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On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
It's worth pointing out for the non P players that PvP is teaching us that the disruptor's vulnerability is a lot more exploitable than we realized. Whether it's feasible for terrans to snipe them before the nova detonates is another question, but time will tell I suppose.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Forcing the opponent to disengage and dodge it is valuable in and of itself. That being said, as much as I like the unit, I worry that it's doomed to be either bad or boring. Even if it is worth it to keep your opponent at an arms length by juggling nova shots eventually players are going to dodge them almost always, right? I wonder if on the spectrum of strength and reliability the disruptor isn't still skewed a little too hard towards strength. Could totally be wrong though.
First things first, fix the maps. Our view of the balance challenges can't be very clear with nonsense like Ulrena, Central Protocol, Lerilak Crest, and Prion Terraces to play on. These maps aren't "crazy", they just belong in 2011.
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On December 16 2015 04:23 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 03:45 coolman123123 wrote:
Protoss has too many early game options .
More and more I am seeing Protoss abusing their plethora of early to mid game options vs Terran. I am struggling heavily against any combination of MSC, pylon overcharges, Oracles and Adepts early game. You'd think this would be a large investment but Protoss is still easily able to expand behind these pressure builds and easily defend counter attacks with Pylons. I'm not saying the matchup is totally imbalanced, but the meta is going in a bad direction.
I think the main problem is that Protoss has too many units where you make one of them and they have a huge impact. One MSC, one Oracle, one Warp Prism can do more than any one singular Terran unit. The Cyclone is a huge investment early on but feels increasingly like the only way to stay safe vs Toss.
Personally I think it's time to nerf, revamp or remove the Oracle's attack and make the unit about scouting and revelation in the mid to late game. It was bad design in HotS but more manageable. Now with the Adept and the new econ I feel the Oracle adds too much bullshit/free win into the game. Its extremely easy to open Adept MSC and Oracle while still getting a similar expansion timing to Terran. The oracle is pretty superfluous vs. Terran. It's worse than an adept drop in literally every way and also gets countered by the cyclone. I have no idea why any Protoss would do this, especially when fast oracle is countered by building 2 turrets but adept drop isn't.
The Oracle is really strong within the context of toss early game. Adept drop hits later and is a bigger investment, the ORacle allows you to open with one adept, MSC and Oracle poke extremely early in the game. You basically need a Cyclone to defend and even then you will lose SCVs. If your defense is perfect, you still aren't very far ahead economically. Just the threat of these 3 units, as well as the Warp Prism coming out shortly after, is simply too much and requires Terran to play extremely safe. As others have mentioned, Terran also struggles heavily in straight up fights in the mid game (before libs). The matchup is drifting toward a volatile mess. Reducing the cost AND build time of the Cyclone would help a lot but I'd rather they just phase out the Oracle as an opener because it's such an all or nothing boring unit.
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On December 16 2015 05:08 cop354g wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Dont forget how disruptor makes mech really hard.
Everytime I play mech the protoss just puts down 3 stargates and a fleet beacon and start pumping out tempests and carriers.
Why should you bother with disruptors when you have even better counters to mech?
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OK, I am admitting upfront that I play only 2v2s for quite a while now, but I still want to share some opinions on balance. Mainly, how surprised I am about how balanced the game feels at my low level (we are diamond in 2v2, but who isn't?). We play TZ and while I have BlizzAPM(tm) of about 110, my wife is only somewhere around 50. From watching the incredibly insane games that the pros show, I would think we are gonna get overwhelmed by all this stuff that can blow everything up in seconds, but it somehow doesn't happen.
Yeah, disruptors blow things up and there is nothing much we can do about it with our shitty micro. On the other hand our opponents don't seem to be really able to do anything about those running stupidly into our army and dying for no reason. Adepts seem strong against light units, but they usually just stand long enough in tank fire to vanish in big numbers (yeah, tanks are incredibly good in low-level 2v2s in any matchup). I have never seen a single useful application of a tankivac in 50+ games. I do like my lurkers, but I either die just before they hatch, or I eventually let them die one by one by bad control and never seem to find time to morph any new ones. Liberators are a nuisnance, but they usually siege in range of something that kills them before they shoot.
I think people should really appreciate what Blizzard did here. They have introduced a lot (and I mean a really big shopping-mall parking lot) of new complicated mechanics and dangerous sources of damage in the game, but they have managed to make exciting pro-level games while maintaing good playability for noobs. I think so far they really did great.
