Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 183

On March 20 2012 07:19 thurst0n wrote:
Don't forget about hallucination, it's toss's early game scout option instead of scan or overlord...

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want the robo at some point anyway, if you open with templar then you are obviously taking a risk to cloaked banshee, well placed cannons can mostly keep you ok but a smart terran will always do some damage, and cannons are a pretty big investment if it's just to stop 1 or 2 cloaked banshees and you're trying to defend all of your production and your mineral line.

Robo also opens up collosus, immortals, observers which you'll obviously want for banshees and for watching army position mid/late game. Dont forget about WARP PRISMS, which are just so good vs terran :-)

On February 03 2012 01:48 Olsson wrote:
Problem:

Zerg doesn't have a response to storm nor EMP.

Solution
Give zerg a new unit in HOTS or give a unit a new ability to drain energy.

Side Effects:
I can't really think of any. It forces micro from both sides and the races will become more equally balanced. While people might argue that zerg shouldn't get this because the races needs to be different and zerg can just mass against this, the races have some fundamental equalities and I believe this should be one of them and zerg dont trade effectively in the late game.

On March 20 2012 07:29 FuRRyChoBo wrote:


Yes they do, it's called micro.

In response to the warp gates thing, I've said the mechanic was awful since my first game against Protoss. It just makes zero sense in general. Having warp gates for Protoss is essentially the same as if Terran could directly spawn units out of proxy supply depots. How silly does that sound?

On March 20 2012 07:25 freetgy wrote:


hallucination comes to late, it was fine before the warpgate nerf. (due to the research time buff)
currently especially after an FFE or 3 Gateway expand it just comes those 40s to late (due to the longer resarch time of warpgate, putting it in the exact state it was before hallu was buffed at all).

Those missing 40s is the difference scouting and preparing for the roach ling all-in or not. Also robo/obs comes faster, but weakens your overall army strengh of course.
Hallu research time needs to be fixed again, because of this imho.

On March 22 2012 06:20 Chinesewonder wrote:
Anyone else feel that BL infestor is quite strong now since the ghost nerf? As a zerg I must say the composition feels very strong (mid masters level) and even watching pro games, the composition seems very strong. Even when lots of vikings are made, the ultra transition can roll them.

Or do you think that it is just a matter of playing the game a different way (aka more harass)? For example I experience a lot of terran QQ at the brood lord infestor composition. However in those games I hardly see any harass what so ever. For example this one game on cloud kingdom, I had 3 completely undefended expansions on the other side of the map, and not one attempt at harass was made. If it was I would have lost 3 expansions right there, plus I would have had to been drawn back to defend and lose position. Then the terran QQ'd about how BL infestor is so OP.

What is your opinion on this?

On March 22 2012 06:20 Chinesewonder wrote:
Anyone else feel that BL infestor is quite strong now since the ghost nerf? As a zerg I must say the composition feels very strong (mid masters level) and even watching pro games, the composition seems very strong. Even when lots of vikings are made, the ultra transition can roll them.

Or do you think that it is just a matter of playing the game a different way (aka more harass)? For example I experience a lot of terran QQ at the brood lord infestor composition. However in those games I hardly see any harass what so ever. For example this one game on cloud kingdom, I had 3 completely undefended expansions on the other side of the map, and not one attempt at harass was made. If it was I would have lost 3 expansions right there, plus I would have had to been drawn back to defend and lose position. Then the terran QQ'd about how BL infestor is so OP.

What is your opinion on this?

On March 22 2012 06:47 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Problem:
1-1-1

Solution
Bashee armored.

Side Effects:
Unknown.


Problem:
Late TvP

Solution
Increase viking ground DPS

Side Effects:
Unknown.

On March 22 2012 06:47 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Problem:
1-1-1

Solution
Bashee armored.

Side Effects:
Unknown.


Problem:
Late TvP

Solution
Increase viking ground DPS

Side Effects:
Unknown.

On March 22 2012 06:20 Chinesewonder wrote:
Anyone else feel that BL infestor is quite strong now since the ghost nerf? As a zerg I must say the composition feels very strong (mid masters level) and even watching pro games, the composition seems very strong. Even when lots of vikings are made, the ultra transition can roll them.

Or do you think that it is just a matter of playing the game a different way (aka more harass)? For example I experience a lot of terran QQ at the brood lord infestor composition. However in those games I hardly see any harass what so ever. For example this one game on cloud kingdom, I had 3 completely undefended expansions on the other side of the map, and not one attempt at harass was made. If it was I would have lost 3 expansions right there, plus I would have had to been drawn back to defend and lose position. Then the terran QQ'd about how BL infestor is so OP.

What is your opinion on this?

On March 22 2012 07:57 Bagi wrote:

I saw Kas play a TvZ today, it was close positions on Antiga. His opponent took the usual 3 bases and then took the gold expansion on his side. Kas tried to drop but it was no used as his opponent wasn't stretched out at all and his lings could reach every base in mere seconds. Eventually his 200/200 marine/tank/thor/viking lost the engagement despite having a huge concave, he killed plenty of lings and corruptors but only 1-2 broodlords and infestors. gg.

I certainly think the unit composition is problematic. I don't think zerg is significantly overpowered or anything, but I think that every unit composition should have its counter - assuming your opponent has a good enough economy, you should be able to build an army that can take your opponents army head on. Currently its not the case with BL infestor, as no terran army can fight BL/infestor in a cost efficient manner. I guess its also worth noting that a BL infestor army is so much easier to control than its supposed counter army.

