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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On December 21 2015 19:14 A_needle_jog wrote: All say Terran leading race ! Like I said ! Protoss a bit weak. They need to step up game and train harder  Bisu need to start SC2 so he can show people how to play good ! Full denial mode. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
In any case, the Protoss matchups look quite off balancewise at the moment. Mutas are a little ridiculous at the moment and ground PvZ only looks fair if Zerg never reaches Broodlords. PvT rushes seem to be very broken. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 21 2015 19:14 A_needle_jog wrote: All say Terran leading race ! Like I said ! Protoss a bit weak. They need to step up game and train harder Bisu need to start SC2 so he can show people how to play good ! I made summary for you for this 3 periods so you can rethink your statement PvT : 48,3% PvZ : 41,8% TvZ: 48,9% Based on stats from October-December PvZ seems to bo on level of TvZ in Broodlord/infestor era 3 years back. | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
nooo you don't understand. Balance is something fluid. It is not easy to understand with small mind. Look at map pool and LOTV new. If map change then balance change. If time progress then new tactics and people get better. You just look at % numbers and they are often wrong. It’s like taking a scoop out of the ocean with a cup and saying there are no such things as whales because there are none in my cup. Look at my previous post ! I said nerf Ravager and Ultralisk and buff stalker ! You don't say that now, but only insult me ! Looking at number can be mistake. If good zerg play against bad protoss and zerg win then that not imbalance. Game has flaws. Educate and look at bigger picture. Zerg is like kid in school that gets always beaten up by harassment. Then later he training training training and is strongest and smartest guy in college and life and Protoss and Terran still collection wellfare check unemployment each month ! We have a saying in Korea. Train and you get confident strength in mind. Complain and the doubt fills your soul. It basically means that you are the creator of your own luck | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On December 21 2015 19:44 A_needle_jog wrote: If good zerg play against bad protoss and zerg win then that not imbalance. The thing is, that those kind of observations are highly subjective and depend on balance. If for example Protoss is overpowered, even those players that only a-move will win and look kinda good while doing so. This is exactly what is happening with Zerg at the moment. Many bad players look like gods, because their race is too strong. Protoss/Terran players, while playing against Zerg, get trashed and look terrible because very few things really work vs that race. | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On December 21 2015 19:52 CheddarToss wrote: The thing is, that those kind of observations are highly subjective and depend on balance. If for example Protoss is overpowered, even those players that only a-move will win and look kinda good while doing so. This is exactly what is happening with Zerg at the moment. Many bad players look like gods, because their race is too strong. Protoss/Terran players, while playing against Zerg, get trashed and look terrible because very few things really work vs that race. Only beginning of addon In 5-6 months the good players all play and train enough again and win against the bad players. Look at Demuslim. I have never see him win a single map in 5 years of Starcraft and he managed to get out of groupstage in HSC !! In a couple of month he will be loser-boy again Same with Elazer. Addon too new and maps too bad. All in and cheese still strong. People don't know right timing. Zerg many weak points where Protoss and Terran can attack and exploit !! Maybe slight ravager nerf and hydra buff so better balance between the units But when looking at great picture. 3 big champions so far in LOTV. Solar Dreamhack - Zerg herO GSL - Protoss MMA HSC - Terran It is not so bad when chill back and look at it Nerf maps, Nerf adept and reaper. Nerf ravager and ultralisk and all good | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On December 21 2015 19:57 A_needle_jog wrote: Nerf maps, Nerf adept and reaper. Nerf ravager and ultralisk and all good You seem to ignore that herO, while being one of the best if not the best Protoss player currently, won thanks to the power of Adepts. Had Adepts been weaker, he would have probably died to a number of strong Zerg units, that come into play later on in the game: Ravager (when used in a Speedling/Roach/Ravager push), Muta (when used in the ridiculous Muta switch), Lurkers (these are deadly regardless of the situation), etc. Being a smart player, herO abused the strong Adept + upgrade timing and didn't let the game progress to the point where Zerg is too strong. He either ended the games with the timing or dealt crippling damage to Zerg eco, so that he could play out the game on equal terms. | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On December 21 2015 20:19 CheddarToss wrote: You seem to ignore that herO, while being one of the best if not the best Protoss player currently, won thanks to the power of Adepts. Had Adepts been weaker, he would have probably died to a number of strong Zerg units, that come into play later on in the game: Ravager (when used in a Speedling/Ravager push), Muta (when used in the ridiculous Muta switch), Lurkers (these are deadly regardless of the situation), etc. Being a smart