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On August 01 2013 23:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:31 GhostOwl wrote:
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe? Skipping Probe scout is common in PvT, and you would know that if you had any clue about how the game is played. I have met pretty much all EU Protoss in Challenger/Premier League and half of them skip Probe scout and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing before their first obs or Hallucination flies over my base. Show nested quote +MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily. Really? How about you gain some basic knowledge before constantly spouting random nonsense? Yes? Name them?
Okay, I was wrong on the nexus cannon, I thought it was more like 45 seconds but it was 60 seconds. Boo-hoo. At least I have the guts to admit I was wrong unlike you who refuse to see a broken matchup.
Double proxy barracks, early reapers can all come before MSC timing. The most important thing is, not coming before the MSC comes out, but coming before MSC has enough energy for the nexus cannon.
Anyway, why would a Terran need to early game cheese Protoss when they can triple expand in the beginning safely thanks to repair and salvage bunkers? I forgot you can expand in-base and fly your OC to your expansion..a luxury that Protoss and Zergs dont have with their hatcheries / nexus
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On August 02 2013 00:54 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 19:13 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:50 Shiori wrote:
The idea of removing CC lifting/MULEs/Ghosts is absolutely absurd. The game would be cheese or die in every matchup, since you wouldn't be able to expand early (since even a reactive all-in would kill you) and you wouldn't be able to win late (no Ghosts vs Toss late = just leave the game) and you also would have a lot less production since you don't have MULEs. So basically, Terran would be more or less fucked all around. Ghosts: You're simply exaggerating. I've seen Terran compete at the highest level without using any ghosts. If Terrans can beat Rain without ghosts (and they do), then it's absurd to suggest that Terran will die every matchup. Because they won't. The issue is whether they'd keep their 50% or higher win rate. But here you're committing yourself to the position that Terrans will NEVER figure out a way to defeat templar without using ghosts. Which might one day be refuted. Time will tell. Show nested quote +CC lifting: You haven't spelled out why Terran uniquely depends on the ability to lift its bases. Are you saying Terran is more vulnerable to early game cheese than Protoss? Because it definitely wasn't true in WoL when CC lifting was designed, and I'm not convinced it's true now. Enlighten me: Why does Terran have a special need for flying CCs, but not Protoss or Zerg? Why does Protoss have a special need for warping structures/Pylon power fields/warp gate? Why does Zerg depend on injects and creep and Overlords? There's no objective reason; it's just the way the game is. If you simply removed CC lifting from the current incarnation of Terran, how exactly do you want Terrans to play? Should they just accept a build order loss against all-ins? Or should they play ultra-super-safe and lose to any economical build? The reason Zerg/Protoss don't have this problem is that Protoss openings in PvT (1Gate FE or some variation) are both safe and reasonably economical while Zerg openings are flexible given the way injects work. Terran, on the other hand, doesn't really have any parallel safeguards outside of Bunkers, lifting CCs, and augmented production by Reactors. Again, how do you envision Terran players holding Blink all-ins if they can't lift their CCs? How about Roach all-ins? Show nested quote +Mules: This sounds absurd, I agree, but ask yourself: Why should Terran be able to miner faster than the other races? In terms of mining mules are far more effective than chrono boost overall and even Zerg's larvae production in the long run. They already have a worker advantage from being able to spam flying CCs. So maybe EITHER mules or flying CCs could go and the Terrans would be able to adapt. No. Terran can't produce 7 workers at a time like Zerg can,
I would rather have free workers that mine more rather than the ability to produce a lot by paying a lot and taking up supply.
Protoss needs warp-ins because their units are weaker.
Zerg need creep because they don't have a maphack-click scan.
Protoss needs to warp-in buildings because they have a more costly tech tree and longer path to take.
Terran needs lift because? They can get away with 3 fast OC in-base macro openings and absolutely macro-crush their opponents.
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On August 01 2013 20:40 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great So luxury, in other words. Protoss doesn't match the Zerg economy and still finds a way to win. You haven't spelled out a single objective reason why Terran needs the fast 3 base more than Protoss would. And in any case it remains a perfectly valid choice for the Terran to not go fast 3 CC.
