On October 07 2011 20:44 xxSuP4hFLyxx wrote: Complaint Problem: Marines. No real counter against them. They counter everything. They are effective all throughout the game, and the become too strong late game vs anything Solution: Slow down medivac heal rate, decrease marine damage Side Effects: Better and more balanced SC2 game
every unit counters marines....that aren't micro'd so blame the players not the marines
On October 07 2011 12:16 Belial88 wrote: I'm calling it OP because it's OP. There are plenty of pro level games where it's occurred, I believe someone made a popular reddit post on the subject where they showed various games of archon toilet still occuring, the most recent example happened to Destiny but it's happened to quite a few others recently too. I believe a caster named Kommissar made a bunch of videos talking about archon toilets still going on as well:
Blizzard DID 'deal' with this accordingly, but they actually didn't fix it at all. In fact, it made it worse if anything for Zerg because it just made it so banelings all instantly die when coming out of a vortex if enemy units are in it, but the enemy units receive no damage.
I'm not even talking about other mothership strategies. Why do you keep talking about stuff that I'm not even talking about? What the fuck.
told for various struggles they have (Think of the Toss domination a while back where everyone was claiming Protoss was broken because of crazy timing attacks, or the 2rax marine/scv all-in back 10 months ago against zerg).
You mean the same 2 rax all-in that was patched with bunker build times and rax build times, and the same 2 rax all-in that forced Blizzard to scrap all the short maps like Steppes of War? You mean the same Toss domination that occurred until Blizz buffed FG because there was nothing Zerg could do against it? Cool
That's kind of like how Blizz patched archon toilet because they said it was fucking broken as shit, except the patch didn't change anything.
All I meant to do was make a sarcastic comment on how Protoss were told for months by zergs (not you I'm guessing but many other zergs) to just spread things out and it wasn't a problem with fungal but you took it waaaaay out of proportion. Perhaps you should maybe read a post more than once and think about what was being said, and the tone of the post before immediately responding with aggression. It's basic forum etiquette.
So the only reason your in this thread is to troll. Awesome. Thanks for contributing. Maybe you should like, not post 'sarcastic' troll comments that don't do anything to contribute to the conversation. If all you are going to do is flame then go somewhere else. It's basic forum etiquette around here, you know, to not fucking troll.
At bold part....pot calling the kettle black? (Even though he was hardly serious and you are seriously serious)
Also, I think you may be waaaaaay off the mark here. It seems to be that archon toilet (or specifically Vortex) only works on banelings because of the way that banelings behave, NOT because vortex is broken.
Also, you are totally whining here for no apparent reason. "Toss Domination" ending was more of a meta game shift than anything. Infestors were good before....no one was using them, and the snare was even LONGER back then. Also, all of these 6-7-8 gate timing pushes were figured out by the time infestors got the buff.
just a correction: yes, infestors were good before the patch yes, noone was using them yes, the fungal growth duration was longer before
but the fungal duration decrease was actually a fungal buff since it essentially doubled the dps of the spell, which means it could actually kill stuff, so arguing that the duration decrease supposedly is a bad thing is wrong, the fungal change made people more inclined to use infestors, you seem to be claiming the opposite.
or I just misunderstood.
some numbers on dps evolution: original dps = X after buff = 2X after the recent nerf = 2X * 5/6 = 10X/6 ≈ 1.6667X
so bringing up the recent nerf is useless, the total dps is still 66% greater than it was originally.
(and assuming you produce enough infestors to carpet-fungal the enemy army during the battle the duration is not a problem (if 3 fungals are enough to cover most of the enemy army, and the battle goes on for 20 seconds, you need 15 fungal growths which is 8 infestors worth of fungals, note: 20 seconds is a very long time for a battle, and deathballs can generally be completely covered by 3 fungals. 8 infestors = 1200 gas which is quite easy to get if you save up for it))
in my opinion as a zerg infestors are way OP, but the rest of zerg in general is UP so they need a really strong mid-game unit, thus balanced.