player, herO abused the strong Adept + upgrade timing and didn't let the game progress to the point where Zerg is too strong. He either ended the games with the timing or dealt crippling damage to Zerg eco, so that he could play out the game on equal terms. You are right. I changed my mind. herO is really good player and should've win easier versus Life. It took him too long to win game! I did not see game from your perspective. Now I adjusted I think patch should look like following : Zerg: Ravager morph time + 10 seconds. Corrosive Bile damage nerf from 60 to 45 Lurker morph time + 20 seconds. Ultralisk upgrade - 2 armor Mutalisk increase build time + 15 seconds Queen Inject Larvae only spawn 2 additional Larvae. BroodLord morph Time + 10 seconds. Lurker burrow time + 4 seconds Protoss: Adept can change to position of ghost at any time Stalker increase movement speed Blink Resear time faster Phoenix + 1 range Carrier increase movement speed Pylon overcharge now do splash damage to small units like Zerglings. Warp prisom get + 4 armor when in pylon mode Hope you like my opinion better now How do we change terran?? | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On December 21 2015 19:44 A_needle_jog wrote: It basically means that you are the creator of your own luck That saying is popular everywhere :D Too bad most people deny it as loud as they can. | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On December 21 2015 20:28 A_needle_jog wrote: Dumb koreans why no nerf cracklings?!?You are right. I changed my mind. herO is really good player and should've win easier versus Life. It took him too long to win game! I did not see game from your perspective. Now I adjusted I think patch should look like following : Zerg: Ravager morph time + 10 seconds. Corrosive Bile damage nerf from 60 to 45 Lurker morph time + 20 seconds. Ultralisk upgrade - 2 armor Mutalisk increase build time + 15 seconds Queen Inject Larvae only spawn 2 additional Larvae. BroodLord morph Time + 10 seconds. Lurker burrow time + 4 seconds Protoss: Adept can change to position of ghost at any time Stalker increase movement speed Blink Resear time faster Phoenix + 1 range Carrier increase movement speed Pylon overcharge now do splash damage to small units like Zerglings. Warp prisom get + 4 armor when in pylon mode Hope you like my opinion better now How do we change terran?? They imba some little pylon splash won't help vs bw lings About terran, hmm Remove it? Then remove protoss too? Only one race so easy balance | ||
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stilt
France2736 Posts
Anyway, the problem I could see in the MU is the transition mutas, now that the ground zerg is pretty equal to the protoss, the versatility of the zerg race makes it delicate to handle for the toss, however, pheonix is still a super hardcounter so I don't think that the solution should come from this(btw, I struggle a lot vs stargate opener) so I don't know. A pretty strong overcharge at one pylon which can not share its action rayon could work or a buff for photon canon against air. The second concern could be the late game but honeslly, air toss is hard to reach but it is still extremely powerful so maybe the transition to a good air toss could be improved but no more than this please! For zvt, ravagers are a bit stupid, corosive bile deal to much damage against marines so maybe it should be reduce with the damages being upgrad-dependants... Anyway, roach/ravagers/infestors is not a very easy compo but it is still pretty boring to play it. I miss a lot the zvt of hots with MMMM vs ling/bling/mutas which involves a lot of unit micro from both sides, right now, the zerg gameplay is just about positionning and abilities spamming like the BL/infest, what a shame seriously, I am not enjoying it at all and well, I didn't play since about two week and I was pretty bored to play again a tvz, my favorite MU by far. I know a lot of terran complain about mutas but seriously, they made the MU pretty dynamic. I thought about make the turrets upgrads in the orbital command, like this, the Terran could defend more easily because well, I really dislike the design of the liberator which hardcounters way to much the mutas and is responsible of the state of the MU, with the flexibility of the drops, the terran gains an advantage which must be a bit compensated by a weaker ground than the zerg. Currently, the zerg army is too strong I think but it is not the core of the problem: the MU is becoming very dull without encouraging micro from both side with pretty fast little units fighting each others around all the map. | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On December 21 2015 19:57 A_needle_jog wrote: Only beginning of addon In 5-6 months the good players all play and train enough again and win against the bad players. Look at Demuslim. I have never see him win a single map in 5 years of Starcraft and he managed to get out of groupstage in HSC !! In a couple of month he will be loser-boy again Same with Elazer. Addon too new and maps too bad. All in and cheese still strong. People don't know right timing. Zerg many weak points where Protoss and Terran can attack and exploit !! Maybe slight ravager nerf and hydra buff so better balance between the units But when looking at great picture. 3 big champions so far in LOTV. Solar Dreamhack - Zerg herO GSL - Protoss MMA HSC - Terran It is not so bad when chill back and look at it Nerf maps, Nerf adept and reaper. Nerf ravager and ultralisk and all good MMA Said in HSC (if he plays a Protoss he´ll lose) MMA didnt play ANY Protoss player all tournament long. so imo TvP is still a problem for terran especially vs adepts. i hate it when people just go flat after who won the tournament without looking up how! But i still think the biggest problems right now are those ugly maps... | ||
