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On October 03 2011 08:33 Cuiu wrote:
i dont know if this is viable.
but why do you start with 2 gas?
should gas not be something rare
why is something like 1base thor/colossus/banshee even possible?
you should be forced for something like that
dont hate on me. im just asking
Toss will just roll over and die to 2 rax, roach/liing all in , speedling/baneling all in (and basically all forms of zerg aggression) because they cant support sentry + stalker production on one gas and gateway units just plain suck. Also openings like DT expand, 1 gate stargate expand, 3 gate sentry expand will all get killed. Think before you post such random stuff.
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On October 03 2011 09:37 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 08:33 Cuiu wrote:
i dont know if this is viable.
but why do you start with 2 gas?
should gas not be something rare
why is something like 1base thor/colossus/banshee even possible?
you should be forced for something like that
dont hate on me. im just asking Toss will just roll over and die to 2 rax, roach/liing all in , speedling/baneling all in (and basically all forms of zerg aggression) because they cant support sentry + stalker production on one gas and gateway units just plain suck. Also openings like DT expand, 1 gate stargate expand, 3 gate sentry expand will all get killed. Think before you post such random stuff.
no no thats not my point
im aware that the game is balanced arround 2gas
its a design thing.
you can not balance game design without changing the whole game.
my point is that when you want to balance a game you start where the game begins and thats the economy.
maybe im right maybe im wrong whatever
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Someone please explain to me what scouting denial Terran can do that other races can't. Yeah, there's wall-offs (which protoss also routinely does). There's putting marines around to deny suicide overlords (which you could also do with stalkers. Admittedly, zerg has trouble denying overlord scouts, which is why they cover the map in ZvZ). And zerg can't wall-off so easily, but then, he doesn't need to when the zerg race is designed to have map control anyway. What other tools to denying scouting does a Terran have at his disposable?
For that matter, what makes Terran so much better at scouting? Scan is a really risky scout, since hiding buildings from scans is not exactly hard to do. Reaper scouts are similarly a big investment, and just as easy to deny as overlord scouts (easier, depending on the map). Sure, it's kinda hard for zerg to hide the fact that he's going lairtech, but zergs could hide their structures wherever they wanted if they were trying to be sneaky. Protoss players can and do hide critical tech structures, keeping Terrans in the dark and uncertain of whether they need to, say, get a turret up and go for DTs, or start getting vikings up against colossi, or start getting ghosts up against HTs. Or hell, start favoring marines instead of marauders against zealot- or immortal-heavy compositions.
As for the 1-1-1. it's a strong build, but definitely depends on doing some serious damage with an early push. Mech and air are not very strong in TvP; MMM+ghost is the money composition, and 1-1-1 does not get you there. It is, however, a tech rush build, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that armies out of a 1-1-1 can beat superior-food forces; if you go 1-base colossus, and your opponent goes for 2-base 5 barracks production, you should be able to take out an army quite a bit bigger in food. That's the whole point of getting high tech units–they are better than low-tech units.
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On October 03 2011 17:54 ChristianS wrote:
Someone please explain to me what scouting denial Terran can do that other races can't. Yeah, there's wall-offs (which protoss also routinely does). There's putting marines around to deny suicide overlords (which you could also do with stalkers. Admittedly, zerg has trouble denying overlord scouts, which is why they cover the map in ZvZ). And zerg can't wall-off so easily, but then, he doesn't need to when the zerg race is designed to have map control anyway. What other tools to denying scouting does a Terran have at his disposable?
For that matter, what makes Terran so much better at scouting? Scan is a really risky scout, since hiding buildings from scans is not exactly hard to do. Reaper scouts are similarly a big investment, and just as easy to deny as overlord scouts (easier, depending on the map). Sure, it's kinda hard for zerg to hide the fact that he's going lairtech, but zergs could hide their structures wherever they wanted if they were trying to be sneaky. Protoss players can and do hide critical tech structures, keeping Terrans in the dark and uncertain of whether they need to, say, get a turret up and go for DTs, or start getting vikings up against colossi, or start getting ghosts up against HTs. Or hell, start favoring marines instead of marauders against zealot- or immortal-heavy compositions.