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On December 16 2015 06:17 opisska wrote:
OK, I am admitting upfront that I play only 2v2s for quite a while now, but I still want to share some opinions on balance. Mainly, how surprised I am about how balanced the game feels at my low level (we are diamond in 2v2, but who isn't?). We play TZ and while I have BlizzAPM(tm) of about 110, my wife is only somewhere around 50. From watching the incredibly insane games that the pros show, I would think we are gonna get overwhelmed by all this stuff that can blow everything up in seconds, but it somehow doesn't happen.
Yeah, disruptors blow things up and there is nothing much we can do about it with our shitty micro. On the other hand our opponents don't seem to be really able to do anything about those running stupidly into our army and dying for no reason. Adepts seem strong against light units, but they usually just stand long enough in tank fire to vanish in big numbers (yeah, tanks are incredibly good in low-level 2v2s in any matchup). I have never seen a single useful application of a tankivac in 50+ games. I do like my lurkers, but I either die just before they hatch, or I eventually let them die one by one by bad control and never seem to find time to morph any new ones. Liberators are a nuisnance, but they usually siege in range of something that kills them before they shoot.
I think people should really appreciate what Blizzard did here. They have introduced a lot (and I mean a really big shopping-mall parking lot) of new complicated mechanics and dangerous sources of damage in the game, but they have managed to make exciting pro-level games while maintaing good playability for noobs. I think so far they really did great.
With all due respect to you and your wife I don't think this is relevant to the discussion.
I think if Terran had a better economic position they could absolutely just dive the Disruptors. Byun started doing that after he evened out with Neeb a little bit and could afford to lose a couple of units. It was pretty effective.
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On December 16 2015 06:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 05:08 cop354g wrote:On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Dont forget how disruptor makes mech really hard. Everytime I play mech the protoss just puts down 3 stargates and a fleet beacon and start pumping out tempests and carriers. Why should you bother with disruptors when you have even better counters to mech?
Anytime I see mech I get Blink Stalkers, Tempests, and Storm.
You still have to micro well as Protoss otherwise it's very easy to lose, but if you scout early, transition into this comp and control your army well I don't think Terran can beat it.
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On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Sniping Disruptors with Ghosts? No.
A PO nerf is necessary. Not a huge one, but the way it is now? The MSC essentially has a ridiculously powerful attack that spawns from Pylons that's on cooldown (yeah it's energy. But 25 energy is basically just a long cooldown).
RE: Disruptors
Disruptors will probably not "eventually be really bad" unless other elements of the game change--assuming it is not directly nerfed (which it should be). It's unlikely that players will just figure out how to dodge infinity nova balls with enough consistency, because Terrans are already extremely good at Bio micro (because we have to be in every match up). But the difference is that the micro pays off in the other matchups. For instance: in TvZ Banelings cost supply, and resources. In TvP nova balls cost time, a resource, for sure, but not one usually worth 145 AOE DMG every few seconds. It's almost the same issue that made the swarm hose so incredibly broken. There is no downside to launching the nova ball every time you have one. And this is at the root of the issue.
Suggesting that the balance of interplay should be:
Protoss shoots nova balls consistently every cooldown, for free, infinitely delaying a full engagement, or potentially causing game-ending damage vs. never engage, waste a full-army stim every few seconds, draining your medivacs | or | gamble the entire game by diving into the Toss deathball and trying to snipe one or two disruptors.
Yeah, we saw Byun do it (because he was probably so incredibly frustrated his bag of fucks was empty), but trust me, this puts a tremendous burden on the Terran player. In other words, the definition of imbalance. Couple this with the Liberator problem I mentioned and something has to change.
But I will concede ... maybe a playstyle will emerge to deal with this. That is possible.
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On December 16 2015 09:23 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Sniping Disruptors with Ghosts? No. A PO nerf is necessary. Not a huge one, but the way it is now? The MSC essentially has a ridiculously powerful attack that spawns from Pylons that's on cooldown (yeah it's energy. But 25 energy is basically just a long cooldown). RE: DisruptorsDisruptors will probably not "eventually be really bad" unless other elements of the game change--assuming it is not directly nerfed (which it should be). It's unlikely that players will just figure out how to dodge infinity nova balls with enough consistency, because Terrans are already extremely good at Bio micro (because we have to be in every match up). But the difference is that the micro pays off in the other matchups. For instance: in TvZ Banelings cost supply, and resources. In TvP nova balls cost time, a resource, for sure, but not one usually worth 145 AOE DMG every few seconds. It's almost the same issue that made the swarm hose so incredibly broken. There is no downside to launching the nova ball every time you have one. And this is at the root of the issue. Suggesting that the balance of interplay should be: Protoss shoots nova balls consistently every cooldown, for free, infinitely delaying a full engagement, or potentially causing game-ending damage vs. never engage, waste a full-army stim every few seconds, draining your medivacs | or | gamble the entire game by diving into the Toss deathball and trying to snipe one or two disruptors. Yeah, we saw Byun do it (because he was probably so incredibly frustrated his bag of fucks was empty), but trust me, this puts a tremendous burden on the Terran player. In other words, the definition of imbalance. Couple this with the Liberator problem I mentioned and something has to change. But I will concede ... maybe a playstyle will emerge to deal with this. That is possible.
