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On October 05 2011 08:41 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 23:01 Zanno wrote:On October 04 2011 02:38 NoobSkills wrote:Anyone ever look at balance this way? In broodwar no patches were ever made (from what I see) to change the effects of the units unless it was considered a glitch. http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&articleId=21150Now, in Starcraft Vanilla there was a monetary change to the spawning pool changing the mineral requirement from 150 to 200 because of how effective a zergling rush could be. That change made it so the VERY early game was not imbalanced. this is very wrong, many things were changed + Show Spoiler +--------------------
Balance Changes 1.08
--------------------
TERRAN:
Valkyrie:
- Damage increase to 6 per missile.
- Acceleration and velocity increased slightly.
- Build time decreased.
Science Facility:
- Build time decreased.
- Irradiate research cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
- Yamato Cannon research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Missile Turret:
- Decreased cost to 75 minerals.
Factory:
- Charon Missile Booster research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Dropship:
- Increased speed.
Goliath:
- Increased ground attack range.
Battle Cruiser:
- Build time decreased.
- Supply cost decreased to 6.
PROTOSS:
Dragoon:
- Build time increased.
Scout:
- Decreased cost to 275 minerals, 125 gas.
Carrier:
- Supply cost decreased to 6.
Templar:
- Psi Storm Damage reduced.
Corsair:
- Disruption Web spell duration decreased.
Zealot:
- Shields decreased to 60 and hit points increased to 100.
ZERG:
Queen:
- Decreased build cost to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Ultralisk:
- Supply cost decreased to 4.
Queen's Nest:
- Spawn Broodling cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Hydralisk Den:
- Lurker Aspect cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
- Hydralisk speed upgrade cost increased to 150 minerals, 150 gas.
Spawning Pool:
- Increased build cost to 200 minerals
Sunken Colony:
- Building armor increased to 2.
- Hit points decreased to 300. 1.08 was the final balance patch, then warcraft 3 went into alpha testing and from thereon they only released patches for bugfixes 1.08 came out way after broodwar did Thank you for grabbing that for me. I knew there were some changes especially the spawning pool one. I didn't think there were this many, though, all of them together =/= even one SC2 patch. Also a lot of them seem well thought out and mostly about upgrading weak units, changing spells that didn't matter, and fixing costs of upgrades which was my guess at making certain things viable, not to equal out the races. Even still they changed things about the game ONE time, to make more units useful, 3 years after it release, and NOT as a knee jerk reaction to people whining on Blizzard's forums. Thank you again for posting that though. I find the information interesting.
So now that you have been proven wrong, you proceed to devalue the information provided? A better route it to admit that you were incorrect things were changed. If you want a real history, look up Starcraft in 7 minutes on youtube.
Blizzard is slowly making changes to the game and there will be more patches than in Broodwar, that's just the way it is going to be. The game was massively imbalanced at launch. Does anyone remember reaper rushes against zerg?
And the changes they have made have been subtle. A bit more range here, 5 second there, fixing AI on a unit so it hits more often. This game isn't broodwar and people who expected it to be balanced right out the gate are unreasonable.
Also, the idea that Blizzard makes patches based on forums posts is silly. They have publicly shown all the tools they use to find what is imbalanced. If they reacted to forum whining, the marauder would have been removed in the first month.
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Did NoobSkills really just call Psi Storm a spell that didn't matter in Broodwar? Ignoring for a moment how important Psi Storm itself is, that damage reduction reduced Storm damage from killing Lurkers and Tanks in one storm to taking one storm and a little more damage, which massively changed the balance between Protoss who went Templar with a late Robo and Zerg who went fast Lurker.
Just for reference, there was a massive list of balance changes to existing units in patch 1.04, and a small list of changes in patch 1.05.
Skimming the notes, there were also changes made in patch 1.02 (hatchery cost) and patch 1.03 (changed photon cannon damage from explosive to normal, doubling its damage against marines, mutalisks, zerglings, and other small units).