PvZ was below 50% 25 from 28 last months. Protoss finds way to win but that matchup is historically Zerg favoured.
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Honestly, the nexus cannon does lead to some really shitty unscoutable opener roulette in PvX matches.
In PvZ, you can forge expand or gateway expand. Forge expand is pretty safe, but Zerg has had three years to learn all the timings and you are completely predictable for the first 10 minutes of the game. Or you can gateway expand and mix things up, Zerg can't take their third as quick......but if they go 3 hatch before pool you're just screwed. You're far behind in econ, you can't cannon them, and you don't have +1 so they can defend any early aggression with pure zerglings. Of course, if they try 3 hatch against FFE you can just cannon them or +1 4gate and easily win.
In PvT, Terran can do a rax, CC, CC, dual engi build order. This gives them a gigantic advantage against any standard play but dies badly to many allins. Or they can do 2 rax before CC to crush every conceivable allin, but are now themselves very behind against standard play.
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On August 02 2013 02:25 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 23:31 GhostOwl wrote:
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe? Skipping Probe scout is common in PvT, and you would know that if you had any clue about how the game is played. I have met pretty much all EU Protoss in Challenger/Premier League and half of them skip Probe scout and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing before their first obs or Hallucination flies over my base. MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily. Really? How about you gain some basic knowledge before constantly spouting random nonsense? There are cheese u can do before MSC timing. Yes? Name them? Okay, I was wrong on the nexus cannon, I thought it was more like 45 seconds but it was 60 seconds. Boo-hoo. At least I have the guts to admit I was wrong unlike you who refuse to see a broken matchup. Double proxy barracks, early reapers can all come before MSC timing. The most important thing is, not coming before the MSC comes out, but coming before MSC has enough energy for the nexus cannon. Anyway, why would a Terran need to early game cheese Protoss when they can triple expand in the beginning safely thanks to repair and salvage bunkers? I forgot you can expand in-base and fly your OC to your expansion..a luxury that Protoss and Zergs dont have with their hatcheries / nexus
I read the previous page of this thread, and find this post. I now do not believe you have the ability to read.
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On August 02 2013 02:32 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 00:54 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2013 19:13 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:50 Shiori wrote:
The idea of removing CC lifting/MULEs/Ghosts is absolutely absurd. The game would be cheese or die in every matchup, since you wouldn't be able to expand early (since even a reactive all-in would kill you) and you wouldn't be able to win late (no Ghosts vs Toss late = just leave the game) and you also would have a lot less production since you don't have MULEs. So basically, Terran would be more or less fucked all around. Ghosts: You're simply exaggerating. I've seen Terran compete at the highest level without using any ghosts. If Terrans can beat Rain without ghosts (and they do), then it's absurd to suggest that Terran will die every matchup. Because they won't. The issue is whether they'd keep their 50% or higher win rate. But here you're committing yourself to the position that Terrans will NEVER figure out a way to defeat templar without using ghosts. Which might one day be refuted. Time will tell. CC lifting: You haven't spelled out why Terran uniquely depends on the ability to lift its bases. Are you saying Terran is more vulnerable to early game cheese than Protoss? Because it definitely wasn't true in WoL when CC lifting was designed, and I'm not convinced it's true now. Enlighten me: Why does Terran have a special need for flying CCs, but not Protoss or Zerg? Why does Protoss have a special need for warping structures/Pylon power fields/warp gate? Why does Zerg depend on injects and creep and Overlords? There's no objective reason; it's just the way the game is. If you simply removed CC lifting from the current incarnation of Terran, how exactly do you want Terrans to play? Should they just accept a build order loss against all-ins? Or should they play ultra-super-safe and lose to any economical build? The reason Zerg/Protoss don't have this problem is that Protoss openings in PvT (1Gate FE or some variation) are both safe and reasonably economical while Zerg openings are flexible given the way injects work. Terran, on the other hand, doesn't really have any parallel safeguards outside of Bunkers, lifting CCs, and augmented production by Reactors. Again, how do you envision Terran players holding Blink all-ins if they can't lift their CCs? How about Roach all-ins? Mules: This sounds absurd, I agree, but ask yourself: Why should Terran be able to miner faster than the other races? In terms of mining mules are far more effective than chrono boost overall and even Zerg's larvae production in the long run. They already have a worker advantage from being able to spam flying CCs. So maybe EITHER mules or flying CCs could go and the Terrans would be able to adapt. No. Terran can't produce 7 workers at a time like Zerg can, I would rather have free workers that mine more rather than the ability to produce a lot by paying a lot and taking up supply. Protoss needs warp-ins because their units are weaker. Zerg need creep because they don't have a maphack-click scan. Protoss needs to warp-in buildings because they have a more costly tech tree and longer path to take. Terran needs lift because? They can get away with 3 fast OC in-base macro openings and absolutely macro-crush their opponents.
