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From the OP of this thread in the IEM thread.
On October 04 2011 15:34 Techno wrote:
Hasuu is playing like a pussy, he keeps cowarding away from engagements and getting destroyed because hes not dictating the engagements.
Just 1a like a good protoss.
User was temp banned for this post.
So much for having the right mindset for constructive balance discussion. Pathetic.
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On October 05 2011 00:54 QTIP. wrote:From the OP of this thread in the IEM thread. Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 15:34 Techno wrote:
Hasuu is playing like a pussy, he keeps cowarding away from engagements and getting destroyed because hes not dictating the engagements.
Just 1a like a good protoss.
User was temp banned for this post. So much for having the right mindset for constructive balance discussion. Pathetic.
Yea I saw that in the IEM thread as well. I love how he gave so many people shit about hyperbole and shitty discussion in this thread but is perfectly okay for him to do it in other threads.
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On October 05 2011 00:47 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 00:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 04 2011 20:57 TacticalLemur wrote:Zealot: Give back the 10 shields that were taken away in the beta from Broodwar. Make Charge 150/150 like in Broodwar or separate the leg speed and charge. Put leg speed on the cybercore to help against speedlings, speed roaches, maruader slow and stim. Leave the charge ability on the Twilight council. Protoss is usually gas starved to any reduction in the cost of this upgrade or even moving it would be a big help. Lower build time by 5 seconds and fucking leave it alone. I should be able to chrono out zealots for early aggression not chrono out zealots so the build time is normal. + Show Spoiler +
Stalker: A slight base damage increase is in order I think. They need to be able to kill marines, zerglings, and workers in fewer shots than they do. A 125/50 unit should not lose to marines with no upgrades without taking serious loses but that's not the case. Their uprades should scale a little better also. Either +2 +0 upgrades or +1 +1 upgrades. Just depends on the base damage increase. Stalkers have worse base damage than a 50 mineral marine so this change really should go through.
Sentries. Sentry "good unit" they cost a a lot of gas but forcefields are quite good. If any change was done to the sentry I'd want a range increase so they don't get picked off as easily. I try to micro them back and they just get stuck on stalkers and then raped. Again not necessary they are meant to be vulnerable considering how good they are. They could add hallucinated observers like people mentioned probably a year ago. Would help against coin flip builds and make gateway style safe against cloak or borrow units.
DarkTemplar: get rid of the dark shrine. DT expand should be a viable build and I guess it is to a certain degree but the investment that it takes may end the game for you. With the change to the overseer I don't forsee this being horrible against Zerg; plus Zergs always get spores to stop stargate play or even DTs to begin with. Add time to the templar archives and the twilight council if time is an issue. The Citadal of Adun and the Templar Archives were 60 seconds in Broodwar their counterparts in SC2 are 50 seconds. I would take whatever time increase they want to throw out to be able to chose to make DTs or HTs depending on what I might scout.
High Templar: Increase the movement speed to 2.25. This is the same speed as the other casters and the speed of many protoss units such as the colossus, immortal, sentry, and zealot without speed. Bring back Broodwar Khaydarin Amulet 62/250 energy would be fine with me. Less time to wait on storm and more energy to be taken away with EMP.
Immortal: lower build time by 5-10 seconds. It was raised in the beta because immortal busts on terran were imba but I think modern terrans would laugh at such a push now. This would help against 1/1/1 play.
Colossus: I hate making colossus for sure especially in PvP. I think the colossus should have a damage nerf in favor of stronger gateway units. To offset this change maybe make the AOE of the colossus bigger.
Void Ray: Void rays are situational but still quite good even though they cost 150 gas. The only change I would make right now is give them the 1 armor back that was taken away in the beta to compensate for the other nerfs. They evaporate pretty badly to marine fire so this would help in that respect.
Carrier: The most common change brought up for this unit is the build time. 120 seconds is a little too long. I'd recommend 100 seconds which is 10 seconds more than a Battlecruiser. Carriers have to build 4 interceptors to become useful in battle anyway so this build time change will offset that. And I think the Carrier should get it's 4 armor back. Carriers melt to Marines and that simply shouldn't happen. The interceptors themselves need a change also; they should bring back the healing aspect from Broodwar but that might be too strong so maybe increase the heal/shields/armor of the interceptors so they can take more punishment.
Mothership: Most useless unit in SC2. Can be good but easily destroyed and costs too much. They already pretty much reverted the acceleration change they made in patch 2 of the beta and then some. I think they should just revert all of those changes; I don't see any of them as game breaking considering how bad the Mothership is now.
Archons, Warp Prisms, Phoenix, and Observers seem to be in a good place right now. They serve their purpose.
A lot of this stuff has been said before over the past year but I just wanted to see what people think now that Protoss is struggling at the professional level.
So you honestly think that there should be a buff for two thirds of protoss units to make them balanced? OK.. the colossus change was just a change not a straight buff.. still.. lol? I don't think his post should be taken too seriously. If any of those changes were implemented it would basically break ZvP. Although I do agree colossi need something done to them, something like a redesign. Current state of TvP is bad, granted; but remember protoss can still field the strongest endgame army. None of their units need buffs, I feel they need a defenders advantage against terran.
