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On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC?
And you do right? First ask yourself this, why does a race need to be vulnerable to T early game pressure when T has one of the strongest mid-late game armies? If P can't land disruptor shots thanks to good splits and T micro, the fight is already at a big disadvantage and P needs to desperately make good trades happen just to stay even. Secondly, if P gets early third off of 1 gate, even MSC can't save him from cheesy proxy, 1/1/1 all-in, and can do substantial dmg with banshees since obs will be out very late.
And that's IF the Terran decides to play like that. P going 3 nexus early also allows for Terran to expand safely and acquire his 3rd early. T is also relatively safe from early pressure thanks to how useful cyclones are.
But let me guess, all other races need to be vulnerable to Terran, early, mid, and late game, while T itself can't be vulnerable at any stages of the game, am I right? With your attitude, you should ask Warhounds to come back with double the DPS it has before it was removed. Pathetic.
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On December 17 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? Marine Liberator Tank allin. Some guy fucked me up with that lol.
Well, one would expect that a 1 base all-in to be good against a protoss that goes to third off 1 gate
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On December 17 2015 05:07 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? Marine Liberator Tank allin. Some guy fucked me up with that lol. Well, one would expect that a 1 base all-in to be good against a protoss that goes to third off 1 gate
I'm not arguing that lol. But just sayin' there are some possibilities. It's not like vs Z where even 3 hatch before pool is untouchable.
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I would like to know what you guys think about the zerg race design.
In lotv it's seems there are huge problems with Zergs, because the new economy system is perfect for the zerg race wich expands really fast, while other races are pretty behind, expecially protoss wich are tipically the slowest race producing units and setting up expansions.
The current meta, mostly with ravagers, roachs, lurkers, ultras, seems to me NOT well suited for zerg race.
I have always seen the zerg race as quantity race: low cost, weak units, but high numbers. The great plus of this race are great eco and fast switches to deal with enemy always with best composition.
With the current meta, zergs have very high health units along with high damage plus the new economy -> zergs become really powerful. Just take a look to lurker: 200hp units for high damage and stealth, or ultras, or ravagers. No matter what is their cost, there is no high cost that can justify a bad designed unit.
I wonder if we reduce the defense capabilities of some units with high dps or special attacks (lurkers/ravager/vipers) we could fix some of the lotv issue simply by respecting zergs general design. This way, these units can still deal great amount of damage, but zerg need to be careful and micro them or they get killed because they have little hp. I feel it's like zergs have fat dts!
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On December 17 2015 05:06 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? And you do right? First ask yourself this, why does a race need to be vulnerable to T early game pressure when T has one of the strongest mid-late game armies? If P can't land disruptor shots thanks to good splits and T micro, the fight is already at a big disadvantage and P needs to desperately make good trades happen just to stay even. Secondly, if P gets early third off of 1 gate, even MSC can't save him from cheesy proxy, 1/1/1 all-in, and can do substantial dmg with banshees since obs will be out very late. And that's IF the Terran decides to play like that. P going 3 nexus early also allows for Terran to expand safely and acquire his 3rd early. T is also relatively safe from early pressure thanks to how useful cyclones are. But let me guess, all other races need to be vulnerable to Terran, early, mid, and late game, while T itself can't be vulnerable at any stages of the game, am I right? With your attitude, you should ask Warhounds to come back with double the DPS it has before it was removed. Pathetic.
Goodness, Parku. On one hand, it's cool to see you're still going strong. On the other, it's just hard to see someone QQ'ing about Terran right now, who is very clearly at the bottom of the balance discussion.
One of the issues in TvP is that Terran has to defend until medivacs, stim, and combat shields, and then can't truly engage until Liberators (and now that doesn't even work). Toss knows this. Toss gets a free Nexus on every map. This is where the problem comes in. The timing window for Terran to know whether 7 more gates are going down, or a third Nexus is incredibly short. If Terran builds a CC, and Toss builds Gates, the game is probably over. If Terran builds production facilities, and Toss builds a Nexus, the game is over because Toss's economy will explode and by the time you get there with your "bigger army" your advantage is gone, for several reasons.
