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On August 01 2013 20:40 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great So luxury, in other words. Protoss doesn't match the Zerg economy and still finds a way to win. You haven't spelled out a single objective reason why Terran needs the fast 3 base more than Protoss would. And in any case it remains a perfectly valid choice for the Terran to not go fast 3 CC.
Are you familar with how an expansion of a race was worth more than an expansion of another race? The Protoss army gets insanely scary when left alone and has enough realiable area of effect damage to fight bigger Zerg armies cost and supply efficient while Terran has not. Terran needs to apply pressure and stable pressure of Terran can only come from a 3 base economy.
Protoss has chance to scout very well (phoenix hallucination, observer) and has its way of zoning out or retreating (forcefield, mothershipcore). Terran can evacuate with medivacs, but having medivacs early to evacuate all your army is impossible and once again, if you cannot apply pressure early because you simply cannot match the numbers that zerg could put up, you need to do something to at least get into the midgame on even terms. Thats why you get a 3rd CC.
Its not luxury, but benefitial and needed. Obviously you can win with 2 base play and delayed third, but that would mean you rely on your opponents mistake to read the game wrong. I for one like to open aggression and I tried out 2 base aggression with delayed third, allins with no 3rd and "standard" games with the 'greedy' third and I can tell you that with 2 base aggression you are automatically shut down with any roach play. (Roach Bane, Speedroach or Roachhydra).
I am the last person to argue against balance if I feel there are issues, but the points you point out show that you actually have no bonds to the game nor can discuss the matter of economy and or basic understand of the match ups with me or anyone that playes on a certain level. (See Dwf for example)
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On August 01 2013 20:42 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:40 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great So luxury, in other words. Protoss doesn't match the Zerg economy and still finds a way to win. You haven't spelled out a single objective reason why Terran needs the fast 3 base more than Protoss would. And in any case it remains a perfectly valid choice for the Terran to not go fast 3 CC. Protoss has high tech units which enable him to go toe to toe with the Zerg. Terran only has lousy bio which doesnt really work well against Zerg unless you have a HUGE reproduction capability. A personal theory at best, and the truth is you're simply clutching at straws. Flying CCs weren't designed with any of this in mind. Terrans went for two thirds of WoL without exploting their ability to greedily get 3 CC, and not going 3 CC remains a strategy that's valid at the very highest levels of play.
The greedy fast 3 CC is not something you need to maintain your win rate: it's a privilege and a luxury that Terrans will fight tooth and claw to hold on to, like any other group that's accustomed to special treatment.
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On August 01 2013 20:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:30 SsDrKosS wrote:
yeah sooo true. I can't think of Sc2 without spawn larvae, chrono boost and MULE.
anyway. I'm still curious of blizzard decision on ghost. why would they make it so tanky but expensive?
(compare to HT which is expensive but like paper and BW ghost was sooo weak in hp but great skills!)
and no lock down made me favoring zerg :p
I prefer current ghost to be less in hp, lowering hp and dps but leave the skills. that will make ghost more fun to use! 100 hps = so tanky. 80 hps = like paper. ?
I am guessing he meant it in the way that ghosts don't have light or armored type. Only the biological and psionic. Other than that, yeah, not very tanky in terms of health.
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On August 01 2013 20:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:41 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 20:39 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great Terran isn't really a ton more powerful on 2 OCs especially in terms of timings. If you are going for Hellion + Bio timing with medivacs from 3 barracks before the 3rd CC, you can pressure but you will be crushed by any roach play or delayed tech mass ling/bane. It really isn't an option to play 2 CCs vs Zerg because they can figure out what you are doing (either 3CC or not) by sending an overlord. If they realize its 2 base pressure, you will not scratch them. If they don't you might win. Alltogether I would still call this out as semi-allin and/or cheesish, because its anything but solid. People call the 3cc tvz build super greedy because of just how early you get the 3rd cc. I understand that it's not the same as getting a quick 3rd base but still. People call triple OC builds "greedy" because they have little clue how the match-up works and probably think we're still in 2011 pre-Queen patch when 2-bases timings could reliably equalize or something. More like 2011 pre-Ghost patch, when Terran could just do whatever and then stabilize by massing ghost/tank.
