I'm calling it OP because it's OP. There are plenty of pro level games where it's occurred, I believe someone made a popular reddit post on the subject where they showed various games of archon toilet still occuring, the most recent example happened to Destiny but it's happened to quite a few others recently too. I believe a caster named Kommissar made a bunch of videos talking about archon toilets still going on as well:
Blizzard DID 'deal' with this accordingly, but they actually didn't fix it at all. In fact, it made it worse if anything for Zerg because it just made it so banelings all instantly die when coming out of a vortex if enemy units are in it, but the enemy units receive no damage.
I'm not even talking about other mothership strategies. Why do you keep talking about stuff that I'm not even talking about? What the fuck.
told for various struggles they have (Think of the Toss domination a while back where everyone was claiming Protoss was broken because of crazy timing attacks, or the 2rax marine/scv all-in back 10 months ago against zerg).
You mean the same 2 rax all-in that was patched with bunker build times and rax build times, and the same 2 rax all-in that forced Blizzard to scrap all the short maps like Steppes of War? You mean the same Toss domination that occurred until Blizz buffed FG because there was nothing Zerg could do against it? Cool
That's kind of like how Blizz patched archon toilet because they said it was fucking broken as shit, except the patch didn't change anything.
All I meant to do was make a sarcastic comment on how Protoss were told for months by zergs (not you I'm guessing but many other zergs) to just spread things out and it wasn't a problem with fungal but you took it waaaaay out of proportion. Perhaps you should maybe read a post more than once and think about what was being said, and the tone of the post before immediately responding with aggression. It's basic forum etiquette.
So the only reason your in this thread is to troll. Awesome. Thanks for contributing. Maybe you should like, not post 'sarcastic' troll comments that don't do anything to contribute to the conversation. If all you are going to do is flame then go somewhere else. It's basic forum etiquette around here, you know, to not fucking troll.
On October 07 2011 12:16 Belial88 wrote: I'm calling it OP because it's OP. There are plenty of pro level games where it's occurred, I believe someone made a popular reddit post on the subject where they showed various games of archon toilet still occuring, the most recent example happened to Destiny but it's happened to quite a few others recently too. I believe a caster named Kommissar made a bunch of videos talking about archon toilets still going on as well:
Blizzard DID 'deal' with this accordingly, but they actually didn't fix it at all. In fact, it made it worse if anything for Zerg because it just made it so banelings all instantly die when coming out of a vortex if enemy units are in it, but the enemy units receive no damage.
I'm not even talking about other mothership strategies. Why do you keep talking about stuff that I'm not even talking about? What the fuck.
told for various struggles they have (Think of the Toss domination a while back where everyone was claiming Protoss was broken because of crazy timing attacks, or the 2rax marine/scv all-in back 10 months ago against zerg).
You mean the same 2 rax all-in that was patched with bunker build times and rax build times, and the same 2 rax all-in that forced Blizzard to scrap all the short maps like Steppes of War? You mean the same Toss domination that occurred until Blizz buffed FG because there was nothing Zerg could do against it? Cool
That's kind of like how Blizz patched archon toilet because they said it was fucking broken as shit, except the patch didn't change anything.
All I meant to do was make a sarcastic comment on how Protoss were told for months by zergs (not you I'm guessing but many other zergs) to just spread things out and it wasn't a problem with fungal but you took it waaaaay out of proportion. Perhaps you should maybe read a post more than once and think about what was being said, and the tone of the post before immediately responding with aggression. It's basic forum etiquette.
So the only reason your in this thread is to troll. Awesome. Thanks for contributing. Maybe you should like, not post 'sarcastic' troll comments that don't do anything to contribute to the conversation. If all you are going to do is flame then go somewhere else. It's basic forum etiquette around here, you know, to not fucking troll.
You are such a stupid baby. I bet you have been archon toileted maybe once on ladder, and because of that, you think its OP. I know you think you're the best player on the world and that every time you lose, its because something or another is OP, but please, get real. Tell me the last time an archon toilet has happened in a major tournament, because I'm pretty sure its never happened. If its so OP, why doesn't every toss use it?