As for the 1-1-1. it's a strong build, but definitely depends on doing some serious damage with an early push. Mech and air are not very strong in TvP; MMM+ghost is the money composition, and 1-1-1 does not get you there. It is, however, a tech rush build, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that armies out of a 1-1-1 can beat superior-food forces; if you go 1-base colossus, and your opponent goes for 2-base 5 barracks production, you should be able to take out an army quite a bit bigger in food. That's the whole point of getting high tech units–they are better than low-tech units.
To me the problem has always been that you just don't know what a Terran is doing. Even if you've scouted him and seen two Barracks and one Tech Lab, that still doesn't tell you definitively what he's doing. It's those damn universal addons. They provide zero conclusive scouting because they can be swapped to other buildings at any time for a completely different army, all the while the Terran player sits behind his unbreakable wall of Depots.
I don't think Terran is any better at scouting than other races though, it's just that Terran is impossible to scout 100%.
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On October 03 2011 17:54 ChristianS wrote:
Someone please explain to me what scouting denial Terran can do that other races can't. Yeah, there's wall-offs (which protoss also routinely does). There's putting marines around to deny suicide overlords (which you could also do with stalkers. Admittedly, zerg has trouble denying overlord scouts, which is why they cover the map in ZvZ). And zerg can't wall-off so easily, but then, he doesn't need to when the zerg race is designed to have map control anyway. What other tools to denying scouting does a Terran have at his disposable?
For that matter, what makes Terran so much better at scouting? Scan is a really risky scout, since hiding buildings from scans is not exactly hard to do. Reaper scouts are similarly a big investment, and just as easy to deny as overlord scouts (easier, depending on the map). Sure, it's kinda hard for zerg to hide the fact that he's going lairtech, but zergs could hide their structures wherever they wanted if they were trying to be sneaky. Protoss players can and do hide critical tech structures, keeping Terrans in the dark and uncertain of whether they need to, say, get a turret up and go for DTs, or start getting vikings up against colossi, or start getting ghosts up against HTs. Or hell, start favoring marines instead of marauders against zealot- or immortal-heavy compositions.
As for the 1-1-1. it's a strong build, but definitely depends on doing some serious damage with an early push. Mech and air are not very strong in TvP; MMM+ghost is the money composition, and 1-1-1 does not get you there. It is, however, a tech rush build, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that armies out of a 1-1-1 can beat superior-food forces; if you go 1-base colossus, and your opponent goes for 2-base 5 barracks production, you should be able to take out an army quite a bit bigger in food. That's the whole point of getting high tech units–they are better than low-tech units.
* Protoss routinely walls off against Terran? Quit trolling.
* Re: "Someone please explain to me what scouting denial Terran can do that other races can't."
There's a gigantic post in the last page by Destructicon which you completely ignored. It answers the question you ask in the first line - "how is Terran scouting superior?" Destructicon wrote a giant post telling you how, and you chose to pretend it didn't exist. The guy practically just wrote an essay about it.
* You're making it sound like 1-1-1 carries a fair amount of risk. "Depends on doing damage." Watch MC vs. Puma at IEM (game 1). Even if you crush the first wave of 1-1-1, and the Terran player does not succeed in dealing significant damage and loses his entire army, he's still even.
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On October 03 2011 18:06 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 17:54 ChristianS wrote:
Someone please explain to me what scouting denial Terran can do that other races can't. Yeah, there's wall-offs (which protoss also routinely does). There's putting marines around to deny suicide overlords (which you could also do with stalkers. Admittedly, zerg has trouble denying overlord scouts, which is why they cover the map in ZvZ). And zerg can't wall-off so easily, but then, he doesn't need to when the zerg race is designed to have map control anyway. What other tools to denying scouting does a Terran have at his disposable?
For that matter, what makes Terran so much better at scouting? Scan is a really risky scout, since hiding buildings from scans is not exactly hard to do. Reaper scouts are similarly a big investment, and just as easy to deny as overlord scouts (easier, depending on the map). Sure, it's kinda hard for zerg to hide the fact that he's going lairtech, but zergs could hide their structures wherever they wanted if they were trying to be sneaky. Protoss players can and do hide critical tech structures, keeping Terrans in the dark and uncertain of whether they need to, say, get a turret up and go for DTs, or start getting vikings up against colossi, or start getting ghosts up against HTs. Or hell, start favoring marines instead of marauders against zealot- or immortal-heavy compositions.