Yeah but what I'm saying is if the Protoss can't get as far ahead economically he will have less Disruptors and dodging the nova shots will be a lot easier because there will be less of them.
Like I said when Byun equalized on economy after outplaying neeb all game, he was able to shit all over his disruptors.
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On December 16 2015 06:07 coolman123123 wrote:
The Oracle is really strong within the context of toss early game. Adept drop hits later and is a bigger investment, the ORacle allows you to open with one adept, MSC and Oracle poke extremely early in the game. You basically need a Cyclone to defend and even then you will lose SCVs. If your defense is perfect, you still aren't very far ahead economically. Just the threat of these 3 units, as well as the Warp Prism coming out shortly after, is simply too much and requires Terran to play extremely safe. As others have mentioned, Terran also struggles heavily in straight up fights in the mid game (before libs). The matchup is drifting toward a volatile mess. Reducing the cost AND build time of the Cyclone would help a lot but I'd rather they just phase out the Oracle as an opener because it's such an all or nothing boring unit.
I would definitely disagree that the Adept drop is a bigger investment. To make an Oracle you have to make a Stargate, which unlike the Robotics Facility is otherwise worthless in the matchup until you hit the very late game and want to make Tempests. 2 adepts in a Warp Prism kills SCVs just as fast as an Oracle and 400/50 is a lot less of an investment than 300/300.
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On December 16 2015 23:33 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 06:07 coolman123123 wrote:
The Oracle is really strong within the context of toss early game. Adept drop hits later and is a bigger investment, the ORacle allows you to open with one adept, MSC and Oracle poke extremely early in the game. You basically need a Cyclone to defend and even then you will lose SCVs. If your defense is perfect, you still aren't very far ahead economically. Just the threat of these 3 units, as well as the Warp Prism coming out shortly after, is simply too much and requires Terran to play extremely safe. As others have mentioned, Terran also struggles heavily in straight up fights in the mid game (before libs). The matchup is drifting toward a volatile mess. Reducing the cost AND build time of the Cyclone would help a lot but I'd rather they just phase out the Oracle as an opener because it's such an all or nothing boring unit. I would definitely disagree that the Adept drop is a bigger investment. To make an Oracle you have to make a Stargate, which unlike the Robotics Facility is otherwise worthless in the matchup until you hit the very late game and want to make Tempests. 2 adepts in a Warp Prism kills SCVs just as fast as an Oracle and 400/50 is a lot less of an investment than 300/300.
2 Adepts definitely do not kill workers as fast as an Oracle. But I like the adept drop opening better than the Oracle for the reasons you mentioned. It's safer and gets your Robo out earlier for Observers and Immortals.
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On December 16 2015 10:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 09:23 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Sniping Disruptors with Ghosts? No. A PO nerf is necessary. Not a huge one, but the way it is now? The MSC essentially has a ridiculously powerful attack that spawns from Pylons that's on cooldown (yeah it's energy. But 25 energy is basically just a long cooldown). RE: DisruptorsDisruptors will probably not "eventually be really bad" unless other elements of the game change--assuming it is not directly nerfed (which it should be). It's unlikely that players will just figure out how to dodge infinity nova balls with enough consistency, because Terrans are already extremely good at Bio micro (because we have to be in every match up). But the difference is that the micro pays off in the other matchups. For instance: in TvZ Banelings cost supply, and resources. In TvP nova balls cost time, a resource, for sure, but not one usually worth 145 AOE DMG every few seconds. It's almost the same issue that made the swarm hose so incredibly broken. There is no downside to launching the nova ball every time you have one. And this is at the root of the issue. Suggesting that the balance of interplay should be: Protoss shoots nova balls consistently every cooldown, for free, infinitely delaying a full engagement, or potentially causing game-ending damage vs. never engage, waste a full-army stim every few seconds, draining your medivacs | or | gamble the entire game by diving into the Toss deathball and trying to snipe one or two disruptors. Yeah, we saw Byun do it (because he was probably so incredibly frustrated his bag of fucks was empty), but trust me, this puts a tremendous burden on the Terran player. In other words, the definition of imbalance. Couple this with the Liberator problem I mentioned and something has to change. But I will concede ... maybe a playstyle will emerge to deal with this. That is possible. Yeah but what I'm saying is if the Protoss can't get as far ahead economically he will have less Disruptors and dodging the nova shots will be a lot easier because there will be less of them. Like I said when Byun equalized on economy after outplaying neeb all game, he was able to shit all over his disruptors.