2010 called, they want their map hack scan Terran imba argument back.
Gateway units weaker? Lolwut 2/2/0 chargealot/blink stalker/HT will shred any MMM w/o ghosts any day of the week.
You really are that clueless. You remind me of the classmate who would argue with the electronics professor who basically invented the modern motherboard when he was with a US manufacturing giant.
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On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc.
Your entire post history is nothing but the most ridiculous, biased, crybaby nonsense I've ever seen in this thread, which is really quite something. For you to accuse pretty much anyone of being intellectually dishonest is pretty hilarious when you yourself are such a shining example of that very thing. As for getting into actual game discussion with you, what's the point? You live in a fairy tale world where EMP isn't needed and Protoss players are a bunch of Stephen Hawkings and Terrans are just monkeys who can press buttons fast. I couldn't have a productive discussion with you if I tried.
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On August 02 2013 02:40 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:32 GhostOwl wrote:On August 02 2013 00:54 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2013 19:13 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:50 Shiori wrote:
The idea of removing CC lifting/MULEs/Ghosts is absolutely absurd. The game would be cheese or die in every matchup, since you wouldn't be able to expand early (since even a reactive all-in would kill you) and you wouldn't be able to win late (no Ghosts vs Toss late = just leave the game) and you also would have a lot less production since you don't have MULEs. So basically, Terran would be more or less fucked all around. Ghosts: You're simply exaggerating. I've seen Terran compete at the highest level without using any ghosts. If Terrans can beat Rain without ghosts (and they do), then it's absurd to suggest that Terran will die every matchup. Because they won't. The issue is whether they'd keep their 50% or higher win rate. But here you're committing yourself to the position that Terrans will NEVER figure out a way to defeat templar without using ghosts. Which might one day be refuted. Time will tell. CC lifting: You haven't spelled out why Terran uniquely depends on the ability to lift its bases. Are you saying Terran is more vulnerable to early game cheese than Protoss? Because it definitely wasn't true in WoL when CC lifting was designed, and I'm not convinced it's true now. Enlighten me: Why does Terran have a special need for flying CCs, but not Protoss or Zerg? Why does Protoss have a special need for warping structures/Pylon power fields/warp gate? Why does Zerg depend on injects and creep and Overlords? There's no objective reason; it's just the way the game is. If you simply removed CC lifting from the current incarnation of Terran, how exactly do you want Terrans to play? Should they just accept a build order loss against all-ins? Or should they play ultra-super-safe and lose to any economical build? The reason Zerg/Protoss don't have this problem is that Protoss openings in PvT (1Gate FE or some variation) are both safe and reasonably economical while Zerg openings are flexible given the way injects work. Terran, on the other hand, doesn't really have any parallel safeguards outside of Bunkers, lifting CCs, and augmented production by Reactors. Again, how do you envision Terran players holding Blink all-ins if they can't lift their CCs? How about Roach all-ins? Mules: This sounds absurd, I agree, but ask yourself: Why should Terran be able to miner faster than the other races? In terms of mining mules are far more effective than chrono boost overall and even Zerg's larvae production in the long run. They already have a worker advantage from being able to spam flying CCs. So maybe EITHER mules or flying CCs could go and the Terrans would be able to adapt. No. Terran can't produce 7 workers at a time like Zerg can, I would rather have free workers that mine more rather than the ability to produce a lot by paying a lot and taking up supply. Protoss needs warp-ins because their units are weaker. Zerg need creep because they don't have a maphack-click scan. Protoss needs to warp-in buildings because they have a more costly tech tree and longer path to take. Terran needs lift because? They can get away with 3 fast OC in-base macro openings and absolutely macro-crush their opponents. 2010 called, they want their map hack scan Terran imba argument back. Gateway units weaker? Lolwut 2/2/0 chargealot/blink stalker/HT will shred any MMM w/o ghosts any day of the week. You really are that clueless. You remind me of the classmate who would argue with the electronics professor who basically invented the modern motherboard when he was with a US manufacturing giant.