You're right it wasn't meant to be taken completely serious; most of that is just crap that was been said before but not in awhile. The only original idea was separating zealot speed from charge and making it lower tech but that won't happen so I'll settle for 150/150. I think most would be fine with better gateway units in exchange for worse colossus though.With better gateway units there would be less sentries needed and therefore more gas for tech and more variety. Carriers are still garbage though lol.
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On October 05 2011 00:54 QTIP. wrote:From the OP of this thread in the IEM thread. Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 15:34 Techno wrote:
Hasuu is playing like a pussy, he keeps cowarding away from engagements and getting destroyed because hes not dictating the engagements.
Just 1a like a good protoss.
User was temp banned for this post. So much for having the right mindset for constructive balance discussion. Pathetic.
Haha, good spotting! Although, when you look at the edit of his OP, you can suspect as much.
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I wonder if he will come back after his temp ban. Part of me hopes so, just to see how many insults people make out of it when he returns to this thread...
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On October 05 2011 00:51 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 00:47 zbedlam wrote:On October 05 2011 00:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 04 2011 20:57 TacticalLemur wrote:Zealot: Give back the 10 shields that were taken away in the beta from Broodwar. Make Charge 150/150 like in Broodwar or separate the leg speed and charge. Put leg speed on the cybercore to help against speedlings, speed roaches, maruader slow and stim. Leave the charge ability on the Twilight council. Protoss is usually gas starved to any reduction in the cost of this upgrade or even moving it would be a big help. Lower build time by 5 seconds and fucking leave it alone. I should be able to chrono out zealots for early aggression not chrono out zealots so the build time is normal. + Show Spoiler +
Stalker: A slight base damage increase is in order I think. They need to be able to kill marines, zerglings, and workers in fewer shots than they do. A 125/50 unit should not lose to marines with no upgrades without taking serious loses but that's not the case. Their uprades should scale a little better also. Either +2 +0 upgrades or +1 +1 upgrades. Just depends on the base damage increase. Stalkers have worse base damage than a 50 mineral marine so this change really should go through.
Sentries. Sentry "good unit" they cost a a lot of gas but forcefields are quite good. If any change was done to the sentry I'd want a range increase so they don't get picked off as easily. I try to micro them back and they just get stuck on stalkers and then raped. Again not necessary they are meant to be vulnerable considering how good they are. They could add hallucinated observers like people mentioned probably a year ago. Would help against coin flip builds and make gateway style safe against cloak or borrow units.
DarkTemplar: get rid of the dark shrine. DT expand should be a viable build and I guess it is to a certain degree but the investment that it takes may end the game for you. With the change to the overseer I don't forsee this being horrible against Zerg; plus Zergs always get spores to stop stargate play or even DTs to begin with. Add time to the templar archives and the twilight council if time is an issue. The Citadal of Adun and the Templar Archives were 60 seconds in Broodwar their counterparts in SC2 are 50 seconds. I would take whatever time increase they want to throw out to be able to chose to make DTs or HTs depending on what I might scout.
High Templar: Increase the movement speed to 2.25. This is the same speed as the other casters and the speed of many protoss units such as the colossus, immortal, sentry, and zealot without speed. Bring back Broodwar Khaydarin Amulet 62/250 energy would be fine with me. Less time to wait on storm and more energy to be taken away with EMP.
Immortal: lower build time by 5-10 seconds. It was raised in the beta because immortal busts on terran were imba but I think modern terrans would laugh at such a push now. This would help against 1/1/1 play.
Colossus: I hate making colossus for sure especially in PvP. I think the colossus should have a damage nerf in favor of stronger gateway units. To offset this change maybe make the AOE of the colossus bigger.
Void Ray: Void rays are situational but still quite good even though they cost 150 gas. The only change I would make right now is give them the 1 armor back that was taken away in the beta to compensate for the other nerfs. They evaporate pretty badly to marine fire so this would help in that respect.
Carrier: The most common change brought up for this unit is the build time. 120 seconds is a little too long. I'd recommend 100 seconds which is 10 seconds more than a Battlecruiser. Carriers have to build 4 interceptors to become useful in battle anyway so this build time change will offset that. And I think the Carrier should get it's 4 armor back. Carriers melt to Marines and that simply shouldn't happen. The interceptors themselves need a change also; they should bring back the healing aspect from Broodwar but that might be too strong so maybe increase the heal/shields/armor of the interceptors so they can take more punishment.
Mothership: Most useless unit in SC2. Can be good but easily destroyed and costs too much. They already pretty much reverted the acceleration change they made in patch 2 of the beta and then some. I think they should just revert all of those changes; I don't see any of them as game breaking considering how bad the Mothership is now.
Archons, Warp Prisms, Phoenix, and Observers seem to be in a good place right now. They serve their purpose.
A lot of this stuff has been said before over the past year but I just wanted to see what people think now that Protoss is struggling at the professional level.
