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On August 02 2013 05:38 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:35 scypio wrote:On August 02 2013 05:31 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:On August 02 2013 05:26 GreenGringo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:21 ChristianS wrote:
I assume you want Terran to do what they frequently do against HTs, which is to mass bio and try to avoid storms. The problem is, every Terran and every Protoss in the world will acknowledge that if Terran doesn't get ghosts against HTs, he's on a timer. A colossus-HT army gets to be too strong to beat unless you have ghosts to take care of HTs. So without ghosts in the game, Protoss could get masses of HTs, clump them as freely as they like, and storm constantly. The more templar you have, the less of a sacrifice each storm is, so you could easily afford to do wasteful storms which only damage a few bio, or which only zone the bio out, or which damage your zealots as much as they damage the bio. That'd be fine.
No, not really. The timer works both ways. Hang on too long and the Terran can spam as many CCs as he likes, put planetaries everywhere, add Ravens to his army, and increase his army by 50 supply by killing SCVs and relying on an mule-only economy. The question is whether Terran can weather the storm. I see no reason why they can't if they play sufficiently cleverly and carefully. But maybe that's a foreign concept to the dumbed-down race. Please link me to HotS high level games (any premier tournament will do) where this happened. How many times have you seen a terran do a Raven transition in HotS? I think I'm at 0. How many times have I seen a Terran with an IQ over 120? Probably a couple, and one of them is MVP. Ravens are just obviously a unit they should be using. In WoL these guys couldn't even figure out that spamming bunkers counters every all-in from Protoss. Except MVP, and he won multiple GSLs. You're delusional. You imagine in your head a T making a super-late-game raven transition vs Protoss and this is something that has never happend throughout the lifespan of HotS at the pro level. You say "Mvp" and I only recall one game where he did it (that Metropolis)... and lost. Well done. It's hardly a "transition" any more than Protoss adding a mothership was a transition in WoL. It's simply that the dumbed down race isn't prepared to push themselves to a certain level because they'd rather not. They should be using Ravens. Those units are simply ridiculous.
It is a transition. It requires the T to get extra starports with tech labs, armory, another set of air upgrades, possibly raven energy upgrade, durable materials, building armor...
after all this you end up with a flying feedback rod that is one-shot by ht's and deals minimal amount of damage vs archons... oh, and you can't emp them.
Yeah, this is just like building MCS that is loved by every protoss in the world and is always on their standard tech path.
Please stop.
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Aww, boo hoo, Terran needs to get a starport with a tech lab. Who the fuck said anything about upgrades? That's like saying Protoss can't produce archons unless they have shield upgrades. And maybe you haven't realized, but ravens are far more cost efficient than HTs if the Terran player has any decent splitting. Seeker missile is guaranteed damage whereas storm isn't.
You're right, I'll stop. Too much dishonesty. You all know perfectly well that Terrans can beat Protoss with just some good splitting, even in the current meta-game. And there's whole layers of meta-game that haven't been broken by players of the dumbed-down race with emergency supply depots. (But judging by the standards in this thread, some bright spark will come forward with the argument that OMG WE WILL DIE WITHOUT EMERGENCY SUPPLY DEPOTS!!!)
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On August 02 2013 05:50 GreenGringo wrote:
Aww, boo hoo, Terran needs to get a starport with a tech lab. Who the fuck said anything about upgrades? That's like saying Protoss can't produce archons unless they have shield upgrades.
Jeez, wouldn't kill you to stop acting like an annoying child when people disagree with you.
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On August 02 2013 05:56 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:50 GreenGringo wrote:
Aww, boo hoo, Terran needs to get a starport with a tech lab. Who the fuck said anything about upgrades? That's like saying Protoss can't produce archons unless they have shield upgrades. Jeez, wouldn't kill you to stop acting like an annoying child when people disagree with you. For the record, I've been insulted AT LEAST as much as they've insulted me. But maybe Terrans expect special treatment even on that front.
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Green you are honestly only here to let your rage out about getting destroyed by Terran players..... This is a legitimate discussion not your "temper tantrum" time. It's players like you that ruin things like this for everyone.... Let the masses suffer for the one person that threw a fit.