Hattori you have the strangest choice in analogies.
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On August 02 2013 02:25 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 23:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 23:31 GhostOwl wrote:
Your points are always bloated and untrue its not even funny. Protoss still has to scout and DO scout every game. Look at Pro PvTs, how many games do Protoss players not send out a early scouting probe? Skipping Probe scout is common in PvT, and you would know that if you had any clue about how the game is played. I have met pretty much all EU Protoss in Challenger/Premier League and half of them skip Probe scout and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing before their first obs or Hallucination flies over my base. MSC does not protect vs everything, Nexus cannon actually doesnt take a full minute to expire so you can wait it out easily. Really? How about you gain some basic knowledge before constantly spouting random nonsense? There are cheese u can do before MSC timing. Yes? Name them? Okay, I was wrong on the nexus cannon, I thought it was more like 45 seconds but it was 60 seconds. Boo-hoo. At least I have the guts to admit I was wrong unlike you who refuse to see a broken matchup. Double proxy barracks, early reapers can all come before MSC timing. The most important thing is, not coming before the MSC comes out, but coming before MSC has enough energy for the nexus cannon. Anyway, why would a Terran need to early game cheese Protoss when they can triple expand in the beginning safely thanks to repair and salvage bunkers? I forgot you can expand in-base and fly your OC to your expansion..a luxury that Protoss and Zergs dont have with their hatcheries / nexus
Excuse me, what league are you in ? Silver EU ? Or Platinum NA ? Once a MSC comes out it has energy to cast photon cannon immediately. Please leave this thread to people who actually knows anything about the game. Double proxy rax, early reapers, please FIND ME A GAME WHEN ANY TERRAN USED IT. I MEAN AT LEAST HIGH MASTER TERRAN.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm quite confused reading last posts in this thread. Today we got winrates with every matchup being close to 50% and i see poeple proposing removing mules, ghost, cc lift. I mean what is going on. For example removing cc lift changes so much for Terran in so many scenarios.
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On August 02 2013 02:56 Marjosz wrote:
Excuse me, what league are you in ? Silver EU ? Or Platinum NA ? Once a MSC comes out it has energy to cast photon cannon immediately. Please leave this thread to people who actually knows anything about the game. Double proxy rax, early reapers, please FIND ME A GAME WHEN ANY TERRAN USED IT. I MEAN AT LEAST HIGH MASTER TERRAN.
If this is a troll post you're doing a phenomenal job.
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Point me troll on this post. You're outta here, right now.
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On August 02 2013 03:05 Marjosz wrote:
Point me troll on this post. You're outta here, right now.
Mothershipcore doesn't start with enough energy for photon overcharge. That being said, 8-8-8 is complete allin vs Protoss and so is 11/11. Its not just simple cheese and not effective by any means, thats why we see it rarely if at all. Also, I can SAFELY take 3 ccs? In what world do you live in?
lol
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On August 02 2013 02:21 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 01:52 forsooth wrote:I don't think a more ironic comment can be found anywhere on this website. How is it ironic? Name a single point on which I have been dishonest. 3 CCs being a luxury rather than necessity? Vindicated by other commenters. Terran being able to win without ghosts? Borne out by experience time and time again. Etc.