So you honestly think that there should be a buff for two thirds of protoss units to make them balanced? OK.. the colossus change was just a change not a straight buff.. still.. lol? I don't think his post should be taken too seriously. If any of those changes were implemented it would basically break ZvP. Although I do agree colossi need something done to them, something like a redesign. Current state of TvP is bad, granted; but remember protoss can still field the strongest endgame army. None of their units need buffs, I feel they need a defenders advantage against terran. Best endgame army? What are you talking about? When did you last see a protoss kill a terran army of just cheapass bio, viking and ghosts?
"cheapass bio, viking, ghosts" (with 3/3 bio and 3 ship weapon upgrades i presume, and a flock of medivacs you are ignoring i presume?)
If you can't see what is wrong with that description of an army i pity you. If you add a raven for flavor and detection you have basically listed any Terran unit that makes sense against protoss from a number of different production buildings.
And yes i still see protoss winning against such armies with a combination of gateway and robo units. The only thing that matters in such a fight is positioning and whose casters get off their spells first. If the storms hit the Terran will loose horribly.
Yes it is hard to play against Terran bio, but considering that going Mech is basically giving a freewin to the vastly faster protoss army what exactly are Terrans supposed to do? Go sky terran and watch feedback and blink stalkers rip apart BCs and banshees?
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On October 05 2011 00:47 zbedlam wrote:
I don't think his post should be taken too seriously. If any of those changes were implemented it would basically break ZvP. Although I do agree colossi need something done to them, something like a redesign.
Current state of TvP is bad, granted; but remember protoss can still field the strongest endgame army. None of their units need buffs, I feel they need a defenders advantage against terran.
I'd love to see something like the BW shield battery brought back. It would make for a great defenders advantage =)
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On October 04 2011 20:57 TacticalLemur wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Zealot: Give back the 10 shields that were taken away in the beta from Broodwar.
Make Charge 150/150 like in Broodwar or separate the leg speed and charge. Put leg speed on the cybercore to help against speedlings, speed roaches, maruader slow and stim. Leave the charge ability on the Twilight council. Protoss is usually gas starved to any reduction in the cost of this upgrade or even moving it would be a big help.
Lower build time by 5 seconds and fucking leave it alone. I should be able to chrono out zealots for early aggression not chrono out zealots so the build time is normal.
Stalker: A slight base damage increase is in order I think. They need to be able to kill marines, zerglings, and workers in fewer shots than they do. A 125/50 unit should not lose to marines with no upgrades without taking serious loses but that's not the case. Their uprades should scale a little better also. Either +2 +0 upgrades or +1 +1 upgrades. Just depends on the base damage increase. Stalkers have worse base damage than a 50 mineral marine so this change really should go through.
Sentries. Sentry "good unit" they cost a a lot of gas but forcefields are quite good. If any change was done to the sentry I'd want a range increase so they don't get picked off as easily. I try to micro them back and they just get stuck on stalkers and then raped. Again not necessary they are meant to be vulnerable considering how good they are. They could add hallucinated observers like people mentioned probably a year ago. Would help against coin flip builds and make gateway style safe against cloak or borrow units.
DarkTemplar: get rid of the dark shrine. DT expand should be a viable build and I guess it is to a certain degree but the investment that it takes may end the game for you. With the change to the overseer I don't forsee this being horrible against Zerg; plus Zergs always get spores to stop stargate play or even DTs to begin with. Add time to the templar archives and the twilight council if time is an issue. The Citadal of Adun and the Templar Archives were 60 seconds in Broodwar their counterparts in SC2 are 50 seconds. I would take whatever time increase they want to throw out to be able to chose to make DTs or HTs depending on what I might scout.
High Templar: Increase the movement speed to 2.25. This is the same speed as the other casters and the speed of many protoss units such as the colossus, immortal, sentry, and zealot without speed. Bring back Broodwar Khaydarin Amulet 62/250 energy would be fine with me. Less time to wait on storm and more energy to be taken away with EMP.
Immortal: lower build time by 5-10 seconds. It was raised in the beta because immortal busts on terran were imba but I think modern terrans would laugh at such a push now. This would help against 1/1/1 play.
Colossus: I hate making colossus for sure especially in PvP. I think the colossus should have a damage nerf in favor of stronger gateway units. To offset this change maybe make the AOE of the colossus bigger.
Void Ray: Void rays are situational but still quite good even though they cost 150 gas. The only change I would make right now is give them the 1 armor back that was taken away in the beta to compensate for the other nerfs. They evaporate pretty badly to marine fire so this would help in that respect.
Carrier: The most common change brought up for this unit is the build time. 120 seconds is a little too long. I'd recommend 100 seconds which is 10 seconds more than a Battlecruiser. Carriers have to build 4 interceptors to become useful in battle anyway so this build time change will offset that. And I think the Carrier should get it's 4 armor back. Carriers melt to Marines and that simply shouldn't happen. The interceptors themselves need a change also; they should bring back the healing aspect from Broodwar but that might be too strong so maybe increase the heal/shields/armor of the interceptors so they can take more punishment.
Mothership: Most useless unit in SC2. Can be good but easily destroyed and costs too much. They already pretty much reverted the acceleration change they made in patch 2 of the beta and then some. I think they should just revert all of those changes; I don't see any of them as game breaking considering how bad the Mothership is now.