Sure, Terran might be able to pull off some super cheesy proxy one-base all-in and win some random games. Meh. These all-ins are much less guaranteed to work than the non-all-in all-ins Zerg and Toss have that can just outright win the game, or seamlessly transition into a macro game. That's part of the issue too.
Nobody is arguing that every race has to be vulnerable to Terran at all stages of the game. I think the argument is much more nuanced than that. I think the argument is that certain races shouldn't become invulnerable to Terran if certain common conditions are met.
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On December 17 2015 04:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
The more I play and see pros play, the more I think the only issue is with Tankivacs and the HORRIFIC RIDICULOUS RETARDED POISONOUS DAED GAEM Maps...
I mean, only three are decently playable and even those are beh at best. Impossible thirds, HUGE ass ramps, incredibly close rush distance, incredibly huge rush distance. RIP
I would actually like to know which ones you would choose as the 3 good ones. Because your comment triggered me to do some graphs and least-square-residuals on the maps (under the assumption that a good map is 50:50 and with the stats found on liquipedia) and it would be interesting to hear how they match up with the results. 
And since I'm a nice dude and don't want to have comments like "trolololololol, your comment makes no sense compared to the data", in the spoiler is the ranking up front.
Mapname (square error); stat description
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Orbital Shipyard (0.02147872); according to the stats T>P>Z
2. Prion Terraces (0.02601626); according to the stats Z>T>P
3. Lerilak Crest (0.04288014); according to the stats Z>T>P
4. Dusk Towers (0.06574467); according to the stats Z>T, Z=P, T>P
5. Ruins of Serras (0.08480809); according to the stats Z>T>P
6. Ulrena (0.08990037); according to the stats Z>T>P
7. Central Protocol (0.1056308); according to the stats Z>P>T
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On December 17 2015 05:34 Weltall wrote:
I would like to know what you guys think about the zerg race design.
In lotv it's seems there are huge problems with Zergs, because the new economy system is perfect for the zerg race wich expands really fast, while other races are pretty behind, expecially protoss wich are tipically the slowest race producing units and setting up expansions.
The current meta, mostly with ravagers, roachs, lurkers, ultras, seems to me NOT well suited for zerg race.
I have always seen the zerg race as quantity race: low cost, weak units, but high numbers. The great plus of this race are great eco and fast switches to deal with enemy always with best composition.
With the current meta, zergs have very high health units along with high damage plus the new economy -> zergs become really powerful. Just take a look to lurker: 200hp units for high damage and stealth, or ultras, or ravagers. No matter what is their cost, there is no high cost that can justify a bad designed unit.
I wonder if we reduce the defense capabilities of some units with high dps or special attacks (lurkers/ravager/vipers) we could fix some of the lotv issue simply by respecting zergs general design. This way, these units can still deal great amount of damage, but zerg need to be careful and micro them or they get killed because they have little hp. I feel it's like zergs have fat dts!
Lurkers are a fantastic addition and should stay.
Swarm Hosts are crap and should just be removed from the game, along with Widow Mines and one of the Protoss units (not sure which)
Other than that the only problem I have with Zerg is that it still lacks a risk free harassment option for the early game which Blizzard seems to want in the game (hellions, reapers, adepts) - so I think Zerglings should be able to morph into winglings and cliff jump for something like 25/15 per zergling
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Central Protocol is fucking unplayable vs Zerg.
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what if the tankivac stayed but siege mode was reverted back to being an upgrade?
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On December 17 2015 06:51 halomonian wrote:
what if the tankivac stayed but siege mode was reverted back to being an upgrade?
I don't think any of this is the problem. There is no balance problem with the medivac/tank combo. The question is plainly whether that element is an improvement to gameplay or not.
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On December 17 2015 05:32 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 05:07 Lexender wrote:On December 17 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? Marine Liberator Tank allin. Some guy fucked me up with that lol. Well, one would expect that a 1 base all-in to be good against a protoss that goes to third off 1 gate I'm not arguing that lol. But just sayin' there are some possibilities. It's not like vs Z where even 3 hatch before pool is untouchable.
