EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jyt3M.png)
Here is the replay
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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 140
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
Here is the replay | ||
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Big G
Italy835 Posts
On October 09 2011 16:33 Reborn8u wrote: Just played an interesting game involving a variation of the 111. I think it really shows that there is a serious problem. What do you think? You lost your observer during the engagement (against 4-5 cloaked banshees) and half of your stalkers were out of range (you probably made A-click and nothing more). I mean, Marine Raven and Banshees are a powerful combination (PDD, snipe the observer, profit) but with careful micro you should be able to win the fight. Apart from that, you were in a very comfortable situation macro-wise given the 15 Nexus, which is a blind counter to 111 and other allins... the serious problems are that the opponent can easily choose to punish that fast expand with a 2-rax or similar, and that you can't know in advance which composition he's going to use. (In that specific situation I think you absolutely need a Stargate if you don't open with a 15 nexus or 1 gate expo) | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
with like 2 levels. lvl 0 (no research needed) = 50 shield/energy removal lvl 1 = 75 shield/energy removal lvl 2 = 100 shield/energy removal that way the other races aren't countered immediately the moment ghosts are on the field, and terran won't be able to emp everything carelessly. instead of upgrading the damage value instead it could be played with the range of the spell like each upgrades increases the range until lvl2 beeing the standard range it has now. the research shouldn't be even expensive just alittle bit more time consuming than planting a ghost academy to counter way longer and ressource intensive techtrees (HT,Infestor) | ||
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PeggyHill
1494 Posts
On October 09 2011 18:53 freetgy wrote: imho EMP should be a researchable spell. with like 2 levels. lvl 0 (no research needed) = 50 shield/energy removal lvl 1 = 75 shield/energy removal lvl 2 = 100 shield/energy removal that way the other races aren't countered immediately the moment ghosts are on the field, and terran won't be able to emp everything carelessly. instead of upgrading the damage value instead it could be played with the range of the spell like each upgrades increases the range until lvl2 beeing the standard range it has now. the research shouldn't be even expensive just alittle bit more time consuming than planting a ghost academy to counter way longer and ressource intensive techtrees (HT,Infestor) I think something has to be moved onto the raven. Ie energy removal on ghost, shield damage on raven etc I miss the days of flying casters, arbiters & science vessels etc. Much more interesting battles between flying casters than ground. | ||
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Big G
Italy835 Posts
Then I would like to see a minor change to Psi Storm... it should be able to reveal cloaked units for a couple seconds like its Terran and Zerg counterparts. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
Problem 1: The 1-1-1. Haven't seen it much recently, but I'm still convinced it is too good. If executed decently it can be near unstoppable on certain maps. Not only is the build itself too good, but if Protoss decides to counter it (through 1Gate Expand or 16Nexus or 1gate Stargate), the build is open to a 2rax or similar early pressure, turning the game into a coin-flip somewhat. Problem 2: Ghosts. More specifically, EMP. While Snipe is good, it doesn't break the game in my eyes to nearly the same extent as EMP. Removing 100 shields and all energy from casters at an effective 12 range just seems so obviously bad for the game, especially with there being no obvious counter to the unit. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Just because the archon toilet happens and works in 1 out of 1000 pro-level games, doesn't make it OP. I really don't understand why you are ranting so much about the archon toilet, it basically never happens. You probably just complain because thats all your good for. It just happened in the IPL with Kiwikaki vs Stephano. With 3 archons, a mothership, and a negligible amount of stalkers, he killed off over 10 Broodlords with an archon toilet. Just because it doesn't happen much, doesn't mean it isn't OP. And Kiwikaki started making archons specifically when he wasn't mining because he knew it was his only chance. It's pretty obvious it's OP. | ||
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
Solution: Reduce MULE cost to 25 energy. Half the duration of a MULE. Side Effects: Actually this is a slight buff for Terran players income-wise, if their macro-skills are good. After 25 energy then can already collect half of the minerals a current MULE would gather. 75 energy means a scan and a "half-MULE". | ||