Archons, Warp Prisms, Phoenix, and Observers seem to be in a good place right now. They serve their purpose. A lot of this stuff has been said before over the past year but I just wanted to see what people think now that Protoss is struggling at the professional level.
As a Protoss player, these buffs would all be nice (and by now it should be clear that we need *something*), but we can't exactly ask for everything lol.
One tiny tweak can change a whole match-up. Blizzard started with the immortal getting buffed. We may need a gateway unit getting buffed as well (or the ghost getting nerfed), but let's see what happens.
I think we need to buff (or nerf) one thing at a time, so we can measure the effects of that one particular change. If we change too much simultaneously, then we won't know which changes were helpful and which were possibly unnecessary (or harmful).
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On October 03 2011 08:05 Destructicon wrote:
Suggest something, ok.
Move Warp Gate tech to Twilight Council and Charge to Cybernetics Core, reverse their costs while doing it.
Buff zealots and stalkers a bit. For stalkers, increase the damage they do to armored from 14 to 15 or 16.
For zealots, change charge so that for 3 seconds after charging the zealots are also immune to any slowing effects and gain 10% more speed as well.
Make Hallucination a default spell and make Guardian shield trainable, this will give protoss one more early game scouting tool necessary to react to certain situations.
Reduce the gas cost on the protoss units a bit, some of the prices are really trough the roof and absurd. Basically cut the gas cost on stalker, immortal, sentry, ht, phoenix and VR by 25, this would allow for more flexible builds since gas prices would be less prohibitive.
Those would be some the changes that I'd think would alleviate some of the short term problems.
In the long run I expect all races will be balanced when HoS and LoV come out since Zerg and Protoss will receive more love in the form of new techs and new units. Until then though the above changes would probably help.
Note, I take no credit for some of the above changes, many where suggested already by a lot of posters in this thread. My only original contributions where the changes to Charge, Stalkers and reduction of gas prices.
You forgot about adding the I-win ability to nexus, which costs exactly 50 minerals.
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On October 05 2011 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 20:57 TacticalLemur wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Zealot: Give back the 10 shields that were taken away in the beta from Broodwar.
Make Charge 150/150 like in Broodwar or separate the leg speed and charge. Put leg speed on the cybercore to help against speedlings, speed roaches, maruader slow and stim. Leave the charge ability on the Twilight council. Protoss is usually gas starved to any reduction in the cost of this upgrade or even moving it would be a big help.
Lower build time by 5 seconds and fucking leave it alone. I should be able to chrono out zealots for early aggression not chrono out zealots so the build time is normal.
Stalker: A slight base damage increase is in order I think. They need to be able to kill marines, zerglings, and workers in fewer shots than they do. A 125/50 unit should not lose to marines with no upgrades without taking serious loses but that's not the case. Their uprades should scale a little better also. Either +2 +0 upgrades or +1 +1 upgrades. Just depends on the base damage increase. Stalkers have worse base damage than a 50 mineral marine so this change really should go through.
Sentries. Sentry "good unit" they cost a a lot of gas but forcefields are quite good. If any change was done to the sentry I'd want a range increase so they don't get picked off as easily. I try to micro them back and they just get stuck on stalkers and then raped. Again not necessary they are meant to be vulnerable considering how good they are. They could add hallucinated observers like people mentioned probably a year ago. Would help against coin flip builds and make gateway style safe against cloak or borrow units.
DarkTemplar: get rid of the dark shrine. DT expand should be a viable build and I guess it is to a certain degree but the investment that it takes may end the game for you. With the change to the overseer I don't forsee this being horrible against Zerg; plus Zergs always get spores to stop stargate play or even DTs to begin with. Add time to the templar archives and the twilight council if time is an issue. The Citadal of Adun and the Templar Archives were 60 seconds in Broodwar their counterparts in SC2 are 50 seconds. I would take whatever time increase they want to throw out to be able to chose to make DTs or HTs depending on what I might scout.
High Templar: Increase the movement speed to 2.25. This is the same speed as the other casters and the speed of many protoss units such as the colossus, immortal, sentry, and zealot without speed. Bring back Broodwar Khaydarin Amulet 62/250 energy would be fine with me. Less time to wait on storm and more energy to be taken away with EMP.
Immortal: lower build time by 5-10 seconds. It was raised in the beta because immortal busts on terran were imba but I think modern terrans would laugh at such a push now. This would help against 1/1/1 play.
Colossus: I hate making colossus for sure especially in PvP. I think the colossus should have a damage nerf in favor of stronger gateway units. To offset this change maybe make the AOE of the colossus bigger.
Void Ray: Void rays are situational but still quite good even though they cost 150 gas. The only change I would make right now is give them the 1 armor back that was taken away in the beta to compensate for the other nerfs. They evaporate pretty badly to marine fire so this would help in that respect.