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On October 05 2011 08:35 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 00:54 QTIP. wrote:From the OP of this thread in the IEM thread. On October 04 2011 15:34 Techno wrote:
Hasuu is playing like a pussy, he keeps cowarding away from engagements and getting destroyed because hes not dictating the engagements.
Just 1a like a good protoss.
User was temp banned for this post. So much for having the right mindset for constructive balance discussion. Pathetic. quit trashing on him. he was probably angry and raged-filled and that thread has nothing to do with this thread. he made a good attempt at a balance thread and you should get off his nuts.
If you write a "designated balance discussion thread" demanding that everyone maintain good manners, present reasonable arguments, and avoid excessive hyperbole + flamebait, then you should probably do the same. This is not the first time he has made such comments and he has made them in this thread as well.
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Does anyone else here think that the ghost is incredibly strong in decent numbers in the hands of a competent player? I for one don't know why every terran isn't using ghosts every game seeing as how they are so strong.
For example in TvZ. Well microed ghosts can do well/counter three of zergs late game units
- Brood lords with snipe. It's crazy how fast broodlords melt to snipe, and they are so bloody expensive and time consuming. Snipe only costs 25, also the range is 10
- Infestors with EMP and snipe. This is especially problematic seeing as how it is difficult not to clump your infestors when moving them around and always having to spread them because of the threat of cloaked ghosts EMP'ing your infestors. Also with the infestor nerf, it is even harder to neural parasite a ghost and EMP the ghosts back
- Ultralisks with snipe. Especially with a tank line and some units to back you up its just a massacre.
I've been watching tons of games and looking out for ghost play and seeing how some of the pro's are dealing with them, but can't find any reliable strategy to deal with them effectively. I'm hesitant to say they are quite OP even though I'm frustrated by ghost play, but I want to know how people are dealing with them. I'm open to suggestions on how to deal with them, perhaps we zergs just need more brainstorming and exposure to more terran ghost play before coming up with viable strategies?
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On October 05 2011 15:12 Chinesewonder wrote:
For example in TvZ. Well microed ghosts can do well/counter three of zergs late game units
- Brood lords with snipe. It's crazy how fast broodlords melt to snipe, and they are so bloody expensive and time consuming. Snipe only costs 25, also the range is 10
- Infestors with EMP and snipe. This is especially problematic seeing as how it is difficult not to clump your infestors when moving them around and always having to spread them because of the threat of cloaked ghosts EMP'ing your infestors. Also with the infestor nerf, it is even harder to neural parasite a ghost and EMP the ghosts back
- Ultralisks with snipe. Especially with a tank line and some units to back you up its just a massacre.
I think due to the fact that Zerg players can stockpile a ton of larva when they're maxed and switch in under 1 minute from broodlords too massive amounts of ultralisks terran needs a unit which is at least decent against both t3 compositions.
Without a Unit which is okay against both units such a situation would be like auto lose which isn't that fair either. I think the Ghost is a bit too good vs casters but I don't get why so many people complain about Snipe in TvZ.
I think emp decrease emp range by 1 or 2 and buff the high templar speed to 2 or the same speed as ghosts whould be a possible fix for the TvP carpet emp problem.
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On October 05 2011 15:12 Chinesewonder wrote:
Does anyone else here think that the ghost is incredibly strong in decent numbers in the hands of a competent player? I for one don't know why every terran isn't using ghosts every game seeing as how they are so strong.
For example in TvZ. Well microed ghosts can do well/counter three of zergs late game units
- Brood lords with snipe. It's crazy how fast broodlords melt to snipe, and they are so bloody expensive and time consuming. Snipe only costs 25, also the range is 10
- Infestors with EMP and snipe. This is especially problematic seeing as how it is difficult not to clump your infestors when moving them around and always having to spread them because of the threat of cloaked ghosts EMP'ing your infestors. Also with the infestor nerf, it is even harder to neural parasite a ghost and EMP the ghosts back
- Ultralisks with snipe. Especially with a tank line and some units to back you up its just a massacre.