The reality is if you are having that much trouble maybe you should be on the Protoss Help me thread and not in the balance discussion thread where the big boys play k?
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On August 02 2013 06:02 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:56 MstrJinbo wrote:On August 02 2013 05:50 GreenGringo wrote:
Aww, boo hoo, Terran needs to get a starport with a tech lab. Who the fuck said anything about upgrades? That's like saying Protoss can't produce archons unless they have shield upgrades. Jeez, wouldn't kill you to stop acting like an annoying child when people disagree with you. For the record, I've been insulted AT LEAST as much as they've insulted me. But maybe Terrans expect special treatment even on that front.
I don't see why you need to insult every terran player for that.
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On August 02 2013 06:02 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:56 MstrJinbo wrote:On August 02 2013 05:50 GreenGringo wrote:
Aww, boo hoo, Terran needs to get a starport with a tech lab. Who the fuck said anything about upgrades? That's like saying Protoss can't produce archons unless they have shield upgrades. Jeez, wouldn't kill you to stop acting like an annoying child when people disagree with you. For the record, I've been insulted AT LEAST as much as they've insulted me. But maybe Terrans expect special treatment even on that front.
Are you for real? Ravens against Protoss?
Bwahahahahahahahaha.
You have clearly never built a supply depot my good sir.
Honestly, I wish ravens were a good tactic late game against P. I really do. Unfortunately they are not.
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When I've gotten really far ahead I've used Ravens but man its a struggle you have to use Ravens / ghosts / vikings and put down PFs and if you can micro it ... its the dance of death but tbh its not easy to pull off and it can ONLY be done when you are ahead....
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If you are able to max out on Raven/BC/Ghost you should be able to beat anything, since its probably the most expensive army in the game. However, if you've been allowed the time and resources to do that, you had likely won the game beforehand anyway, and were just wasting time.
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On August 02 2013 06:26 Green_25 wrote:
If you are able to max out on Raven/BC/Ghost you should be able to beat anything, since its probably the most expensive army in the game. However, if you've been allowed the time and resources to do that, you had likely won the game beforehand anyway, and were just wasting time.
You can't use ghost because they are OP. Would like to find out how would Raven BC fare vs Archon/HT/Tempest? 
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On August 02 2013 06:26 Green_25 wrote:
If you are able to max out on Raven/BC/Ghost you should be able to beat anything, since its probably the most expensive army in the game. However, if you've been allowed the time and resources to do that, you had likely won the game beforehand anyway, and were just wasting time.
And as it happens, you still wouldn't win without the ghosts there against P. I've played a fair amount of skyterran TvP, and without something to stop feedback you might as well skip the ravens entirely, and the BCs lose most of their value, too. Yamato is the only way BC's can beat void rays.
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On August 02 2013 06:31 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 06:26 Green_25 wrote:
If you are able to max out on Raven/BC/Ghost you should be able to beat anything, since its probably the most expensive army in the game. However, if you've been allowed the time and resources to do that, you had likely won the game beforehand anyway, and were just wasting time. You can't use ghost because they are OP. Would like to find out how would Raven BC fare vs Archon/HT/Tempest?
''I swear I had an army somewhere....''
That is how I see it working. =P Probably not too far off.
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As an avid watcher of Demuslim (who does have amazing splits vs storms), I have to say, he does add ghosts to his composition now after trying to get away without and dying a bunch, so that claim that he does without is just plain wrong too.
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What's the problem with adding Ghosts? Are we trying to make Terran play without Ghosts viable here? That's like whining that Protoss needs to be buffed as a whole because it can't beat mid/late game Bio without 4+ Colossus or mass HT. Funnily enough, Terran play without Ghosts is a lot closer to viable than Protoss play without High Templars.
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On August 02 2013 07:50 xyzz wrote:
What's the problem with adding Ghosts? Are we trying to make Terran play without Ghosts viable here? That's like whining that Protoss needs to be buffed as a whole because it can't beat mid/late game Bio without 4+ Colossus or mass HT.
