|
On January 13 2016 01:35 g2s wrote:
ZvT problems:
Scouting prelair is still that hero overlord who sees a reactored factory and a starport. In WoL that could mean: marine, hellion, medivacs. In LOTV it could be that or a hellbat push or widow mines and how about a liberator instead of that medivac?
Also on some maps just bringing a liberator behind a mineral line in a good position is too easy for the guaranteed damage / delaying of mining.
Main problem: Larvanerf makes going mutalingbling much harder by punishing poor mechanics while going roach/ravager lets terran decide the pace for the rest of the game.
I agree with all of this, the Liberator needs a nerf to it's ground mode damage, or it at least needs a nerf to it's anti air abilities, the unit flat out doesn't even have a real exploitable weakness, on maps like Orbital Shipyard with tons of dead space they require way more effort to stop then to produce two of them for guaranteed mineral line damage at the very least.
I feel like the larvae problem does what it was intended to do however which is make Zergs' build macro hatches.
|
On January 13 2016 01:57 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 01:35 g2s wrote:
ZvT problems:
Scouting prelair is still that hero overlord who sees a reactored factory and a starport. In WoL that could mean: marine, hellion, medivacs. In LOTV it could be that or a hellbat push or widow mines and how about a liberator instead of that medivac?
Also on some maps just bringing a liberator behind a mineral line in a good position is too easy for the guaranteed damage / delaying of mining.
Main problem: Larvanerf makes going mutalingbling much harder by punishing poor mechanics while going roach/ravager lets terran decide the pace for the rest of the game. I agree with all of this, the Liberator needs a nerf to it's ground mode damage, or it at least needs a nerf to it's anti air abilities, the unit flat out doesn't even have a real exploitable weakness, on maps like Orbital Shipyard with tons of dead space they require way more effort to stop then to produce two of them for guaranteed mineral line damage at the very least. I feel like the larvae problem does what it was intended to do however which is make Zergs' build macro hatches.
If you nerf liberators, terran will literally go extinct.
|
On January 13 2016 02:01 GreenHealing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 01:57 Beelzebub1 wrote:On January 13 2016 01:35 g2s wrote:
ZvT problems:
Scouting prelair is still that hero overlord who sees a reactored factory and a starport. In WoL that could mean: marine, hellion, medivacs. In LOTV it could be that or a hellbat push or widow mines and how about a liberator instead of that medivac?
Also on some maps just bringing a liberator behind a mineral line in a good position is too easy for the guaranteed damage / delaying of mining.
Main problem: Larvanerf makes going mutalingbling much harder by punishing poor mechanics while going roach/ravager lets terran decide the pace for the rest of the game. I agree with all of this, the Liberator needs a nerf to it's ground mode damage, or it at least needs a nerf to it's anti air abilities, the unit flat out doesn't even have a real exploitable weakness, on maps like Orbital Shipyard with tons of dead space they require way more effort to stop then to produce two of them for guaranteed mineral line damage at the very least. I feel like the larvae problem does what it was intended to do however which is make Zergs' build macro hatches. If you nerf liberators, terran will literally go extinct.
Other buffs are fine or other nerfs, personally I'd be more then fine with a PB nerf if mass air wasn't such a snowball problem against Zerg. I'm not saying nerf the Liberator and leave Terran out to dry, perhaps buff the Cyclone into viability?
|
I don't think nerfing liberators will make terran "go extinct". These things are a staple in TvP (where it's basically OP, since the only good protoss anti air is other air units... or storm?) and against Zergs who go Muta/Ling/Bane, which is kinda weak imo because of the larva nerf and because libs own mutas.