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On December 21 2015 22:05 HugoBallzak wrote: HSC was all foreigners for the most part so it doesnt really count. I'd say It was all foreigners, none of the Koreans were from KeSPA so I wouldn't even glimpse on it, just spit upon it with disgust /s | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
Protoss/Zerg/Terran? What would you buff/nerf. I am intersted in your opinions | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On December 21 2015 22:17 A_needle_jog wrote: What would you guys change with Starcraft except for the maps? Protoss/Zerg/Terran? What would you buff/nerf. I am intersted in your opinions In general: * Make the big expensive units smaller and easier accessible. * Make positional play more important (positional units & abilities, highground advantage, etc) * Less focus on harassment (or alternatively add focus to defense) * More focus on support / defensive abilities rather then aggressive abilities targeted at enemies * Remove active abilities that were introduced for micro and APM spam and instead focus on movement micro and weapon timings * Change the economy to one of the models the community had developed * Make air units less powerful in general or improve G2A damage * Make units more versatile and favor soft counters instead of hard counters | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
He say : Ravager big nerf Zerglings big nerf Viper big nerf Pylon Overcharge change a bit and rework ladder system Maybe time to switch again | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 21 2015 23:57 Ghanburighan wrote: I've been following the discussion in this thread halfheartedly as what seems to be ignored the amount of flux in the scene. Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but we've seen fewer high level games of LotV than for example in the beginning of HotS. The game wasn't played as extensively at high level over the beta, and at the same time the entire economy was revamped, requiring a great deal more figuring out before we can decide the state of the game. Recall the 2010 meta of WoL. Even if we account for nerfs and different maps, I don't think the game was sufficiently figured out to properly assess balance then. So I'd advise caution with trying to figure out the state of balance now. And even though we should discuss and analyze results and mechanics thoroughly, I would avoid making actual judgments based on a few haphazard tournaments this early in the game's life span. The meta is still developing. I fully agree with your analysis and balance conclusion(s) for the longrun, but I have arguments in favor of patching now (and then in 2010): 1) We don't know how the balance will ultimately look like is an argument that swings both ways. So we might as well try to balance for the moment, which on average should have a better expectation than waiting anyways. The more a designer knows about the game, the better they can target solutions. Therefore any change made to the game after obvservations should on average yield an improvement to the somewhat arbitrary 1.0 state. 2) The meta is still unstable, targeting problems now before they become an accepted dynamic under the smokescreen of asymmetric design is still much easier to communicate than pseudo-removing the swarm host 2-years after release. 3) Players play the game now. It isn't very helpful for the popularity of the game if current problems are left untouched beyond a players exit from the playerbase. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On December 22 2015 00:24 Big J wrote: I fully agree with your analysis and balance conclusion(s) for the longrun, but I have arguments in favor of patching now (and then in 2010): 1) We don't know how the balance will ultimately look like is an argument that swings both ways. So we might as well try to balance for the moment, which on average should have a better expectation than waiting anyways. The more a designer knows about the game, the better they can target solutions. Therefore any change made to the game after obvservations should on average yield an improvement to the somewhat arbitrary 1.0 state. 2) The meta is still unstable, targeting problems now before they become an accepted dynamic under the smokescreen of asymmetric design is still much easier to communicate than pseudo-removing the swarm host 2-years after release. 3) Players play the game now. It isn't very helpful for the popularity of the game if current problems are left untouched beyond a players exit from the playerbase. I'd generally agree, as my statement really only applies towards a judgment of imbalance, rather than any consequent action. So, we might patch only to find out that we were premature in doing so, requiring a roll-back. But we all know blizzard never reverses a patch. So whatever we're advocating to be changed now will be changed forever. That being said, a PO nerf is probably good for the game in the long run regardless of balance for reasons that have been discussed to death. I wouldn't reduce the effectiveness of lings, though, without having very strong reasons for doing so, as lings are interesting units, fragile but fast and high damage if microed well. It would be great if they remained incredibly powerful in certain situations. *** Regarding point 3, do you think Flash, Rain, etc retiring is connected to the state of the game? | ||
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