As for the 1-1-1. it's a strong build, but definitely depends on doing some serious damage with an early push. Mech and air are not very strong in TvP; MMM+ghost is the money composition, and 1-1-1 does not get you there. It is, however, a tech rush build, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that armies out of a 1-1-1 can beat superior-food forces; if you go 1-base colossus, and your opponent goes for 2-base 5 barracks production, you should be able to take out an army quite a bit bigger in food. That's the whole point of getting high tech units–they are better than low-tech units.
* Protoss routinely walls off against Terran? Quit trolling. * Re: "Someone please explain to me what scouting denial Terran can do that other races can't." There's a gigantic post in the last page by Destructicon which you completely ignored. It answers the question you ask in the first line - "how is Terran scouting superior?" Destructicon wrote a giant post telling you how, and you chose to pretend it didn't exist. The guy practically just wrote an essay about it.* You're making it sound like 1-1-1 carries a fair amount of risk. "Depends on doing damage." Watch MC vs. Puma at IEM (game 1). Even if you crush the first wave of 1-1-1, and the Terran player does not succeed in dealing significant damage and loses his entire army, he's still even.
I read the Destructicon post. It elaborated on how Terrans can place buildings so that opponents won't scout them. Or they can set up marines to deny overlord scouts. And sometimes (even at pro levels of play) they can notice and snipe an observer.
Other races can hide buildings, too. Nor is denying overlord scouts a unique ability. As for sniping observers, pros do not have a "shimmer detector." What they have is an idea of when an observer will show up normally based on timings, and they look for it then. So if you observer rush, and send it straight to his base, and he's a Korean pro, he might know to look right then. If you're also pro, you know to take a less direct route, or to time for when a scan won't be available, or to skirt the edges and avoid clusters of marines so it can't be sniped.
The Destructicon post, as long as it is, does not even pretend to describe scouting options that Terran has and other races do not. Terran can scout with 1) a scan, 2) sending a unit to the front, 3) a reaper, or 4) a big push (Technically floating in a barracks or factory can be done, too. That is done so rarely and is so impractical in most situations that I'll skip that possibility for now). Zerg can scout with 1) an overlord, 2) sending a unit to the front, 3) an overseer, or 4) a big push. Protoss can scout with 1) sending a unit to the front, 2) an observer, 3) a hallucinated phoenix, or 4) a big push.
Looking at that list, I don't see imbalance. Scans are more expensive than overlords, and in most situations are no more likely to see something than an overlord is. They can see into the middle of the base where overseers can't, but they can't cover as large an area as an overlord can. Observers are better than both overlords and scans, but cost valuable gas and just-as-valuable robotics production time. Hallucination is rare, because it is a significant investment, and because the scouting information it offers tends to not be worth the cost. Overseers come late, as to observers, but they are virtually guaranteed to give you a very good idea of what your opponent is doing; scans do not. With all three races, a push big enough to draw all your opponent's units forward is generally the best way to get a good idea of what he is doing.
And you're right, protoss does not typically wall-off PvT. They could deny scouting just as easily with a stalker or two, so they do.
In other words, all three races have scouting problems early game, in that scouting requires an investment, and often those investments are not worth the cost early in the game. Many of those scouting options are not even possible without some sort of tech rush early on, so people typically don't do them. But scan is the only actual mechanic in the Terran arsenal that other races can't match, and it's not a very good scouting technique, especially in the stages in question (very early stages, before an observer could reasonably be expected to be out). And in turn, those races have scouting mechanics that Terran lacks, which can do things that the Terran scouting possibilities can't do.
So why is it impossible to hide things against Terran? What can he do that you can't do in terms of scouting?
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Oh, as for the 1-1-1, if you are on 2 bases and the Terran is on 1, and you engage his 1-1-1 army and crush it, you are not on even footing by any stretch of the imagination. He certainly still has a tech advantage, but he is very much behind. If he sent SCVs, even more so. And if he came back and won through some brilliant comeback technique, that is a credit to his ability as a player, not a comment on balance.