I think korean terrans rather go for siege tanks against zergs who use roach/ravager because with tank/medivac you can dodge some of the bile shots, while libs just get rekt.
|
Solution that will save the game, and esports as a whole:
Redesign cyclone
- price tag 100/100
- no tech lab
- range 6
- "lock on" ability from armory, sends thermal guided missile onto target dealing moderate splash damage(raven seeker missile could be removed)
- 170hp
|
On January 13 2016 02:13 Salteador Neo wrote:
I don't think nerfing liberators will make terran "go extinct". These things are a staple in TvP (where it's basically OP, since the only good protoss anti air is other air units... or storm?) and against Zergs who go Muta/Ling/Bane, which is kinda weak imo because of the larva nerf and because libs own mutas.
I think korean terrans rather go for siege tanks against zergs who use roach/ravager because with tank/medivac you can dodge some of the bile shots, while libs just get rekt.
See this is where I'm at as well, how is it Liberators which are holding ZvT together or any Terran match up, bio is strong as hell with the new economy changes, and Ghosts can riggidy wreck a tier 3 army with steady shot or whatever.
I'm more salty that it can pretty much 1v1 Corruptors, how long must it be highlighted that Zerg anti air totally sucks ass? Yea PB is OP but that's from a 200 gas Hive Tech unit, theres alot of air coming out until that time.
|
Here's what I'd change. Note this is just minor tweaks not a whole game redesign. I have serious issues with things like the economy and some of the units but those aren’t changing at this point.
Protoss:
-Chrono boost back to the old one. It rewards planning better and is more flexible in its usage. Also helps with tech transitions to keep up with Zerg.
-Increase Photon Overcharge energy requirement to 50 and keep the damage the same but just a little bit longer, maybe from 11 seconds to 15 or so
-Reduce warpgate research by 5-10 seconds.
-Increase the cool down on the Adept shade ability by a few seconds OR damage reduced by 1 vs light (so they 3 shot marines before combat shields and SCVs)
-Increase regular adept movement speed
-Buff Colossus damage towards what it was in HotS (maybe a little less) or include a small buff to +light damage in the upgrade (increased effectiveness against Lings, Hydras, Marines)
-Reduce Carrier build time to 60 and remove release interceptors
Terran:
-Reduce add-on build time by a few seconds
-Reduce Cyclone cost to 125/100 or so without changing stats OR keep same cost but allow them to be made without a tech lab
-Liberators require Armory
-Battlecruisers build a bit faster
Zerg:
-Reduce spine crawler build time (they take forever lol)
-Reduce Corrosive Bile's range to 8 from 9 so they need to take more risks casting it OR Make Ravagers smaller so splash damage is more effective against them, and make them armored
-Reduce Lurker den build time, as it's quite long right now
-Reduce Lurker range to 7.5 from 9 (so they can be outranged by Colossi, which are supposed to be siege units)
-Make Parasitic bomb not stack AND PUT IT ON THE INFESTOR
Rationale:
Protoss
Want to give increased flexibility against Zerg in the early game while nerfing Adepts a bit in early game PvT
Want to make Protoss less reliant on spamming PO and allow Terran to harass them more
Want to compensate by buffing Colos in the mid game since P won't be playing with such an econ advantage
Want to make Carrier transitions viable without making them OP (release interceptors is the culprit)
Terran
Some early game buffs to help stop the bop losses to 3 Protoss units
Slight buffs to the Cylcone to encourage their use defensively (I think they’re great against banshees and Warp Prisms etc.)
Liberator nerf to stop the ridiculous Liberator/Tank rushes and general Liberator behind the minerals nonsense
Battlecruiser buff because they don’t see enough play
Zerg
Basically, I want to see fewer Ravagers. The unit is good against everything. There should be more decision making by the Zerg. Roaches are already pretty versatile.
Lurkers take too long to get but they limit the players’ options too much when they’re on the field. A slight range nerf would help Protoss players fight them better with Storm or Colossi. I’d like to see Lurkers used in more situations and that’s not really possible right now.
Parasitic bomb does its damage way too fast for a human to be able to split. Nerfing the damage is irrelevant because one extra Viper will accomplish the same effect. This ability should obviously just not stack. Also, having PB on the Viper makes the unit counter too many things. I'd rather have it on the infestor where it's available earlier to the Zerg to defend against mass air, but doesn't create a scenario where Vipers counter "their own counter."