I like how you've managed to--twice now--skip virtually all of the substance of my argument.
Yes, it's true that with less of a free economic lead, Protoss will not be able to mass disruptors as quickly. But what does this mean? Are you talking about a PO nerf, shifting the burder back to Terran to slow down the Toss economy in the early game? Even if you are, this is transient, and doesn't address the fundamental issues I raised, because once Protoss gets a 3-base economy (which is basically every game they don't all-in), they will be able to get as many disruptors as they want, at which point the problems will still exist.
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On December 17 2015 01:56 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 10:54 DinoMight wrote:On December 16 2015 09:23 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Sniping Disruptors with Ghosts? No. A PO nerf is necessary. Not a huge one, but the way it is now? The MSC essentially has a ridiculously powerful attack that spawns from Pylons that's on cooldown (yeah it's energy. But 25 energy is basically just a long cooldown). RE: DisruptorsDisruptors will probably not "eventually be really bad" unless other elements of the game change--assuming it is not directly nerfed (which it should be). It's unlikely that players will just figure out how to dodge infinity nova balls with enough consistency, because Terrans are already extremely good at Bio micro (because we have to be in every match up). But the difference is that the micro pays off in the other matchups. For instance: in TvZ Banelings cost supply, and resources. In TvP nova balls cost time, a resource, for sure, but not one usually worth 145 AOE DMG every few seconds. It's almost the same issue that made the swarm hose so incredibly broken. There is no downside to launching the nova ball every time you have one. And this is at the root of the issue. Suggesting that the balance of interplay should be: Protoss shoots nova balls consistently every cooldown, for free, infinitely delaying a full engagement, or potentially causing game-ending damage vs. never engage, waste a full-army stim every few seconds, draining your medivacs | or | gamble the entire game by diving into the Toss deathball and trying to snipe one or two disruptors. Yeah, we saw Byun do it (because he was probably so incredibly frustrated his bag of fucks was empty), but trust me, this puts a tremendous burden on the Terran player. In other words, the definition of imbalance. Couple this with the Liberator problem I mentioned and something has to change. But I will concede ... maybe a playstyle will emerge to deal with this. That is possible. Yeah but what I'm saying is if the Protoss can't get as far ahead economically he will have less Disruptors and dodging the nova shots will be a lot easier because there will be less of them. Like I said when Byun equalized on economy after outplaying neeb all game, he was able to shit all over his disruptors. I like how you've managed to--twice now--skip virtually all of the substance of my argument. Yes, it's true that with less of a free economic lead, Protoss will not be able to mass disruptors as quickly. But what does this mean? Are you talking about a PO nerf, shifting the burder back to Terran to slow down the Toss economy in the early game? Even if you are, this is transient, and doesn't address the fundamental issues I raised, because once Protoss gets a 3-base economy (which is basically every game they don't all-in), they will be able to get as many disruptors as they want, at which point the problems will still exist.
Well, with a PO nerf Terran won't be pinned in his base all game long because Protoss will have to keep some units at home to defend or risk losing everything to harass.
So that will encourage more trading armies earlier and the Disruptor count won't grow as fast.
That's what I think will happen at least. Wasn't ignoring your argument, maybe just skipping ahead to the conclusion.