Its pretty hilarious that you're flaming a guy for posting "sarcastic troll comments", while it seems to me that all of your last paragraph is sarcastic. Hypocrite much?
I'm going to just post what I think should be changed to help balance PvT...
- Mules should require 1 supply while in use (so terran can't have a larger army due to very low scv count late game).
- EMP should be a research spell with a research time similar to storm (help reduce the potency of ghost pushes, they are fricken powerful).
- Something needs to be done with Ghost's normal attack, not sure if removing it entirely is the best choice but maybe some sort of nerf.
- Medivac requires an upgrade at tech lab starport for 100/100 that allows them to heal (again medivac timings against protoss are very strong).
- Banshee speed is slowed so a stalker can outrun them or their attack is nerfed so it requires 3 shots to kill workers (too cost effective and hard to chase down and help a bit vs the 1/1/1).
- Robo build time and cost reduced (to help get obs out faster so toss has a bit easier time scouting terran all ins and has enough time to react).
- Something still needs to be done late game templar vs ghost, maybe reduce emp and snipe range or have guardian shield or protoss shield upgrades help protect vs emp because once terran gets like 8+ ghosts in their army storm is pretty much useless and not viable to get.
- Remove concussive from the game or make it require the factory (Artosis + a 50/50 spell that completes by the time your first marauder gets to your opponent's base is kinda rediculous...)
Feel free to disagree, but I'm pretty sure none of this stuff would over nerf terran or make them weak, they are a great race even when they don't utilize all of their advantages.
archon toilet is no more ridiculous than infestor broodlord. it's more expensive and is more or less the only way to counter the aforementioned. once zerg gets infestor broodlord, protoss is on their back foot no matter what they have. at least with archon toilet we have an option.
On October 07 2011 12:33 Whiplash wrote: I'm going to just post what I think should be changed to help balance PvT...
- Mules should require 1 supply while in use (so terran can't have a larger army due to very low scv count late game).
- EMP should be a research spell with a research time similar to storm (help reduce the potency of ghost pushes, they are fricken powerful).
- Something needs to be done with Ghost's normal attack, not sure if removing it entirely is the best choice but maybe some sort of nerf.
- Medivac requires an upgrade at tech lab starport for 100/100 that allows them to heal (again medivac timings against protoss are very strong).
- Banshee speed is slowed so a stalker can outrun them or their attack is nerfed so it requires 3 shots to kill workers (too cost effective and hard to chase down and help a bit vs the 1/1/1).
- Robo build time and cost reduced (to help get obs out faster so toss has a bit easier time scouting terran all ins and has enough time to react).
- Something still needs to be done late game templar vs ghost, maybe reduce emp and snipe range or have guardian shield or protoss shield upgrades help protect vs emp because once terran gets like 8+ ghosts in their army storm is pretty much useless and not viable to get.
- Remove concussive from the game or make it require the factory (Artosis + a 50/50 spell that completes by the time your first marauder gets to your opponent's base is kinda rediculous...)
Feel free to disagree, but I'm pretty sure none of this stuff would over nerf terran or make them weak, they are a great race even when they don't utilize all of their advantages.
All of these changes seem reasonable, but not all of them at the same time. If all of these changes were put into place, Ghosts, Medivacs, Banshees, and Maruders all get big nerfs, which I feel is too much. Maybe if 1 or 2 of the nerfs went through, that would be good, but not all of them, because that would overnerf terran.
On October 07 2011 12:16 Belial88 wrote: I'm calling it OP because it's OP. There are plenty of pro level games where it's occurred, I believe someone made a popular reddit post on the subject where they showed various games of archon toilet still occuring, the most recent example happened to Destiny but it's happened to quite a few others recently too. I believe a caster named Kommissar made a bunch of videos talking about archon toilets still going on as well:
Blizzard DID 'deal' with this accordingly, but they actually didn't fix it at all. In fact, it made it worse if anything for Zerg because it just made it so banelings all instantly die when coming out of a vortex if enemy units are in it, but the enemy units receive no damage.