Summary:
TvP: buff Terran early so the game is played on even economic footing, then buff Protoss mid/late to compensate
PvZ: better ability to pressure the Zerg early on when he goes for a greedy build like 3 hatch, better transitioning options while limiting the OP carrier scenario
TvZ: fewer ravagers, in general. Less Liberator abuse.
Thoughts?
|
On January 13 2016 02:46 DinoMight wrote:
Here's what I'd change. Note this is just minor tweaks not a whole game redesign. I have serious issues with things like the economy and some of the units but those aren’t changing at this point.
Protoss:
-Chrono boost back to the old one. It rewards planning better and is more flexible in its usage. Also helps with tech transitions to keep up with Zerg.
-Increase Photon Overcharge energy requirement to 50 and keep the damage the same but just a little bit longer, maybe from 11 seconds to 15 or so
-Reduce warpgate research by 5-10 seconds.
-Increase the cool down on the Adept shade ability by a few seconds OR damage reduced by 1 vs light (so they 3 shot marines before combat shields and SCVs)
-Increase regular adept movement speed
-Buff Colossus damage towards what it was in HotS (maybe a little less) or include a small buff to +light damage in the upgrade (increased effectiveness against Lings, Hydras, Marines)
-Reduce Carrier build time to 60 and remove release interceptors
Terran:
-Reduce add-on build time by a few seconds
-Reduce Cyclone cost to 125/100 or so without changing stats OR keep same cost but allow them to be made without a tech lab
-Liberators require Armory
-Battlecruisers build a bit faster
Zerg:
-Reduce spine crawler build time (they take forever lol)
-Reduce Corrosive Bile's range to 8 from 9 so they need to take more risks casting it OR Make Ravagers smaller so splash damage is more effective against them, and make them armored
-Reduce Lurker den build time, as it's quite long right now
-Reduce Lurker range to 7.5 from 9 (so they can be outranged by Colossi, which are supposed to be siege units)
-Make Parasitic bomb not stack AND PUT IT ON THE INFESTOR
Rationale:
Protoss
Want to give increased flexibility against Zerg in the early game while nerfing Adepts a bit in early game PvT
Want to make Protoss less reliant on spamming PO and allow Terran to harass them more
Want to compensate by buffing Colos in the mid game since P won't be playing with such an econ advantage
Want to make Carrier transitions viable without making them OP (release interceptors is the culprit)
Terran
Some early game buffs to help stop the bop losses to 3 Protoss units
Slight buffs to the Cylcone to encourage their use defensively (I think they’re great against banshees and Warp Prisms etc.)
Liberator nerf to stop the ridiculous Liberator/Tank rushes and general Liberator behind the minerals nonsense
Battlecruiser buff because they don’t see enough play
Zerg
Basically, I want to see fewer Ravagers. The unit is good against everything. There should be more decision making by the Zerg. Roaches are already pretty versatile.
Lurkers take too long to get but they limit the players’ options too much when they’re on the field. A slight range nerf would help Protoss players fight them better with Storm or Colossi. I’d like to see Lurkers used in more situations and that’s not really possible right now.
Parasitic bomb does its damage way too fast for a human to be able to split. Nerfing the damage is irrelevant because one extra Viper will accomplish the same effect. This ability should obviously just not stack. Also, having PB on the Viper makes the unit counter too many things. I'd rather have it on the infestor where it's available earlier to the Zerg to defend against mass air, but doesn't create a scenario where Vipers counter "their own counter."
Summary:
TvP: buff Terran early so the game is played on even economic footing, then buff Protoss mid/late to compensate
PvZ: better ability to pressure the Zerg early on when he goes for a greedy build like 3 hatch, better transitioning options while limiting the OP carrier scenario
TvZ: fewer ravagers, in general. Less Liberator abuse.
