Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 133

On October 02 2011 05:29 Toadvine wrote:


The fact remains, that you can be safe against everything a Protoss can do with 1 rax FE on almost any map (Blink all-ins on TDA notwithstanding). On the other hand, there exist Terran builds that are very difficult to scout, and which kill 1 Gate FE almost 100% of the time. And typical 1 Gate FE actually gets the Nexus significantly later than 1 Rax FE gets the CC. And it's not even a case of skimping on defense, you just physically can't have enough stuff or the right tech out in time.

So yeah, that's another major advantage Terran enjoys in TvP.

On October 02 2011 10:08 ChristianS wrote:
FFE is defendable. You definitely need to scout, but you only need to scout, say, whether or not gas goes up. That is scouting information you should be able to get, and the T should have an advantage if they can deny that somehow. If they wall off with rax+2 depots, that's scouting information right there that can rule some good builds out.

I'm curious. In the spirit of the thread, what exactly is the balance issue you are pointing to? And what is your suggestion for fixing it?

On October 02 2011 10:25 kofman wrote:

Lol?? 3 or 4 gate stargate, immortal bust, 1 base collosi, blink stalkers are all VERY deadly against a 1 rax FE. Your just plain stupid if you think theres nothing protoss can do against a 1 rax FE.

On October 02 2011 10:57 ChristianS wrote:
What exactly do you mean "no stable opening"? There are certainly openings that will prevent you from being killed outright, which doesn't mean he can't expand. If you mean an opening that keeps you alive and can't allow the Terran to take any advantage, then there's no such thing–from any race. If you want to stay on even footing with the other player or take an advantage consistently, it's going to require some scouting. That goes for all three races.

There are always all-ins that are scary and hard to scout–again, from all three races. Lots of protoss openings are similarly difficult to scout, and similarly scary if not scouted. And what is Terran supposed to do, scan and hope it's in the right spot? Send in a reaper and hope you're not smart enough to put a stalker or two at the cliff, thus nullifying a fairly big scouting investment?

No, T, like everyone else, has to rely on more subtle scouting techniques (scouting the front, anti-timings, etc.). Don't say "T has too many possibilities, I can't possibly worry about all of them," and figure out what the possibilities are, which ones are big threats to your build, and what the telltale signs of those are. As kofman points out, even the "safe" 1 rax fe is vulnerable to any number of Protoss all-ins.

Scouting, man. It's waaay overpowered.

On October 02 2011 14:50 Brotocol wrote:


Quit trolling. Even Browder admitted T has more options. Terran also denies scouting much more easily than other races. This area is so lopsided it's not even funny. T isn't currently "like everyone else." Why do you think 1-1-1 exists? If you seriously think T scouting is like the other races', then you're out of touch with reality.

This isn't about learning to scout. This is about built in, objective limitations to scouting. Quit trying to downplay points as "l2scout." It's disingenuous of you.

Beyond that, Terran is fairly vulnerable against all-ins, which is not the case for other races (you could say they are "unfairly vulnerable"); although, for what it's worth, Blink rush just got a huge nerf. What Protoss all-ins are you afraid of now? I'm genuinely curious. On the flipside, Terran all-ins aren't even all-in. Terran players can send a significant portion of their workers and still have an economy.

Time to stop the denial, stop the bias, and start thinking towards a better game. Quit being so corrupt as to want the game to favor your personal choice.

On October 02 2011 14:50 Brotocol wrote:


Quit trolling. Even Browder admitted T has more options. Terran also denies scouting much more easily than other races. This area is so lopsided it's not even funny. T isn't currently "like everyone else." Why do you think 1-1-1 exists? If you seriously think T scouting is like the other races', then you're out of touch with reality.

This isn't about learning to scout. This is about built in, objective limitations to scouting. Quit trying to downplay points as "l2scout." It's disingenuous of you.

Beyond that, Terran is fairly vulnerable against all-ins, which is not the case for other races (you could say they are "unfairly vulnerable"); although, for what it's worth, Blink rush just got a huge nerf. What Protoss all-ins are you afraid of now? I'm genuinely curious. On the flipside, Terran all-ins aren't even all-in. Terran players can send a significant portion of their workers and still have an economy.

Time to stop the denial, stop the bias, and start thinking towards a better game. Quit being so corrupt as to want the game to favor your personal choice.

On October 03 2011 07:51 Destructicon wrote:
You are delusional if you think Protoss and Zerg scouting options are as good as that of Terran and that both those races can deny scouting as good as Terran.

First, if the terran is smart he will place marines and/or buildings in key places in such a way that any incoming overlord will die before he sees anything important, overlord speed requires lair tech and a time+ resource investment that won't come in till the mid game, by which time it could be too late to react to.

Protoss does indeed need an obs, however I'm not sure if you've noticed but the top players have shimmer detectors built into their brain, if a terran sees the silhouette of your obs going over his base it will get picked of, forcing you to go around or at an odd angle which delays some of the scouting. The 2nd problem is that going robo tech effectively locks the Protoss down that path for a significant time.

Your example of scouting the terran front is faulty, if the terran gets a bunker by default at the front, and only decides to show the 4 marines in the bunker then you won't know if behind the bunker is a mass of rax, a CC or a factory leading into a SP.
By the time you an obs to scout the base it might be too late to react.