Thanks for this additional piece of disinformation absolutely irrelevant as to why triple OC builds are now standard.
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On August 01 2013 20:40 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great So luxury, in other words. Protoss doesn't match the Zerg economy and still finds a way to win. You haven't spelled out a single objective reason why Terran needs the fast 3 base more than Protoss would. And in any case it remains a perfectly valid choice for the Terran to not go fast 3 CC.
Well it remains a perfectly valid choice for protoss not to go proxy stargate, 4 gate, DT rush, blink allin, immortal bust and zealot archon allin... does that mean we should remove these things from the game? You are basing your arguments on terran not needing certain things to win games (with what sort of winrate I can only guess), a truly flawed argument.
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On August 01 2013 20:48 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:42 Rabiator wrote:On August 01 2013 20:40 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great So luxury, in other words. Protoss doesn't match the Zerg economy and still finds a way to win. You haven't spelled out a single objective reason why Terran needs the fast 3 base more than Protoss would. And in any case it remains a perfectly valid choice for the Terran to not go fast 3 CC. Protoss has high tech units which enable him to go toe to toe with the Zerg. Terran only has lousy bio which doesnt really work well against Zerg unless you have a HUGE reproduction capability. A personal theory at best, and the truth is you're simply clutching at straws. Flying CCs weren't designed with any of this in mind. Terrans went for two thirds of WoL without exploting their ability to greedily get 3 CC, and not going 3 CC remains a strategy that's valid at the very highest levels of play. The greedy fast 3 CC is not something you need to maintain your win rate: it's a privilege and a luxury that Terrans will fight tooth and claw to hold on to, like any other group that's accustomed to special treatment.
Only because a strategy is seen at the highest level and worked, the majority of Terrans play the style we are talking about. Its not luxury, its benefitial. Zerg doesn't neccessary need the 3rd base, if its saturated or not, but they do build it because its benefitial to them.
We have seen 4 gate on the highest level, doesn't mean its 'viable' in terms of speaking about it in a general way, because 95% of the time it will get slapped down.
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On August 01 2013 20:49 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:40 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great So luxury, in other words. Protoss doesn't match the Zerg economy and still finds a way to win. You haven't spelled out a single objective reason why Terran needs the fast 3 base more than Protoss would. And in any case it remains a perfectly valid choice for the Terran to not go fast 3 CC. Well it remains a perfectly valid choice for protoss not to go proxy stargate, 4 gate, DT rush, blink allin, immortal bust and zealot archon allin... does that mean we should remove these things from the game? You are basing your arguments on terran not needing certain things to win games (with what sort of winrate I can only guess), a truly flawed argument. Terran is even worse when it comes to proxy shit and its all-ins can't be underestimated.
The truth is that if you remove Protoss' capacity for all-ins, its win rate would drop. Because that is what the race depends on and has always depended on.
Gimmicks like this simply can't be compared to a strategy that can be used in any match, no matter what the situation, with no real drawbacks other than that your opponent is expecting it.
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On August 01 2013 20:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:45 Big J wrote:On August 01 2013 20:41 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 20:39 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great Terran isn't really a ton more powerful on 2 OCs especially in terms of timings. If you are going for Hellion + Bio timing with medivacs from 3 barracks before the 3rd CC, you can pressure but you will be crushed by any roach play or delayed tech mass ling/bane. It really isn't an option to play 2 CCs vs Zerg because they can figure out what you are doing (either 3CC or not) by sending an overlord. If they realize its 2 base pressure, you will not scratch them. If they don't you might win. Alltogether I would still call this out as semi-allin and/or cheesish, because its anything but solid. People call the 3cc tvz build super greedy because of just how early you get the 3rd cc. I understand that it's not the same as getting a quick 3rd base but still. People call triple OC builds "greedy" because they have little clue how the match-up works and probably think we're still in 2011 pre-Queen patch when 2-bases timings could reliably equalize or something. More like 2011 pre-Ghost patch, when Terran could just do whatever and then stabilize by massing ghost/tank. Thanks for this additional piece of disinformation absolutely irrelevant as to why triple OC builds are now standard.