Thoughts?
I'm of the opinion that buffing Terran might be a slightly better approach than nerfing Protoss, but it is without doubt that Protoss have a seemingly insurmountable advantage in the early game versus Terran. The match-up, now, is like old-schoold TvZ, in a way, where Zerg gets a free base, is always one base ahead, and the whole match centers around preventing the 4th base ... except that instead of Zerg, you have laser-shooting aliens raining AOE hell from every possible angle (and they have better upgrades).
I disagree that the Colossus needs a buff. Even the tiniest buff would make Colossus/Disruptor even more impossible to engage efficiently. I think Protoss players are still in shock that it is not longer the primary damage-dealing unit, but is now an a-move support splash unit.
I recommend removing the passive Blink buff the Warp Prism grants to all ground units. It's beyond absurd. And if you're going to keep it, then I must insist that when you destroy a Medivac, the units within just fall out unharmed ; ) What? Does that seem absurd to you?
I saw an Adept nerf proposal that made more sense than your extremely conservative -1 DMG buff. I can't remember exactly, but it was something like 10+1 vs light, but increase attack speed by [x] so that it's more effective versus Zerg, and less effective versus workers and Marines.
Can we please stop talking about nerfing the Liberator? We finally have a decent unit--and of course, it can't fucking move, can't attack building, has an on-screen warning for opponents, is single-target DPS, is expensive, and has already been nerfed hard--It's not showing itself to be dominate. It's a moderately decent harass unit, and the upgrade is buried in ultra-late game tech. Requiring an Armory, sure, but only if that means it pops with Advanced Ballistics. I'll take that deal all day long ; )
Instead of reducing add-on build time (I actually think they're tweaked fairly well), I think you remove the supply depot requirement for the barracks. Terran would be able to get units much faster. This could potentially make 3-rax reaper too strong vs. greedy Zergs. But Zergs that see it and build units would still be fine.
I would also like to see the ebay requirement removed from the Turret. It doesn't make sense, it's an unnecessary burden to an already heavily-burdened early game. Increase turret build time a little bit to compensate, but it is purely a defensive structure. It cannot be used in early-game cheese, so what gives? Is this ebay requirements strictly there so it's game-ending if Terran misses the ebay timing to multiple cheese plays (e.g., Oracle, DT, Banshees, some 2-base muta rushes)?
|
The game is pretty silly right now because of the Adept.
What do you think the game balance would look like if they made a balance test map where Adepts were not allowed in Warp Prisms and changed NOTHING else?
What would the win rates look like? How would the games play out?
From my experience any PvT that I don't open with adept harass I get absolutely slaughtered by mass bio everywhere. Seemingly endless amounts of MMM attacking me from all sides.
There's a reason all the pros are doing it.
If they remove the Engineering Bay requirement for Turrets Oracles and DTs will take a big hit. Sure right now nobody cares, but once you nerf Adepts, nerf Photon Overcharge, and make whatever other changes, Protoss might need those units...
Note: I feel like I have to point this out but I'm playing Terran these days.
Just... you know. For "Dinomight bias" reasons.
|
On January 13 2016 04:44 DinoMight wrote:
The game is pretty silly right now because of the Adept.
What do you think the game balance would look like if they made a balance test map where Adepts were not allowed in Warp Prisms and changed NOTHING else?
What would the win rates look like? How would the games play out?
From my experience any PvT that I don't open with adept harass I get absolutely slaughtered by mass bio everywhere. Seemingly endless amounts of MMM attacking me from all sides.
There's a reason all the pros are doing it.
Protoss is such badly designed race, that no matter how you slice it the race will be problematic as hell until major overhaul.
|
On January 13 2016 04:44 DinoMight wrote:
The game is pretty silly right now because of the Adept.
What do you think the game balance would look like if they made a balance test map where Adepts were not allowed in Warp Prisms and changed NOTHING else?
What would the win rates look like? How would the games play out?