I've been watching tons of games and looking out for ghost play and seeing how some of the pro's are dealing with them, but can't find any reliable strategy to deal with them effectively. I'm hesitant to say they are quite OP even though I'm frustrated by ghost play, but I want to know how people are dealing with them. I'm open to suggestions on how to deal with them, perhaps we zergs just need more brainstorming and exposure to more terran ghost play before coming up with viable strategies?
mass zergling/infestor/ultralisk does quite well vs ... ... ... any ground army?
you want to snipe my zerglings? go ahead, I HAVE MORE!
you want to snipe my ultras? go ahead, YOU'LL GET CHEWED ON BY ZERGLINGS!
try to emp/snipe my infestors? dude, my damage is in ultralisks and zerglings, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY EMPING MY INFESTORS?
you are defended by sieged tanks? what am I doing there? why aren't I dropping your expansions with 20 3/3cracklings in each? and if I were, WHAT WOULD YOU DO ABOUT IT?
try to kite my ultra-ling army? TO BAD ITS ME, FUNGAL GROWTH!
honestly, the only composition I can imagine this composition would have problems with would be something like ghost (for emp, which renders me unable to fungal growth, thus letting the terran kite) maruader (to kill off ultras efficiently) and something vs lings, such as hellions or marines.
as for protoss, that would be... HT/stalker/colossus perhaps? emphasis on the necessity of HT to, again, get rid of infestors. and having the rest of the army kite. if the HT "waste" their energy on storms their army will inevitably get slaughtered.
tank compositons need a ridicolous positioning advantage to be efficient since ultras are uber effective vs everything stationary (notice that fungaled units are stationary, much the same way sieged tanks are stationary)
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On October 05 2011 11:54 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 08:35 shawster wrote:On October 05 2011 00:54 QTIP. wrote:From the OP of this thread in the IEM thread. On October 04 2011 15:34 Techno wrote:
Hasuu is playing like a pussy, he keeps cowarding away from engagements and getting destroyed because hes not dictating the engagements.
Just 1a like a good protoss.
User was temp banned for this post. So much for having the right mindset for constructive balance discussion. Pathetic. quit trashing on him. he was probably angry and raged-filled and that thread has nothing to do with this thread. he made a good attempt at a balance thread and you should get off his nuts. If you write a "designated balance discussion thread" demanding that everyone maintain good manners, present reasonable arguments, and avoid excessive hyperbole + flamebait, then you should probably do the same. This is not the first time he has made such comments and he has made them in this thread as well.
Stop trying to derail the thread. He apologized for his behavior in the other thread and is making an honest attempt to improve his posting.
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On October 05 2011 16:39 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 15:12 Chinesewonder wrote:
Does anyone else here think that the ghost is incredibly strong in decent numbers in the hands of a competent player? I for one don't know why every terran isn't using ghosts every game seeing as how they are so strong.
For example in TvZ. Well microed ghosts can do well/counter three of zergs late game units
- Brood lords with snipe. It's crazy how fast broodlords melt to snipe, and they are so bloody expensive and time consuming. Snipe only costs 25, also the range is 10
- Infestors with EMP and snipe. This is especially problematic seeing as how it is difficult not to clump your infestors when moving them around and always having to spread them because of the threat of cloaked ghosts EMP'ing your infestors. Also with the infestor nerf, it is even harder to neural parasite a ghost and EMP the ghosts back
- Ultralisks with snipe. Especially with a tank line and some units to back you up its just a massacre.