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4713 Posts
By your last post I can tell that all you are doing is talking in theory without any practice what so ever.
We just told you to check out replays from Sase and the even more infamous IEM final of Puma vs MC, game 1. In those and many other examples you see the terran push out on equal supply to the protoss with SCVs as well, and he either destroys the protoss or weakens him so much that the 2nd attack will kill the Protoss.
What you are talking about is pure theory, in theory a protoss who has been on 2 bases for that long should have some kind of an advantage large enough to win against a 1 base play, but in practice that almost never happens.
Now you are just being foolishly stubborn and trying to avoid our main point and the evidence that is most clearly in front of you, when there are so many clear recorded examples of 1/1/1 crushing protoss into the ground.
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On October 03 2011 18:59 ChristianS wrote:
Oh, as for the 1-1-1, if you are on 2 bases and the Terran is on 1, and you engage his 1-1-1 army and crush it, you are not on even footing by any stretch of the imagination. He certainly still has a tech advantage, but he is very much behind. If he sent SCVs, even more so. And if he came back and won through some brilliant comeback technique, that is a credit to his ability as a player, not a comment on balance.
I just saw a game with Puma yet again today that that puts a hole in that statement. If the first wave doesn't kill the Toss then the marine follow up 4 mins later certainly will.
Dont get me wrong you have to be skilled to do it, but once you have the technique down pat the win rate for Terran is amazing.
Then there is the fact that the toss is completely mind fucked and simply expects the 1-1-1 every game so when it doesn't happen they are fucked anyways.
This wont be fixed until HOTS imho so Toss will just have to suck it up and take the pain
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I agree that the addon swapping is a bad design choice, it makes scouting terran extremely hard and it gives them almost their entire tech tree with one cheap addon because they can just swap it around to build whatever they want. If you have a techlab on your rax and a reactor on your starport but then you scout a dark shrine you just swap them and build a raven. A protoss scouting a flashing techlab on a starport has to build a robotics facility which is 200/100 and takes 65sec to build, oh sorry i forgot there's no chance i will even scout that without having a robo facility already so I'm already dead versus that build unless i blindly build a robo every game.
Another thing I want to bring up is salvaging bunkers, it's just retarded that terran gets these free defensive buildings that are as strong as they are, yes I know they're not literally free but close enough. Protoss has cannons that are much more expensive/effective for their cost, and they require a fucking tech building to even build. Terran can just throw up 3 bunkers if they feel a bit unsafe after their fast expand and if they weren't needed they wasted 75 minerals for a huge defensive boost during that time. Protoss fast expands and feels unsafe? You just keep feeling unsafe because you can't build a forge and 3 cannons unless you feel like losing the game. Not that this even matters because the protoss can't really expand before he can see the CC fly out anyway since there could be an 1/1/1 behind that walloff for all you know.
Bit of a rant but a lot of truth in there as well.
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On October 03 2011 18:57 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 18:06 Brotocol wrote:On October 03 2011 17:54 ChristianS wrote:
Someone please explain to me what scouting denial Terran can do that other races can't. Yeah, there's wall-offs (which protoss also routinely does). There's putting marines around to deny suicide overlords (which you could also do with stalkers. Admittedly, zerg has trouble denying overlord scouts, which is why they cover the map in ZvZ). And zerg can't wall-off so easily, but then, he doesn't need to when the zerg race is designed to have map control anyway. What other tools to denying scouting does a Terran have at his disposable?
For that matter, what makes Terran so much better at scouting? Scan is a really risky scout, since hiding buildings from scans is not exactly hard to do. Reaper scouts are similarly a big investment, and just as easy to deny as overlord scouts (easier, depending on the map). Sure, it's kinda hard for zerg to hide the fact that he's going lairtech, but zergs could hide their structures wherever they wanted if they were trying to be sneaky. Protoss players can and do hide critical tech structures, keeping Terrans in the dark and uncertain of whether they need to, say, get a turret up and go for DTs, or start getting vikings up against colossi, or start getting ghosts up against HTs. Or hell, start favoring marines instead of marauders against zealot- or immortal-heavy compositions.