Oh I know that the speed in which Fungal does damage was a total buff, but there are a lot of people that complain about the ROOTING of the spell which I feel is much more annoying than the damage. So I guess you misunderstood me, but you bring up a valid point.
you know that protoss has its own variation of fungal? it is called forcefield and requires a few more clicks and doesn't do direct damage. However, it prevents the zerg units from attacking. Roaches get split/forcefielded away/ bugged into not firing at all even when in range and lings will never reach their target. Depending on the zerg follow up (and if zerg isn't already dead by an early 2 base push), you get immortals + obs vs burrow roaches, stalker + blink or air units vs baneling drops, colossus and stalker vs roach/hydra. You can block ramps for an eternity to split armies/kill bases for free, you can chew off a portion of your opponents army, then proceed to forcefield again to get the next portion etc. Believe me, zerg player know how it is like to get fungaled to death and not being able to do anything because the same thing happens with forcefields. Often it just comes down to how good protoss is at wall hugging and wall creating -.-
On October 07 2011 12:16 Belial88 wrote: That's kind of like how Blizz patched archon toilet because they said it was fucking broken as shit, except the patch didn't change anything.
Archon toilet now only works in a few situations. Broodlords are the ideal target for a vortex, because they bunch up a lot when engaging the archons below AND they are very slow AND the attack rate is very slow as well (archons take 20 dmg from the initial attack, then their splash attack kills the broodlord and the broodling at the same time). Ground units can't stack that way with the 1.5" immunity (even the slowest, HT), and other air units are fast enough to spread and minimize the splash. They can stack a bit if surrounded by targets (mothership-voidrays-archons vs corruptors-broodlords, putting everything in the vortex), but the splash damage is nothing compared to what happened pre-patch.
The vortex is designed to be just a powerful spell to split the enemy army. It can be avoided with careful micro (in the same way Protoss players should not stack the air units on top of the ground ones to minimize fungal damage); putting ALL your army in the vortex when archons/HT/colossi are on the field (then complaining on this forum :D) it is not the correct response.
On October 07 2011 21:31 Cirqueenflex wrote: you know that protoss has its own variation of fungal? it is called forcefield and requires a few more clicks and doesn't do direct damage. However, it prevents the zerg units from attacking. Roaches get split/forcefielded away/ bugged into not firing at all even when in range and lings will never reach their target. Depending on the zerg follow up (and if zerg isn't already dead by an early 2 base push), you get immortals + obs vs burrow roaches, stalker + blink or air units vs baneling drops, colossus and stalker vs roach/hydra. You can block ramps for an eternity to split armies/kill bases for free, you can chew off a portion of your opponents army, then proceed to forcefield again to get the next portion etc. Believe me, zerg player know how it is like to get fungaled to death and not being able to do anything because the same thing happens with forcefields. Often it just comes down to how good protoss is at wall hugging and wall creating -.-
I agree completely, haven't zerg been complaining about FF's for over a year? why don't they get nerfed at all? Protoss has powers man...they really do. I've seen too much ghost discussion...it's insane, don't people realize terran players can't win games without ghosts? It's literally impossible especially if the protoss goes zealot/archon/sentry or even a regular deathball.
Idk...maybe someday blizzard will listen to zerg or terran...but we will see
Hey wow! An archon toilet took out a whole 4 broodlords and then the mothership went down right after. 700/600 and 220 seconds to take out 1200/1000 worth of brood lords.
Ghosts in TvP - Blizzard aren't going to remove them, heck Protoss aren't even asking for that. Just something which lets Toss players counter the ghost without requiring a much higher level of skill.
Archon Toilet - Yeah, the mothership is useful. How about that. The 1.5 second invincibility means units that aren't completely slow as hell (i.e. everything not a broodlord) can actually split out of the vortex well enough.
On October 08 2011 10:49 Resistentialism wrote: Hey wow! An archon toilet took out a whole 4 broodlords and then the mothership went down right after. 700/600 and 220 seconds to take out 1200/1000 worth of brood lords.
You don't "lose" anything doing the actual toilet, why you'd be sarcastic about it doesn't make any sense.
An idea sparked in my head about the Terran mules and the Terran's macro ability in general.
What do you guys think about the possibility of having the orbital command reworked into this:
Orbital Reactor At a cost of 50 energy, the Terran player now has the ability to produce 2 SCV's at a time for a period of 90 seconds.
or
Permanent ability to produce 2 SCV's at a time. Energy cost of Scanner Sweep increased to 75 energy.
The reason I like this idea (or something along the lines of this) is that it forces Terrans to make workers beyond 60, thus using up their supply and having smaller max army size. It just doesn't sit well with me that a protoss or zerg would make 70+ workers in a long game while a Terran doesn't. The 20-30 worker difference results in a smaller army size in comparison.
This also eliminates the mass mule drop at a gold base that almost instantly brings a Terran back into a game they were far behind in.
