs, which is to mass bio and try to avoid storms. The problem is, every Terran and every Protoss in the world will acknowledge that if Terran doesn't get ghosts against HTs, he's on a timer. A colossus-HT army gets to be too strong to beat unless you have ghosts to take care of HTs. So without ghosts in the game, Protoss could get masses of HTs, clump them as freely as they like, and storm constantly. The more templar you have, the less of a sacrifice each storm is, so you could easily afford to do wasteful storms which only damage a few bio, or which only zone the bio out, or which damage your zealots as much as they damage the bio. That'd be fine.
No, not really. The timer works both ways. Hang on too long and the Terran can spam as many CCs as he likes, put planetaries everywhere, add Ravens to his army, and increase his army by 50 supply by killing SCVs and relying on an mule-only economy. The question is whether Terran can weather the storm. I see no reason why they can't if they play sufficiently cleverly and carefully. But maybe that's a foreign concept to the dumbed-down race. Please link me to HotS high level games (any premier tournament will do) where this happened. How many times have you seen a terran do a Raven transition in HotS? I think I'm at 0. How many times have I seen a Terran with an IQ over 120? Probably a couple, and one of them is MVP.
Ravens are just obviously a unit they should be using. In WoL these guys couldn't even figure out that spamming bunkers counters every all-in from Protoss. Except MVP, and he won multiple GSLs.
|
On August 02 2013 05:30 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:23 scypio wrote:On August 02 2013 05:16 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 02:43 forsooth wrote:On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc. Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried. And again you don't give examples or any points of substance. I never said Terrans don't need EMP, just that there's a question mark over whether it's essential. Maybe better engagements and better splitting could make up most of the difference. It's certainly not comparable to psi storm, force field and fungal growth. Take those spells out the game and P and Z are destroyed. Are you watching the game? The best terrans in the world are already very reluctant to go into the late game vs protoss and opt in for an scv pull to end the game as soon as possible. I think that we had way more super-late-game TvP's in WoL than we had in HotS for this very reason. And you come up with an idea that maybe we you can take away the only tool that T has that allows them to compete in the late game and hold of a zealot-ht-archon all ins. That's a horrible idea. Yeah, with automaton 2000 micro you can dodge everything and things would possibly work out for the T. But actually there are humans that play the game and they are pushed to the limit already. Your reading comprehension sucks. I never said we should take away ghosts; just that I can CONCEIVE that Terran would be able to maintain their win rate even without a unit that disgustingly powerful. They just need to dodge storms better, turtle better, be more diligent about supplementing their army with ravens. Whereas infestors and HTs are absolutely fundamental to P and Z. Take away these units and they can't win.
Do you honestly just think Ghosts are there to emp HTs? Without ghosts, Terran would never beat Protoss after the 14 minute mark.
|
On August 02 2013 05:31 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:30 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 05:23 scypio wrote:On August 02 2013 05:16 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 02:43 forsooth wrote:On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc. Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried. And again you don't give examples or any points of substance. I never said Terrans don't need EMP, just that there's a question mark over whether it's essential. Maybe better engagements and better splitting could make up most of the difference. It's certainly not comparable to psi storm, force field and fungal growth. Take those spells out the game and P and Z are destroyed. Are you watching the game? The best terrans in the world are already very reluctant to go into the late game vs protoss and opt in for an scv pull to end the game as soon as possible. I think that we had way more super-late-game TvP's in WoL than we had in HotS for this very reason. And you come up with an idea that maybe we you can take away the only tool that T has that allows them to compete in the late game and hold of a zealot-ht-archon all ins. That's a horrible idea. Yeah, with automaton 2000 micro you can dodge everything and things would possibly work out for the T. But actually there are humans that play the game and they are pushed to the limit already. Your reading comprehension sucks. I never said we should take away ghosts; just that I can CONCEIVE that Terran would be able to maintain their win rate even without a unit that disgustingly powerful. They just need to dodge storms better, turtle better, be more diligent about supplementing their army with ravens. Whereas infestors and HTs are absolutely fundamental to P and Z. Take away these units and they can't win. Do you honestly just think Ghosts are there to emp HTs? Without ghosts, Terran would never beat Protoss after the 14 minute mark. This kind of lying in defence of your privilege is exactly why I felt the need to post about ghosts.
You're simply lying. Terran wins all the time past the 14 minute mark without using or having to use ghosts.
|
On August 02 2013 05:31 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:On August 02 2013 05:26 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:21 ChristianS wrote:
I assume you want Terran to do what they frequently do against HTs, which is to mass bio and try to avoid storms. The problem is, every Terran and every Protoss in the world will acknowledge that if Terran doesn't get ghosts against HTs, he's on a timer. A colossus-HT army gets to be too strong to beat unless you have ghosts to take care of HTs. So without ghosts in the game, Protoss could get masses of HTs, clump them as freely as they like, and storm constantly. The more templar you have, the less of a sacrifice each storm is, so you could easily afford to do wasteful storms which only damage a few bio, or which only zone the bio out, or which damage your zealots as much as they damage the bio. That'd be fine.