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Shizel
Canada23 Posts
Solution: Mules/Scans run on a cooldown for each Orbital Command and that cooldown is the same as the amount of time it takes an orbital to reach 50 energy. This prevents Terran from saving up/forgetting to mule and then having a huge income boost and increases the consequences from choosing between a scan and a mule. Side Effects: Terran will have to develop more of a consistent muling/scan rhythm like Zerg already do and if they mess up the rhythm they will be increasingly falling behind. Saving scans will also mean delaying the recharge rate on more scans/mules and have more of a consequence forcing Terran to put more thought into their scans instead of just scanning on a whim. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
On October 10 2011 04:31 Shizel wrote: Problem: Terran Macro Mechanics are too forgiving, and game changing. Solution: Mules/Scans run on a cooldown for each Orbital Command and that cooldown is the same as the amount of time it takes an orbital to reach 50 energy. This prevents Terran from saving up/forgetting to mule and then having a huge income boost and increases the consequences from choosing between a scan and a mule. Side Effects: Terran will have to develop more of a consistent muling/scan rhythm like Zerg already do and if they mess up the rhythm they will be increasingly falling behind. Saving scans will also mean delaying the recharge rate on more scans/mules and have more of a consequence forcing Terran to put more thought into their scans instead of just scanning on a whim. I like this solution but it's been mentioned so many times and yet never implemented. It's not going to happen. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Problem: Difference in macro mechanic demands. Besides MULES and Chronoboost being forgiving while injects are not, there is another imbalance: MULES cost 50 energy. This means a Terran player only has to cast half the time compared to P and Z players as chrono and inject are 25 energy. Solution: Reduce MULE cost to 25 energy. Half the duration of a MULE. Side Effects: Actually this is a slight buff for Terran players income-wise, if their macro-skills are good. After 25 energy then can already collect half of the minerals a current MULE would gather. 75 energy means a scan and a "half-MULE". This sounds like a huge buff. Why would you buff a race if everyone agrees they are balance, if not OP. It sounds like you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I get that at the lower levels, 'forgiveness' may suck to fight against, but there are so many factors at the Midmasters and lower levels of play that a MULE isn't really that important. You could've beat him if you kept your money low and just made 20 spines with your 20k banked, or made more than 30 drones. I get it, it's annoying to hear Masters+ players say "work on macro" but it's kind of true. At the lower levels of play, I can assure you, the opponent throwing down 10 MULEs at once is not the reason you lost, at all. You can play without chronoboost, you can play without MULEs past early game, and although Zerg can't get past platinum without decent larva inject macro, it's a hard race for a reason. I know, it sucks, sometimes it's 'too' hard, but I can assure you once you get into Masters, anyone who forgets to call down MULEs and then spams 6 MULEs at once, is going to be behind, not caught up. At the Masters+ level of play, or I'd say "normal' play since people are executing basic gameplay, forgiveness in a race no longer matters. Sure, it's annoying Protoss can back into a game by sitting behind 3 sentries and a wall-off against a 6 base Zerg and turtling up a deathball, or Terran can still be in the game after losing all their workers using MULEs they stacked up, or Zerg can make 40 drones at once in the end-game after a nuke landed, but if Terran had been keeping up with MULEs, he would've won. With proper play, the Protoss will die anyways. And the Zerg would've overrun you and killed you if he didn't have to remake drones. So don't worry about forgiveness in a race, because it doesn't really matter. Sure, it can be annoying, but it doesn't translate to game results or balance once you get to Diamond+. Problem: Terran Macro Mechanics are too forgiving, and game changing. Solution: Mules/Scans run on a cooldown for each Orbital Command and that cooldown is the same as the amount of time it takes an orbital to reach 50 energy. This prevents Terran from saving up/forgetting to mule and then having a huge income boost and increases the consequences from choosing between a scan and a mule. Side Effects: Terran will have to develop more of a consistent muling/scan rhythm like Zerg already do and if they mess