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On December 20 2015 05:04 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:00 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 04:48 CheddarToss wrote:On December 20 2015 04:06 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 20 2015 04:04 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching HSC and the desperate, reckless strats being used vs Zerg by both Terrans and Protoss, it is obvious that Zerg is the much stronger race. I don't think that units are the problem. Zerg eco is just out of control in LotV. Play zerg and try. You are super wrong. Zerg eco is bad in LOTV, but late game units are strong  MY lotv balance list : - Too Strong : Adept Reaper Ravager Ultralisk Liberator - Too Weak: Thor Hydra Muta Stalker Void Ray Mutas are blatantly OP vs Protoss. People keep complaining in regards to Adepts, but Adepts don't shred units that are designed to counter them. Mutas on the other hand are often used to fight Stalkers head on. And very often they win. Are you sure Mutalisks themselves are inherently the problem, as opposed to how quickly Zerg amasses a death flock of them? Spire takes long time and getting gas aswell. If zerg build fast death flock of mutas then they don't have other gas units. Perfect timing window for Protoss to exploit !
We already had THAT kind of balance in SC2. "Kill him before he gets there." It didn't work, it was terrible for the game. Either Mutas or Zerg eco should be weaker.
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On December 20 2015 05:11 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:04 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 20 2015 05:00 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 04:48 CheddarToss wrote:On December 20 2015 04:06 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 20 2015 04:04 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching HSC and the desperate, reckless strats being used vs Zerg by both Terrans and Protoss, it is obvious that Zerg is the much stronger race. I don't think that units are the problem. Zerg eco is just out of control in LotV. Play zerg and try. You are super wrong. Zerg eco is bad in LOTV, but late game units are strong MY lotv balance list : - Too Strong : Adept Reaper Ravager Ultralisk Liberator - Too Weak: Thor Hydra Muta Stalker Void Ray Mutas are blatantly OP vs Protoss. People keep complaining in regards to Adepts, but Adepts don't shred units that are designed to counter them. Mutas on the other hand are often used to fight Stalkers head on. And very often they win. Are you sure Mutalisks themselves are inherently the problem, as opposed to how quickly Zerg amasses a death flock of them? Spire takes long time and getting gas aswell. If zerg build fast death flock of mutas then they don't have other gas units. Perfect timing window for Protoss to exploit ! We already had THAT kind of balance in SC2. "Kill him before he gets there." It didn't work, it was terrible for the game. Either Mutas or Zerg eco should be weaker.
Go play zerg on ladder against good player. If zerg eco is weaker then zerg is dead race. Believe me they already nerf larvae a lot.
btw Archon is very strong versus muta. Protoss has plenty
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On December 20 2015 04:04 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching HSC and the desperate, reckless strats being used vs Zerg by both Terrans and Protoss, it is obvious that Zerg is the much stronger race. I don't think that units are the problem. Zerg eco is just out of control in LotV.
The fact that Zerg can 3 hatch before pool and Protoss/Terran can't even 1 gate or 1 rax expand safely on half the ladder maps doesn't help this at all. And then you have Prion Terraces, where you can basically concede vs. Zerg immediately because nothing beats fast expo to gold base.
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On December 20 2015 05:29 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 04:04 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching HSC and the desperate, reckless strats being used vs Zerg by both Terrans and Protoss, it is obvious that Zerg is the much stronger race. I don't think that units are the problem. Zerg eco is just out of control in LotV. The fact that Zerg can 3 hatch before pool and Protoss/Terran can't even 1 gate or 1 rax expand safely on half the ladder maps doesn't help this at all. And then you have Prion Terraces, where you can basically concede vs. Zerg immediately because nothing beats fast expo to gold base.
