Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1234

On December 19 2015 00:38 Elentos wrote:

He means just the Fusion Core, no tech lab. Imo it's fine with the tech lab because it requires you to put a port on one. That means you can't get it ultra fast (which could be problematic vs Protoss), while in the late game with several ports it's not that big of a deal.

Imo if there are problems with Terran (beyond the map pool), it's not the fact that Advanced Ballistics requires a tech lab.

On December 19 2015 01:07 Lexender wrote:


Well I agree, I think adep/WP play needs a small nerf, not so much to make it weaker but to add some risk, for terran drops are costly, you need to have the medivacs full already and losing a drop hurts a lot because you lose units and medivacs are both costly in resources and in starport time, you want to make as many liberator so losing medivacs hurts you.
Adding some gas cost to WP, only 200 minerals to such a strong unit is a bit too much, WP can warp in super fast, are faster than vikings/liberators and have range pick up. Maybe nerf WP warping time but add an upgrade to make it the same again for lategame.

Then maybe a nerf to libs? I'm sure both nerf at the same time would hurt protoss, but I think protoss depeds too much in both at the same time. If protoss needs a buff in something then they can get it.

On December 19 2015 01:29 Elentos wrote:

I'm not sure it's quite that easy though. Even nerfed PO can take care of most counter harass, especially when coupled with defensive warp-ins. Meanwhile, getting 4 adepts into a Terran base can easily happen at a stage where the Terran army isn't ready to attack and defend at the same time (e.g. the 1st warp prism can be in your base before you have stim).

Basically, the strength of WP/Adept makes it so even committing 8 marines to a drop can seem scary when there's a prism afloat. I have no doubt, however, that a PO nerf will hit Protoss hard when it comes to defending midgame timings, cheese, etc. from Terran.

But that's not even considering the things Zerg can do to a Protoss with the current overcharge.

I'd be the happiest Terran if my depots and reactors didn't take forever.

On December 19 2015 00:38 Elentos wrote:

He means just the Fusion Core, no tech lab. Imo it's fine with the tech lab because it requires you to put a port on one. That means you can't get it ultra fast (which could be problematic vs Protoss), while in the late game with several ports it's not that big of a deal.

Imo if there are problems with Terran (beyond the map pool), it's not the fact that Advanced Ballistics requires a tech lab.

On December 19 2015 00:48 DinoMight wrote:
@Time Spiral

I think without the Liberator Nerf if you open Robo and a Liberator shows up there's literally zero you can do about it. Other than changing the map to have no dead air space behind the minerals... what are they to do? Zergs have a far better ability to scout Liberators coming (overlords) and HAVE 9 range fucking Ravagers at hatch tech to kill them. But as Protoss you can't really scout a Liberator rush unless you send your MsC to scout, which means its not at your base casting Photon Overcharge haha.

But I think Terran needs something to make the other races go "oh I better scout." I was playing the other day and my buddy asked me "why don't you scout?" and my answer was basically "scout for what?" because PO keeps me safe against literally everything.

Then I died to a 1/1/1 :p

On December 19 2015 02:04 TimeSpiral wrote:


He's correct, Toastie. I meant adding the actual research to the Fusion Core. Right now the research is on the Starport Tech Lab and is unlocked with a Fusion Core.

Elentos, something tells me that you do not main as Terran. My suggestion has zero effect on the rush timing of Advanced Ballistics (Liberator Range). Rushing to a fusion core, and then researching a long and expensive upgrade is not a thing. It's way too far down the tech path, and too expensive, to be a "rush play".

The point is: having it on the tech-lab is unnecessarily burdensome, especially in the context of TvP, and does not accomplish the goal of the nerf, which Blizzard stated very specifically (and I'm paraphrasing): some Liberator rush plays were too difficult to hold for Zerg if they did not prepare in advance for it, so we want to nerf the timing of the rush. Requiring a Fusion Core and a Research severely nerf the timing in multiple ways. The tech lab has no effect on the timing, just adds a production nerf on top of everything else.



