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On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen.
cool so he got out played?
too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals
but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch
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On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch
Please elaborate
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On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch
At this point you obviously are just trolling. I'm giving you numbers and logical arguments and you keep coming back with nothing but whine.
There's a difference between being outplayed and losing because you're forced into an easily counterable composition by game design.
Also, not getting into the finals of 2 tournaments is by no means a proper indication of balance.
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On January 06 2016 01:41 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch At this point you obviously are just trolling. I'm giving you numbers and logical arguments and you keep coming back with nothing but whine. There's a difference between being outplayed and losing because you're forced into an easily counterable composition by game design. Also, not getting into the finals of 2 tournaments is by no means a proper indication of balance.
Archon-chargelot-immortal walks over lurker based compositions. If lurkers allow zerg to bank gas for mutas, that composition destroys lurkers --> zerg can´t bank gas --> Toss wins. Here is a logical argument that shows that toss should have no problem against muta´s.
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I don't buy your arguments Dino. It comes down to Protoss losing when they lose their army, which is nothing new, nothing specific about mutas and not even anything specific about zerg. That's how tech deathballing works, when you lose your tech units the cardhouse falls and it can be observed for years with Protoss vs bio in the same way when you have lost all your robo units and the remax comes down to bio vs gateway.
Edit: also with most forms of Mechplay in TvT and TvZ.
The problem I see with mutas is that their midgame viability makes it very hard for a protoss to get more than one robo going, which leads to a distinctive lack of counters against lurkers and ultras in the mid- and lategame. In longer PvZs it always feels like Protoss is a step behind where they would need to be because they have to open overly cautiously due to the spire possibility and then play tech catchup all game long with zerg setting the pace.
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It is so strange to watch a balance discussion not involving Terran...
Anyway, this discussion regarding Mutalisks is rather silly. The solution to preventing the Mutalisk death flock from being amassed is to either kill him before Zerg does so, or constantly pressure the Zerg at the front, like in HotS TvZ, which forces Zerg to make units and thus deplete his gas bank OR distort his minerals-to-gas ratio, which is what happened in HotS TvZ when both sides would often float a lot of gas, but few minerals. Don't Protoss players have plenty of 2-3 bases pressure builds like Blink-based attacks with Sentries and now the Adept? As far as I can tell Blink pressure builds after the SH nerf were highly popular and effective.
Furthermore, I know this is will not be taken seriously... but please don't cite Aligulac statistics as proof of balance, as since the game is balanced for the highest level (Code S), and we currently have a dearth of GSL and SSL games to judge from, balance is still rather unclear as of now
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On January 06 2016 01:41 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch At this point you obviously are just trolling. I'm giving you numbers and logical arguments and you keep coming back with nothing but whine. There's a difference between being outplayed and losing because you're forced into an easily counterable composition by game design. Also, not getting into the finals of 2 tournaments is by no means a proper indication of balance.
If Zerg was OP, it would have been more successful in the last two major tourneys
You refusing to accept that doesn't make it not true.
If a Zerg has enough gas to make enough lurkers to matter and then do a full muta switch you just suck. It's also funny that you'd claim that stats which counter your beliefs don't matter, but then repeatedly cite a single game.
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On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch
What are these 2 major tournaments where Zerg did bad, you keep talking about?
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On January 06 2016 03:21 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch What are these 2 major tournaments where Zerg did bad, you keep talking about?
Did bad = didn't win.
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On January 06 2016 03:21 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch What are these 2 major tournaments where Zerg did bad, you keep talking about?
Zerg got bodied in both GSL and nation wars
In fact I don't think Zerg even made it past the top 16 in GSL? Certainly weren't in the finals for nation wars either.
If Zerg was so OP they would have had a better presence. The simple fact is that Zerg isn't OP and we'll see that shake out here pretty soon despite the whining of posters like dinomight
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Your argument is a single game of Hydra vs MLord since you are talking about NW finals?
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On January 06 2016 04:38 Tenks wrote:
Your argument is a single game of Hydra vs MLord since you are talking about NW finals?
He is probably talking about Mlord vs. Finland also.
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On January 06 2016 04:37 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 03:21 keglu wrote:On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch What are these 2 major tournaments where Zerg did bad, you keep talking about? Zerg got bodied in both GSL and nation wars In fact I don't think Zerg even made it past the top 16 in GSL? Certainly weren't in the finals for nation wars either. If Zerg was so OP they would have had a better presence. The simple fact is that Zerg isn't OP and we'll see that shake out here pretty soon despite the whining of posters like dinomight
There was no major GSL tournament. There were 2 GSL pre-season tournaments giving 1 spot each to actual tournament (both won by Protoss). In total in these 2 qualifiers:
PvZ 52–75 (40.94%)
TvZ 43–53 (44.79%)
Nation wars was team torunaments, so there were nations in finals and not races.
If you wan to be precise 1Z, 1P and 2T played in the finals.