Must be untouchable against protoss. Reaper cheeses crush that.
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I see people arguing for agressive 1/1/1 in this thread.
who what where when how?
To me it feels like 1/1/1 is a prehistoric build that gets shat on because of 12 workers. Am I wrong to think that? Is it still relevent?
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On December 17 2015 05:50 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 05:06 parkufarku wrote:On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? And you do right? First ask yourself this, why does a race need to be vulnerable to T early game pressure when T has one of the strongest mid-late game armies? If P can't land disruptor shots thanks to good splits and T micro, the fight is already at a big disadvantage and P needs to desperately make good trades happen just to stay even. Secondly, if P gets early third off of 1 gate, even MSC can't save him from cheesy proxy, 1/1/1 all-in, and can do substantial dmg with banshees since obs will be out very late. And that's IF the Terran decides to play like that. P going 3 nexus early also allows for Terran to expand safely and acquire his 3rd early. T is also relatively safe from early pressure thanks to how useful cyclones are. But let me guess, all other races need to be vulnerable to Terran, early, mid, and late game, while T itself can't be vulnerable at any stages of the game, am I right? With your attitude, you should ask Warhounds to come back with double the DPS it has before it was removed. Pathetic. Goodness, Parku. On one hand, it's cool to see you're still going strong. On the other, it's just hard to see someone QQ'ing about Terran right now, who is very clearly at the bottom of the balance discussion. One of the issues in TvP is that Terran has to defend until medivacs, stim, and combat shields, and then can't truly engage until Liberators (and now that doesn't even work). Toss knows this. Toss gets a free Nexus on every map. This is where the problem comes in. The timing window for Terran to know whether 7 more gates are going down, or a third Nexus is incredibly short. If Terran builds a CC, and Toss builds Gates, the game is probably over. If Terran builds production facilities, and Toss builds a Nexus, the game is over because Toss's economy will explode and by the time you get there with your "bigger army" your advantage is gone, for several reasons. Sure, Terran might be able to pull off some super cheesy proxy one-base all-in and win some random games. Meh. These all-ins are much less guaranteed to work than the non-all-in all-ins Zerg and Toss have that can just outright win the game, or seamlessly transition into a macro game. That's part of the issue too. Nobody is arguing that every race has to be vulnerable to Terran at all stages of the game. I think the argument is much more nuanced than that. I think the argument is that certain races shouldn't become invulnerable to Terran if certain common conditions are met.
I cannot agree more. There are so many threads early game for terran vs protoss where you can fuck up. There are multiple allins on the protoss side that are possible. Some of them are even very hard to hold when scouted. But the real problem is as you said the harass transition. Just to mention one scenario is, when the protoss goes oracle. If it doesnt do damage you can smoothly transition and get free vision. But if you kill 1 or 2 marines too much at the beginning or the t is off position for some reason this can be game ending when the first oracle arrives. I think this is fine but nothing like this exists on the protoss side. Even if protoss messes a push up in the very early game. you cannot punish it if you do not have medivacs due to pylons. But you cannot rush medivacs because you need the cyclone to be safe or go 3 rax. otherwise its too dicy. Also the pylon/adept MSC pushes are really annoying. And again one mistake and you are gone. I dont say that these strats are imbalance but it feels so squishy on the terran side and it feels like you cannot punish anything or be rewarded for a good hold.
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On December 17 2015 07:43 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I see people arguing for agressive 1/1/1 in this thread.
who what where when how?
To me it feels like 1/1/1 is a prehistoric build that gets shat on because of 12 workers. Am I wrong to think that? Is it still relevent?
PO change to pylons = tanks can kill them from out of range
Immortal nerf means you can't absorb unlimited tank shots anymore
Liberators arrive with the push dealing insane damage and using up the 200 damage on the Immortal shield very fast
15 or so marines + scvs under it.