It's as informational as your little sideswipe on the queen patch, as by that time 3OC was already the standard build on highlevel. The last successful Terran relying largely on 2base play was MMA at the end of 2011.
After that (and for many people also before that) it was 3OC, long before the queen patch.
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On August 01 2013 20:52 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:49 5unrise wrote:On August 01 2013 20:40 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:36 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 20:27 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:25 5unrise wrote:
You seem to have a very biased view of the skill level needed to play terran and the strength of terran units. I'm not sure if you add any value to the discussion because you clearly can't think objectively Like half of the Terrans here. But that isn't an argument. Do you have any proof that Terran can't win without greedy 3 CC? In Terran vs Zerg, Terran does usually go for a 3rd cc for following reasons: - Match the Zerg economy - Don't be allin against a 3-base play of Zerg - because we can invest 400 minerals while our production goes up without it hurting much since the delay is short term, but the benefits are great So luxury, in other words. Protoss doesn't match the Zerg economy and still finds a way to win. You haven't spelled out a single objective reason why Terran needs the fast 3 base more than Protoss would. And in any case it remains a perfectly valid choice for the Terran to not go fast 3 CC. Well it remains a perfectly valid choice for protoss not to go proxy stargate, 4 gate, DT rush, blink allin, immortal bust and zealot archon allin... does that mean we should remove these things from the game? You are basing your arguments on terran not needing certain things to win games (with what sort of winrate I can only guess), a truly flawed argument. Terran is even worse when it comes to proxy shit and its all-ins can't be underestimated. The truth is that if you remove Protoss' capacity for all-ins, its win rate would drop. Because that is what the race depends on and has always depended on. Gimmicks like this simply can't be compared to a strategy that can be used in any match, no matter what the situation, with no real drawbacks other than that your opponent is expecting it.
Please enlighten me what cheese Terran is capable of pulling off at the highest level? Against Protoss you can play a proxy factory for mines opening, but that immediately gets shut down against a defensive player. 11/11 I would dare to say works in less cases than it doesn't work and other than that, I don't see how you would cheese a Protoss.
The MSC prevents all early bio timings and if any timing works, its because Protoss had 6' techbuildings at 7 minutes and no units whatsoever. Against Zerg there are double 11 barracks or 2 base pressure after the reaper/hellion, but as I mentioned, that is already semi-allin.
Terran basically has no real 'CHEESE'
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On August 01 2013 20:55 Big J wrote:
It's as informational as your little sideswipe on the queen patch, as by that time 3OC was already the standard build on highlevel. The last successful Terran relying largely on 2base play was MMA at the end of 2011.
Except you still had the possibility to play 2-bases timings and equalize reliably because of the Hellion contain delaying the third (≠ post-Queen patch). Just because you didn't understand the point of my remark doesn't mean there wasn't one.
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On August 01 2013 20:56 NarutO wrote:
Terran basically has no real 'CHEESE' Are you serious? You probably have more cheese than in WoL, especially with the banshee upgrade. It's made 1/1/1-like timings absolutely deadly. If you snipe the observer, you get a free win in many situations.
Then in TvZ, you have all kinds of bunker and proxy rax cheese.
Don't get me wrong, I know Protoss has the stronger all-ins. The thing is: almost everyone agrees that Protoss NEEDS the all-ins. It's been the race of all-ins since the beginning. The same does not apply to greedy 3 CC.
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On August 01 2013 20:58 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:55 Big J wrote:
It's as informational as your little sideswipe on the queen patch, as by that time 3OC was already the standard build on highlevel. The last successful Terran relying largely on 2base play was MMA at the end of 2011. Except you still had the possibility to play 2-bases timings and equalize reliably because of the Hellion contain delaying the third (≠ post-Queen patch). Just because you didn't understand the point of my remark doesn't mean there wasn't one.