Ghosts? EMP radius is too small to effectively counter infestors. Its great against high templar because of the unit size, not so much against infestor. You could try cloak + snipe, but that really relies on your opponent messing up with his detection. Ghosts were great against broodlords because they could take them head on with snipes, now they have to find a way around them to get where the infestors are hiding. A good zerg won't let that happen, just ask Stephano.

Oh, and I haven't even touched the issue where you manage to kill the BL army but the zerg remaxes on ultra/ling. Good times.

I think Blizzard should take a look at the raven and find ways to make it the proper counter for this composition. It seems like a natural extension to the viking style, but its just bad in its current state since it takes too long to gather energy and you seeker missile might never land because you get caught in a fungal. I don't think buffing ravens would become an issue to protoss as long as you only adjust seeker missile (PDD buff would help 1-1-1) and keep the spell ranges somewhat short. That way feedback will always provide a solid counter to any raven shenanigans.

Ultimately I consider BL/infestor a kinda broken unit comp since protoss cannot engage it without abusing a bug (archon toilet) and terran cannot engage it at all. However, fundamentally changing it would have too many implications and I feel its best left for HOTS.

On March 20 2012 07:25 freetgy wrote:


hallucination comes to late, it was fine before the warpgate nerf. (due to the research time buff)
currently especially after an FFE or 3 Gateway expand it just comes those 40s to late (due to the longer resarch time of warpgate, putting it in the exact state it was before hallu was buffed at all).

Those missing 40s is the difference scouting and preparing for the roach ling all-in or not. Also robo/obs comes faster, but weakens your overall army strengh of course.
Hallu research time needs to be fixed again, because of this imho.

On March 22 2012 09:31 Type|NarutO wrote:
Blizzard decided to nerf the ghost because it was necessary. I don't know how hard the nerf needed to be and I don't want to discuss it, as I want to talk about the situation right now. I think ghosts were only imbalanced when you had a high amount of them and in the hands of a very skilled player, yet they were imbalanced under that circumstances so it needed a nerf.

Now we have broodlord/infestor/corrupter which in itself is a very strong combo. I won't say its generally imbalanced, but once it reaches a critical mass and the Zerg is a good player and knows how to use it, you cannot beat the composition. Obviously you could say, that its a skill to babysit infestors and micro that unit composition, but the same could be said about mass ghosts so I really think it needs some sort of nerf.

No matter your economy, if you give Zerg such an army, Terran can usually never engage it properly. I won't say there is NO army to counter it, but there certainly is not a very effective way, just like against a lot of ghosts. You can avoid the army on big maps and keep dropping, but eventually if you didn't enter the lategame with an advantage but only on even ground you will find spines and spores to defend against drops or even a parked infestor.

I believe Blizzard will have a good look into that unit composition. I only win games against this composition if the Zerg gets caught very offguard and loses infestors without fungal or sorts of it.

I have brought a lot of games back to kind of even ground even with an disadvantage with dropping and killing all the mining bases, yet it costs ressources and I could never engage the main army and eventually still lost.. I am certain it won't take a lot of major tournaments before this issue will be reviewed by Blizzard.

The main problem I see is, that Terrans and especially korean Terrans are so amazingly good, that its hard for most Zergs to get to the point where they get that combo.

On March 22 2012 07:57 Bagi wrote:

I saw Kas play a TvZ today, it was close positions on Antiga. His opponent took the usual 3 bases and then took the gold expansion on his side. Kas tried to drop but it was no used as his opponent wasn't stretched out at all and his lings could reach every base in mere seconds. Eventually his 200/200 marine/tank/thor/viking lost the engagement despite having a huge concave, he killed plenty of lings and corruptors but only 1-2 broodlords and infestors. gg.

I certainly think the unit composition is problematic. I don't think zerg is significantly overpowered or anything, but I think that every unit composition should have its counter - assuming your opponent has a good enough economy, you should be able to build an army that can take your opponents army head on. Currently its not the case with BL infestor, as no terran army can fight BL/infestor in a cost efficient manner. I guess its also worth noting that a BL infestor army is so much easier to control than its supposed counter army.

Ghosts? EMP radius is too small to effectively counter infestors. Its great against high templar because of the unit size, not so much against infestor. You could try cloak + snipe, but that really relies on your opponent messing up with his detection. Ghosts were great against broodlords because they could take them head on with snipes, now they have to find a way around them to get where the infestors are hiding. A good zerg won't let that happen, just ask Stephano.

Oh, and I haven't even touched the issue where you manage to kill the BL army but the zerg remaxes on ultra/ling. Good times.

I think Blizzard should take a look at the raven and find ways to make it the proper counter for this composition. It seems like a natural extension to the viking style, but its just bad in its current state since it takes too long to gather energy and you seeker missile might never land because you get caught in a fungal. I don't think buffing ravens would become an issue to protoss as long as you only adjust seeker missile (PDD buff would help 1-1-1) and keep the spell ranges somewhat short. That way feedback will always provide a solid counter to any raven shenanigans.

Ultimately I consider BL/infestor a kinda broken unit comp since protoss cannot engage it without abusing a bug (archon toilet) and terran cannot engage it at all. However, fundamentally changing it would have too many implications and I feel its best left for HOTS.