If you're just playing regular macro this arrives when you've got 4 adepts and a warp prism or observer (no time for both).
It's pretty fucking strong. On the maps with the back natural expansions you can only scout this with your MsC. Adept cant see if he's expanded or not (wall) and obs/halu arrives too late.
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Only me liking big ramps to natural :o
What i hate is small ramps to every natural etc, THAT IS BORING
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On December 17 2015 05:50 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 05:06 parkufarku wrote:On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? And you do right? First ask yourself this, why does a race need to be vulnerable to T early game pressure when T has one of the strongest mid-late game armies? If P can't land disruptor shots thanks to good splits and T micro, the fight is already at a big disadvantage and P needs to desperately make good trades happen just to stay even. Secondly, if P gets early third off of 1 gate, even MSC can't save him from cheesy proxy, 1/1/1 all-in, and can do substantial dmg with banshees since obs will be out very late. And that's IF the Terran decides to play like that. P going 3 nexus early also allows for Terran to expand safely and acquire his 3rd early. T is also relatively safe from early pressure thanks to how useful cyclones are. But let me guess, all other races need to be vulnerable to Terran, early, mid, and late game, while T itself can't be vulnerable at any stages of the game, am I right? With your attitude, you should ask Warhounds to come back with double the DPS it has before it was removed. Pathetic. Goodness, Parku. On one hand, it's cool to see you're still going strong. On the other, it's just hard to see someone QQ'ing about Terran right now, who is very clearly at the bottom of the balance discussion. One of the issues in TvP is that Terran has to defend until medivacs, stim, and combat shields, and then can't truly engage until Liberators (and now that doesn't even work). Toss knows this. Toss gets a free Nexus on every map. This is where the problem comes in. The timing window for Terran to know whether 7 more gates are going down, or a third Nexus is incredibly short. If Terran builds a CC, and Toss builds Gates, the game is probably over. If Terran builds production facilities, and Toss builds a Nexus, the game is over because Toss's economy will explode and by the time you get there with your "bigger army" your advantage is gone, for several reasons. Sure, Terran might be able to pull off some super cheesy proxy one-base all-in and win some random games. Meh. These all-ins are much less guaranteed to work than the non-all-in all-ins Zerg and Toss have that can just outright win the game, or seamlessly transition into a macro game. That's part of the issue too. Nobody is arguing that every race has to be vulnerable to Terran at all stages of the game. I think the argument is much more nuanced than that. I think the argument is that certain races shouldn't become invulnerable to Terran if certain common conditions are met.
And it's cool to see you're still going strong as always on the balance whine posts. Explain why liberators don't work? The timing allows for T to safely at least acquire a few liberators on the map by the time Protoss brings Robo higher-tech units. I can see you still like to exaggerate things - Terran has many tools to safely defend from early P aggression, as bunkers, WMs, Cyclones, and low tech units are still good as ever. As it is also true vice versa, P can depend on PO, warp-ins, adepts, etc.
Last time I checked, anyone, regardless of race, who builds another CC / nexus, while the enemy builds production facilities, will always have an econ advantage if left unpunished. When Toss gets 7 gates, Terran has many ways of knowing - remember that scan is unstoppable unlike observers, and even reapers can be used as a scouting tool early mid game.
Terrans also have non-all in aggressive timing pushes, you make it sound like only T has it bad. Toastie was trying to whine that Protoss 3 nexus 1 gate can't be punished, which clearly isn't true, even with POs available.
I think you need to look at things from a different perspective and reflect on why certain playstyles don't work, instead of always looking to nerf non-Terran things. I'd like to have a civil discussion with you but your bias makes it hard for me to take your argument seriously.
