Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 638

On August 01 2013 21:18 GreenGringo wrote:
You can read them yourself on Liquipedia. TvP, there's about five pieces of cheese in there. It doesn't include widow mines drops. It doesn't include the majority of bread-and-butter timings that hit around 11 minutes.

TvZ, there's so many that I can't count.

Really, it's absurd to say that Terran doesn't have any cheese.

On August 01 2013 21:21 TheDwf wrote:

I am saying it required a blunder for this kind of thing to occur. It wasn't "a free chance at accidentally winning the game" for the Terran, it was a mistake from the Zerg.

On August 01 2013 21:16 TheDwf wrote:

Ah, the good old argument of the mythical Hellion raid winning on its own, conveniently forgetting that Zerg could easily defend that kind of gamble with evos blocking the path, the Spine + Speedlings on top of the ramp to prevent Hellions from moving in the main. But whatever.

2-bases timings are vaguely playable against Zergs who don't know how to handle it, yes, which means they're technically no more than a gimmick (except pre-Hellbats nerf, because then Hellbats/Marauders was strong enough to equalize more reliably). If Zerg answers correctly, you end up massively behind.

On August 01 2013 21:41 Pursuit_ wrote:


I disagree, things like this happening were very rare at top levels (possibly with the exception of fungal + banelings, but only because of fungal rooting units from out of vision then banelings roll in without terran being able to do anything) because they had lots of practices against it and knew to specifically look out for it. But the slim possibility that it could happen makes the games far more entertaining (both to watch and to play).

On August 01 2013 21:12 NarutO wrote:


Any 2 base timing leaves you behind to begin with. In the earlier stages of Starcraft 2 such an attack could win or equalize the game. Nowadays it can either win or lose, so its flipping a coin. Its very rare the attack gets deflected with suffering economical damage but usually just unit trades which leaves the person (zerg) with the 3rd base far ahead.

On August 01 2013 21:55 Vanadiel wrote:


Nope. It leaves you behind if you miss your micro with it, ahead if you do damage with it, that's all it is. So yes, it's more harder since it's more unforgiving, but there is still a certain number of legit 2 base bio mines into a third base, which let you control the pace of the game from an earlier time. But I'll give you that it's harder to do, but you're more flipping a coin by going 3CC and hoping not to get cheesed than the other way around.

On August 01 2013 21:31 Big J wrote:
oh come on, you sound just like every zerg that argues that 3OC should always hold roach/bane convieniently.

Maybe check out Innovation vs Stephano from the last WoL GSL:
1-1 in macro games, 11/11 win by Innovation and 2times double factory hellion wins.

Or this seasons Flash vs Yugioh (or the other zerg in the group) on Newkirk, when Flash did a 2base push and just made Yugioh overcommit in defenses and then was even supply with a 3base roach/bling/ling push, which is usually 20-40supply ahead of a 3OC macro Terran build...

There is tons of that stuff around. Of course, if the zerg scouts it and reacts properly you get behind. That is a good thing. Zerg doesn't magically equalize by random pushes against a prepared Terran either.

The metagame is aggressive enough as it is. Kicking on the queen patch for making Terran 2base timings reliant on doing damage is just bullshit in HotS. But maybe you'd rather have a circlejerk about which patch made what impossible and what overpowered. OK, I'll start, roach to 2supply destroyed all of zergs tools to deal with reapers and hellions in WoL beta (lol). See how ridicolous such stuff sounds if you are on the other side of such shit arugments about a metagame/game from years ago?

On August 01 2013 21:27 Pursuit_ wrote:
You mean 5 rax marine, 1 rax reactor first, 1-1-1, maurader hellion? All of these are WoL builds that are shut down because of MsC in HotS. Only proxy 11/11 works with any level of consistency in the current metagame because of the prevalence of no scout msc expands- and all it takes for protoss to stop it is to scout, see no rax and go zealot / stalker / msc + constant stalker before expand.

edit: You can basically think of the MsC as buying Protoss 1 minute of time. If a Terran all-in / cheese relies on hitting a timing before that 1 minute is up, it doesn't work. Also, Photon Overcharge has the same range as siege tanks. 1-1-1 doesn't really work if you can't deny the natural at least.

On August 01 2013 22:19 Xequecal wrote:


Actually, when you consider the fact that siege research is gone and cloak research costs less, you can do a WoL 1/1/1 rush with an extra Raven to blank overcharge.

On August 01 2013 22:22 ETisME wrote:
"zerg can violently invest everything in economy after the timing because of larva inject, while Terran builds can't suddenly speed up in economy after investing in army"
what about fail 2 rax into double CCs?