Yeah, you know, Dino. I don't buy it. The whole "Protoss has no scouting thing". It's just bullshit. Protoss has the best energy-scouting in the game! Build one Sentry and you have free unpreventable energy scouting for the rest of the game. Is this not true?

And your example, yeah. This is SC2. Not every opener is safe. If I don't build six marines and/or a turret in each mineral line, and Toss opens oracle, I lose the game. I don't just take damage, I lose the game. Sure, maybe you can get lucky with a widow mine, or have top-3 control and kill it with a Cyclol, but you know what I mean. Not every build order is safe, and back in the beta, if the Terran invested into a 1-base all-in cheese (which is what the Liberator harass rush was) then yeah, you might take damage until your Stargate finished.

But either way: even Terrans agreed that a nerf on the rush timing was probably a good thing. And now we have it. I just think it went too far! Several of us (including me) suggested a Fusion Core. We just didn't expect the tech lab BS ... (or the starting range of 5, which is a joke).

On December 17 2015 23:27 EatingBomber wrote:
Concerning TvP -

Right now, ignoring traditional arguments like the disparity of difficulty in controlling armies etc, I feel that the early game is slightly imbalanced in favour of Protoss.

Consider the following -

1. Neither side has the advantage in scouting - previously, Terran held the advantage in early game scouting, as the Reaper provided a fast, easily accessible tool that could determine Protoss' basic openings ie. Nexus First, 1 Gateway FE, double gas(signifying aggression), etc. But now Terran has been stripped of this advantage because of Pylon Overcharge, which allows Protoss to easily shut down almost all scouting with well placed Pylons, which 2-shot Reapers.

Now, you may think this is fair, but in actuality it is not. It would be fair if both Protoss and Terran had equal diversity in openings and beginning strategies that could be detected with incomplete information for both sides, but the truth is, Protoss has a far greater diversity of openings, especially all-ins, that need to be scouted by Terran for an appropriate reaction. See for instance how Protoss had proxy Stargate, proxy Twilight Council/Dark Shrine, 2 base Blink, quick 3rd Nexus, 2gate robo, etc, in Heart of the Swarm. What does Terran have? 3 Barracks bio, 1-1-1 into Widow Mine drops, 1-1-1 into Marine-Hellion(although this is easily shut down by PO). For the nitpicky, you may include the 8-8-8 and the 11/11, but then Protoss always has the proxy gateway and the proxy2gate.

Now, in LotV, Protoss has retained the same diversity in openings (in fact, some of the old proxy strategies now include an expansion, so simply scanning the natural is insufficient), and in fact it could be argued has received more ie. 3gate-robotics pressure, 2gate Pylon Overcharge-Adept pressure; MC even executed a proxy Oracle into 3 Overcharged Pylons against Polt in the WW3 tournament run by CatZ, 2 all-ins in one. But now, Terran's Reaper is highly ineffective at scouting, due to Pylon Overcharge and the ease of placing Pylons in good positions. And please, don't howl 'Scan' because in most of the maps (Prion Terraces, Orbital Shipyard, Dusk Towers, etc) the main bases are large enough to hide certain tech structures (which almost every good Protoss does) and even if not so, there is always the proxy case.

2. Protoss is effectively invulnerable to almost every sort of Terran all-in, and even some midgame Terran pressure, while Terran is vulnerable to taking damage from almost every all-in and even standard pressure conceivable, even when scouted. For instance, it is very easy to scout a 3gate Robotics-Facility pressure build, because this is a standard build and thus unlikely to be proxied, and therefore even when the Reaper fails, a scan would most likely reveal the build. At this moment in time, the standard Terran response would be to construct a Cyclone while producing Marines/Marauders from 2 Barracks, 1 with a Lab researching stim, etc. Even then, a Warp Prism arriving is not guaranteed to be shot down. This is completely legitimate, because this is dependent on Cyclone/Warp Prism micro. Even then, aside from the Cyclone (which needs constant attention, micro, and is vulnerable to being shot down by Adepts), Terran only has ~10-15 Marines, which are complete trash against the 7 Adepts in your base(4 warped in beforehand and transported by the prism, 3 more from the 3gates) and Terran, more likely than not, has to pull SCVs and lose workers and mining time. Note that this is a standard build, and Terran is guaranteed to lose units and workers. What does Terran have in the early game and early-midgame to pressure Protoss? 3 Barracks bio play gets completely shut down by PO, 1-1-1 all-ins as well, etc etc.