From my experience any PvT that I don't open with adept harass I get absolutely slaughtered by mass bio everywhere. Seemingly endless amounts of MMM attacking me from all sides.
There's a reason all the pros are doing it.
If they remove the Engineering Bay requirement for Turrets Oracles and DTs will take a big hit. Sure right now nobody cares, but once you nerf Adepts, nerf Photon Overcharge, and make whatever other changes, Protoss might need those units...
Note: I feel like I have to point this out but I'm playing Terran these days.
Just... you know. For "Dinomight bias" reasons.
And are you able to win what Blizzard thinks is an "Even Match" (hovering over the points) as Terran vs. a Protoss? It is incredibly hard. Like, end-of-HotS-TvZ hard.
|
On January 13 2016 01:57 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 01:35 g2s wrote:
ZvT problems:
Scouting prelair is still that hero overlord who sees a reactored factory and a starport. In WoL that could mean: marine, hellion, medivacs. In LOTV it could be that or a hellbat push or widow mines and how about a liberator instead of that medivac?
Also on some maps just bringing a liberator behind a mineral line in a good position is too easy for the guaranteed damage / delaying of mining.
Main problem: Larvanerf makes going mutalingbling much harder by punishing poor mechanics while going roach/ravager lets terran decide the pace for the rest of the game. I agree with all of this, the Liberator needs a nerf to it's ground mode damage, or it at least needs a nerf to it's anti air abilities, the unit flat out doesn't even have a real exploitable weakness, on maps like Orbital Shipyard with tons of dead space they require way more effort to stop then to produce two of them for guaranteed mineral line damage at the very least. I feel like the larvae problem does what it was intended to do however which is make Zergs' build macro hatches.
Liberator is too strong for sure but the ground damage is what gives Terran a good counter to stuff like Ultralisks
It keeps them useful in small numbers, which lots of Terran units are all about, but it's the AA that makes them dumb in the way that they poop on both mutas and liberators - and in fact completely shut out mutas from the game for the most part
|
On January 13 2016 04:58 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 01:57 Beelzebub1 wrote:On January 13 2016 01:35 g2s wrote:
ZvT problems:
Scouting prelair is still that hero overlord who sees a reactored factory and a starport. In WoL that could mean: marine, hellion, medivacs. In LOTV it could be that or a hellbat push or widow mines and how about a liberator instead of that medivac?
Also on some maps just bringing a liberator behind a mineral line in a good position is too easy for the guaranteed damage / delaying of mining.
Main problem: Larvanerf makes going mutalingbling much harder by punishing poor mechanics while going roach/ravager lets terran decide the pace for the rest of the game. I agree with all of this, the Liberator needs a nerf to it's ground mode damage, or it at least needs a nerf to it's anti air abilities, the unit flat out doesn't even have a real exploitable weakness, on maps like Orbital Shipyard with tons of dead space they require way more effort to stop then to produce two of them for guaranteed mineral line damage at the very least. I feel like the larvae problem does what it was intended to do however which is make Zergs' build macro hatches. Liberator is too strong for sure but the ground damage is what gives Terran a good counter to stuff like Ultralisks It keeps them useful in small numbers, which lots of Terran units are all about, but it's the AA that makes them dumb in the way that they poop on both mutas and liberators - and in fact completely shut out mutas from the game for the most part
Nonsense. The Mutas don't have to engage the Liberators unless they have to. Just like the Mutas don't have to engage the Marines, or the Thors. The issue was that with the accelerated pace of play, Marines and Thors would be infinitely too slow to properly defend the Mutas, or a Muta switch, and still be able to survive the incredibly-powerful late-game tech of a Zerg.
The Liberator is fine. If anything, could probably use a super small buff to the time it takes to exit defender mode. At least make it possible to dodge a bile, even it it's hard. Requiring an accurate prediction seems a little rough.