I'm not even talking about other mothership strategies. Why do you keep talking about stuff that I'm not even talking about? What the fuck.
told for various struggles they have (Think of the Toss domination a while back where everyone was claiming Protoss was broken because of crazy timing attacks, or the 2rax marine/scv all-in back 10 months ago against zerg).
You mean the same 2 rax all-in that was patched with bunker build times and rax build times, and the same 2 rax all-in that forced Blizzard to scrap all the short maps like Steppes of War? You mean the same Toss domination that occurred until Blizz buffed FG because there was nothing Zerg could do against it? Cool
That's kind of like how Blizz patched archon toilet because they said it was fucking broken as shit, except the patch didn't change anything.
All I meant to do was make a sarcastic comment on how Protoss were told for months by zergs (not you I'm guessing but many other zergs) to just spread things out and it wasn't a problem with fungal but you took it waaaaay out of proportion. Perhaps you should maybe read a post more than once and think about what was being said, and the tone of the post before immediately responding with aggression. It's basic forum etiquette.
So the only reason your in this thread is to troll. Awesome. Thanks for contributing. Maybe you should like, not post 'sarcastic' troll comments that don't do anything to contribute to the conversation. If all you are going to do is flame then go somewhere else. It's basic forum etiquette around here, you know, to not fucking troll.
At bold part....pot calling the kettle black? (Even though he was hardly serious and you are seriously serious)
Also, I think you may be waaaaaay off the mark here. It seems to be that archon toilet (or specifically Vortex) only works on banelings because of the way that banelings behave, NOT because vortex is broken.
Also, you are totally whining here for no apparent reason. "Toss Domination" ending was more of a meta game shift than anything. Infestors were good before....no one was using them, and the snare was even LONGER back then. Also, all of these 6-7-8 gate timing pushes were figured out by the time infestors got the buff.
On October 07 2011 12:25 kofman wrote: You are such a stupid baby. I bet you have been archon toileted maybe once on ladder, and because of that, you think its OP. I know you think you're the best player on the world and that every time you lose, its because something or another is OP, but please, get real. Tell me the last time an archon toilet has happened in a major tournament, because I'm pretty sure its never happened. If its so OP, why doesn't every toss use it?
Its pretty hilarious that you're flaming a guy for posting "sarcastic troll comments", while it seems to me that all of your last paragraph is sarcastic. Hypocrite much?
Don't bother, he'll just start attacking you too even though you are speaking with reason.
Mr. Belial, you should perhaps take a break from this thread. You are taking things waaaaaaaaaaaay to seriously. I don't mean to sound harsh, but you are getting far too worked up over a forum discussion.
I did discuss a few things in this thread a long while back (primarily the Raven having EMP instead of the ghost), but I stopped posting because the thread doesn't seem to be generating any good discussion about possible changes, which I thought was the purpose of this thread.
Back on topic. Whiplash, I love your ideas for the most part (though the medivac one would never go through). Mules costing supply makes tons of sense. I definitely agree about having EMP be an upgrade. For Snipe, I still think if the range was reduced to 8 or 9 it would solve a lot of the ghost vs. templar issues. But EMP still needs to be looked at, with regards to shield damage. The fact that it can instantly nullify half the health on most Protoss units seems a little off. Maybe have it do 50 shield damage?
Tell me the last time an archon toilet has happened in a major tournament, because I'm pretty sure its never happened. If its so OP, why doesn't every toss use it?
What difference does it make? It's either OP or not. And the youtube VOD shows pro-level games where it's occurred.
"Toss Domination" ending was more of a meta game shift than anything. Infestors were good before....no one was using them, and the snare was even LONGER back then. Also, all of these 6-7-8 gate timing pushes were figured out by the time infestors got the buff.
Um... no they weren't? Ling/Infestor pre-buff would get owned because it didn't do enough damage. The reason people went with hydras over infestors before the buff was because the early-midgame Zerg army needs DPS, which pure roach and zerglings just didn't offer. That, and a need to deal with sentries, which infestors post-patch dealt with better than hydras.
And 6-7-8 gate timing pushes have nothing to do with infestors. These timing pushes all come way before Zerg would have any lair tech out in adequate numbers, except for burrow roach. Gateway timings got owned by Zerg going mass ling/roach on hatch tech 3 base or Zerg using mass spines and scouting easier on maps with smaller mains, not because of any lair tech.