Carrier: The most common change brought up for this unit is the build time. 120 seconds is a little too long. I'd recommend 100 seconds which is 10 seconds more than a Battlecruiser. Carriers have to build 4 interceptors to become useful in battle anyway so this build time change will offset that. And I think the Carrier should get it's 4 armor back. Carriers melt to Marines and that simply shouldn't happen. The interceptors themselves need a change also; they should bring back the healing aspect from Broodwar but that might be too strong so maybe increase the heal/shields/armor of the interceptors so they can take more punishment.
Mothership: Most useless unit in SC2. Can be good but easily destroyed and costs too much. They already pretty much reverted the acceleration change they made in patch 2 of the beta and then some. I think they should just revert all of those changes; I don't see any of them as game breaking considering how bad the Mothership is now.
Archons, Warp Prisms, Phoenix, and Observers seem to be in a good place right now. They serve their purpose. A lot of this stuff has been said before over the past year but I just wanted to see what people think now that Protoss is struggling at the professional level. As a Protoss player, these buffs would all be nice (and by now it should be clear that we need *something*), but we can't exactly ask for everything lol. One tiny tweak can change a whole match-up. Blizzard started with the immortal getting buffed. We may need a gateway unit getting buffed as well (or the ghost getting nerfed), but let's see what happens. I think we need to buff (or nerf) one thing at a time, so we can measure the effects of that one particular change. If we change too much simultaneously, then we won't know which changes were helpful and which were possibly unnecessary (or harmful).
to be honest if you think the ghost is the only problem, then a logical buff which wouldn't change a lot in ZvP would be to reduce the shields of a unit but buff it's HP by the same amount. e.g. give the Stalker 30 less shields and 30 more HP. Not sure how much that would help, but it shouldn't effect ZvP and it wouldn't change the balance of TvP that much either, except reduce the damage ghosts do to stalkers.
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Watching the Puma vs HasuObs games, the only takeaway for me is how difficult it is for a protoss to scout before the observer is out and, consequently, how easy it is for a terran to abuse that fact and just play mind games to completely confuse the protoss.
I think making hallu an innate ability instead of GS would address this to some extent.
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On October 05 2011 07:03 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 04 2011 20:57 TacticalLemur wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Zealot: Give back the 10 shields that were taken away in the beta from Broodwar.
Make Charge 150/150 like in Broodwar or separate the leg speed and charge. Put leg speed on the cybercore to help against speedlings, speed roaches, maruader slow and stim. Leave the charge ability on the Twilight council. Protoss is usually gas starved to any reduction in the cost of this upgrade or even moving it would be a big help.
Lower build time by 5 seconds and fucking leave it alone. I should be able to chrono out zealots for early aggression not chrono out zealots so the build time is normal.
Stalker: A slight base damage increase is in order I think. They need to be able to kill marines, zerglings, and workers in fewer shots than they do. A 125/50 unit should not lose to marines with no upgrades without taking serious loses but that's not the case. Their uprades should scale a little better also. Either +2 +0 upgrades or +1 +1 upgrades. Just depends on the base damage increase. Stalkers have worse base damage than a 50 mineral marine so this change really should go through.
Sentries. Sentry "good unit" they cost a a lot of gas but forcefields are quite good. If any change was done to the sentry I'd want a range increase so they don't get picked off as easily. I try to micro them back and they just get stuck on stalkers and then raped. Again not necessary they are meant to be vulnerable considering how good they are. They could add hallucinated observers like people mentioned probably a year ago. Would help against coin flip builds and make gateway style safe against cloak or borrow units.
DarkTemplar: get rid of the dark shrine. DT expand should be a viable build and I guess it is to a certain degree but the investment that it takes may end the game for you. With the change to the overseer I don't forsee this being horrible against Zerg; plus Zergs always get spores to stop stargate play or even DTs to begin with. Add time to the templar archives and the twilight council if time is an issue. The Citadal of Adun and the Templar Archives were 60 seconds in Broodwar their counterparts in SC2 are 50 seconds. I would take whatever time increase they want to throw out to be able to chose to make DTs or HTs depending on what I might scout.
High Templar: Increase the movement speed to 2.25. This is the same speed as the other casters and the speed of many protoss units such as the colossus, immortal, sentry, and zealot without speed. Bring back Broodwar Khaydarin Amulet 62/250 energy would be fine with me. Less time to wait on storm and more energy to be taken away with EMP.
Immortal: lower build time by 5-10 seconds. It was raised in the beta because immortal busts on terran were imba but I think modern terrans would laugh at such a push now. This would help against 1/1/1 play.
Colossus: I hate making colossus for sure especially in PvP. I think the colossus should have a damage nerf in favor of stronger gateway units. To offset this change maybe make the AOE of the colossus bigger.
Void Ray: Void rays are situational but still quite good even though they cost 150 gas. The only change I would make right now is give them the 1 armor back that was taken away in the beta to compensate for the other nerfs. They evaporate pretty badly to marine fire so this would help in that respect.
Carrier: The most common change brought up for this unit is the build time. 120 seconds is a little too long. I'd recommend 100 seconds which is 10 seconds more than a Battlecruiser. Carriers have to build 4 interceptors to become useful in battle anyway so this build time change will offset that. And I think the Carrier should get it's 4 armor back. Carriers melt to Marines and that simply shouldn't happen. The interceptors themselves need a change also; they should bring back the healing aspect from Broodwar but that might be too strong so maybe increase the heal/shields/armor of the interceptors so they can take more punishment.