A failed timing will always put zerg behind even if the D button is pressed. You are left vulnerable to a counter attack and behind in tech and lower gas for gas heavy cost efficient units.
that is not equalizing, usually people from other race say this but worker count isn't everything in the game :S

Mules is pretty forgiving when defending all ins as well to the point that terrans are willing to use SCVs to tank for hellions.
I have rarely seen any zerg winning a game after losing 20 drones to a 2 base all in while I have seen games where terran wins by having a single digit scv count

On August 01 2013 22:08 TheDwf wrote:

Indeed, Zerg equalizes by pressing the D button afterwards. This is the difference I was talking about in the other thread: Zerg can violently invest everything in economy after the timing because of larva inject, while Terran builds can't suddenly speed up in economy after investing in army. Thus, Zerg frequently has a second chance after their attack is defended (Zerg only pays a hefty price with his failed timing if Terran can seize the rather short window afterwards, which is often impossible for reasons X or Y), while Terran is left behind without any way to catch up. You can't compare a Terran and a Zerg timing saying "oh, the attack has failed, same consequences for each side", because the races don't function the same way and Zerg gets much higher chances of salvaging a defended attack since larva inject is forgiving.

On August 01 2013 22:08 TheDwf wrote:

There's a huge difference in difficulty between holding Roach/Banes with triple OC dual EB and defending Marines/Hellions/Medivac with a 3 hatch build...


Err... And? How is this relevant to the discussion? Stephano never ever over sac anyway, so his fault for losing horrible stuff like 3 fact BFH or 32 SCVs 6 rax Marines/Marauder all-in (lol).


Flash didn't make YuGiOh overcommit in defence, YuGiOh overcommitted in defence alone. The mistake wasn't forced. There is no ambiguity in a Marines/Hellions/Medivac timing: off CC first, Zerg can know exactly how many Marines and Hellions Terran will have at X, and can thus prepare accordingly, to the drone.


Indeed, Zerg equalizes by pressing the D button afterwards. This is the difference I was talking about in the other thread: Zerg can violently invest everything in economy after the timing because of larva inject, while Terran builds can't suddenly speed up in economy after investing in army. Thus, Zerg frequently has a second chance after their attack is defended (Zerg only pays a hefty price with his failed timing if Terran can seize the rather short window afterwards, which is often impossible for reasons X or Y), while Terran is left behind without any way to catch up. You can't compare a Terran and a Zerg timing saying "oh, the attack has failed, same consequences for each side", because the races don't function the same way and Zerg gets much higher chances of salvaging a defended attack since larva inject is forgiving.


Could you please stay focused on the discussion? I was reminding people why triple OC builds are the undisputed standard now: because there is just no other viable alternative since the Queen patch, which made 2-bases timings into third inferior to Zerg's standard play (unlike before, when 2-bases mutas was the rule). So yes, the shift goes back to WoL, and HotS hasn't changed anything to the fundamentals regarding this.

On August 01 2013 22:00 NarutO wrote:


As you said it, its a coinflip either way and I take the 3ccs anytime. Why? I can actually defend a roach bane allin while its completely out of my hands if Zergs scouts the 2 base aggression or even tries to put on aggression himself. Both options would lead to be being behind or dead. That is assuming he is equally good.

On August 01 2013 22:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:

Just want to say that this is a gigantic oversimplification. If as a terran you do heavy economic damage at some point such that they have to produce 15 (or more) drones, you have a giant timing window to attack and win because they will have 15 larvae less (and 750+ minerals less to dedicate to army). I actually exploited this fact in ZvZ a while back. When I saw a zerg taking a 3rd, I would let it finish, and let him make a round of drones, then I would attack and he would guaranteed lose it because he had so much less unit-wise (this was in the roach/infestor days, so each side usually only had roaches)

On August 01 2013 22:45 Big J wrote:
I'm just gonna admit that you are a superhuman being as you can sometimes hold roach/bane with 3OC while all those shitty zerg players like stephano should just sac overlords all over the place and always stop everything. How stupid of them not to.

And yeah, Z and T differ. What an insight man. Just press D and everything is going to be fine. Finally I can go Pro with those crazy good strategies. Who cares that I don't have speedbanelings, or antiair, or upgrades, or creepspread, or tech. Just really hit that D button...

And I'm staying on the discussion. 3OC builds have been the undisputed standard before the queen patch as well. I'm just reminding you that the patch didn't change anything in that regard, it only changed the BO from 1base hellions into double expand into two base hellions into another expand.

On August 01 2013 21:29 NarutO wrote:
A cheese puts you massively ahead or straight wins the game or massively behind. The cheeses I can think of in TvP have no real chance of working but moreso losing the game. Everything Terran does on one base is allin if you have no intention of expanding. Hitting at the 11 Minute mark is a timing and for Terran with scvs possibly or likely allin. That is not cheese.

So either you have no clue or like to troll people