I've been watching tons of games and looking out for ghost play and seeing how some of the pro's are dealing with them, but can't find any reliable strategy to deal with them effectively. I'm hesitant to say they are quite OP even though I'm frustrated by ghost play, but I want to know how people are dealing with them. I'm open to suggestions on how to deal with them, perhaps we zergs just need more brainstorming and exposure to more terran ghost play before coming up with viable strategies? mass zergling/infestor/ultralisk does quite well vs ... ... ... any ground army? you want to snipe my zerglings? go ahead, I HAVE MORE! you want to snipe my ultras? go ahead, YOU'LL GET CHEWED ON BY ZERGLINGS! try to emp/snipe my infestors? dude, my damage is in ultralisks and zerglings, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY EMPING MY INFESTORS? you are defended by sieged tanks? what am I doing there? why aren't I dropping your expansions with 20 3/3cracklings in each? and if I were, WHAT WOULD YOU DO ABOUT IT? try to kite my ultra-ling army? TO BAD ITS ME, FUNGAL GROWTH! honestly, the only composition I can imagine this composition would have problems with would be something like ghost (for emp, which renders me unable to fungal growth, thus letting the terran kite) maruader (to kill off ultras efficiently) and something vs lings, such as hellions or marines. as for protoss, that would be... HT/stalker/colossus perhaps? emphasis on the necessity of HT to, again, get rid of infestors. and having the rest of the army kite. if the HT "waste" their energy on storms their army will inevitably get slaughtered. tank compositons need a ridicolous positioning advantage to be efficient since ultras are uber effective vs everything stationary (notice that fungaled units are stationary, much the same way sieged tanks are stationary)
I like this guy. I feel like when people are really confident in their play, they should almost feel like their own race is imbalanced–that is, they feel like they can handle anything their opponents throw at them.
Then the ladder matches them with better opponents, and they start facing new challenges the likes of which they've never seen before, and they come to this thread to complain.
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On October 05 2011 16:41 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 11:54 QTIP. wrote:On October 05 2011 08:35 shawster wrote:On October 05 2011 00:54 QTIP. wrote:From the OP of this thread in the IEM thread. On October 04 2011 15:34 Techno wrote:
Hasuu is playing like a pussy, he keeps cowarding away from engagements and getting destroyed because hes not dictating the engagements.
Just 1a like a good protoss.
User was temp banned for this post. So much for having the right mindset for constructive balance discussion. Pathetic. quit trashing on him. he was probably angry and raged-filled and that thread has nothing to do with this thread. he made a good attempt at a balance thread and you should get off his nuts. If you write a "designated balance discussion thread" demanding that everyone maintain good manners, present reasonable arguments, and avoid excessive hyperbole + flamebait, then you should probably do the same. This is not the first time he has made such comments and he has made them in this thread as well. Stop trying to derail the thread. He apologized for his behavior in the other thread and is making an honest attempt to improve his posting.
Well hopefully he does... I'm tired of reading backhand disses' to Protoss players
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They need to get rid of fucking vortex. Completely OP.
Archon toilet still exists and is obnoxious as shit. 6 archons and a mothership instabig any zerg army.
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[B]On October 07 2011 04:37 Belial88 wrote:
They need to get rid of fucking vortex. Completely OP.
Archon toilet still exists and is obnoxious as shit. 6 archons and a mothership instabig any zerg army.
It's fine as is. Don't clump your air units so they don't all get caught in the vortex.
It feels great to say that as Protoss after zergs said the exact same thing for fungal for months.
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On October 05 2011 17:04 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 16:39 Roblin wrote:On October 05 2011 15:12 Chinesewonder wrote:
Does anyone else here think that the ghost is incredibly strong in decent numbers in the hands of a competent player? I for one don't know why every terran isn't using ghosts every game seeing as how they are so strong.
For example in TvZ. Well microed ghosts can do well/counter three of zergs late game units
- Brood lords with snipe. It's crazy how fast broodlords melt to snipe, and they are so bloody expensive and time consuming. Snipe only costs 25, also the range is 10
- Infestors with EMP and snipe. This is especially problematic seeing as how it is difficult not to clump your infestors when moving them around and always having to spread them because of the threat of cloaked ghosts EMP'ing your infestors. Also with the infestor nerf, it is even harder to neural parasite a ghost and EMP the ghosts back
- Ultralisks with snipe. Especially with a tank line and some units to back you up its just a massacre.