No, not really. The timer works both ways. Hang on too long and the Terran can spam as many CCs as he likes, put planetaries everywhere, add Ravens to his army, and increase his army by 50 supply by killing SCVs and relying on an mule-only economy. The question is whether Terran can weather the storm. I see no reason why they can't if they play sufficiently cleverly and carefully. But maybe that's a foreign concept to the dumbed-down race. Please link me to HotS high level games (any premier tournament will do) where this happened. How many times have you seen a terran do a Raven transition in HotS? I think I'm at 0. How many times have I seen a Terran with an IQ over 120? Probably a couple, and one of them is MVP. Ravens are just obviously a unit they should be using. In WoL these guys couldn't even figure out that spamming bunkers counters every all-in from Protoss. Except MVP, and he won multiple GSLs.
You're delusional. You imagine in your head a T making a super-late-game raven transition vs Protoss and this is something that has never happend throughout the lifespan of HotS at the pro level. You say "Mvp" and I only recall one game where he did it (that Metropolis)... and lost.
Well done.
|
On August 02 2013 05:35 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:31 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:On August 02 2013 05:26 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:21 ChristianS wrote:
I assume you want Terran to do what they frequently do against HTs, which is to mass bio and try to avoid storms. The problem is, every Terran and every Protoss in the world will acknowledge that if Terran doesn't get ghosts against HTs, he's on a timer. A colossus-HT army gets to be too strong to beat unless you have ghosts to take care of HTs. So without ghosts in the game, Protoss could get masses of HTs, clump them as freely as they like, and storm constantly. The more templar you have, the less of a sacrifice each storm is, so you could easily afford to do wasteful storms which only damage a few bio, or which only zone the bio out, or which damage your zealots as much as they damage the bio. That'd be fine.
No, not really. The timer works both ways. Hang on too long and the Terran can spam as many CCs as he likes, put planetaries everywhere, add Ravens to his army, and increase his army by 50 supply by killing SCVs and relying on an mule-only economy. The question is whether Terran can weather the storm. I see no reason why they can't if they play sufficiently cleverly and carefully. But maybe that's a foreign concept to the dumbed-down race. Please link me to HotS high level games (any premier tournament will do) where this happened. How many times have you seen a terran do a Raven transition in HotS? I think I'm at 0. How many times have I seen a Terran with an IQ over 120? Probably a couple, and one of them is MVP. Ravens are just obviously a unit they should be using. In WoL these guys couldn't even figure out that spamming bunkers counters every all-in from Protoss. Except MVP, and he won multiple GSLs. You're delusional. You imagine in your head a T making a super-late-game raven transition vs Protoss and this is something that has never happend throughout the lifespan of HotS at the pro level. You say "Mvp" and I only recall one game where he did it (that Metropolis)... and lost. Well done.
... and in the blessed days in which Tempests didn't exist.
|
On August 02 2013 05:35 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:31 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:On August 02 2013 05:26 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:21 ChristianS wrote:
I assume you want Terran to do what they frequently do against HTs, which is to mass bio and try to avoid storms. The problem is, every Terran and every Protoss in the world will acknowledge that if Terran doesn't get ghosts against HTs, he's on a timer. A colossus-HT army gets to be too strong to beat unless you have ghosts to take care of HTs. So without ghosts in the game, Protoss could get masses of HTs, clump them as freely as they like, and storm constantly. The more templar you have, the less of a sacrifice each storm is, so you could easily afford to do wasteful storms which only damage a few bio, or which only zone the bio out, or which damage your zealots as much as they damage the bio. That'd be fine.
No, not really. The timer works both ways. Hang on too long and the Terran can spam as many CCs as he likes, put planetaries everywhere, add Ravens to his army, and increase his army by 50 supply by killing SCVs and relying on an mule-only economy. The question is whether Terran can weather the storm. I see no reason why they can't if they play sufficiently cleverly and carefully. But maybe that's a foreign concept to the dumbed-down race. Please link me to HotS high level games (any premier tournament will do) where this happened. How many times have you seen a terran do a Raven transition in HotS? I think I'm at 0. How many times have I seen a Terran with an IQ over 120? Probably a couple, and one of them is MVP. Ravens are just obviously a unit they should be using. In WoL these guys couldn't even figure out that spamming bunkers counters every all-in from Protoss. Except MVP, and he won multiple GSLs. You're delusional. You imagine in your head a T making a super-late-game raven transition vs Protoss and this is something that has never happend throughout the lifespan of HotS at the pro level. You say "Mvp" and I only recall one game where he did it (that Metropolis)... and lost. Well done. It's hardly a "transition" any more than Protoss adding a mothership was a transition in WoL. Explain to me the LOGIC of Protoss in WoL, facing much greater pressure and economic constraints, could afford to tech to mothership core even despite the fleet beacon and absurdly long building time...yet somehow Terran can't produce a tech lab on a starport.
It's simply that the dumbed down race isn't prepared to push themselves to a certain level because they'd rather not.
They should be using Ravens. Those units are simply ridiculous.
|
On August 02 2013 05:20 NarutO wrote:
Questioning that Terran could play TvP lategame without ghosts is just madness and shows how little you actually know about the game to even question it. Tell that to DeMuslim. Much better player than you, doesn't get ghosts a lot of the time.
It's so funny. You're stamping your feet and continually slinging mud like a petulant little child (and it's funny that you have the barefaced cheek of accusing me of insulting a demographic that everyone KNOWS to be dumbed down and more catered to "mainstream" consumers). And you're simply wrong. Flat out wrong. You're probably some cocky diamond player. Well the best Terran player NA doesn't need to use ghosts much of the time because he's confident in his ability to split against storms.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