Mothership: Most useless unit in SC2. Can be good but easily destroyed and costs too much. They already pretty much reverted the acceleration change they made in patch 2 of the beta and then some. I think they should just revert all of those changes; I don't see any of them as game breaking considering how bad the Mothership is now.
Archons, Warp Prisms, Phoenix, and Observers seem to be in a good place right now. They serve their purpose. A lot of this stuff has been said before over the past year but I just wanted to see what people think now that Protoss is struggling at the professional level. As a Protoss player, these buffs would all be nice (and by now it should be clear that we need *something*), but we can't exactly ask for everything lol. One tiny tweak can change a whole match-up. Blizzard started with the immortal getting buffed. We may need a gateway unit getting buffed as well (or the ghost getting nerfed), but let's see what happens. I think we need to buff (or nerf) one thing at a time, so we can measure the effects of that one particular change. If we change too much simultaneously, then we won't know which changes were helpful and which were possibly unnecessary (or harmful). to be honest if you think the ghost is the only problem, then a logical buff which wouldn't change a lot in ZvP would be to reduce the shields of a unit but buff it's HP by the same amount. e.g. give the Stalker 30 less shields and 30 more HP. Not sure how much that would help, but it shouldn't effect ZvP and it wouldn't change the balance of TvP that much either, except reduce the damage ghosts do to stalkers.
Shields are there because they regenerate. Reducing them WOULD affect every matchup. Blink stalkers would be less viable, etc.
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On October 05 2011 07:03 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 04 2011 20:57 TacticalLemur wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Zealot: Give back the 10 shields that were taken away in the beta from Broodwar.
Make Charge 150/150 like in Broodwar or separate the leg speed and charge. Put leg speed on the cybercore to help against speedlings, speed roaches, maruader slow and stim. Leave the charge ability on the Twilight council. Protoss is usually gas starved to any reduction in the cost of this upgrade or even moving it would be a big help.
Lower build time by 5 seconds and fucking leave it alone. I should be able to chrono out zealots for early aggression not chrono out zealots so the build time is normal.
Stalker: A slight base damage increase is in order I think. They need to be able to kill marines, zerglings, and workers in fewer shots than they do. A 125/50 unit should not lose to marines with no upgrades without taking serious loses but that's not the case. Their uprades should scale a little better also. Either +2 +0 upgrades or +1 +1 upgrades. Just depends on the base damage increase. Stalkers have worse base damage than a 50 mineral marine so this change really should go through.
Sentries. Sentry "good unit" they cost a a lot of gas but forcefields are quite good. If any change was done to the sentry I'd want a range increase so they don't get picked off as easily. I try to micro them back and they just get stuck on stalkers and then raped. Again not necessary they are meant to be vulnerable considering how good they are. They could add hallucinated observers like people mentioned probably a year ago. Would help against coin flip builds and make gateway style safe against cloak or borrow units.
DarkTemplar: get rid of the dark shrine. DT expand should be a viable build and I guess it is to a certain degree but the investment that it takes may end the game for you. With the change to the overseer I don't forsee this being horrible against Zerg; plus Zergs always get spores to stop stargate play or even DTs to begin with. Add time to the templar archives and the twilight council if time is an issue. The Citadal of Adun and the Templar Archives were 60 seconds in Broodwar their counterparts in SC2 are 50 seconds. I would take whatever time increase they want to throw out to be able to chose to make DTs or HTs depending on what I might scout.
High Templar: Increase the movement speed to 2.25. This is the same speed as the other casters and the speed of many protoss units such as the colossus, immortal, sentry, and zealot without speed. Bring back Broodwar Khaydarin Amulet 62/250 energy would be fine with me. Less time to wait on storm and more energy to be taken away with EMP.
Immortal: lower build time by 5-10 seconds. It was raised in the beta because immortal busts on terran were imba but I think modern terrans would laugh at such a push now. This would help against 1/1/1 play.
Colossus: I hate making colossus for sure especially in PvP. I think the colossus should have a damage nerf in favor of stronger gateway units. To offset this change maybe make the AOE of the colossus bigger.
Void Ray: Void rays are situational but still quite good even though they cost 150 gas. The only change I would make right now is give them the 1 armor back that was taken away in the beta to compensate for the other nerfs. They evaporate pretty badly to marine fire so this would help in that respect.
Carrier: The most common change brought up for this unit is the build time. 120 seconds is a little too long. I'd recommend 100 seconds which is 10 seconds more than a Battlecruiser. Carriers have to build 4 interceptors to become useful in battle anyway so this build time change will offset that. And I think the Carrier should get it's 4 armor back. Carriers melt to Marines and that simply shouldn't happen. The interceptors themselves need a change also; they should bring back the healing aspect from Broodwar but that might be too strong so maybe increase the heal/shields/armor of the interceptors so they can take more punishment.
Mothership: Most useless unit in SC2. Can be good but easily destroyed and costs too much. They already pretty much reverted the acceleration change they made in patch 2 of the beta and then some. I think they should just revert all of those changes; I don't see any of them as game breaking considering how bad the Mothership is now.