As for the 1-1-1. it's a strong build, but definitely depends on doing some serious damage with an early push. Mech and air are not very strong in TvP; MMM+ghost is the money composition, and 1-1-1 does not get you there. It is, however, a tech rush build, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that armies out of a 1-1-1 can beat superior-food forces; if you go 1-base colossus, and your opponent goes for 2-base 5 barracks production, you should be able to take out an army quite a bit bigger in food. That's the whole point of getting high tech units–they are better than low-tech units.
* Protoss routinely walls off against Terran? Quit trolling. * Re: "Someone please explain to me what scouting denial Terran can do that other races can't." There's a gigantic post in the last page by Destructicon which you completely ignored. It answers the question you ask in the first line - "how is Terran scouting superior?" Destructicon wrote a giant post telling you how, and you chose to pretend it didn't exist. The guy practically just wrote an essay about it.* You're making it sound like 1-1-1 carries a fair amount of risk. "Depends on doing damage." Watch MC vs. Puma at IEM (game 1). Even if you crush the first wave of 1-1-1, and the Terran player does not succeed in dealing significant damage and loses his entire army, he's still even. I read the Destructicon post. It elaborated on how Terrans can place buildings so that opponents won't scout them. Or they can set up marines to deny overlord scouts. And sometimes (even at pro levels of play) they can notice and snipe an observer. Other races can hide buildings, too. Nor is denying overlord scouts a unique ability. As for sniping observers, pros do not have a "shimmer detector." What they have is an idea of when an observer will show up normally based on timings, and they look for it then. So if you observer rush, and send it straight to his base, and he's a Korean pro, he might know to look right then. If you're also pro, you know to take a less direct route, or to time for when a scan won't be available, or to skirt the edges and avoid clusters of marines so it can't be sniped. The Destructicon post, as long as it is, does not even pretend to describe scouting options that Terran has and other races do not. Terran can scout with 1) a scan, 2) sending a unit to the front, 3) a reaper, or 4) a big push (Technically floating in a barracks or factory can be done, too. That is done so rarely and is so impractical in most situations that I'll skip that possibility for now). Zerg can scout with 1) an overlord, 2) sending a unit to the front, 3) an overseer, or 4) a big push. Protoss can scout with 1) sending a unit to the front, 2) an observer, 3) a hallucinated phoenix, or 4) a big push. Looking at that list, I don't see imbalance. Scans are more expensive than overlords, and in most situations are no more likely to see something than an overlord is. They can see into the middle of the base where overseers can't, but they can't cover as large an area as an overlord can. Observers are better than both overlords and scans, but cost valuable gas and just-as-valuable robotics production time. Hallucination is rare, because it is a significant investment, and because the scouting information it offers tends to not be worth the cost. Overseers come late, as to observers, but they are virtually guaranteed to give you a very good idea of what your opponent is doing; scans do not. With all three races, a push big enough to draw all your opponent's units forward is generally the best way to get a good idea of what he is doing. And you're right, protoss does not typically wall-off PvT. They could deny scouting just as easily with a stalker or two, so they do. In other words, all three races have scouting problems early game, in that scouting requires an investment, and often those investments are not worth the cost early in the game. Many of those scouting options are not even possible without some sort of tech rush early on, so people typically don't do them. But scan is the only actual mechanic in the Terran arsenal that other races can't match, and it's not a very good scouting technique, especially in the stages in question (very early stages, before an observer could reasonably be expected to be out). And in turn, those races have scouting mechanics that Terran lacks, which can do things that the Terran scouting possibilities can't do. So why is it impossible to hide things against Terran? What can he do that you can't do in terms of scouting?
No one is talking about scouting options mid-late game which is what you're incorporating. The issue here is the scout at aroun 4:30. Often times if that scout is picked off, the zerg player (I don't know much about tvp) will just flat out loose because he chose to counter the wrong thing. Terran doesn't need the ability to scout that well early on because there are very few options that a zerg player can go that will flat out kill a terran. Roach ling all in and baneling busts are very easy to spot and scans take care of the timing on the lair which you can use to deduce the time of mutas.
With toss it's different because the allins that toss does are actually allins. When a 4 gate fails, then it fails and the game is won for the zerg. When a hellion marine all in fails, terrans just bunker up and start macroing.
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Anyone ever look at balance this way?