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On December 17 2015 10:33 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 05:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 17 2015 05:06 parkufarku wrote:On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? And you do right? First ask yourself this, why does a race need to be vulnerable to T early game pressure when T has one of the strongest mid-late game armies? If P can't land disruptor shots thanks to good splits and T micro, the fight is already at a big disadvantage and P needs to desperately make good trades happen just to stay even. Secondly, if P gets early third off of 1 gate, even MSC can't save him from cheesy proxy, 1/1/1 all-in, and can do substantial dmg with banshees since obs will be out very late. And that's IF the Terran decides to play like that. P going 3 nexus early also allows for Terran to expand safely and acquire his 3rd early. T is also relatively safe from early pressure thanks to how useful cyclones are. But let me guess, all other races need to be vulnerable to Terran, early, mid, and late game, while T itself can't be vulnerable at any stages of the game, am I right? With your attitude, you should ask Warhounds to come back with double the DPS it has before it was removed. Pathetic. Goodness, Parku. On one hand, it's cool to see you're still going strong. On the other, it's just hard to see someone QQ'ing about Terran right now, who is very clearly at the bottom of the balance discussion. One of the issues in TvP is that Terran has to defend until medivacs, stim, and combat shields, and then can't truly engage until Liberators (and now that doesn't even work). Toss knows this. Toss gets a free Nexus on every map. This is where the problem comes in. The timing window for Terran to know whether 7 more gates are going down, or a third Nexus is incredibly short. If Terran builds a CC, and Toss builds Gates, the game is probably over. If Terran builds production facilities, and Toss builds a Nexus, the game is over because Toss's economy will explode and by the time you get there with your "bigger army" your advantage is gone, for several reasons. Sure, Terran might be able to pull off some super cheesy proxy one-base all-in and win some random games. Meh. These all-ins are much less guaranteed to work than the non-all-in all-ins Zerg and Toss have that can just outright win the game, or seamlessly transition into a macro game. That's part of the issue too. Nobody is arguing that every race has to be vulnerable to Terran at all stages of the game. I think the argument is much more nuanced than that. I think the argument is that certain races shouldn't become invulnerable to Terran if certain common conditions are met. And it's cool to see you're still going strong as always on the balance whine posts. Explain why liberators don't work? The timing allows for T to safely at least acquire a few liberators on the map by the time Protoss brings Robo higher-tech units. I can see you still like to exaggerate things - Terran has many tools to safely defend from early P aggression, as bunkers, WMs, Cyclones, and low tech units are still good as ever. As it is also true vice versa, P can depend on PO, warp-ins, adepts, etc. Last time I checked, anyone, regardless of race, who builds another CC / nexus, while the enemy builds production facilities, will always have an econ advantage if left unpunished. When Toss gets 7 gates, Terran has many ways of knowing - remember that scan is unstoppable unlike observers, and even reapers can be used as a scouting tool early mid game. Terrans also have non-all in aggressive timing pushes, you make it sound like only T has it bad. Toastie was trying to whine that Protoss 3 nexus 1 gate can't be punished, which clearly isn't true, even with POs available. I think you need to look at things from a different perspective and reflect on why certain playstyles don't work, instead of always looking to nerf non-Terran things. I'd like to have a civil discussion with you but your bias makes it hard for me to take your argument seriously.
Yoo parku, did you see the GSL/SSL results?
Ye.
Time to stfu.
On December 17 2015 05:06 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? if P gets early third off of 1 gate, even MSC can't save him from cheesy proxy, 1/1/1 all-in, and can do substantial dmg with banshees since obs will be out very late. And that's IF the Terran decides to play like that. P going 3 nexus early also allows for Terran to expand safely and acquire his 3rd early. T is also relatively safe from early pressure thanks to how useful cyclones are. But let me guess, all other races need to be vulnerable to Terran, early, mid, and late game, while T itself can't be vulnerable at any stages of the game, am I right? With your attitude, you should ask Warhounds to come back with double the DPS it has before it was removed. Pathetic.
Even though I BOLDED the word Reactionary in my post, you're telling me that a 3 nexus off 1 gate is going to lose to cheesy proxy, 1/1/1 all in, and banshees (1/1/1 allin essentially).