up the rhythm they will be increasingly falling behind. Saving scans will also mean delaying the recharge rate on more scans/mules and have more of a consequence forcing Terran to put more thought into their scans instead of just scanning on a whim. As I said above, yea, it sucks losing to players 'worse than you'. I mean it's going to keep happening for a long time, until HOTS or LOTV, or maybe never. But this kind of cooldown, or the suggestion I already addressed, won't change balance at all. I guess it's nice, it only makes Terran require more skill, any change like that is cool, but it won't affect balance. Terran is already an extremely fragile race, and I don't think removing forgiving mechanics to a race that actually NEEDS to utilize micro is a good idea. It's not like Zerg or Protoss, as much as Terran, is FORCED to use micro, so if their macro has some forgiveness built in, it's not bad. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On October 10 2011 03:24 Belial88 wrote: It just happened in the IPL with Kiwikaki vs Stephano. With 3 archons, a mothership, and a negligible amount of stalkers, he killed off over 10 Broodlords with an archon toilet. Just because it doesn't happen much, doesn't mean it isn't OP. And Kiwikaki started making archons specifically when he wasn't mining because he knew it was his only chance. It's pretty obvious it's OP. Protoss has no real answer to infestor/brood lord aside from archon toileting. What do you propose? Please don't say "spread void rays." | ||
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Anarion55
United States72 Posts
On October 10 2011 07:39 Shiori wrote: Protoss has no real answer to infestor/brood lord aside from archon toileting. What do you propose? Please don't say "spread void rays." That unit composition is extremely slow and it falls apart if it doesn't stick together. How about two warp prisms of zealots flying around hitting zerg bases and tech structures? Another possibility, since we're talking about lategame, would be to use a mothership for defensive recalls. Place a mothership over one of your bases. Take a ton of blink stalkers, blink in and snipe as many broodlords as possible, then recall the whole army to your base once the fungals have started eating into hp. If you have enough time to let shields regen this could hugely eat into the zerg army. I have no idea if either of those will work, but I'll try them in the next long games I play and see. | ||
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tMomiji
United States1115 Posts
Problem: Colossi seem to have very little health, completely melting under enemy fire... Solution: Either give Colossi more health or maybe a set-damage ability like Immortals have... Side Effects: I am not sure. I'm not high level enough to predict this. Problem: Carriers have been rendered essentially useless by their long, long build time... Solution: Reduce the build time of Carriers slightly, and make them spawn with interceptors. Maybe reduce gas cost a tiny bit too, down from 225 to 200? Side Effects: Carriers might become viable, giving the Protoss more air-play options? That seems fair to me... I think that would help the Protoss out at least somewhat. What do the rest of you think? o.o (The Carriers suggestion might provide an answer to the question above me about dealing with infestors and brood lords.) | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On October 10 2011 07:54 Anarion55 wrote: That unit composition is extremely slow and it falls apart if it doesn't stick together. How about two warp prisms of zealots flying around hitting zerg bases and tech structures? Another possibility, since we're talking about lategame, would be to use a mothership for defensive recalls. Place a mothership over one of your bases. Take a ton of blink stalkers, blink in and snipe as many broodlords as possible, then recall the whole army to your base once the fungals have started eating into hp. If you have enough time to let shields regen this could hugely eat into the zerg army. I have no idea if either of those will work, but I'll try them in the next long games I play and see. the same sort of varied, harassment play beats mothership, which is comparable in speed to a brood lord. just saying. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On October 10 2011 07:39 Shiori wrote: Protoss has no real answer to infestor/brood lord aside from archon toileting. What do you propose? Please don't say "spread void rays." Blizzard already tried patching archon toileting as they said it was not intended. Kiwikaki did just fine against the broodlords with void rays and stalkers for most of the game. The game was extremely close all game long until Stephano killed 40+ workers in the end with drops they didn't show, and his recall was great but he lost too much army in a few of them just forcing cancels against Stephano who had a huge bank and 3+ other running bases. And then, another answer could be that maybe Protoss shouldn't let Zerg reach that point. You know, something that Protoss told Zerg for a long time? Of course that would be a stupid thing to say, just like 'spread void rays' would be. Another thing you could also say, is that maybe there is no way for Protoss to stop BL/Infestor (much like Zerg has no answer for the Protoss deathball) but that doesn't justify an OP ability. Fix archon toilet, and end that problem. If BL/Infestor is a problem, that deserves it's own nerf. But you don't fix a problem by creating another one. I think that would help the Protoss out at least somewhat. What do the rest of you think? o.o Protoss is struggling against Terran, but not against Zerg. I don't know why people are so insistent on this, when ladder stats show that Protoss is favored on every level except GM KR, in which case Nestea and Losira fuck shit up, and it's only 47% vs 53 PvZ, which is acceptable. As for tournaments, Protoss is fine. As for the GSL, it's an extremely small sample size that has skewed results, such as a few Code S players losing to 6 pool or letting 30 lings run into their base twice in a game and making huge blunders. You have Anypro, Hongun, and MC all making huge, bronze level blunders and I'm sure they know they fucked up in games they shouldn't have lost in. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On October 10 2011 07:39 Shiori wrote: Protoss has no real answer to infestor/brood lord aside from archon toileting. What do you propose? Please don't say "spread void rays." Er. Why not? Why can't you spread void rays? Is that you don't see the infestors coming? Maybe more observers or observer speed? I actually thought HT/Void ray would make a lot of sense against the composition. Hell if they make too many broodlords (which zergs tend to do), then carriers might even work. Or you can circumvent the map and harass like crazy which seems to be the solution that most pros seem to be trying these days. I don't really know why we're arguing though. Protoss and Zerg should be uniting against the disgusting monstrosity that is the Terran. Xel 'Naga altered races FTW!!! | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
Complaint: No protoss in GSL, no protoss in IPL How to fix it and why this needs to be done: Starcraft consisting of 2 races just doesn't feel right. Right now we need to re-think strategies and let this new patch settle. I'm worried because there is a possibility that there's only going to be 2 protosses in GSL next season. Seeing how the new patch changed things won't work if we're basing it off only HuK and Sangho's games. Worst case scenario is they lose, and we're stuck in hole because two players sucking does not justify a balance patch. The opposite scenario, the Code A'ers with potential rise up and show us new strategies that validates protoss as a competitive race again. Best case scenario? Among them we discover our own sAviOr. If I am to predict the future; a lot more nexus first (already happening), a lot more phoenix+zealot split attacks against zerg, better control (double/triple phoenix groups with a couple warp prisms), | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On October 10 2011 08:01 OmiDeLta wrote: Hello...I'm new around the balance discussion and maybe as a lower-league player I shouldn't be talking about this, but, I'll take the risk. I always thought that players of certain races only saw the weakness within their own race and thereby thought the game was pretty evenly balanced, but looking around more and more, I see more and more Protoss struggling badly. I think I might have a few suggestions...let's see what you think? Problem: Colossi seem to have very little health, completely melting under enemy fire... Solution: Either give Colossi more health or maybe a set-damage ability like Immortals have... Side Effects: I am not sure. I'm not high level enough to predict this. Problem: Carriers have been rendered essentially useless by their long, long build time... Solution: Reduce the build time of Carriers slightly, and make them spawn with interceptors. Maybe reduce gas cost a tiny bit too, down from 225 to 200? Side Effects: Carriers might become viable, giving the Protoss more air-play options? That seems fair to me... I think that would help the Protoss out at least somewhat. What do the rest of you think? o.o (The Carriers suggestion might provide an answer to the question above me about dealing with infestors and brood lords.) You should protect your colossi better. They are in no way of "very little" health. There are reasons why Protoss is dying to Terran at the moment but Colossus is probably not the most prominent reason. Carriers should be totally redesigned. As of now they are air colossus that also hits air as well as ground. And they are a boring a-move unit. | ||
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