In broodwar no patches were ever made (from what I see) to change the effects of the units unless it was considered a glitch.
http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&articleId=21150
Now, in Starcraft Vanilla there was a monetary change to the spawning pool changing the mineral requirement from 150 to 200 because of how effective a zergling rush could be.
That change made it so the VERY early game was not imbalanced.
Some might ask why does that matter this is a different game?
It matters because back then Blizzard did nothing to the game. Why? Because Blizzard didn't need to. If X strategy worked people would use it. If someone thought that X strategy was good against their Y strategy they would invent Z. It was as simple as that. Eventually over the evolution of the metagame of this scenario happening over and over and over the pros came up with solid strategies that they tweaked to their own style. It was not Blizzard who said X race is winning now let me change that. I think more people should invest more time in discovering their own unique way to beat a certain build rather than attempt to get something fixed that allows their current build to succeed though a buff to you or a nerf to them.
Now, in some regards I will say the game is complete. The units for all races don't seem to match up to the individuality they had before, but remember Blizzard wants $180 for the full game of SC2, not just $60. And even though these units might not be in the game currently there are enough units out there and techniques to put you on an even level with X strategy.
Wanted a Ninja Edit: I do feel that the maps play a bit more into these discussions as well. The bases are too close together. The maps don't have nearly enough complexity to them either. I can't say I like a single SC2 map when compared to a BW map, but that is how Blizzard and even GSL left us. Playing on shit maps.
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On October 04 2011 02:38 NoobSkills wrote:
Anyone ever look at balance this way?
In broodwar no patches were ever made (from what I see) to change the effects of the units unless it was considered a glitch.
The map/modding community for BW was HUGE. Blizzard didn't balance their units because basically they didn't have to. All the maps aimed for balance and the type of map could heavily favour one race over another. Tricks like the one mineral patch blocking a pathway meant were used to help when balance seemed really tricky (basically a smarter version of Destructible Rocks).
Oh, and you're still assuming BW was actually balanced. I highly doubt that, given that while Protoss was very effective at the 1a 2a 3a level, once the pros started playing it seemed that
Protoss could never quite match the feats of Terran or Zerg. There hasn't yet been a bonjwa for Protoss, and Jangbi just won an OSL, that being the first Protoss win since 2008!
Also, it could be argued that the game design for BW was just a lot better than SC2, and it was an expansion so it was only improving on what was already there, whereas sc2 is a fully seperate release and had a very different design philosophy in mind.
On October 04 2011 02:38 NoobSkills wrote:http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&articleId=21150
Now, in Starcraft Vanilla there was a monetary change to the spawning pool changing the mineral requirement from 150 to 200 because of how effective a zergling rush could be.
That change made it so the VERY early game was not imbalanced.
Some might ask why does that matter this is a different game?
It matters because back then Blizzard did nothing to the game. Why? Because Blizzard didn't need to. If X strategy worked people would use it. If someone thought that X strategy was good against their Y strategy they would invent Z. It was as simple as that. Eventually over the evolution of the metagame of this scenario happening over and over and over the pros came up with solid strategies that they tweaked to their own style. It was not Blizzard who said X race is winning now let me change that. I think more people should invest more time in discovering their own unique way to beat a certain build rather than attempt to get something fixed that allows their current build to succeed though a buff to you or a nerf to them.
Bullshit. If it was so easy for every Tom, Dick and Harry to invent their own solutions to the 1-1-1 in PvT it seems pretty obvious that some pro would have done it by now, given that their livelihoods depended on it. People give examples like PvZ in BW considered to be heavily Zerg favoured before Bisu came along, but actually the win-rates were only about 60-40 in Zerg's favour in Korean tournaments, and the situation was different in that it was a style of play that required revolutionised, the scene was still evolving (there was no framework like there is for SC2 to work around) etc. With the 1-1-1 (Marine-Tank-Banshee), that build has over a 90% success rate in GSL/MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. It is a 1base push, not a macro style. It has been around since GSL Season ONE, it is not a new crazy build. Oh, and last month the win rates for PvT were <40% for Protoss in Korea. Surely that means that there is not just some new style of play nobody has thought of yet? Surely there is a clear issue here?
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I am not assuming that BW was balanced because even it has revalations coming out all the time.