On October 07 2011 20:44 xxSuP4hFLyxx wrote: Complaint Problem: Marines. No real counter against them. They counter everything. They are effective all throughout the game, and the become too strong late game vs anything Solution: Slow down medivac heal rate, decrease marine damage Side Effects: Better and more balanced SC2 game
That is so. To be more specific - I consider stim the source of the problem so I would rather suggest decrease in stim duration or increase in health penalty to make stim usage more skill dependant and overstimming more relevant issue.
On October 07 2011 20:44 xxSuP4hFLyxx wrote: Complaint Problem: Marines. No real counter against them. They counter everything. They are effective all throughout the game, and the become too strong late game vs anything Solution: Slow down medivac heal rate, decrease marine damage Side Effects: Better and more balanced SC2 game
That is so. To be more specific - I consider stim the source of the problem so I would rather suggest decrease in stim duration or increase in health penalty to make stim usage more skill dependant and overstimming more relevant issue.
If I had to nerf Bio, I would reduce Marine Attack speed by 10% or maybe even 15%, .946/.989 up fro .86 and then reduced marauder damage to 10 (+8 armored) down from 10(+10 armored).
And I'm still on the opinion that the source of the problem is cloak banshee. I don't think marines would've been such of an issue if protoss wasn't forced to go robo every game against T. Protoss can deal with low number of marines with early upgrades or charge, but both die to cloak, so P has no choice but to go robo, and +1 immortal doesn't help at all. My suggestion is delaying the cloak research somehow.
On October 07 2011 12:16 Belial88 wrote: I'm calling it OP because it's OP. There are plenty of pro level games where it's occurred, I believe someone made a popular reddit post on the subject where they showed various games of archon toilet still occuring, the most recent example happened to Destiny but it's happened to quite a few others recently too. I believe a caster named Kommissar made a bunch of videos talking about archon toilets still going on as well:
Blizzard DID 'deal' with this accordingly, but they actually didn't fix it at all. In fact, it made it worse if anything for Zerg because it just made it so banelings all instantly die when coming out of a vortex if enemy units are in it, but the enemy units receive no damage.
I'm not even talking about other mothership strategies. Why do you keep talking about stuff that I'm not even talking about? What the fuck.
told for various struggles they have (Think of the Toss domination a while back where everyone was claiming Protoss was broken because of crazy timing attacks, or the 2rax marine/scv all-in back 10 months ago against zerg).
You mean the same 2 rax all-in that was patched with bunker build times and rax build times, and the same 2 rax all-in that forced Blizzard to scrap all the short maps like Steppes of War? You mean the same Toss domination that occurred until Blizz buffed FG because there was nothing Zerg could do against it? Cool
That's kind of like how Blizz patched archon toilet because they said it was fucking broken as shit, except the patch didn't change anything.
All I meant to do was make a sarcastic comment on how Protoss were told for months by zergs (not you I'm guessing but many other zergs) to just spread things out and it wasn't a problem with fungal but you took it waaaaay out of proportion. Perhaps you should maybe read a post more than once and think about what was being said, and the tone of the post before immediately responding with aggression. It's basic forum etiquette.
So the only reason your in this thread is to troll. Awesome. Thanks for contributing. Maybe you should like, not post 'sarcastic' troll comments that don't do anything to contribute to the conversation. If all you are going to do is flame then go somewhere else. It's basic forum etiquette around here, you know, to not fucking troll.
You are such a stupid baby. I bet you have been archon toileted maybe once on ladder, and because of that, you think its OP. I know you think you're the best player on the world and that every time you lose, its because something or another is OP, but please, get real. Tell me the last time an archon toilet has happened in a major tournament, because I'm pretty sure its never happened. If its so OP, why doesn't every toss use it?
Its pretty hilarious that you're flaming a guy for posting "sarcastic troll comments", while it seems to me that all of your last paragraph is sarcastic. Hypocrite much?
Uhh... there was an archon toilet in IPL last night. I think it was either the idra or sleep games.
I'm at the point where I believe 1/1/1 is most easily adjusted by the maps, not by changing the stats of the units, you basically want space to flank the push, delay it or to have enough space where it makes sense to pick off reinforcements with more mobile force. It's basically the strongest on maps where there is single optimal path to your enemy without any chance for flanks unless you are ridiculously far ahead from your natural.
XNF, Metal close air, Shattered close air and close spawns on Terminus are probably the most guilty of this. Testbug was also pretty bad.