And just a month or two ago a lot of Terrans played such 2basish timings into a third base as well (with and without hellbats). This stuff still is playable. It's just not 1base hellions into accidently winning without really commiting anymore since the queenpatch, and since HotS zerg can't just fall back on infestors anymore and become inpenetrable until Terran 2-2 anymore after such a thing happened.
Sorry, but from your posts I really get the feeling that you declare any attack that doesn't break even just from the opponent having to invest against it - while the attack still has the chance to win or at least get you ahead - unviable.
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On August 01 2013 21:07 GreenGringo wrote:Are you serious? You probably have more cheese than in WoL, especially with the banshee upgrade. It's made 1/1/1-like timings absolutely deadly. If you snipe the observer, you get a free win in many situations. Then in TvZ, you have all kinds of bunker and proxy rax cheese. Don't get me wrong, I know Protoss has the stronger all-ins. The thing is: almost everyone agrees that Protoss NEEDS the all-ins. It's been the race of all-ins since the beginning. The same does not apply to greedy 3 CC.
Point out all those cheeses to me please, thank you. Also as we saw today, Protoss doesn't need all ins by any means. Protoss can rely on them, but its not needed.
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On August 01 2013 19:12 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:
Mothership core is main thing people are complaining about in Korea right now (Z+T); I don't think any Zergs really feel there's an issue with ZvT
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On August 01 2013 21:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:58 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 20:55 Big J wrote:
It's as informational as your little sideswipe on the queen patch, as by that time 3OC was already the standard build on highlevel. The last successful Terran relying largely on 2base play was MMA at the end of 2011. Except you still had the possibility to play 2-bases timings and equalize reliably because of the Hellion contain delaying the third (≠ post-Queen patch). Just because you didn't understand the point of my remark doesn't mean there wasn't one. And just a month or two ago a lot of Terrans played such 2basish timings into a third base as well (with and without hellbats). This stuff still is playable. It's just not 1base hellions into accidently winning without really commiting anymore since the queenpatch, and since HotS zerg can't just fall back on infestors anymore and become inpenetrable until Terran 2-2 anymore after such a thing happened. Sorry, but from your posts I really get the feeling that you declare any attack that doesn't break even just from the opponent having to invest against it - while the attack still has the chance to win or at least get you ahead - unviable.
Any 2 base timing leaves you behind to begin with. In the earlier stages of Starcraft 2 such an attack could win or equalize the game. Nowadays it can either win or lose, so its flipping a coin. Its very rare the attack gets deflected with suffering economical damage but usually just unit trades which leaves the person (zerg) with the 3rd base far ahead.
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On August 01 2013 21:07 Big J wrote:
And just a month or two ago a lot of Terrans played such 2basish timings into a third base as well (with and without hellbats). This stuff still is playable. It's just not 1base hellions into accidently winning without really commiting anymore since the queenpatch, and since HotS zerg can't just fall back on infestors anymore and become inpenetrable until Terran 2-2 anymore after such a thing happened.
Ah, the good old argument of the mythical Hellion raid winning on its own, conveniently forgetting that Zerg could easily defend that kind of gamble with evos blocking the path, the Spine + Speedlings on top of the ramp to prevent Hellions from moving in the main. But whatever.
2-bases timings are vaguely playable against Zergs who don't know how to handle it, yes, which means they're technically no more than a gimmick (except pre-Hellbats nerf, because then Hellbats/Marauders was strong enough to equalize more reliably). If Zerg answers correctly, you end up massively behind.