Total winrates for Nations War
PvZ 28–31 (47.46%)
TvZ 28–19 (59.57%)
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We're talking about GSL qualifiers :
TY- Soulkey 2 - 0
Bunny - Life 2 -1
Dear - rogue 2 - 0
jjakji - Solar 2-1
Forte - True 2- 0
Corsair cups 3 :
ByuN - Solar 2 -1
True - EJK : 0 - 2
Byun- Soulkey 3-2
Corsair cups 5 :
Patience - true 3- 2
Not really some bad players, and why if their race is OP when don't win everything ?
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NW win rates are somewhat suspect to use since there were so, so many one-sided matches and clear underdog matches
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On January 06 2016 05:08 Tyrhanius wrote:
We're talking about GSL qualifiers :
TY- Soulkey 2 - 0
Bunny - Life 2 -1
Dear - rogue 2 - 0
jjakji - Solar 2-1
Forte - True 2- 0
Corsair cups 3 :
ByuN - Solar 2 -1
True - EJK : 0 - 2
Byun- Soulkey 3-2
Corsair cups 5 :
Patience - true 3- 2
Not really some bad players, and why if their race is OP when don't win everything ?
Becasue op usually means winning 55-60% of games and not 100%
Also TvZ seems fine, PvZ is problematic.
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I can't believe <race> did not do <result> at the <event> we need to <nerf/buff> the OBVIOUS <unit/upgrade/building> that is causing this issue!
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On January 06 2016 01:41 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch At this point you obviously are just trolling. I'm giving you numbers and logical arguments and you keep coming back with nothing but whine. There's a difference between being outplayed and losing because you're forced into an easily counterable composition by game design. Also, not getting into the finals of 2 tournaments is by no means a proper indication of balance.
I have a suggestion for you. instead of complaining about whine how about replying to the counter arguments instead? There is some on the thread.
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On January 06 2016 04:37 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 03:21 keglu wrote:On January 06 2016 01:26 Merkmerk wrote:On January 06 2016 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On January 06 2016 00:40 Merkmerk wrote:
Lol again the infinite gas zergs - guess I forgot to get that option at Zerg skill
Why not just go Templar archon carrier disruptor void Ray?
Oh that's right because it costs gas. When you whiners act like 2k gas comes banked easy for a 20 Muta switch or 'just go ultras' you're proving your bronze level status
If that is happening in your games you deserve to lose for letting your opponent get a huge Econ uncontested
Lurkers cost a lot of gas. The research takes a while. You can't have lurkers and Muta switch and hive and ultras and upgrades at the same time
Sounds like y'all are just getting outplayed sry I just explained to you exactly how Zerg banks the gas for a Muta switch. There are several pro games to prove it as well. I'm not at home right now but look up Solar vs Parting from the first LotV tournament and you'll see exactly that. Parting goes Disruptors, to deal with the ground army, Solar makes Mutas and wins. You're not even debating balance right now... you're saying that things that happened don't happen. cool so he got out played? too bad that didn't work for any of the zergs in the past two major tourneys, since zergs didn't even make it to the finals but please tell us more about how zerg is OP and should get nerfed more because you don't like getting outplayed with a muta switch What are these 2 major tournaments where Zerg did bad, you keep talking about? Zerg got bodied in both GSL and nation wars In fact I don't think Zerg even made it past the top 16 in GSL? Certainly weren't in the finals for nation wars either. If Zerg was so OP they would have had a better presence. The simple fact is that Zerg isn't OP and we'll see that shake out here pretty soon despite the whining of posters like dinomight
GSL? Which results are you talking about?
Preseason week 1: 3/8 zerg in quarterfinals, 2/4 zerg in semifinals, and finals was PvZ. No Terran's advanced past quarterfinals.
Preseason week 2: 2/8 zerg in quarterfinals, none advanced past that.
Week 1 was better for Zerg, Week 2 was better for Terran, and Protoss was well-represented either way. Distribution in the Top 16 for both weeks was pretty balanced though.
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Statistics from Ro16 at one tournament or who won the last two tournaments are not really the way to measure balance.
There's an any given Sunday effect that has to be eliminated by using a very large sample size. Maybe Soulkey's fire alarm went off that day in the middle of the night and he didn't get a good night's sleep. Maybe it was slightly cold in the room and TRUE was off his game. There are many other reasons BESIDES balance why certain results happen. A large sample size is more likely to weed those out, because you'd expect that random things impact all players similarly.
So you can look at the distribution on the ladder, across thousands of people. You can look at all the results from all the tournament games since the beginning of LotV accumulated. Things like that make sense.
Maybe what happened in the most recent tournament is that Zergs got complacent and Protosses figured out ways to win. I can tell you from my own ladder experience that A LOT of the Zergs I play are overly greedy because Protoss players hadn't figured out how to properly punish a 3 hatch before pool and that just... became the norm. So maybe yeah at the most recent tournament Zergs did slightly worse.
Also, I don't think enough emphasis is being put on HOW they're winning. For me, I can't win a single game that isn't a 2 base timing attack (with which I have a really high win rate). Do we really want to go back to WoL "kill them before they get there" gameplay?
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EPT