Please try 3 hatch before pool against terran :D :D :D
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On December 20 2015 05:23 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:11 CheddarToss wrote:On December 20 2015 05:04 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 20 2015 05:00 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 04:48 CheddarToss wrote:On December 20 2015 04:06 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 20 2015 04:04 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching HSC and the desperate, reckless strats being used vs Zerg by both Terrans and Protoss, it is obvious that Zerg is the much stronger race. I don't think that units are the problem. Zerg eco is just out of control in LotV. Play zerg and try. You are super wrong. Zerg eco is bad in LOTV, but late game units are strong MY lotv balance list : - Too Strong : Adept Reaper Ravager Ultralisk Liberator - Too Weak: Thor Hydra Muta Stalker Void Ray Mutas are blatantly OP vs Protoss. People keep complaining in regards to Adepts, but Adepts don't shred units that are designed to counter them. Mutas on the other hand are often used to fight Stalkers head on. And very often they win. Are you sure Mutalisks themselves are inherently the problem, as opposed to how quickly Zerg amasses a death flock of them? Spire takes long time and getting gas aswell. If zerg build fast death flock of mutas then they don't have other gas units. Perfect timing window for Protoss to exploit ! We already had THAT kind of balance in SC2. "Kill him before he gets there." It didn't work, it was terrible for the game. Either Mutas or Zerg eco should be weaker. Go play zerg on ladder against good player. If zerg eco is weaker then zerg is dead race. Believe me they already nerf larvae a lot. btw Archon is very strong versus muta. Protoss has plenty
A lot what? Protoss mechanic was nerfed the most. And Archons do nothing against Mutas. Unless the Zerg player decided to a-move his Mutas.
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On December 20 2015 05:56 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:23 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 20 2015 05:11 CheddarToss wrote:On December 20 2015 05:04 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 20 2015 05:00 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 04:48 CheddarToss wrote:On December 20 2015 04:06 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 20 2015 04:04 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching HSC and the desperate, reckless strats being used vs Zerg by both Terrans and Protoss, it is obvious that Zerg is the much stronger race. I don't think that units are the problem. Zerg eco is just out of control in LotV. Play zerg and try. You are super wrong. Zerg eco is bad in LOTV, but late game units are strong MY lotv balance list : - Too Strong : Adept Reaper Ravager Ultralisk Liberator - Too Weak: Thor Hydra Muta Stalker Void Ray Mutas are blatantly OP vs Protoss. People keep complaining in regards to Adepts, but Adepts don't shred units that are designed to counter them. Mutas on the other hand are often used to fight Stalkers head on. And very often they win. Are you sure Mutalisks themselves are inherently the problem, as opposed to how quickly Zerg amasses a death flock of them? Spire takes long time and getting gas aswell. If zerg build fast death flock of mutas then they don't have other gas units. Perfect timing window for Protoss to exploit ! We already had THAT kind of balance in SC2. "Kill him before he gets there." It didn't work, it was terrible for the game. Either Mutas or Zerg eco should be weaker. Go play zerg on ladder against good player. If zerg eco is weaker then zerg is dead race. Believe me they already nerf larvae a lot. btw Archon is very strong versus muta. Protoss has plenty A lot what? Protoss mechanic was nerfed the most. And Archons do nothing against Mutas. Unless the Zerg player decided to a-move his Mutas.
just try. Balance is really hard between drones and units. just try it yourself. you will see ^^
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Here is my dream patch. It's mostly from the perspective of Terran MUs, but I made a few adjustments for PvZ. Primary areas of focus:
1) All-in/pressure strength of P/Z, especially vs T
2) Terran composition variety, including but not limited to Mech
3) Lots of new ways to deal with air units, for all races
4) Cutting down strength of A+move compositions, rewarding lots of multitasking and micro
ZERG
Ultralisk - goal is to weaken the Ultralisk when A+moved, but keep it very strong when controlled.
- Chitinous Plating no longer grants armor, grants 150 HP instead.
- New Hive upgrade, Queen's "Transfusion" ability now costs 25 energy down from 50.