I've already discussed 'toss domination' and the metagame in this thread already, and I've already pointed out that Protoss is doing just fine against Zerg, even in the last few months, and that the GSL Code S results of a handful of games where things like Protoss losing to 6 pool or letting lings run into their base, or all the 'lower tier' protoss being matched up against the likes of Nestea or Losira, and the 'higher tier' protoss losing to terran and not Zerg.
I'm talking about Archon Toilet. Broken. That's it. It's amazing how die-hard some Protoss are, that even though Blizzard even said "archon toilet' in the patch notes, it's apparently okay... because of FG?
Tell me the last time an archon toilet has happened in a major tournament, because I'm pretty sure its never happened. If its so OP, why doesn't every toss use it?
What difference does it make? It's either OP or not. And the youtube VOD shows pro-level games where it's occurred.
"Toss Domination" ending was more of a meta game shift than anything. Infestors were good before....no one was using them, and the snare was even LONGER back then. Also, all of these 6-7-8 gate timing pushes were figured out by the time infestors got the buff.
Um... no they weren't? Ling/Infestor pre-buff would get owned because it didn't do enough damage. The reason people went with hydras over infestors before the buff was because the early-midgame Zerg army needs DPS, which pure roach and zerglings just didn't offer. That, and a need to deal with sentries, which infestors post-patch dealt with better than hydras.
And 6-7-8 gate timing pushes have nothing to do with infestors. These timing pushes all come way before Zerg would have any lair tech out in adequate numbers, except for burrow roach. Gateway timings got owned by Zerg going mass ling/roach on hatch tech 3 base or Zerg using mass spines and scouting easier on maps with smaller mains, not because of any lair tech.
I've already discussed 'toss domination' and the metagame in this thread already, and I've already pointed out that Protoss is doing just fine against Zerg, even in the last few months, and that the GSL Code S results of a handful of games where things like Protoss losing to 6 pool or letting lings run into their base, or all the 'lower tier' protoss being matched up against the likes of Nestea or Losira, and the 'higher tier' protoss losing to terran and not Zerg.
I'm talking about Archon Toilet. Broken. That's it. It's amazing how die-hard some Protoss are, that even though Blizzard even said "archon toilet' in the patch notes, it's apparently okay... because of FG?
Just because the archon toilet happens and works in 1 out of 1000 pro-level games, doesn't make it OP. I really don't understand why you are ranting so much about the archon toilet, it basically never happens. You probably just complain because thats all your good for.
No one here brought up FG, or how its OP. I don't get what your point is.
Would nerfing EMP to 50 damage and subsequent EMPs to 50% of the previous EMP help anything at all? So 50 shield damage first emp, 25 second emp, 12 next etc.?
Usually what I see is carpet-bombing EMPs though but this may be something to think about?
I'm not going to post in / read this thread anymore... it's poisonous for my mindset about balance and other players. I don't see it being productive for me in any way. I'm certainly not contributing anything valuable either. Hopefully the thread can still be useful for other people.
Yes I know, don't let the door hit my ass on the way out, you won't be missed etc.
On October 07 2011 13:26 the p00n wrote: Would nerfing EMP to 50 damage and subsequent EMPs to 50% of the previous EMP help anything at all? So 50 shield damage first emp, 25 second emp, 12 next etc.?
Usually what I see is carpet-bombing EMPs though but this may be something to think about?
It would be difficult to implement. That's the only issue I see.
My reasoning for 50 shield damage would be that the EMP is that, when looking at the other two spells, it is the middle ground. Fungal does less damage but ensnares, and storm does more but can be dodged. EMP is instant but does not stop/slow your units in any way. 50 damage would at least allow immortals to continue using their hardened shield, making it more worth while to use them against MMMG.
To deal with carpet bombing, just put ghosts at their old cost, the new new makes it so much easier to justify getting many ghosts because you get 3 for the equivalent amount of gas for 2 of the other casters, and minerals are not a resource Terran ever lacks at the point of the game where ghosts come into play anyway, which makes it even easier to justify extra ghosts since Terrans need an (additional) mineral sink anyway.