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On December 17 2015 02:47 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 01:56 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 16 2015 10:54 DinoMight wrote:On December 16 2015 09:23 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Sniping Disruptors with Ghosts? No. A PO nerf is necessary. Not a huge one, but the way it is now? The MSC essentially has a ridiculously powerful attack that spawns from Pylons that's on cooldown (yeah it's energy. But 25 energy is basically just a long cooldown). RE: DisruptorsDisruptors will probably not "eventually be really bad" unless other elements of the game change--assuming it is not directly nerfed (which it should be). It's unlikely that players will just figure out how to dodge infinity nova balls with enough consistency, because Terrans are already extremely good at Bio micro (because we have to be in every match up). But the difference is that the micro pays off in the other matchups. For instance: in TvZ Banelings cost supply, and resources. In TvP nova balls cost time, a resource, for sure, but not one usually worth 145 AOE DMG every few seconds. It's almost the same issue that made the swarm hose so incredibly broken. There is no downside to launching the nova ball every time you have one. And this is at the root of the issue. Suggesting that the balance of interplay should be: Protoss shoots nova balls consistently every cooldown, for free, infinitely delaying a full engagement, or potentially causing game-ending damage vs. never engage, waste a full-army stim every few seconds, draining your medivacs | or | gamble the entire game by diving into the Toss deathball and trying to snipe one or two disruptors. Yeah, we saw Byun do it (because he was probably so incredibly frustrated his bag of fucks was empty), but trust me, this puts a tremendous burden on the Terran player. In other words, the definition of imbalance. Couple this with the Liberator problem I mentioned and something has to change. But I will concede ... maybe a playstyle will emerge to deal with this. That is possible. Yeah but what I'm saying is if the Protoss can't get as far ahead economically he will have less Disruptors and dodging the nova shots will be a lot easier because there will be less of them. Like I said when Byun equalized on economy after outplaying neeb all game, he was able to shit all over his disruptors. I like how you've managed to--twice now--skip virtually all of the substance of my argument. Yes, it's true that with less of a free economic lead, Protoss will not be able to mass disruptors as quickly. But what does this mean? Are you talking about a PO nerf, shifting the burder back to Terran to slow down the Toss economy in the early game? Even if you are, this is transient, and doesn't address the fundamental issues I raised, because once Protoss gets a 3-base economy (which is basically every game they don't all-in), they will be able to get as many disruptors as they want, at which point the problems will still exist. Well, with a PO nerf Terran won't be pinned in his base all game long because Protoss will have to keep some units at home to defend or risk losing everything to harass. So that will encourage more trading armies earlier and the Disruptor count won't grow as fast. That's what I think will happen at least. Wasn't ignoring your argument, maybe just skipping ahead to the conclusion.
Okay, fair enough. But PO hasn't been nerfed. Are you suggesting that it should be? If so, what nerf would you like to see? For me, I think the energy cost needs to double--at least double--with no other change to its effect.
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On December 17 2015 03:07 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 02:47 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2015 01:56 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 16 2015 10:54 DinoMight wrote:On December 16 2015 09:23 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Sniping Disruptors with Ghosts? No. A PO nerf is necessary. Not a huge one, but the way it is now? The MSC essentially has a ridiculously powerful attack that spawns from Pylons that's on cooldown (yeah it's energy. But 25 energy is basically just a long cooldown). RE: DisruptorsDisruptors will probably not "eventually be really bad" unless other elements of the game change--assuming it is not directly nerfed (which it should be). It's unlikely that players will just figure out how to dodge infinity nova balls with enough consistency, because Terrans are already extremely good at Bio micro (because we have to be in every match up). But the difference is that the micro pays off in the other matchups. For instance: in TvZ Banelings cost supply, and resources. In TvP nova balls cost time, a resource, for sure, but not one usually worth 145 AOE DMG every few seconds. It's almost the same issue that made the swarm hose so incredibly broken. There is no downside to launching the nova ball every time you have one. And this is at the root of the issue. Suggesting that the balance of interplay should be: Protoss shoots nova balls consistently every cooldown, for free, infinitely delaying a full engagement, or potentially causing game-ending damage vs. never engage, waste a full-army stim every few seconds, draining your medivacs | or | gamble the entire game by diving into the Toss deathball and trying to snipe one or two disruptors. Yeah, we saw Byun do it (because he was probably so incredibly frustrated his bag of fucks was empty), but trust me, this puts a tremendous burden on the Terran player. In other words, the definition of imbalance. Couple this with the Liberator problem I mentioned and something has to change. But I will concede ... maybe a playstyle will emerge to deal with this. That is possible. Yeah but what I'm saying is if the Protoss can't get as far ahead economically he will have less Disruptors and dodging the nova shots will be a lot easier because there will be less of them. Like I said when Byun equalized on economy after outplaying neeb all game, he was able to shit all over his disruptors. I like how you've managed to--twice now--skip virtually all of the substance of my argument. Yes, it's true that with less of a free economic lead, Protoss will not be able to mass disruptors as quickly. But what does this mean? Are you talking about a PO nerf, shifting the burder back to Terran to slow down the Toss economy in the early game? Even if you are, this is transient, and doesn't address the fundamental issues I raised, because once Protoss gets a 3-base economy (which is basically every game they don't all-in), they will be able to get as many disruptors as they want, at which point the problems will still exist. Well, with a PO nerf Terran won't be pinned in his base all game long because Protoss will have to keep some units at home to defend or risk losing everything to harass. So that will encourage more trading armies earlier and the Disruptor count won't grow as fast. That's what I think will happen at least. Wasn't ignoring your argument, maybe just skipping ahead to the conclusion. Okay, fair enough. But PO hasn't been nerfed. Are you suggesting that it should be? If so, what nerf would you like to see? For me, I think the energy cost needs to double--at least double--with no other change to its effect.