Baneling - goal is to bring back L/B/M without increasing potency of early game Bane busts
- New Baneling Nest upgrade, requires Lair, Banelings take 0.5 supply down from 1
Viper - goal is to make it less of a hard counter to air
- Parasitic Bomb paints target unit green for 2 seconds before triggering, providing opportunity for counter micro; damage decrease from 90 to 40
Hydralisk - goal is to make them Zerg's primary anti-air
- Buff Hydralisk anti-air from 12+1 to 18+1
Nydus Worm - goal is to nix coin flip all-in builds, and reward multitasking midgame harassment
- Cost down from 100/100 to 75/25, Nydus Worm requires Creep and cannot be Transfused
PROTOSS
Photon Overcharge - goal is to make Protoss attackable
- Energy cost increased to 50 from 25
Adept - goal is to make them weaker across the board, both as pressure units and as A+moved army units.
- Attack down from 10+13 vs Light to 10+10 vs Light (three-shotting Marines and workers instead of two-shotting)
- HP down from 80/70 to 50/70
Stalker - goal is to make Stalker a better answer to Mutalisks, Brood Lords, and Liberators, and even more rewarding of micro than they are now.
- Anti-air up from 10+4 vs Armored to 20+4 vs Armored
- HP down/shields up from 80/80 to 60/100
Colossus - goal is to make A+move Colossus even worse than it is now, while making controlled Colossus as strong as it was in HotS, but much more versatile, especially versus Liberators.
- Attack damage down from 12x2 to 9x2
- HP down/shields up from 200/150 to 100/200
- New ability, "Manual Override." Player selects two points on the ground. A red targeting line appears between those points for 2 seconds. After 2 seconds, the Colossus attacks all units on that line (regardless of range, so retreating Colossus can still fire). Damage dealt is inversely proportional to the distance between the two points. Snipe a single Siege Tank from full health. one-shot four Marines standing next to each other, or take a chunk out of 10 Marines, but be prepared for counter micro.
- New ability, "Vertical Override." Colossus attacks air instead of ground.
TERRAN
Ghost - goal is to make Terrans want to get them in Z/P midgame, and to make them good anti-air units vs Brood Lords.
- EMP now provides a 3 second 50% movement speed debuff to all afflicted units.
- Steady Targeting buff from dealing 170 damage to dealing 190 damage (so they still three-shot upgraded Ultralisks), range increase from 10 to 15 to help snipe HTs and stay out of Fungal/Broodling range.
Reaper - goal is to make Reapers worse as pressure units and better as midgame support units for Mech or vs LBM
- KD8 Charge changed from automatic detonation and 7 second cooldown to manual detonation, 25 second duration, and 25 second cooldown. The KD8 Charge provides no vision.
Siege Tank - goal is to make them better at holding Roach/Ravager all-ins, and slightly better versus Roach/Ultralisks compositions overall
- Siege damage up from 35+15 to 35+35 vs armored
- Medivac drop attack delay from 1.7 seconds to 2.5 seconds
Missile Turret - goal is to make them easier to access in case of proxy Oracle/fast DTs shenanigans
- No Engineering Bay requirement
Thor - goal is to make them better meatshields against low-range Zerg armies.
- New passive ability: dead Thors do not instantly disappear, but remain on the battlefield as 200 HP burning (like damaged structure) husks that provide no vision.
Cyclone - goal is to make them more massable but at the cost of being weaker vs non-armored ground units
- Cost down from 150/150, Tech Lab, to 150/75, no Tech Lab
- Ground Lock-On damage changed from 200(+200)/400(+400) with upgrade, to 150(+250)/300(+500)
Obviously I might have screwed something up for ZvP that I'm not aware of, or not unscrewed something that is very screwed right now. This is just a starting point for the sort of things I'd like to see tested.
edit: added increased Tank drop delay, copy/paste fail. On a side note, I'm not super happy with the Colossus revamp because there's a lot of overlap with the Disruptor. P really doesn't need 3 ground-based AOE options. But the overlap already exists, I don't really know what to do about that without overhauling the unit's concept completely.