Just because the archon toilet happens and works in 1 out of 1000 pro-level games, doesn't make it OP. I really don't understand why you are ranting so much about the archon toilet, it basically never happens. You probably just complain because thats all your good for.
No one here brought up FG, or how its OP. I don't get what your point is.
Right. It's OP because 1 mothership and 5 archons can trash any army, and Blizz clearly stated that this isn't working as intended. It's a spell to cut a part of the enemy army off, not to stop all fighting and actually throw in your own units with. It's broken more than OP, although it is also OP that having a mothership is incentive for toss to carry around 5 archons and just toilet whenever they can. There's nothing Zerg can do to combat against toilets, unless they want to avoid making anything but zerglings against Protoss.
On October 07 2011 13:28 QTIP. wrote: I'm not going to post in / read this thread anymore... it's poisonous for my mindset about balance and other players. I don't see it being productive for me in any way. I'm certainly not contributing anything valuable either. Hopefully the thread can still be useful for other people.
Yes I know, don't let the door hit my ass on the way out, you won't be missed etc.
- gl hf
This thread should be moved to the Blizzard Forums.
On October 07 2011 12:16 Belial88 wrote: I'm calling it OP because it's OP. There are plenty of pro level games where it's occurred, I believe someone made a popular reddit post on the subject where they showed various games of archon toilet still occuring, the most recent example happened to Destiny but it's happened to quite a few others recently too. I believe a caster named Kommissar made a bunch of videos talking about archon toilets still going on as well:
Blizzard DID 'deal' with this accordingly, but they actually didn't fix it at all. In fact, it made it worse if anything for Zerg because it just made it so banelings all instantly die when coming out of a vortex if enemy units are in it, but the enemy units receive no damage.
I'm not even talking about other mothership strategies. Why do you keep talking about stuff that I'm not even talking about? What the fuck.
told for various struggles they have (Think of the Toss domination a while back where everyone was claiming Protoss was broken because of crazy timing attacks, or the 2rax marine/scv all-in back 10 months ago against zerg).
You mean the same 2 rax all-in that was patched with bunker build times and rax build times, and the same 2 rax all-in that forced Blizzard to scrap all the short maps like Steppes of War? You mean the same Toss domination that occurred until Blizz buffed FG because there was nothing Zerg could do against it? Cool
That's kind of like how Blizz patched archon toilet because they said it was fucking broken as shit, except the patch didn't change anything.
All I meant to do was make a sarcastic comment on how Protoss were told for months by zergs (not you I'm guessing but many other zergs) to just spread things out and it wasn't a problem with fungal but you took it waaaaay out of proportion. Perhaps you should maybe read a post more than once and think about what was being said, and the tone of the post before immediately responding with aggression. It's basic forum etiquette.
So the only reason your in this thread is to troll. Awesome. Thanks for contributing. Maybe you should like, not post 'sarcastic' troll comments that don't do anything to contribute to the conversation. If all you are going to do is flame then go somewhere else. It's basic forum etiquette around here, you know, to not fucking troll.
At bold part....pot calling the kettle black? (Even though he was hardly serious and you are seriously serious)
Also, I think you may be waaaaaay off the mark here. It seems to be that archon toilet (or specifically Vortex) only works on banelings because of the way that banelings behave, NOT because vortex is broken.
Also, you are totally whining here for no apparent reason. "Toss Domination" ending was more of a meta game shift than anything. Infestors were good before....no one was using them, and the snare was even LONGER back then. Also, all of these 6-7-8 gate timing pushes were figured out by the time infestors got the buff.
just a correction: yes, infestors were good before the patch yes, noone was using them yes, the fungal growth duration was longer before
but the fungal duration decrease was actually a fungal buff since it essentially doubled the dps of the spell, which means it could actually kill stuff, so arguing that the duration decrease supposedly is a bad thing is wrong, the fungal change made people more inclined to use infestors, you seem to be claiming the opposite.
or I just misunderstood.
some numbers on dps evolution: original dps = X after buff = 2X after the recent nerf = 2X * 5/6 = 10X/6 ≈ 1.6667X
so bringing up the recent nerf is useless, the total dps is still 66% greater than it was originally.