I've been watching tons of games and looking out for ghost play and seeing how some of the pro's are dealing with them, but can't find any reliable strategy to deal with them effectively. I'm hesitant to say they are quite OP even though I'm frustrated by ghost play, but I want to know how people are dealing with them. I'm open to suggestions on how to deal with them, perhaps we zergs just need more brainstorming and exposure to more terran ghost play before coming up with viable strategies? mass zergling/infestor/ultralisk does quite well vs ... ... ... any ground army? you want to snipe my zerglings? go ahead, I HAVE MORE! you want to snipe my ultras? go ahead, YOU'LL GET CHEWED ON BY ZERGLINGS! try to emp/snipe my infestors? dude, my damage is in ultralisks and zerglings, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY EMPING MY INFESTORS? you are defended by sieged tanks? what am I doing there? why aren't I dropping your expansions with 20 3/3cracklings in each? and if I were, WHAT WOULD YOU DO ABOUT IT? try to kite my ultra-ling army? TO BAD ITS ME, FUNGAL GROWTH! honestly, the only composition I can imagine this composition would have problems with would be something like ghost (for emp, which renders me unable to fungal growth, thus letting the terran kite) maruader (to kill off ultras efficiently) and something vs lings, such as hellions or marines. as for protoss, that would be... HT/stalker/colossus perhaps? emphasis on the necessity of HT to, again, get rid of infestors. and having the rest of the army kite. if the HT "waste" their energy on storms their army will inevitably get slaughtered. tank compositons need a ridicolous positioning advantage to be efficient since ultras are uber effective vs everything stationary (notice that fungaled units are stationary, much the same way sieged tanks are stationary) I like this guy. I feel like when people are really confident in their play, they should almost feel like their own race is imbalanced–that is, they feel like they can handle anything their opponents throw at them. Then the ladder matches them with better opponents, and they start facing new challenges the likes of which they've never seen before, and they come to this thread to complain.
when reading the first paragraph of this reply I was thinking "awww, thanks" and then I read the second parapraph and was like "wait, what is he getting at?"
for your information, I have advanced several leagues since I started using the strategy I use today (~6 months ago), and for every league I am promoted, I notice a significant increase in skill and strategy diversity each time, and when I do, I don't come here to whine, (I haven't yet at least) instead I find a way to scout the new strategy and prepare for it.
for example: a few months ago I noticed I had serious problems with holding off hellions in the early game, I no longer have such serious issues with hellions, since I get a roach warren the very instant I suspect hellions might be on the way, right now, the thing that causes 70% of my losses in zvt is early hellion aggression straight into banshee, I had no problems with banshees before since my build includes getting 2 evo chambers for upgrades early anyway, so I most always had time to put down several spore crawlers before any of it was a problem, then I just had to hold on until I got some infestors at which time the banshees are forced to head home, however, since I have to make a deviation to defend the hellions efficiently, and then have to make a completely different deviation to defend the banshees, I found myself being far behind the terran in the mid-game, which used to be my strong point. however, recently I have found that if I start producing queens in massive amounts while putting down my roach warren, I will not have to build as many roaches to defend the hellions, thus minimizing the deviation since the queens are useful for other things later, for example holding off banshees and spreading creep, which minimizes the deviation required for banshees, now I am currently working on finding out just how many queens I should get compared to how many roaches, whether to get a overseer or not and similar small details.
in total, I have a slightly greater than 50% winrate, my worst matchup by far is zvz because my most practiced strategy is not applicable vs Z. I also notice that when I lose, I never lost because I couldn't defend, I only ever lose because I defended poorly, and thus, I am confident that if I improve my play, I can beat those that previously beat me.
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Complaint: Ghosts are simply too powerful of a unit for their cost and tech time.
Reasons:
Against Zerg Emp is very powerful against Infestors, Snipe absolutely Destroys late game Zerg Units such as Ultras and Broodlords
Against Protoss in the late game EMP can easily sway a key battle for terran, removing shields, sentry and HT energy makes the Terran's Army a lot more cost effective.
Suggested Change(s)
-Ghost Cost reverted to 150 minerals/150 gas, up from 200 minerals/100 Gas
-Cost of Snipe increased to 35, up from 25
-Ghost EMP has been Replaced with Lockdown which costs 75 Energy, Lockdown will stun a mechanical Unit preventing any actions from it for 12 seconds, lasts 6 seconds against a massive unit.
-High Templar Movement speed increase by .15
-Infestor Health reduced to 85, down from 90
-Hunter Missle Research for the Raven has been replaced with EMP Missile which allows the Raven to Fire an EMP Missile for 75 energy, draining up to 100 Energy and Shields.