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that would make terran imba lol
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On December 20 2015 09:38 jinjin5000 wrote:
that would make terran imba lol
What makes you say that?
3/16 players in SSL are Terran, and the best one of them, INnoVation, lost his TvP to a C-list Korean and got in off the back of 2 TvTs. As I see it, Terran needs serious buffs just to become competitive. I tried to address Terran weaknesses while providing Z/P new ways to punish (LBM buffed from HotS, Stalker and Colossus better against Liberators).
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On December 20 2015 09:41 pure.Wasted wrote:What makes you say that? 3/16 players in SSL are Terran, and the best one of them, INnoVation, lost his TvP to a C-list Korean and got in off the back of 2 TvTs. As I see it, Terran needs serious buffs just to become competitive. I tried to address Terran weaknesses while providing Z/P new ways to punish (LBM buffed from HotS, Stalker and Colossus better against Liberators).
and your suggestions are just pure over the top.
Anyways I think just having small delay and green indicator for para bomb will suffice. 40 damage is a joke even if it stacks.
Cyclones problem really stems alot from lock on mechanic. Its either too cost efficient or useless.
Siege tank doing 35+35. Are you kidding? Maybe if its single target boost but thats huge buff.
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On December 20 2015 10:19 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 09:41 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 20 2015 09:38 jinjin5000 wrote:
that would make terran imba lol What makes you say that? 3/16 players in SSL are Terran, and the best one of them, INnoVation, lost his TvP to a C-list Korean and got in off the back of 2 TvTs. As I see it, Terran needs serious buffs just to become competitive. I tried to address Terran weaknesses while providing Z/P new ways to punish (LBM buffed from HotS, Stalker and Colossus better against Liberators). and your suggestions are just pure over the top. Anyways I think just having small delay and green indicator for para bomb will suffice. 40 damage is a joke even if it stacks.
Air units should not be the counter to air units. Parasitic Bomb should not be strong, it should be an emergency "oh fuck I need to buy 40 seconds to get a bunch of Hydras" switch.
Cyclones problem really stems alot from lock on mechanic. Its either too cost efficient or useless.
You're right in theory, but in practice it's possible to make the ground attack weak enough that it doesn't really matter, which is what I was going for. I want to make it easier to pump out a couple of purely defensive Cyclones, and then very easy to transition into mass Cyclone if your opponent goes mass air.
Siege tank doing 35+35. Are you kidding? Maybe if its single target boost but thats huge buff.
And what units are affected by the +35? Roaches and Ultralisks, that's it. Not Drones, not Lings, not Banes, not Hydras, not even Ravagers. All this does is encourage LBM in the midgame, which, again, I buffed from HotS. I'd much rather watch LBM+Ravager than Roach/Ravager, and I don't think I'm alone.
Hey, it's possible that you're right and this would skew the ratio too much in favor of Terran, in which case we just do another patch. That's how it works. The point of these suggestions isn't just to flip the numbers around, it's to phase out shitty playstyles and reward the ones that require multitasking and mechanical skill. I'm not saying I solve SC2 with these changes, it's just what I think is worth trying to see what we end up with.
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On December 20 2015 10:19 jinjin5000 wrote:
Siege tank doing 35+35. Are you kidding? Maybe if its single target boost but thats huge buff.
For Siege Tanks to improve, they would at the very least need a +10 damage buff for their tank shots to improve against whatever they're targeting. That means the bare minimum is 35+25 to reduce the amount of tank shots to kill a target by 1.
35+35 is actually not unreasonable, but upgrades should be accounted for and they would more or less give the same effect.
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On December 20 2015 09:41 pure.Wasted wrote:What makes you say that?