And, Big J, if you're reading ... were you the one saying that the only reason the Defender Mode Circle was shown is because of the insane range? And it would be unfair to be getting hit by something in the fog of war (don't remember)? Is that still your argument? Because, if that's the case, I want my opponent's vision of the defender mode circle to go away unless they have vision of the Liberator and can click on it. Once Advanced Ballistics is finished, then you can get your warning back. Deal?
|
On January 13 2016 04:57 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 04:44 DinoMight wrote:
The game is pretty silly right now because of the Adept.
What do you think the game balance would look like if they made a balance test map where Adepts were not allowed in Warp Prisms and changed NOTHING else?
What would the win rates look like? How would the games play out?
From my experience any PvT that I don't open with adept harass I get absolutely slaughtered by mass bio everywhere. Seemingly endless amounts of MMM attacking me from all sides.
There's a reason all the pros are doing it.
If they remove the Engineering Bay requirement for Turrets Oracles and DTs will take a big hit. Sure right now nobody cares, but once you nerf Adepts, nerf Photon Overcharge, and make whatever other changes, Protoss might need those units...
Note: I feel like I have to point this out but I'm playing Terran these days.
Just... you know. For "Dinomight bias" reasons. And are you able to win what Blizzard thinks is an "Even Match" (hovering over the points) as Terran vs. a Protoss? It is incredibly hard. Like, end-of-HotS-TvZ hard.
If they don't Adept harass me I just mass marines and kill them Bomber style 
But if they Adept harass me then yeah I just eventually lose because I don't have enough stuff. And whenever I try to drop somewhere I get instantly annihilated by 5 Pylon overcharges and I can't even recover the dropping units.
Sometimes I say fuck it and I attack with Marine/Tank/Liberator off 1 base. I win those games pretty handily.
The interaction is so fucked. You can't make a unit that is a hard counter to Marines IN THE EARLY GAME (because it certainly isn't as the game progresses) simply because in the early game Marines are the only fucking thing Terran can make.
What we wanted is basically the OPPOSITE of the Adept. A combat unit from the Gateway that can fight stimmed bio... not something to cheese with before Stim finishes...
|
And, Big J, if you're reading ... were you the one saying that the only reason the Defender Mode Circle was shown is because of the insane range? And it would be unfair to be getting hit by something in the fog of war (don't remember)? Is that still your argument? Because, if that's the case, I want my opponent's vision of the defender mode circle to go away unless they have vision of the Liberator and can click on it. Once Advanced Ballistics is finished, then you can get your warning back. Deal?
I can't remember saying that, sorry. But it's not impossible that I did. 
But I think my argument these days would be twofold. The design part is that I like things that give you indications and warnings and delays before you take damage. Because such things are allowed to be stronger, because the opponent gets a greater opportunity to diminsh the effect through micromanagement. (ravager shots with visual and audio warnings, same for disruptor shots; siege animations of mines/tanks/liberators lurkers; "the circle" of liberators; the widow mine visual clues; the melee nature of banelings, fungal projectile, seeker missile)
But more than that I don't think you could just remove the circle and call it balanced. The range interaction of the liberator and other units is very razor edge and the circle can be placed sloppily or very effectively. It would be plain impossible to deal with liberators in the same way as currently. Even professionals would take like double the amount of hits and the stats would have to be adjusted accordingly.
Also I'm not sure how exact the facing of the liberator is, which is the only clue you'd still have. Instead of playing around a circle you might have to play around a pretty huge cone. Behold incredibly paint drawing incoming:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/K5dpewI.jpg)
|
To ppl say that the nerf to larvas effect zvt. What is the logic behind this, the mule is nerfed to compensate right?
|
Ling/bling being really larva intensive I guess.
|
With the Liberator doing as much damage as it does, I don't think it's reasonable to remove the circle.