NO SHIT SHERLOCK
I don't want Terran to be invulnerable and Protoss to be vulnerable at all points in the game. However, currently, Protoss is bashing in Terrans skull, getting faster tech, expands, larger army, easier defense and better harassment. Only when Terran is at 200 supply, with a PF and Liberators is the game even, and even then Protoss has a next tech stage and Terran doesn't.
On December 17 2015 10:33 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 05:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 17 2015 05:06 parkufarku wrote:On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC? And you do right? First ask yourself this, why does a race need to be vulnerable to T early game pressure when T has one of the strongest mid-late game armies? If P can't land disruptor shots thanks to good splits and T micro, the fight is already at a big disadvantage and P needs to desperately make good trades happen just to stay even. Secondly, if P gets early third off of 1 gate, even MSC can't save him from cheesy proxy, 1/1/1 all-in, and can do substantial dmg with banshees since obs will be out very late. And that's IF the Terran decides to play like that. P going 3 nexus early also allows for Terran to expand safely and acquire his 3rd early. T is also relatively safe from early pressure thanks to how useful cyclones are. But let me guess, all other races need to be vulnerable to Terran, early, mid, and late game, while T itself can't be vulnerable at any stages of the game, am I right? With your attitude, you should ask Warhounds to come back with double the DPS it has before it was removed. Pathetic. Goodness, Parku. On one hand, it's cool to see you're still going strong. On the other, it's just hard to see someone QQ'ing about Terran right now, who is very clearly at the bottom of the balance discussion. One of the issues in TvP is that Terran has to defend until medivacs, stim, and combat shields, and then can't truly engage until Liberators (and now that doesn't even work). Toss knows this. Toss gets a free Nexus on every map. This is where the problem comes in. The timing window for Terran to know whether 7 more gates are going down, or a third Nexus is incredibly short. If Terran builds a CC, and Toss builds Gates, the game is probably over. If Terran builds production facilities, and Toss builds a Nexus, the game is over because Toss's economy will explode and by the time you get there with your "bigger army" your advantage is gone, for several reasons. Sure, Terran might be able to pull off some super cheesy proxy one-base all-in and win some random games. Meh. These all-ins are much less guaranteed to work than the non-all-in all-ins Zerg and Toss have that can just outright win the game, or seamlessly transition into a macro game. That's part of the issue too. Nobody is arguing that every race has to be vulnerable to Terran at all stages of the game. I think the argument is much more nuanced than that. I think the argument is that certain races shouldn't become invulnerable to Terran if certain common conditions are met. d to look at things from a different perspective and reflect on why certain playstyles don't work, instead of always looking to nerf non-Terran things. I'd like to have a civil discussion with you but your bias makes it hard for me to take your argument seriously.
Also lol.
I'm so sad I can't find those balance suggestions of yours when Terran died to blink all in constantly and PvT being 80%, which came down to increase carrier cost with 50 minerals, make Storm stronger, nerf reactor, marines, medivacs, siege tanks, vikings, buff bunker.
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On December 17 2015 07:48 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 07:43 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I see people arguing for agressive 1/1/1 in this thread.
who what where when how?
To me it feels like 1/1/1 is a prehistoric build that gets shat on because of 12 workers. Am I wrong to think that? Is it still relevent?
PO change to pylons = tanks can kill them from out of range Immortal nerf means you can't absorb unlimited tank shots anymore Liberators arrive with the push dealing insane damage and using up the 200 damage on the Immortal shield very fast 15 or so marines + scvs under it. If you're just playing regular macro this arrives when you've got 4 adepts and a warp prism or observer (no time for both). It's pretty fucking strong. On the maps with the back natural expansions you can only scout this with your MsC. Adept cant see if he's expanded or not (wall) and obs/halu arrives too late.
Immortal "nerf" has no effect on its ability to break tank lines. You still break tanks line just about the same as you did in hots. It could even be consider a buff because marines are worse vs them.
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Concerning TvP -
Right now, ignoring traditional arguments like the disparity of difficulty in controlling armies etc, I feel that the early game is slightly imbalanced in favour of Protoss.