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On August 01 2013 21:11 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:07 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:56 NarutO wrote:
Terran basically has no real 'CHEESE' Are you serious? You probably have more cheese than in WoL, especially with the banshee upgrade. It's made 1/1/1-like timings absolutely deadly. If you snipe the observer, you get a free win in many situations. Then in TvZ, you have all kinds of bunker and proxy rax cheese. Don't get me wrong, I know Protoss has the stronger all-ins. The thing is: almost everyone agrees that Protoss NEEDS the all-ins. It's been the race of all-ins since the beginning. The same does not apply to greedy 3 CC. Point out all those cheeses to me please, thank you. Also as we saw today, Protoss doesn't need all ins by any means. Protoss can rely on them, but its not needed. You can read them yourself on Liquipedia. TvP, there's about five pieces of cheese in there. It doesn't include widow mines drops. It doesn't include the majority of bread-and-butter timings that hit around 11 minutes.
TvZ, there's so many that I can't count.
Really, it's absurd to say that Terran doesn't have any cheese.
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On August 01 2013 21:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:07 Big J wrote:
And just a month or two ago a lot of Terrans played such 2basish timings into a third base as well (with and without hellbats). This stuff still is playable. It's just not 1base hellions into accidently winning without really commiting anymore since the queenpatch, and since HotS zerg can't just fall back on infestors anymore and become inpenetrable until Terran 2-2 anymore after such a thing happened. Ah, the good old argument of the mythical Hellion raid winning on its own, conveniently forgetting that Zerg could easily defend that kind of gamble with evos blocking the path, the Spine + Speedlings on top of the ramp to prevent Hellions from moving in the main. But whatever. 2-bases timings are vaguely playable against Zergs who don't know how to handle it, yes, which means they're technically no more than a gimmick (except pre-Hellbats nerf, because then Hellbats/Marauders was strong enough to equalize more reliably). If Zerg answers correctly, you end up massively behind.
Are you seriously saying hellions didn't occasionally just win the game pre queen patch? It wasn't mythical at all lol.
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On August 01 2013 21:19 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 01 2013 21:07 Big J wrote:
And just a month or two ago a lot of Terrans played such 2basish timings into a third base as well (with and without hellbats). This stuff still is playable. It's just not 1base hellions into accidently winning without really commiting anymore since the queenpatch, and since HotS zerg can't just fall back on infestors anymore and become inpenetrable until Terran 2-2 anymore after such a thing happened. Ah, the good old argument of the mythical Hellion raid winning on its own, conveniently forgetting that Zerg could easily defend that kind of gamble with evos blocking the path, the Spine + Speedlings on top of the ramp to prevent Hellions from moving in the main. But whatever. 2-bases timings are vaguely playable against Zergs who don't know how to handle it, yes, which means they're technically no more than a gimmick (except pre-Hellbats nerf, because then Hellbats/Marauders was strong enough to equalize more reliably). If Zerg answers correctly, you end up massively behind. Are you seriously saying hellions didn't occasionally just win the game pre queen patch? It wasn't mythical at all lol.
I am saying it required a blunder for this kind of thing to occur. It wasn't "a free chance at accidentally winning the game" for the Terran, it was a mistake from the Zerg.
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On August 01 2013 21:18 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:11 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 21:07 GreenGringo wrote:On August 01 2013 20:56 NarutO wrote:
Terran basically has no real 'CHEESE' Are you serious? You probably have more cheese than in WoL, especially with the banshee upgrade. It's made 1/1/1-like timings absolutely deadly. If you snipe the observer, you get a free win in many situations. Then in TvZ, you have all kinds of bunker and proxy rax cheese. Don't get me wrong, I know Protoss has the stronger all-ins. The thing is: almost everyone agrees that Protoss NEEDS the all-ins. It's been the race of all-ins since the beginning. The same does not apply to greedy 3 CC. Point out all those cheeses to me please, thank you. Also as we saw today, Protoss doesn't need all ins by any means. Protoss can rely on them, but its not needed. You can read them yourself on Liquipedia. TvP, there's about five pieces of cheese in there. It doesn't include widow mines drops. It doesn't include the majority of bread-and-butter timings that hit around 11 minutes. TvZ, there's so many that I can't count. Really, it's absurd to say that Terran doesn't have any cheese.
And yet you cannot name any TvZ cheeses  I'll help you out: proxy 2 rax. Your turn.
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EPT