Not all terran all ins are all completely all in. The 1/1/1 is a huge example. In a video I saw of, Sase vs some random Korean on the ladder, Sase expanded at the 4:30 min mark, and was steadily building an army, at 11:30 the terran pushes out. The terran didn't have just as much supply as Sase, but he actually had a bit more, of ONE base, and not only that but Sase's army, which also contained a colossus or 2 was totally destroyed. However, the sad part is, even if Sase did survive the first wave, he would have lost a significant amount of units and the follow up of the terran would have finished him off.

And if you still don't believe me watch the Intel Extreme Masters final, Puma vs MC, first game on Xel'Naga caverns, where Puma does the 1/1/1, sends SCVs along, loses all his army, and still has enough resources and production to send a 2nd wave strong enough to kill MC.

I don't understand how you can find it ok that a 1 base terran can keep up in supply with a protoss who has been on 2 base for 66% of the game, I don't understand how you can find it ok that the protoss army is so inefficient even on 2 bases that the terran army could annihilate it. And I sure as hell can't understand how you think it is balanced that the protoss has to work so hard to hold of a push that a terran can execute so easily, remember balance isn't only about existing counters, it is also about how easy those counters are to execute.

However what is worst about the 1/1/1 is not the build itself, it is the fear it causes, if you don't prepare for a 1/1/1 you die to it, if you do prepare for it but the opponent decides to do something else, you still die, and it a lot of tournaments terrans abuse this fact and punish the protoss over and over again by trowing at them lots of stuff.

If the terran does 2 rax pressure, or fast 1 rax CC and you prepare for a 1/1/1 you can lose horribly, and its a basic coin flip now a days that determines the outcome of the match.

And you are wrong in assuming you can punish a 1 rax CC, with the proper scouting the terran can shut down any shenanigans, and the terran does have the proper tools to scout.

Also the 1/1/1 is not only a strong push that can outright kill, it is also a build that is so robust it can shut down any all in timing the protoss might try against the terran.

The worst assumption you do however is presume that all races have an infinite number of builds and/or timings. In fact a lot of the strategies available are dictated by match-up, map being played and map position and resource intake.

Against terran, you have to get an obs for two reasons, you need to scout the terran and you need to reveal potential cloaked units. Already this need to get obs constricts your choices, you can't go super heavy GW or SG play, because you need a robo for obs. Building Robo just for the obs is a resource sink and incredibly inefficient play style since you'll have an idle building. Going SG with robo isn't viable because of of the huge gas costs.
So, once you get Robo, you're forced down that path for a while and need to make use of it by building immortals as well as whatever units you can afford from GW.

This lack of flexibility on the protoss part is one of the factors that is heavily abused by terrans.
Now, the other problem that arises is that, your obs will come out quite late to provide useful reactionary info.

If the terran was building a CC behind his bunker by the time your obs gets to scout it the CC has already finished and the terran was already double MULEing for a while, building double SCVs and readying to setup his expansions, if he didn't do so already.

Or he could have been building for a early game pressure and then expand behind it, timed in such a way that the push would come exactly when your obs comes out.

Or he could have been doing a 1/1/1 in which case you'll spot it in time but will still struggle to stop it.

Now, the problem with all the above is that, those strategies all require a specific response, and to respond efficiently they need good scouting. Terran denies scouting better then the other races, which forces Protoss into a very predictable build which also leaves them vulnerable to other timings and pushes. In short, you can't respond efficiently to all those strategies because the scouting comes really late and you can't scout any better no matter what you try.

Now, we aren't suggesting anything, we just want you people to understand that Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg have some huge problems that they can't deal with efficiently. And so far the statistics from the tournaments at the highest level of play show that protoss is struggling, the professional players have come forth and said protoss is in a bad shape, and even we the spectators can see it in all the replays and the casts of all the big tournaments.

On October 03 2011 08:05 Destructicon wrote:
Make Hallucination a default spell and make Guardian shield trainable, this will give protoss one more early game scouting tool necessary to react to certain situations.

On September 28 2011 14:27 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I hope all you guys claiming "storm is so powerful" just saw Puzzle vs Taeja in the Korean Weekly, where Taeja stood there, ate storms, while taking fire from a Colossus, while Puzzle had a supply advantage, and all he had to do was stim and come out ahead.

On October 03 2011 08:20 aksfjh wrote:


You just broke PvP again. Try again.

On October 03 2011 08:33 Cuiu wrote:
i dont know if this is viable.

but why do you start with 2 gas?
should gas not be something rare

why is something like 1base thor/colossus/banshee even possible?
you should be forced for something like that

dont hate on me. im just asking

On October 03 2011 08:33 Cuiu wrote:
i dont know if this is viable.

but why do you start with 2 gas?
should gas not be something rare

why is something like 1base thor/colossus/banshee even possible?
you should be forced for something like that

dont hate on me. im just asking

On October 03 2011 08:49 Destructicon wrote:
Actually, 1 base thor or colossus is really flimsy, in general you want colossus and/or thor to augment your army, you need a good base already to support your army, you have a colossus or 2 but not enough stalkers and zealots to support them they can get blown up easily even by marine/marauders.

So while it is possible it isn't always viable which is ok, it depends a lot on scouting as well.

On October 03 2011 08:20 aksfjh wrote:


You just broke PvP again. Try again.