Consider the following -
1. Neither side has the advantage in scouting - previously, Terran held the advantage in early game scouting, as the Reaper provided a fast, easily accessible tool that could determine Protoss' basic openings ie. Nexus First, 1 Gateway FE, double gas(signifying aggression), etc. But now Terran has been stripped of this advantage because of Pylon Overcharge, which allows Protoss to easily shut down almost all scouting with well placed Pylons, which 2-shot Reapers.
Now, you may think this is fair, but in actuality it is not. It would be fair if both Protoss and Terran had equal diversity in openings and beginning strategies that could be detected with incomplete information for both sides, but the truth is, Protoss has a far greater diversity of openings, especially all-ins, that need to be scouted by Terran for an appropriate reaction. See for instance how Protoss had proxy Stargate, proxy Twilight Council/Dark Shrine, 2 base Blink, quick 3rd Nexus, 2gate robo, etc, in Heart of the Swarm. What does Terran have? 3 Barracks bio, 1-1-1 into Widow Mine drops, 1-1-1 into Marine-Hellion(although this is easily shut down by PO). For the nitpicky, you may include the 8-8-8 and the 11/11, but then Protoss always has the proxy gateway and the proxy2gate.
Now, in LotV, Protoss has retained the same diversity in openings (in fact, some of the old proxy strategies now include an expansion, so simply scanning the natural is insufficient), and in fact it could be argued has received more ie. 3gate-robotics pressure, 2gate Pylon Overcharge-Adept pressure; MC even executed a proxy Oracle into 3 Overcharged Pylons against Polt in the WW3 tournament run by CatZ, 2 all-ins in one. But now, Terran's Reaper is highly ineffective at scouting, due to Pylon Overcharge and the ease of placing Pylons in good positions. And please, don't howl 'Scan' because in most of the maps (Prion Terraces, Orbital Shipyard, Dusk Towers, etc) the main bases are large enough to hide certain tech structures (which almost every good Protoss does) and even if not so, there is always the proxy case.
2. Protoss is effectively invulnerable to almost every sort of Terran all-in, and even some midgame Terran pressure, while Terran is vulnerable to taking damage from almost every all-in and even standard pressure conceivable, even when scouted. For instance, it is very easy to scout a 3gate Robotics-Facility pressure build, because this is a standard build and thus unlikely to be proxied, and therefore even when the Reaper fails, a scan would most likely reveal the build. At this moment in time, the standard Terran response would be to construct a Cyclone while producing Marines/Marauders from 2 Barracks, 1 with a Lab researching stim, etc. Even then, a Warp Prism arriving is not guaranteed to be shot down. This is completely legitimate, because this is dependent on Cyclone/Warp Prism micro. Even then, aside from the Cyclone (which needs constant attention, micro, and is vulnerable to being shot down by Adepts), Terran only has ~10-15 Marines, which are complete trash against the 7 Adepts in your base(4 warped in beforehand and transported by the prism, 3 more from the 3gates) and Terran, more likely than not, has to pull SCVs and lose workers and mining time. Note that this is a standard build, and Terran is guaranteed to lose units and workers. What does Terran have in the early game and early-midgame to pressure Protoss? 3 Barracks bio play gets completely shut down by PO, 1-1-1 all-ins as well, etc etc.
Such a disparity in the threats faced by both sides allows Protoss to tech too quickly with impunity - now builds like 2-base 3gate Robo-Twilight(for Resonating Glaives)Adept pressure into Templar Archives + Storm actually exist, giving Protoss access to high-tech units without spending too much resources on units, since they are safe with early-early-midgame pressure from Terran. In turn Terran has to constantly scout, not only for the early game, but for the entire game - Is he going Colossus or Disruptors? Is he going to be dedicated to Colossi, or just spending on 2-3 Colossi, before getting Disruptors? Is he getting Disruptors, followed by Tempests? Or is it going to be an Archon-Stalker-Disruptor composition? etc.
Just my 2cents - please feel free to dispute me if you disagree.
EDIT: Added new material
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^^ and thats just a tip of the iceberg.
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EPT