Reasoning:
Now these are A LOT of changes that will have a dramatic effect I understand, the Motivation behind this is that EMP itself came too early in the game and was too cheap to attain. EMP being a research for the raven means will see EMP come much later, more around the time when a Protoss player would be getting his high templars with storm. Snipe also got an increase in Energy Cost so that it can't be spammed as often against a Zerg.
In compensation, however, Infestors losing 5 HP means that a ghost can kill it easier with 2 snipes rather than 3 (since the infestor will generate 1hp) and Ghosts with the lockdown ability will be Potent to use against Stalkers, Sentries, Immortals and Colossus, while hopefully not being too potent against key units such as the Colossus (half duration against Massive)
this is me throwing my thoughts out to the community, feel free to bash these ideas 
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On October 07 2011 04:57 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On October 07 2011 04:37 Belial88 wrote:
They need to get rid of fucking vortex. Completely OP.
Archon toilet still exists and is obnoxious as shit. 6 archons and a mothership instabig any zerg army. It's fine as is. Don't clump your air units so they don't all get caught in the vortex. It feels great to say that as Protoss after zergs said the exact same thing for fungal for months.
You are aware that vortex has a diameter/'range' of 5 right? Clumping has nothing to do with it.
Zerg never said anything about not clumping your army against FG. Protoss who feels persecuted feels persecuted ;/
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On October 07 2011 08:39 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 04:57 Ben... wrote:[B]On October 07 2011 04:37 Belial88 wrote:
They need to get rid of fucking vortex. Completely OP.
Archon toilet still exists and is obnoxious as shit. 6 archons and a mothership instabig any zerg army. It's fine as is. Don't clump your air units so they don't all get caught in the vortex. It feels great to say that as Protoss after zergs said the exact same thing for fungal for months. You are aware that vortex has a diameter/'range' of 5 right? Clumping has nothing to do with it. Zerg never said anything about not clumping your army against FG. Protoss who feels persecuted feels persecuted ;/
Yea because ad hominem is such a good way to validate your argument. When toss complained about fungal zergs would say "herp derp you're too used to keeping all your units in a ball and 1aing over our armies, now toss actually has to micro (meaning split) their units!"
And fungal has a diameter of 4, not that much of a difference from vortex, not to mention that fungal is much more accessible than vortex.
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^ So... the reason vortex isn't OP is because some OTHER zerg said you shouldn't clump up your units against an aoe spell caster that is working as intended?
If you want to talk about how OP FG is, go ahead. I don't give a shit. What does this have to do with vortex and archon toilets?
Like because FG is OP, Vortex is therefore not OP? Or because some other zerg said just micro against FG, therefore vortex is not OP? I don't even understand what logic is this.
Thanks. You really make this discussion great. I'm not using any ad hominems. I said persecuted protoss feels persecuted, because he obviously has some pent up rage about other Zergs. Like, great, what do I care? Sure, FG is OP, like, I wasn't even talking about FG.
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You seem pretty fixated on fungal versus vortex when it was a throwaway comment from the first guy.
And somehow you're still on the wrong end of the small argument, even when there are a half a dozen reasons for why vortex (a spell cast by the mothership) is probably not an issue. Sorry, maybe only five reasons now that they made it accelerate at all.
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^ I'm not fixated on, those 2 other people keep bringing it up.
And how am I wrong? Blizzard clearly tried to patch the archon toilet because it was obviously imbalanced as all hell and broken as shit, and they can still do the archon toilet. The patch didn't fix it at all, and having a single mothership and 6 archons totally annihilate any zerg army is broken as shit. I've had quite a few games in my experience where my 10 broodlords with infestors, ultras, and roaches gets annihilated by a 120 supply protoss who has a mothership and a handful of archons, that would otherwise get roflstomped.
It's abusive, and I can't believe you would argue that archon toilet is okay when blizzard clearly tried to fix it.