(and assuming you produce enough infestors to carpet-fungal the enemy army during the battle the duration is not a problem (if 3 fungals are enough to cover most of the enemy army, and the battle goes on for 20 seconds, you need 15 fungal growths which is 8 infestors worth of fungals, note: 20 seconds is a very long time for a battle, and deathballs can generally be completely covered by 3 fungals. 8 infestors = 1200 gas which is quite easy to get if you save up for it))
in my opinion as a zerg infestors are way OP, but the rest of zerg in general is UP so they need a really strong mid-game unit, thus balanced.
On October 07 2011 12:33 Whiplash wrote: I'm going to just post what I think should be changed to help balance PvT...
- Mules should require 1 supply while in use (so terran can't have a larger army due to very low scv count late game).
- EMP should be a research spell with a research time similar to storm (help reduce the potency of ghost pushes, they are fricken powerful).
- Something needs to be done with Ghost's normal attack, not sure if removing it entirely is the best choice but maybe some sort of nerf.
- Medivac requires an upgrade at tech lab starport for 100/100 that allows them to heal (again medivac timings against protoss are very strong).
- Banshee speed is slowed so a stalker can outrun them or their attack is nerfed so it requires 3 shots to kill workers (too cost effective and hard to chase down and help a bit vs the 1/1/1).
- Robo build time and cost reduced (to help get obs out faster so toss has a bit easier time scouting terran all ins and has enough time to react).
- Something still needs to be done late game templar vs ghost, maybe reduce emp and snipe range or have guardian shield or protoss shield upgrades help protect vs emp because once terran gets like 8+ ghosts in their army storm is pretty much useless and not viable to get.
- Remove concussive from the game or make it require the factory (Artosis + a 50/50 spell that completes by the time your first marauder gets to your opponent's base is kinda rediculous...)
Feel free to disagree, but I'm pretty sure none of this stuff would over nerf terran or make them weak, they are a great race even when they don't utilize all of their advantages.
All of these changes seem reasonable, but not all of them at the same time. If all of these changes were put into place, Ghosts, Medivacs, Banshees, and Maruders all get big nerfs, which I feel is too much. Maybe if 1 or 2 of the nerfs went through, that would be good, but not all of them, because that would overnerf terran.
Kinda agree with some of the above suggestions. However I think they should be accompanied by buffs to tank(35+35 ?). Also swapping EMP with a Raven spell (PDD ? ) might fix ghost issues. Come to think of it ghost is a stealth unit and a pdd might provide some cover for him while escaping if detected. Sort of makes sense logically . And coming to the concussive shells there seem to be a large number of anti micro spells in SC2 which spoil the fun i.e. concussive shells, fungal growth and force fields.These should be looked at.Fungal and force fields at-least require some action to cast but with concussive shells its enough to a-move a marauder. And talking about the marauder a unit which slows + has stim + has tons of health and also does ridiculous amounts of damage definitely seems overpowered. If marauders were nerfed it will even make TvT move more towards marine/tank or mech. In the case of toss, early game defense requires usage of gas heavy spell casters, gas being the most precious of the two resources, also required for teching, which just seems to be bad game design. Its almost as if blizzard ran out of ideas when trying to balance early game and late game toss. Also another thing that bothers me is the balling up of units. It just seems so unnatural to see 200 supply worth of units fit within the area of a command center. I would prefer to see the units given some breathing room and spread out a bit more. The only problem is that changing all of the above opens a huge can of worms. Its almost like starting from scratch on balance. I'm hoping HOTS will bring about some nice changes and units. Lets see...
On October 07 2011 12:33 Whiplash wrote: I'm going to just post what I think should be changed to help balance PvT...
- Mules should require 1 supply while in use (so terran can't have a larger army due to very low scv count late game).
- EMP should be a research spell with a research time similar to storm (help reduce the potency of ghost pushes, they are fricken powerful).