Interestingly Jangbi just got to a final, and his play didn't follow X strategy it followed Jangbi's strategy. So, there seems to be something he is doing right because his jangbi strategy won against 3, top 5, terrans when before he lost easily 3-0 to flash.
If you need a visual aid to learning a counter build to 1-1-1 I'd suggest watching JYP and Genius SLAP the 1-1-1 build and make it look silly. Oh wait that was before the patch as well. You also say that 1-1-1 was in season 1. While the buildings were around the strategy was not sorry. You also then quote win rates for GSL for ONE MONTH. Quote ZvP stats in BW for what? 2 Years? Then Bisu fucks it up. There was something left in the bag, nobody had found it yet.
TLDR
JYP + Genius > 1-1-1
Most of your references are easily countered by facts.
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On October 04 2011 03:07 NoobSkills wrote:
I am not assuming that BW was balanced because even it has revalations coming out all the time.
Interestingly Jangbi just got to a final, and his play didn't follow X strategy it followed Jangbi's strategy. So, there seems to be something he is doing right because his jangbi strategy won against 3, top 5, terrans when before he lost easily 3-0 to flash.
If you need a visual aid to learning a counter build to 1-1-1 I'd suggest watching JYP and Genius SLAP the 1-1-1 build and make it look silly. Oh wait that was before the patch as well. You also say that 1-1-1 was in season 1. While the buildings were around the strategy was not sorry. You also then quote win rates for GSL for ONE MONTH. Quote ZvP stats in BW for what? 2 Years? Then Bisu fucks it up. There was something left in the bag, nobody had found it yet.
TLDR
JYP + Genius > 1-1-1
Most of your references are easily countered by facts.
Oh yeah, we saw how JYP destroyed Puma's 111 yesterday....
Plus, if you talking about Genius vs Thorzain game, that doesnt even count. Thorzain didnt siege his tanks, he just a-moved.
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Just saying, Terran's generally save a scan for around 5-6 minutes in. Tosses need a robo with an observer to do the same thing. 1's part of the macro mechanic (and no, scanning is not mineral inefficient since it costs 0 gas and is instant/uncounterable/can't be killed/detects) and the other is basically investing in a tech tree.
nobody can get early hallucination since it costs huge gas, requires high energy sentries, and delay warpgates.
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On October 04 2011 03:07 NoobSkills wrote:
I am not assuming that BW was balanced because even it has revalations coming out all the time.
Interestingly Jangbi just got to a final, and his play didn't follow X strategy it followed Jangbi's strategy. So, there seems to be something he is doing right because his jangbi strategy won against 3, top 5, terrans when before he lost easily 3-0 to flash.
Actually, the Jangbi vs Fantasy games support my argument far more than they do yours. The 2base Carrier build that Jangbi used in TWO of the 5 games was really map dependant (on Pathfinder), and without the maps being so heavily favouring that build it is quite safe to say he would not have won using that build. So, he did not "follow jangbi's strategy". He followed a strategy that was really fucking good on that map, and was well known to be really fucking good on that map.
I also find it funny that you accuse me of using too small a sample size later on and then bolster your argument with Jangbi winning one league.
On October 04 2011 03:07 NoobSkills wrote:If you need a visual aid to learning a counter build to 1-1-1 I'd suggest watching JYP and Genius SLAP the 1-1-1 build and make it look silly. Oh wait that was before the patch as well. You also say that 1-1-1 was in season 1. While the buildings were around the strategy was not sorry. You also then quote win rates for GSL for ONE MONTH. Quote ZvP stats in BW for what? 2 Years? Then Bisu fucks it up. There was something left in the bag, nobody had found it yet.
I explained why the state was very different for the 1-1-1 and the ZvP in BW before Bisu-era. The win rates were just evidence to back it up, and I apologise that there is not enough evidence out there to use for this decisively.
You reference JYP and Genius. Genius beat ThorZain because ThorZain played abominably, forgetting to seige his tanks before fighting. JYP massively outplayed his opponent, both through micro and macro so it is no surprise he managed to win that one. JYP then went on to get crushed by Puma using the same build, so it clearly isn't a case of consistently beating a cheese and having "figured it out".