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On October 07 2011 06:04 Phoobie wrote:Complaint: Ghosts are simply too powerful of a unit for their cost and tech time. Reasons: Against Zerg Emp is very powerful against Infestors, Snipe absolutely Destroys late game Zerg Units such as Ultras and Broodlords Against Protoss in the late game EMP can easily sway a key battle for terran, removing shields, sentry and HT energy makes the Terran's Army a lot more cost effective. Suggested Change(s) -Ghost Cost reverted to 150 minerals/150 gas, up from 200 minerals/100 Gas -Cost of Snipe increased to 35, up from 25 -Ghost EMP has been Replaced with Lockdown which costs 75 Energy, Lockdown will stun a mechanical Unit preventing any actions from it for 12 seconds, lasts 6 seconds against a massive unit. -High Templar Movement speed increase by .15 -Infestor Health reduced to 85, down from 90 -Hunter Missle Research for the Raven has been replaced with EMP Missile which allows the Raven to Fire an EMP Missile for 75 energy, draining up to 100 Energy and Shields. Reasoning: Now these are A LOT of changes that will have a dramatic effect I understand, the Motivation behind this is that EMP itself came too early in the game and was too cheap to attain. EMP being a research for the raven means will see EMP come much later, more around the time when a Protoss player would be getting his high templars with storm. Snipe also got an increase in Energy Cost so that it can't be spammed as often against a Zerg. In compensation, however, Infestors losing 5 HP means that a ghost can kill it easier with 2 snipes rather than 3 (since the infestor will generate 1hp) and Ghosts with the lockdown ability will be Potent to use against Stalkers, Sentries, Immortals and Colossus, while hopefully not being too potent against key units such as the Colossus (half duration against Massive) this is me throwing my thoughts out to the community, feel free to bash these ideas
I think balance around ghosts is a touchy subject and kind of a difficult thing to balance. But, I think you are onto something in some regards and partially off in others.
1) Lockdown could make TvP and TvZ even more difficult because Colossus are INCREDIBLY important in TvP, and Brood Lords and Ultras are becoming incredibly effective in the late game TvZ. Lockdown on those units would almost get them killed instantly. Honestly snaring massive units doesn't make any sense to me and I feel that it messes with balance.
2) A large issue with Ghost snipe is not only is it very powerful, but it also has 10 range (?). Now, I would rather propose that snipe range be reduced to 8 (that way it is harder to bait HTs into getting sniped due to slow speed) and that it did 30 damage to armored.
3) I 100 percent agree that EMP should be an ability on the Raven, but I don't think that it should get rid of Seeker Missle. I think the Raven has a lot of versatility but high mana costs for abilities don't make it overpowered.
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On October 07 2011 10:05 Belial88 wrote:
Thanks. You really make this discussion great. I'm not using any ad hominems. I said persecuted protoss feels persecuted, because he obviously has some pent up rage about other Zergs. Like, great, what do I care? Sure, FG is OP, like, I wasn't even talking about FG. I don't actually. I have 2 accounts, and play zerg on the second . I'm just saying don't immediately call it OP just because you lost to it. We haven't seen any issues with it at pro level (more like we rarely see it in general) so wait and see if something comes up, and if it does, Blizzard will deal with it accordingly. Yes, I know there are mothership based builds that utilize vortex becoming popular that some zergs are having a hard time with them but wait and see if there is a solution before immediately calling them OP. That's what every race has been told for various struggles they have (Think of the Toss domination a while back where everyone was claiming Protoss was broken because of crazy timing attacks, or the 2rax marine/scv all-in back 10 months ago against zerg). Also, I have no issue with fungal, it's fine. If you aren't aware of their presence, you get punished by being locked down. Same with EMP, Storm, and Vortex. Their effects are minimized if you are vigilant and scout them and prepare before they can land a spell.
All I meant to do was make a sarcastic comment on how Protoss were told for months by zergs (not you I'm guessing but many other zergs) to just spread things out and it wasn't a problem with fungal but you took it waaaaay out of proportion. Perhaps you should maybe read a post more than once and think about what was being said, and the tone of the post before immediately responding with aggression. It's basic forum etiquette.
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EPT