Archons, Warp Prisms, Phoenix, and Observers seem to be in a good place right now. They serve their purpose. A lot of this stuff has been said before over the past year but I just wanted to see what people think now that Protoss is struggling at the professional level. As a Protoss player, these buffs would all be nice (and by now it should be clear that we need *something*), but we can't exactly ask for everything lol. One tiny tweak can change a whole match-up. Blizzard started with the immortal getting buffed. We may need a gateway unit getting buffed as well (or the ghost getting nerfed), but let's see what happens. I think we need to buff (or nerf) one thing at a time, so we can measure the effects of that one particular change. If we change too much simultaneously, then we won't know which changes were helpful and which were possibly unnecessary (or harmful). to be honest if you think the ghost is the only problem, then a logical buff which wouldn't change a lot in ZvP would be to reduce the shields of a unit but buff it's HP by the same amount. e.g. give the Stalker 30 less shields and 30 more HP. Not sure how much that would help, but it shouldn't effect ZvP and it wouldn't change the balance of TvP that much either, except reduce the damage ghosts do to stalkers.
Changing the amount of shields and hp is an interesting idea (although I think that lowering the amount of health that can regenerate would hurt any match-up), but I think ghosts are really the trump card with the fact that they're the caster that kills off every other caster. Slightly lowering the radius of EMP or shortening the range might help too (since ghosts can currently outrange high templar and get off their shots automatically anyway).
My two major concerns are dealing with ghosts (which can't be done atm) and stopping the 1/1/1 (which can't really be done either). And 1/1/1 can take care of Protoss in the early or mid game, and ghosts can wreck Protoss balls (even with a decent spread) in the mid or late game.
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Perhaps there should be two threads, one "Reasonable Balance Discussion Forum" and one "Balance Wishlist Forum."
Balance is a difficult factor to pin down, because the different races are supposed to have different advantages, and those are not imbalance. Or more accurately, those are "local imbalances," and local imbalances are good. The game should be universally balanced, but universal balance is only achieved when all the local imbalances are add up and somehow come out equal. The idea that apples are better than oranges in some respects, and worse than oranges in other respects, but when you add up all the inequalities of value, they should come out equal.
So comments of "this race's ability X is better than this race's ability Y" are only comments on local imbalances, assuming they're even true. And since I doubt anyone thinks they can identify every local imbalance in the game, and somehow quantify them in universal units of "winning-ness" so that they could be added up, balance cannot be identified this way. And you can look at win rates, but a "balanced" game should be balanced no matter what strategies people are using, and win rates are affected by the meta-game as much as they are affected by the actual game mechanics.
That being said, complaints of "strategy X is too hard to beat by this race" are meta-game issues, not necessarily balance issues. Protoss players are having trouble with a 1-1-1 build, so they go back to the drawing board and try to figure out a build that can compete (with appropriate deviations based on scouting a 1-1-1, rax-heavy play, etc.). Remember when Terrans were having trouble with mass-colossus plays? And then when Protoss tried to protect their colossi from vikings by building phoenix? The process of making a build order is the process of trying to make a build that can't be beaten, and then when things can beat it, you modify it a little so that can't beat it either. Once it's screwed up enough that no modification can save it from losses, then you go back to the drawing board and figure out another build.
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On October 05 2011 06:44 Nin-x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 00:47 zbedlam wrote:
I don't think his post should be taken too seriously. If any of those changes were implemented it would basically break ZvP. Although I do agree colossi need something done to them, something like a redesign.
Current state of TvP is bad, granted; but remember protoss can still field the strongest endgame army. None of their units need buffs, I feel they need a defenders advantage against terran.
I'd love to see something like the BW shield battery brought back. It would make for a great defenders advantage =)
Added with a salvage option, it's going to be awesome 
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On October 05 2011 07:35 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 06:44 Nin-x wrote:On October 05 2011 00:47 zbedlam wrote:
I don't think his post should be taken too seriously. If any of those changes were implemented it would basically break ZvP. Although I do agree colossi need something done to them, something like a redesign.
Current state of TvP is bad, granted; but remember protoss can still field the strongest endgame army. None of their units need buffs, I feel they need a defenders advantage against terran.
I'd love to see something like the BW shield battery brought back. It would make for a great defenders advantage =) Added with a salvage option, it's going to be awesome
Also make it so that they can be moved/re-positioned =)
On a more serious note, I think it would be nice if cannons received some kind of a mid to late game upgrade in HotS. Terrans have Hi-Sec Auto Tracking and Neosteel Frame. They can also repair their buidings. Zergs have transfuse.
Cannons are fine in the early game (good enough to cannon rush with) but in late game they die so easily. They don't benefit from armor upgrades and shield upgrades are almost never upgraded anyway.
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On October 05 2011 07:55 eugalp wrote:
easily. They don't benefit from armor upgrades and shield upgrades are almost never upgraded anyway.