Such a disparity in the threats faced by both sides allows Protoss to tech too quickly with impunity - now builds like 2-base 3gate Robo-Twilight(for Resonating Glaives)Adept pressure into Templar Archives + Storm actually exist, giving Protoss access to high-tech units without spending too much resources on units, since they are safe with early-early-midgame pressure from Terran. In turn Terran has to constantly scout, not only for the early game, but for the entire game - Is he going Colossus or Disruptors? Is he going to be dedicated to Colossi, or just spending on 2-3 Colossi, before getting Disruptors? Is he getting Disruptors, followed by Tempests? Or is it going to be an Archon-Stalker-Disruptor composition? etc.

Just my 2cents - please feel free to dispute me if you disagree.

EDIT: Added new material

On December 19 2015 02:18 Elentos wrote:

I do main Terran, and I never said anything about rush plays. I said getting it ultra fast, which in terms of a lategame upgrade I guess is to say making it accessible way before its counter plays. And putting the upgrade on the fusion core means you can get use out of it faster in a regular game. Even if you don't get the fusion core before your 2nd starport for the lulz, you can make more liberators then which get access to the upgrade.

The fact it's on tech lab may be cumbersome, but it's warranted considering its best Protoss counterplay is the equally cumbersome tempest because the range on the liberator becomes insane. Honestly I don't think this needs to be looked at yet, late game seems a bit T favored already even with the upgrade locked by fusion core and tech lab.

On December 19 2015 02:33 DinoMight wrote:


Hallucination and observers are both great tools but neither of them come quickly enough to scout a 1/1/1 *if you open Gateway>Nexus>Core, which is the standard macro opening. On the bases with the back expansions (where T walls both bases with 1 wall) the only way to scout it in time is with MsC.

I'm all for adding a little vulnerability to P in the early game. Right now I find the matchup very boring: "Do as much damage as possible while being as greedy as possible so that you play the rest of the game with an insurmountable economic advantage."

But it needs to be something that with proper scouting you can reasonably react to. A 9 range Liberator parked behind my mineral line, even if it's scouted, still REQUIRES a Starport and Phoenix to kill it. Just the denied mining time alone is worth it.

I would be okay with either a tech lab OR a fusion core for the research. Both is a bit much. I'd like to see Protoss/Zerg forced to react a bit more than they are by creative rush plays.

This just sucks man.

On December 19 2015 01:57 DinoMight wrote:


A single widow mine or liberator can cause huge problems at home for the Protoss if there is no Photon Overcharge or units available. A good widow mine shot can kill like 12 workers.. a bad one usually gets at least 4...

It's very little commitment from the T if the Protoss can't instantly overcharge 3 pylons and murder everything.

On December 19 2015 03:21 Elentos wrote:

I guess this works to some extent, but you'll be hard pressed to find completely unprotected libs once they have the range upgrade. I mean, adding mines, pre-splitting bio, having some liberators cover the ground for the most offensive ones, that just makes sense imo. You'll find some, but will you find enough to make it worth it?

On that note, CJ herO played pretty much disruptor-less PvT in all games I've seen from him in LotV, are those basically confirmed to never hit anything against the highest level Terrans? Or why else would he skip them?

On December 19 2015 03:13 TimeSpiral wrote:
Your choosing to forgo scouting when rushing the Nexus. You don't have to do that. I really don't think scouting is an issue for Toss, atm, especially with the sheer variety of game-ending openers they have (that are almost impossible to scout in time as a Terran).