No, just GreenGringo decided to start arguing Terran win rates would be fine without ghosts, or the ability to lift command centers, or MULEs. Then everyone else in the thread told him that's crazy. Now he's gone for a little while, so we can hopefully get off the topic
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On August 02 2013 07:52 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 07:50 xyzz wrote:
What's the problem with adding Ghosts? Are we trying to make Terran play without Ghosts viable here? That's like whining that Protoss needs to be buffed as a whole because it can't beat mid/late game Bio without 4+ Colossus or mass HT. No, just GreenGringo decided to start arguing Terran win rates would be fine without ghosts, or the ability to lift command centers, or MULEs. Then everyone else in the thread told him that's crazy. Now he's gone for a little while, so we can hopefully get off the topic
I guess that's how some of you guys want to deal with anyone who argues against Terran benefits. Report him and hope he's banned.
All those things together gone would not be okay, but they do have a fundamental problem and they need to be addressed. He didn't put it into the prettiest of words, but they are indeed unnecessary advantages Terran has.
For example, some Terrans will deny that having all your buildings lift off gives you a timing/safety/opening build advantage. But no one can deny that ability to lift your buildings gives you a unfair base trade advantage. I heard someone say "different race is different" as an answer, but why does Terran need to get a base trade advantage even though its different?
I really wish, at the very least, that the ability to lift was a 200/200 tech upgrade that needed to be researched available at Orbital.
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On August 02 2013 08:10 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 07:52 ChristianS wrote:On August 02 2013 07:50 xyzz wrote:
What's the problem with adding Ghosts? Are we trying to make Terran play without Ghosts viable here? That's like whining that Protoss needs to be buffed as a whole because it can't beat mid/late game Bio without 4+ Colossus or mass HT. No, just GreenGringo decided to start arguing Terran win rates would be fine without ghosts, or the ability to lift command centers, or MULEs. Then everyone else in the thread told him that's crazy. Now he's gone for a little while, so we can hopefully get off the topic I guess that's how some of you guys want to deal with anyone who argues against Terran benefits. Report him and hope he's banned. All those things together gone would not be okay, but they do have a fundamental problem and they need to be addressed. He didn't put it into the prettiest of words, but they are indeed unnecessary advantages Terran has. For example, some Terrans will deny that having all your buildings lift off gives you a timing/safety/opening build advantage. But no one can deny that ability to lift your buildings gives you a unfair base trade advantage. I heard someone say "different race is different" as an answer, but why does Terran need to get a base trade advantage even though its different? I really wish, at the very least, that the ability to lift was a 200/200 tech upgrade that needed to be researched available at Orbital.
Not being able to swap addons would make terran production way to inflexible.
Compared to the other races terran already have a though time to fend to certain allins (mainly from protoss) and in some situations it is required you are able to lift your cc to not loose immediately.
There is nothing wrong to have the opinion that terran is to strong (this is a balance thread after all) but you and GreenGringo come with way to anti terran suggestions that makes it pretty clear that you can't keep an objective discussion here.
I will try to not respond to either of you again.
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So basically, GhostOwl. You want to remove the thing that EVERY terran build is centered around, so the builds well planned and imrpoved by progamers since nearly 3 years, and therefore what is making the balance around 50% right now?
Seems legit. Altough I can understand the basetrade advantage. But as early agression is pretty much down in any TvX match-up, Basetrades occurs very, very rarely, in fact, practically never, haven't seen one in, well maybe months or even a year. I even never played one on ladder outside of TvT.
Make the lifting an upgrade. Well, why not. But you will need to buff nearly every units, as Terran won't be able to go 3 CC and will do 2 bases timings that just, well don't work with the current units? You will have to add something that make add-ons builds on the side you want, otherwise Wall can't be made or you just loose just half a rax.
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Not allowing terran to lift the building is craaaazy in my opinion, that would be the bigger nerf in SC2 history and you would destroy all terran build. Even if this rule only apply to CC terran winrate would drop to zero in two weaks, why are we even discussing it?
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Can't we just drop this current conversation? The whole subject of lifting buildings and ''OP'' MULEs is from 3 years ago and it should already be dead and buried by now.
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EPT