Problem: Zerg has no way to reduce enemy race energy Solution: add spell that reduces enemy race energy to infestors and remove NP(which has worst range of any caster unit spell) Side effects: More usage of Ghosts HT's and Infestors???
On October 08 2011 11:17 Bayyne wrote: An idea sparked in my head about the Terran mules and the Terran's macro ability in general.
What do you guys think about the possibility of having the orbital command reworked into this:
Orbital Reactor At a cost of 50 energy, the Terran player now has the ability to produce 2 SCV's at a time for a period of 90 seconds.
or
Permanent ability to produce 2 SCV's at a time. Energy cost of Scanner Sweep increased to 75 energy.
The reason I like this idea (or something along the lines of this) is that it forces Terrans to make workers beyond 60, thus using up their supply and having smaller max army size. It just doesn't sit well with me that a protoss or zerg would make 70+ workers in a long game while a Terran doesn't. The 20-30 worker difference results in a smaller army size in comparison.
This also eliminates the mass mule drop at a gold base that almost instantly brings a Terran back into a game they were far behind in.
Thoughts?
I think this would put Terran in a bit of a disavantage, since both Chrono Boost and Spawn Larva do way more than just boosting worker production.
As for permanent 2x SCV, it would take away the point of the macro mechanics, which is to add a level of skill. Remembering to inject and to use CB takes APM and practice. Simply using 2x SCV is too easy.
I think the best thing to do now is to make mules cost 1 supply when they are active.
On October 09 2011 06:00 Joseph123 wrote: And I'm still on the opinion that the source of the problem is cloak banshee. I don't think marines would've been such of an issue if protoss wasn't forced to go robo every game against T. Protoss can deal with low number of marines with early upgrades or charge, but both die to cloak, so P has no choice but to go robo, and +1 immortal doesn't help at all. My suggestion is delaying the cloak research somehow.
I have seen cloaked banshees vs toss in a pro game only once or twice. Cloaked banshees are not the reason toss goes to robo, the reason is that toss needs scouting information. Of course, on lower leagues, cloaked banshees may do damage to protoss players, but once you go pro, cloaked banshees are not a problem.
On October 09 2011 06:00 Joseph123 wrote: And I'm still on the opinion that the source of the problem is cloak banshee. I don't think marines would've been such of an issue if protoss wasn't forced to go robo every game against T. Protoss can deal with low number of marines with early upgrades or charge, but both die to cloak, so P has no choice but to go robo, and +1 immortal doesn't help at all. My suggestion is delaying the cloak research somehow.
I have seen cloaked banshees vs toss in a pro game only once or twice. Cloaked banshees are not the reason toss goes to robo, the reason is that toss needs scouting information. Of course, on lower leagues, cloaked banshees may do damage to protoss players, but once you go pro, cloaked banshees are not a problem.
On October 09 2011 06:00 Joseph123 wrote: And I'm still on the opinion that the source of the problem is cloak banshee. I don't think marines would've been such of an issue if protoss wasn't forced to go robo every game against T. Protoss can deal with low number of marines with early upgrades or charge, but both die to cloak, so P has no choice but to go robo, and +1 immortal doesn't help at all. My suggestion is delaying the cloak research somehow.
I have seen cloaked banshees vs toss in a pro game only once or twice. Cloaked banshees are not the reason toss goes to robo, the reason is that toss needs scouting information. Of course, on lower leagues, cloaked banshees may do damage to protoss players, but once you go pro, cloaked banshees are not a problem.
On October 09 2011 06:00 Joseph123 wrote: And I'm still on the opinion that the source of the problem is cloak banshee. I don't think marines would've been such of an issue if protoss wasn't forced to go robo every game against T. Protoss can deal with low number of marines with early upgrades or charge, but both die to cloak, so P has no choice but to go robo, and +1 immortal doesn't help at all. My suggestion is delaying the cloak research somehow.
I have seen cloaked banshees vs toss in a pro game only once or twice. Cloaked banshees are not the reason toss goes to robo, the reason is that toss needs scouting information. Of course, on lower leagues, cloaked banshees may do damage to protoss players, but once you go pro, cloaked banshees are not a problem.
Cloak banshees are a crucial component to most of the variants of 1-1-1. The problem with the 1-1-1 is how hard it is to distinguish from a 1 rax expand or a 2 rax pressure. Either way, toss is forced to get robo for scouting and 2 observers at least unless they see a command center.
EPT