It's not a matter of dishonest, since the only "fact-based" claims you're making are unrealistic counterfactuals, e.g. "what if Terran didn't have ghosts?"
I assume you want Terran to do what they frequently do against HTs, which is to mass bio and try to avoid storms. The problem is, every Terran and every Protoss in the world will acknowledge that if Terran doesn't get ghosts against HTs, he's on a timer. A colossus-HT army gets to be too strong to beat unless you have ghosts to take care of HTs. So without ghosts in the game, Protoss could get masses of HTs, clump them as freely as they like, and storm constantly. The more templar you have, the less of a sacrifice each storm is, so you could easily afford to do wasteful storms which only damage a few bio, or which only zone the bio out, or which damage your zealots as much as they damage the bio. That'd be fine.
For 2/3 of WoL Terrans didn't take fast 3CC because for 2/3 of WoL, they could prevent a Zerg from taking a fast third by using hellions. And practically every game, they did. Of course, for 2/3 of WoL Zerg played things like 2-base muta against Terran, so you were fine on a two-base economy. Remember, this is back when things like tank pushes actually worked in 2-base vs. 2-base situations. No longer.
Terran cannot, however, sit on two-base for a long time against Zerg 3-base the way Protoss often does, because Terran is not Protoss. This was all figured out a little over a year ago when the queen patch hit. It was no longer possible to deny the Zerg third base, but taking fast 3CC tended to die to roach/bane all-ins, so Terrans were looking for 2-base options to compete. The problem was, short of some all-ins, there weren't any. That is, you could make 5-6 tanks and a bunch of bio off of 2 bases, plant the tanks at the Zerg's ramp on Daybreak, and maybe kill his 3-base economy worth of units with tanks and a good choke. But that wasn't viable on most maps, and even on Daybreak all it took was a good flank or decent creep spread to prevent that.
Point is, you're talking about removing massive pieces of the Terran design with nothing more than "well Protoss can win without it!" or "I've seen Terrans win without even using that mechanic" as basis. Neither of those are legitimate ways to discuss balance (for example, I've seen a hell of a lot of Protoss win games without once using robo, templar, OR stargate tech, so clearly all of those could be removed!)
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On August 02 2013 03:11 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 03:05 Marjosz wrote:
Point me troll on this post. You're outta here, right now. Mothershipcore doesn't start with enough energy for photon overcharge. That being said, 8-8-8 is complete allin vs Protoss and so is 11/11. Its not just simple cheese and not effective by any means, thats why we see it rarely if at all. Also, I can SAFELY take 3 ccs? In what world do you live in? lol
Yep ... people assume that Terrans who have 3 CCs also have 3 bases mining and ignore the fact that the 3rd CC is completed minutes before it actually floats toward the base.
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On August 02 2013 04:37 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 03:11 NarutO wrote:On August 02 2013 03:05 Marjosz wrote:
Point me troll on this post. You're outta here, right now. Mothershipcore doesn't start with enough energy for photon overcharge. That being said, 8-8-8 is complete allin vs Protoss and so is 11/11. Its not just simple cheese and not effective by any means, thats why we see it rarely if at all. Also, I can SAFELY take 3 ccs? In what world do you live in? lol Yep ... people assume that Terrans who have 3 CCs also have 3 bases mining and ignore the fact that the 3rd CC is completed minutes before it actually floats toward the base.
Thats not my point. The orbital is benefitial even inbase, but I can safely take it? What is this bullshit. There's tons of builds that can be a reaction and punish me insanely hard.
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On August 02 2013 02:25 GhostOwl wrote:
Okay, I was wrong on the nexus cannon, I thought it was more like 45 seconds but it was 60 seconds. Boo-hoo. At least I have the guts to admit I was wrong unlike you who refuse to see a broken matchup.
You might be interested in learning the difference between a fact and an opinion. Props for trying to salvage your ignorance into a random accusation, though.
Double proxy barracks, early reapers can all come before MSC timing. The most important thing is, not coming before the MSC comes out, but coming before MSC has enough energy for the nexus cannon.