Your proposals for the Ghost are silly. That unit would single handedly make PvT extremely Terran favoured. Especially in combination with those Protoss nerfs (less health, more shields) you are proposing. Yes, you read that right, having less health and more shields is a serious nerf in PvT.
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Siege tanks do not need a buff. They are very potent in certain terrain, and strong if used correctly. Not all units have to universally useful in every scenario.
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On December 20 2015 17:35 parkufarku wrote:
Siege tanks do not need a buff. They are very potent in certain terrain, and strong if used correctly. Not all units have to universally useful in every scenario.
True, but Siege Tanks should be universally useful in every scenario.
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On December 20 2015 09:41 pure.Wasted wrote:What makes you say that? 3/16 players in SSL are Terran, and the best one of them, INnoVation, lost his TvP to a C-list Korean and got in off the back of 2 TvTs. As I see it, Terran needs serious buffs just to become competitive. I tried to address Terran weaknesses while providing Z/P new ways to punish (LBM buffed from HotS, Stalker and Colossus better against Liberators).
With those ghosts why would you do anything else but get a third of the bases and turtle behind mass PF ghost turret until the map mines out vs z
with 15 range it can never be hit with fungal broodlings and PF/turret kill everything else
ALso your buff to LBM is to make banelings cost 0.5 supply, which they already do? top 3 game knowledge right there.
Let's not even mention that the hardest part about LBM is surviving the 2/2 push because of how much the larva reduction limits your production.
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On December 20 2015 17:40 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 17:35 parkufarku wrote:
Siege tanks do not need a buff. They are very potent in certain terrain, and strong if used correctly. Not all units have to universally useful in every scenario. True, but Siege Tanks should be universally useful in every scenario.
I got it.
best possible change to make tanks useful.
Liberator: change name to siege tank
Remove siege tank from factory.
TADA
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On December 20 2015 17:47 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 17:40 WrathSCII wrote:On December 20 2015 17:35 parkufarku wrote:
Siege tanks do not need a buff. They are very potent in certain terrain, and strong if used correctly. Not all units have to universally useful in every scenario. True, but Siege Tanks should be universally useful in every scenario. I got it. best possible change to make tanks useful. Liberator: change name to siege tank Remove siege tank from factory. TADA
I got a better one:
Remove Liberator AG
Tanks Overkill
+10 damage (vs all)
+malestorm rounds (+20 damage vs massive single target, splash unaffected)
+cost reduce to 150/100/3
+transformation time reduce to 3 seconds from 4 seconds.
+Tanks attack speed reduced to 3 from 2.8
TADA
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On December 20 2015 17:35 parkufarku wrote:
Siege tanks do not need a buff. They are very potent in certain terrain, and strong if used correctly. Not all units have to universally useful in every scenario.
Siege tanks do need a buff (and a nerf, remove stupid pickup).
But that was about the only part that makes sense in that post. Okay, a few more could be considered, but even as a terran I can see it is ridiculous. PB needs a nerf, but that nerf is seriously over the top for example. Or 15 range boosted ghost snipes. And I would want one small error to be less of an issue. So not one micro error meaning you lose your entire air army to PB, or your entire ground army to disruptors. And that means also not your entire army because you were hit by one EMP and cant retreat anymore.
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Quick thought on the TvP matchup. There seems to be a consensus that this unit is kinda OP seeing how terrans are opening that safe blindly every single match, last time it was this bad was when the blink era reign supreme. Adept is of course very strong atm but the unit is cool and does not deserve to be nerfed to oblivion.
1) I think one way could be to have adept even more specialised with damage switch from 10 (+13 light) to something like 8 (+15 vs light) . Marauder/cyclone could deal with adepts early on.
We could also see very quick ghost play.
2) It could be that or a change ala marauder with the attack being two attacks instead of one.
3) Also for mobility the shade should be as fast as the adept not faster.
4) nerfing its early game resistance with the removal of the 1 armor early on.
Of course mixing one of those could be a solution if adept is that strong.
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EPT