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Comparing scouting zerg to scouting terran or protoss just doesn't make sense. With T and P you want to look for production buildings so you can have an idea of hte kind of composition they'll have in a few minutes. With zerg they just need one tech building for each unit and they can have whatever quantity of whatever unit they want. That means if I scout a spire, I still can't be sure he won't mass banelings and bust my front.
I'm not going to look up individual games of Puma killing people with a 111. Suffice to say it appears that Puma has a very intimidating 1-1-1 build he's set up. But you don't need to get a robotics blindly every time any more than a zerg needs to get spore crawlers blindly every game right when DTs show up just in case. Instead zerg tries to get a sentry count, and if it's too low, then they know stargate or DT could be coming, and have to invest accordingly. So if you see 2 marines and a bunker building when you do your pressure with your first stalker (another excellent scouting tool), then there probably isn't a high barracks count. If you see five marines or three marines and a marauder, or three marines and two marauders, or some other high barracks unit count, then he can not be doing a very efficient 1-1-1, and you can afford to delay your robo. Or you can get the robo anyway, start pumping immortals, and kill the marauders from range 6. Your choice.
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On October 04 2011 04:55 ChristianS wrote:
Comparing scouting zerg to scouting terran or protoss just doesn't make sense. With T and P you want to look for production buildings so you can have an idea of hte kind of composition they'll have in a few minutes. With zerg they just need one tech building for each unit and they can have whatever quantity of whatever unit they want. That means if I scout a spire, I still can't be sure he won't mass banelings and bust my front.
I'm not going to look up individual games of Puma killing people with a 111. Suffice to say it appears that Puma has a very intimidating 1-1-1 build he's set up. But you don't need to get a robotics blindly every time any more than a zerg needs to get spore crawlers blindly every game right when DTs show up just in case. Instead zerg tries to get a sentry count, and if it's too low, then they know stargate or DT could be coming, and have to invest accordingly. So if you see 2 marines and a bunker building when you do your pressure with your first stalker (another excellent scouting tool), then there probably isn't a high barracks count. If you see five marines or three marines and a marauder, or three marines and two marauders, or some other high barracks unit count, then he can not be doing a very efficient 1-1-1, and you can afford to delay your robo. Or you can get the robo anyway, start pumping immortals, and kill the marauders from range 6. Your choice.
you still can't get around the fact that terran is the only race who has a macro-mechanic for scouting that has no apparently weaknesses aside from the terran choosing to scan the wrong place.
btw idk what games you watch but zergs do build blind spores since they counter 100% of protoss harass and don't cost any gas.
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On October 04 2011 05:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 04:55 ChristianS wrote:
Comparing scouting zerg to scouting terran or protoss just doesn't make sense. With T and P you want to look for production buildings so you can have an idea of hte kind of composition they'll have in a few minutes. With zerg they just need one tech building for each unit and they can have whatever quantity of whatever unit they want. That means if I scout a spire, I still can't be sure he won't mass banelings and bust my front.
I'm not going to look up individual games of Puma killing people with a 111. Suffice to say it appears that Puma has a very intimidating 1-1-1 build he's set up. But you don't need to get a robotics blindly every time any more than a zerg needs to get spore crawlers blindly every game right when DTs show up just in case. Instead zerg tries to get a sentry count, and if it's too low, then they know stargate or DT could be coming, and have to invest accordingly. So if you see 2 marines and a bunker building when you do your pressure with your first stalker (another excellent scouting tool), then there probably isn't a high barracks count. If you see five marines or three marines and a marauder, or three marines and two marauders, or some other high barracks unit count, then he can not be doing a very efficient 1-1-1, and you can afford to delay your robo. Or you can get the robo anyway, start pumping immortals, and kill the marauders from range 6. Your choice. you still can't get around the fact that terran is the only race who has a macro-mechanic for scouting that has no apparently weaknesses aside from the terran choosing to scan the wrong place. btw idk what games you watch but zergs do build blind spores since they counter 100% of protoss harass and don't cost any gas.
Except that there is an extreme pressure on terrans to use MULE because they have the weakest straight up economy because they build worker the slowest. So every time terran scans he falls behind.
I'm all for Zerg being able to scan by sacrificing a full inject. Not that the complaining would stop...
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EPT