11/11 is completely nullified by Probe pull + chrono'ing 2 zeals (then stalks) and building a MSC. Proxy Reapers can kill at most 2 Probes if Protoss defends them right. Is this all you have for pre-PO TvP cheeses? A build order loss to Probe scout and a mosquito sting?
Anyway, why would a Terran need to early game cheese Protoss when they can triple expand in the beginning safely thanks to repair and salvage bunkers? I forgot you can expand in-base and fly your OC to your expansion..a luxury that Protoss and Zergs dont have with their hatcheries / nexus
Perhaps in your secret alternative version of the game Terran can triple OC safely against Protoss, but in reality (the thing which actually matters) such builds auto-lose to committed 2-bases timings hitting quickly enough because the third OC means delayed production. Ask SuperNova if the paper buildings you describe as unbreakable fortresses mattered against simple stalks warp-ins. Building bunks doesn't actually auto-fill them, you know. Repair? Meet  Force Field, and Time Warp to add insult to injury (1,406 ms SCVs not so good to go quickly from one bunk to another). Not to mention threats bypassing terrain such as Blink or Prisms attacks.
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On August 02 2013 04:47 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:37 Rabiator wrote:On August 02 2013 03:11 NarutO wrote:On August 02 2013 03:05 Marjosz wrote:
Point me troll on this post. You're outta here, right now. Mothershipcore doesn't start with enough energy for photon overcharge. That being said, 8-8-8 is complete allin vs Protoss and so is 11/11. Its not just simple cheese and not effective by any means, thats why we see it rarely if at all. Also, I can SAFELY take 3 ccs? In what world do you live in? lol Yep ... people assume that Terrans who have 3 CCs also have 3 bases mining and ignore the fact that the 3rd CC is completed minutes before it actually floats toward the base. Thats not my point. The orbital is benefitial even inbase, but I can safely take it? What is this bullshit. There's tons of builds that can be a reaction and punish me insanely hard.
Obviously, but due to the ability of the OC to speed up the mineral gathering that "window of vulnerability" is of limited duration. It takes roughly 2 MULEs to make up for the minerals spent in creating the third OC (including the minerals lost for the SCV building it). So the whole window starts when you begin building the CC and ends after the second MULE dropped by the third has finished gathering its resources.
Spending 400 minerals on a CC OR on two Barracks (and some Marines) is quite a difference and one is greedy (and risky / punishable) while the other is "safer" (for the moment only though). This difference is the same for all three races ...
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On August 02 2013 02:32 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 00:54 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2013 19:13 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:50 Shiori wrote:
The idea of removing CC lifting/MULEs/Ghosts is absolutely absurd. The game would be cheese or die in every matchup, since you wouldn't be able to expand early (since even a reactive all-in would kill you) and you wouldn't be able to win late (no Ghosts vs Toss late = just leave the game) and you also would have a lot less production since you don't have MULEs. So basically, Terran would be more or less fucked all around. Ghosts: You're simply exaggerating. I've seen Terran compete at the highest level without using any ghosts. If Terrans can beat Rain without ghosts (and they do), then it's absurd to suggest that Terran will die every matchup. Because they won't. The issue is whether they'd keep their 50% or higher win rate. But here you're committing yourself to the position that Terrans will NEVER figure out a way to defeat templar without using ghosts. Which might one day be refuted. Time will tell. CC lifting: You haven't spelled out why Terran uniquely depends on the ability to lift its bases. Are you saying Terran is more vulnerable to early game cheese than Protoss? Because it definitely wasn't true in WoL when CC lifting was designed, and I'm not convinced it's true now. Enlighten me: Why does Terran have a special need for flying CCs, but not Protoss or Zerg? Why does Protoss have a special need for warping structures/Pylon power fields/warp gate? Why does Zerg depend on injects and creep and Overlords? There's no objective reason; it's just the way the game is. If you simply removed CC lifting from the current incarnation of Terran, how exactly do you want Terrans to play? Should they just accept a build order loss against all-ins? Or should they play ultra-super-safe and lose to any economical build? The reason Zerg/Protoss don't have this problem is that Protoss openings in PvT (1Gate FE or some variation) are both safe and reasonably economical while Zerg openings are flexible given the way injects work. Terran, on the other hand, doesn't really have any parallel safeguards outside of Bunkers, lifting CCs, and augmented production by Reactors. Again, how do you envision Terran players holding Blink all-ins if they can't lift their CCs? How about Roach all-ins? Mules: This sounds absurd, I agree, but ask yourself: Why should Terran be able to miner faster than the other races? In terms of mining mules are far more effective than chrono boost overall and even Zerg's larvae production in the long run. They already have a worker advantage from being able to spam flying CCs. So maybe EITHER mules or flying CCs could go and the Terrans would be able to adapt. No. Terran can't produce 7 workers at a time like Zerg can, I would rather have free workers that mine more rather than the ability to produce a lot by paying a lot and taking up supply. Protoss needs warp-ins because their units are weaker. Zerg need creep because they don't have a maphack-click scan. Protoss needs to warp-in buildings because they have a more costly tech tree and longer path to take. Terran needs lift because? They can get away with 3 fast OC in-base macro openings and absolutely macro-crush their opponents.