- Something needs to be done with Ghost's normal attack, not sure if removing it entirely is the best choice but maybe some sort of nerf.
- Medivac requires an upgrade at tech lab starport for 100/100 that allows them to heal (again medivac timings against protoss are very strong).
- Banshee speed is slowed so a stalker can outrun them or their attack is nerfed so it requires 3 shots to kill workers (too cost effective and hard to chase down and help a bit vs the 1/1/1).
- Robo build time and cost reduced (to help get obs out faster so toss has a bit easier time scouting terran all ins and has enough time to react).
- Something still needs to be done late game templar vs ghost, maybe reduce emp and snipe range or have guardian shield or protoss shield upgrades help protect vs emp because once terran gets like 8+ ghosts in their army storm is pretty much useless and not viable to get.
- Remove concussive from the game or make it require the factory (Artosis + a 50/50 spell that completes by the time your first marauder gets to your opponent's base is kinda rediculous...)
Feel free to disagree, but I'm pretty sure none of this stuff would over nerf terran or make them weak, they are a great race even when they don't utilize all of their advantages.
#1 and #2 are reasonable, but the rest..
#3 I have no idea how you think that the ghost attack is too strong. A zealot (no charge) beats a ghost 1on1 head on. I have also never seen the ghost attack actually make a difference in battle, except in the 'invis vs no detection' scenario. They already have sentry DPS against non-light units.
#4 Would have a huge impact simply because a terran going for medivacs avoids a techlab on the starport (for good reason). It seems that you want to nerf down any kind of aggression aside from the marine/tank/banshee.
#5 Guess what: Stalkers already outrun every terran air unit.
#6 You obviously have never considered the Terran side. 3gate/robo with immortals against a 1rax or 2 rax FE is ridiculously strong due to stim taking forever to research. Even with 3 bunkers in a choke toss can run down the defense and crush the terran. Toss already has complete map dominance and can scout the front whereas Terran is in the dark aside from scans (which is a horrible idea). Have toss build obvservers from a nexus with cybercore prereq and a 100sec build time. Same effect (and toss can now choose not to go robo - but who am I kidding.. they want their lazer giraffes) without buffing immortal all-ins further while at the same time you create the same trade off Terran has when 'scouting' with scans. Info vs economy.
#7 If you reduce EMP and snipe range, then you have to remove feedback from HT. It's the stronger and cheaper spell and if it has a longer range protoss will always win the caster war unless surprised. Or you have to make it that ghost cloak is limited to 15 seconds (for 50 energy) but cannot be detected by observers. If you remove ghosts from the equation, Terran gets rolled in every endgame fight.
#8 You realize, that gateway without upgrades > barracks without upgrades? Early battles between gateway and barracks with just concussive are even. Yes, concussive makes retreats much more costly - but so does forcefield. Terran barracks units only start trashing gateway units once they have stim AND medivacs or they have just one of those but a great engagement where forcefields are not enough. By removing or significantly delaying concussive increase the time where terran is condemned to be turtled in his base. This pushes terran to more 1 base crap. In the end, concussive fullfills a similar role as forcefields.
Bottom line: Besides the potency of one-base-all-ins and maybe EMP, TvP is a good matchup balancewise. If scouting is the problem against the 1/1/1 then have the observer be built from the nexus after gateway with 120 seconds build time. For the EMP problem I would reintroduce the Kaydarin Amulet, but it offers protection against spells, cutting the energy dmg of EMP down to 25, the feedback dmg in half, reduces fungal duration to 2 seconds and gives immunity to neural parasite. That would mean that ghosts could EMP, but had to then manually snipe the templars.
Complaint Problem: Marines. No real counter against them. They counter everything. They are effective all throughout the game, and the become too strong late game vs anything Solution: Slow down medivac heal rate, decrease marine damage Side Effects: Better and more balanced SC2 game
On October 07 2011 20:44 xxSuP4hFLyxx wrote: Complaint Problem: Marines. No real counter against them. They counter everything. They are effective all throughout the game, and the become too strong late game vs anything Solution: Slow down medivac heal rate, decrease marine damage Side Effects: Better and more balanced SC2 game
EPT
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