The only way to play against it, especially when there are a lot of them, is to make sure that you're just out of reach at all times, or if you HAVE to engage, that you minimize damage. It differentiates between good players and bad players. If nobody can really know exactly where the circle is then everyone will just lose units to it.
|
On January 13 2016 05:19 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 04:58 Merkmerk wrote:On January 13 2016 01:57 Beelzebub1 wrote:On January 13 2016 01:35 g2s wrote:
ZvT problems:
Scouting prelair is still that hero overlord who sees a reactored factory and a starport. In WoL that could mean: marine, hellion, medivacs. In LOTV it could be that or a hellbat push or widow mines and how about a liberator instead of that medivac?
Also on some maps just bringing a liberator behind a mineral line in a good position is too easy for the guaranteed damage / delaying of mining.
Main problem: Larvanerf makes going mutalingbling much harder by punishing poor mechanics while going roach/ravager lets terran decide the pace for the rest of the game. I agree with all of this, the Liberator needs a nerf to it's ground mode damage, or it at least needs a nerf to it's anti air abilities, the unit flat out doesn't even have a real exploitable weakness, on maps like Orbital Shipyard with tons of dead space they require way more effort to stop then to produce two of them for guaranteed mineral line damage at the very least. I feel like the larvae problem does what it was intended to do however which is make Zergs' build macro hatches. Liberator is too strong for sure but the ground damage is what gives Terran a good counter to stuff like Ultralisks It keeps them useful in small numbers, which lots of Terran units are all about, but it's the AA that makes them dumb in the way that they poop on both mutas and liberators - and in fact completely shut out mutas from the game for the most part Nonsense. The Mutas don't have to engage the Liberators unless they have to. Just like the Mutas don't have to engage the Marines, or the Thors. The issue was that with the accelerated pace of play, Marines and Thors would be infinitely too slow to properly defend the Mutas, or a Muta switch, and still be able to survive the incredibly-powerful late-game tech of a Zerg. The Liberator is fine. If anything, could probably use a super small buff to the time it takes to exit defender mode. At least make it possible to dodge a bile, even it it's hard. Requiring an accurate prediction seems a little rough. And, Big J, if you're reading ... were you the one saying that the only reason the Defender Mode Circle was shown is because of the insane range? And it would be unfair to be getting hit by something in the fog of war (don't remember)? Is that still your argument? Because, if that's the case, I want my opponent's vision of the defender mode circle to go away unless they have vision of the Liberator and can click on it. Once Advanced Ballistics is finished, then you can get your warning back. Deal?
Liquidsnute - who is not known for complaining about balance - has said that the bunny build is too strong.
No reasonable player can say that Liberators are 'fine'. Mutas need to be able to engage something - that is why muta/ling/bling worked. It wasn't ling/bling + 6 mutas only for killing drops.
Right now TvZ is being played a lot like hots - with a mid game push made of marine / tank (or mine), which is best handled by ling/bling except liberators add a huge edge in the way that they completely zone out and shut down mutas. Corruptors fare better but are useless against the rest of the army.
The bunny build has no vulnerabilities. There is no rush you can do to beat it. You can't 12 pool it, you can't 3 ravager rush it, and you can't bane bust it.
It opens with reaper harass into hellion map control + harass into liberator harass into push. It has the flexibility to at any point counter any of the aforementioned zerg openings.
There's a reason the Terran win rate against Zerg skyrocketed with zero patch changes and the narrative which was incessant whining about 'woe is Terran' and 'Zerg is OP' suddenly changed overnight into 'TvZ is mostly fine' with an almost Orwellian attitude of 'TvZ has always been fine'
|
Zerg less larva, so need to produce hatcheries.
So less armee but in lategame this is quite uneffected since it will be the same kind of larva as before.
The mule nerf however makes it so Terran can never have the same income as before, therefore making terran have less macro structures throughout the whole game.
Am i missing something here?
@MerkMerk
Why cant zerg add some ravagers instead of mutas then?
Or go faster to hive, add ultras?
Why do zerg need ling/bane/muta in particular?
Why do it have to be the same as in Hots?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