Individually Protoss units are the strongest ... when compared to their counterparts from the other races. It is only the amount of units and the tighter stacking of Marines and Zerglings which makes them weaker.
None of the things you claim are "needed" are really needed ... and BW showed that. These things are only necessary in the context of the current "high economy and production speed boosts" game design. The units themselves dont require these general mechanics and the game works without them ... as BW showed.
Floating buildings is just the Terran gimmick to make up for requiring a worker to spend the whole time constructing each and every one of them and it has been like that since BW (and no one whined back then about it ...). Warp-in is just a Protoss gimmick just as creep tumors are, but they are not necessary. Zerg could easily "map hack" with Overlords, so your argument seems a little bit hollow as is the implied "Terran always has energy to scan and obviously never needs to MULE".
Protoss might have "the longest tech route", but they just need one probe to build everything AND they have Chronoboost to speed up their tech.
A "limited" and rather biased selection of the racial abilities is not a good basis to start talking about things and makes your post sound rather like a whine. If you want to talk about racial gimmicks you need to include ALL from all three races and not just cherry pick whatever suits your argument and then add broad claims.
P.S.: I would rather have the ability to "stockpile production capability for free" which can be used on any unit I want to create ...
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On August 02 2013 05:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:47 NarutO wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Rabiator wrote:On August 02 2013 03:11 NarutO wrote:On August 02 2013 03:05 Marjosz wrote:
Point me troll on this post. You're outta here, right now. Mothershipcore doesn't start with enough energy for photon overcharge. That being said, 8-8-8 is complete allin vs Protoss and so is 11/11. Its not just simple cheese and not effective by any means, thats why we see it rarely if at all. Also, I can SAFELY take 3 ccs? In what world do you live in? lol Yep ... people assume that Terrans who have 3 CCs also have 3 bases mining and ignore the fact that the 3rd CC is completed minutes before it actually floats toward the base. Thats not my point. The orbital is benefitial even inbase, but I can safely take it? What is this bullshit. There's tons of builds that can be a reaction and punish me insanely hard. Obviously, but due to the ability of the OC to speed up the mineral gathering that "window of vulnerability" is of limited duration. It takes roughly 2 MULEs to make up for the minerals spent in creating the third OC (including the minerals lost for the SCV building it). So the whole window starts when you begin building the CC and ends after the second MULE dropped by the third has finished gathering its resources. Spending 400 minerals on a CC OR on two Barracks (and some Marines) is quite a difference and one is greedy (and risky / punishable) while the other is "safer" (for the moment only though). This difference is the same for all three races ...
Its wrong. You spend the 400 minerals to get another CC, you could have started two barracks earlier than that so the delay / window is not from building the CC to the second mule. It will accelerate at some point, but your timing is delayed by it. There are enough builds that can take advantage of it so its not safe by any means. You make it sound like there's a ~20 second timing you would have to hit.
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EPT