Upgrade shields then. Seriously, from what I am seeing in GSL and all tournaments in Europe, terran is actually the race that struggles a lot on a professional level. Sure, there are the monsters MMA, MVP and some other Korean Terrans that make it look easy playing terra. But as far as European/American terrans go, apart from Thorzain, none has done anything out of the expected. Also, I notice that if a tournament has like 3 zergs, 6 protoss and 10 terran, it takes about 3 terrans to knock down a zerg, and 2 to knock down a protoss. I actually think that protoss doesn't even play at half of the potential of the race, and zerg is now learning to play and discovering new styles, which is the reason why zerg wins so many tournaments nowadays.
To me, it actually seems pretty imbalanced that if a tournament like the GSL, for example, has 7 zergs, 20 terrans and like 5 protosses, in ro16 there are already 6 zergs (85%) !!!!, 9 terrans and 1 protoss. Meanwhile, in gstl, when MVP was fighting Hoseo, the only terran did not even come close to winning even 2 consecutive games as most zergs do nowadays. Comeon, it takes 5 terrans in a row of the caliber of MVP, MMA, Bomber to finally take down Losira, Nestea, Coca or DRG out of a tournament?
Blizzard have also noticed this and that is why the serious nerfs on infestor and the buff of ultra (something terrans do prefer to fight against, as opposed to broodlords).
The severe buff on terran - the raven's seeker, is also an indication of the fact that Blizzard understand that recent patches and metagame shifts have made the terran relatively weak as compared to other races.
Somebody might say that the BFH nerf is because blizzard feel blue flame hellions are too powerful. I agree with that, but it is not because they are too powerful in the TvZ or TvP matchup. I have rarely seen a professional sc2 game that is won by BFH that is not a TvT matchup. Hence the nerf of BFH is not because of racial imbalance but to force a metagame shift in T mirror
If you disagree
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Here's a thought on cannons for late game.
Blizzard had original designed cannons in SC2 to be able to move around in pylon fields. This is obviously totally broken when one considers cannon rushes.
Adding this ability back in as an upgrade (I'd prefer something cheap and short research time) would give cannons a little more functionality in the late game without breaking the early game.
That being said, I don't necessarily think this is a good idea. It's just a thought that occurred to me reading the last few posts on this thread.
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On October 05 2011 00:54 QTIP. wrote:From the OP of this thread in the IEM thread. Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 15:34 Techno wrote:
Hasuu is playing like a pussy, he keeps cowarding away from engagements and getting destroyed because hes not dictating the engagements.
Just 1a like a good protoss.
User was temp banned for this post. So much for having the right mindset for constructive balance discussion. Pathetic.
quit trashing on him. he was probably angry and raged-filled and that thread has nothing to do with this thread.
he made a good attempt at a balance thread and you should get off his nuts.
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On October 04 2011 23:01 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 02:38 NoobSkills wrote:Anyone ever look at balance this way? In broodwar no patches were ever made (from what I see) to change the effects of the units unless it was considered a glitch. http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&articleId=21150Now, in Starcraft Vanilla there was a monetary change to the spawning pool changing the mineral requirement from 150 to 200 because of how effective a zergling rush could be. That change made it so the VERY early game was not imbalanced. this is very wrong, many things were changed + Show Spoiler +--------------------
Balance Changes 1.08
--------------------
TERRAN:
Valkyrie:
- Damage increase to 6 per missile.
- Acceleration and velocity increased slightly.
- Build time decreased.
Science Facility:
- Build time decreased.
- Irradiate research cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
- Yamato Cannon research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Missile Turret:
- Decreased cost to 75 minerals.
Factory:
- Charon Missile Booster research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Dropship:
- Increased speed.
Goliath:
- Increased ground attack range.
Battle Cruiser:
- Build time decreased.
- Supply cost decreased to 6.
PROTOSS:
Dragoon:
- Build time increased.
Scout:
- Decreased cost to 275 minerals, 125 gas.
Carrier:
- Supply cost decreased to 6.
Templar:
- Psi Storm Damage reduced.
Corsair:
- Disruption Web spell duration decreased.
Zealot:
- Shields decreased to 60 and hit points increased to 100.
ZERG:
Queen:
- Decreased build cost to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Ultralisk:
- Supply cost decreased to 4.
Queen's Nest:
- Spawn Broodling cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Hydralisk Den:
- Lurker Aspect cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
- Hydralisk speed upgrade cost increased to 150 minerals, 150 gas.
Spawning Pool:
- Increased build cost to 200 minerals
Sunken Colony:
- Building armor increased to 2.
- Hit points decreased to 300. 1.08 was the final balance patch, then warcraft 3 went into alpha testing and from thereon they only released patches for bugfixes 1.08 came out way after broodwar did
Thank you for grabbing that for me. I knew there were some changes especially the spawning pool one. I didn't think there were this many, though, all of them together =/= even one SC2 patch. Also a lot of them seem well thought out and mostly about upgrading weak units, changing spells that didn't matter, and fixing costs of upgrades which was my guess at making certain things viable, not to equal out the races. Even still they changed things about the game ONE time, to make more units useful, 3 years after it release, and NOT as a knee jerk reaction to people whining on Blizzard's forums. Thank you again for posting that though. I find the information interesting.
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