Well Blizzard said they want to increase the duration and double the energy.
I think this is good because if you stim in and focus one Pylon you can avoid heavy casualties. But if he spams it on 4 Pylons suddenly you have no army left.
Also increasing energy lets you play around it much more. With the reduced range vs HotS I think the longer duration will help Terran A LOT.
Personally I'm scared of proposing PO nerfs because as it is I can't win against Zerg unless they try something really stupid lol.
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PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
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On December 17 2015 04:01 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 03:07 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 17 2015 02:47 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2015 01:56 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 16 2015 10:54 DinoMight wrote:On December 16 2015 09:23 TimeSpiral wrote:On December 16 2015 05:07 DinoMight wrote:
How's the Ghost's ability against Disruptors? Couldn't you Snipe a disruptor after it fires? I think Purification Nova takes long enough to detonate.
I think a PO nerf will make this matchup MUCH easier for Terran. Because Protoss will be infinitely more vulnerable to harass at the beginning of the game.
I think eventually Disruptors will be really bad. Good players dodge them so well as it is.
Sniping Disruptors with Ghosts? No. A PO nerf is necessary. Not a huge one, but the way it is now? The MSC essentially has a ridiculously powerful attack that spawns from Pylons that's on cooldown (yeah it's energy. But 25 energy is basically just a long cooldown). RE: DisruptorsDisruptors will probably not "eventually be really bad" unless other elements of the game change--assuming it is not directly nerfed (which it should be). It's unlikely that players will just figure out how to dodge infinity nova balls with enough consistency, because Terrans are already extremely good at Bio micro (because we have to be in every match up). But the difference is that the micro pays off in the other matchups. For instance: in TvZ Banelings cost supply, and resources. In TvP nova balls cost time, a resource, for sure, but not one usually worth 145 AOE DMG every few seconds. It's almost the same issue that made the swarm hose so incredibly broken. There is no downside to launching the nova ball every time you have one. And this is at the root of the issue. Suggesting that the balance of interplay should be: Protoss shoots nova balls consistently every cooldown, for free, infinitely delaying a full engagement, or potentially causing game-ending damage vs. never engage, waste a full-army stim every few seconds, draining your medivacs | or | gamble the entire game by diving into the Toss deathball and trying to snipe one or two disruptors. Yeah, we saw Byun do it (because he was probably so incredibly frustrated his bag of fucks was empty), but trust me, this puts a tremendous burden on the Terran player. In other words, the definition of imbalance. Couple this with the Liberator problem I mentioned and something has to change. But I will concede ... maybe a playstyle will emerge to deal with this. That is possible. Yeah but what I'm saying is if the Protoss can't get as far ahead economically he will have less Disruptors and dodging the nova shots will be a lot easier because there will be less of them. Like I said when Byun equalized on economy after outplaying neeb all game, he was able to shit all over his disruptors. I like how you've managed to--twice now--skip virtually all of the substance of my argument. Yes, it's true that with less of a free economic lead, Protoss will not be able to mass disruptors as quickly. But what does this mean? Are you talking about a PO nerf, shifting the burder back to Terran to slow down the Toss economy in the early game? Even if you are, this is transient, and doesn't address the fundamental issues I raised, because once Protoss gets a 3-base economy (which is basically every game they don't all-in), they will be able to get as many disruptors as they want, at which point the problems will still exist. Well, with a PO nerf Terran won't be pinned in his base all game long because Protoss will have to keep some units at home to defend or risk losing everything to harass. So that will encourage more trading armies earlier and the Disruptor count won't grow as fast. That's what I think will happen at least. Wasn't ignoring your argument, maybe just skipping ahead to the conclusion. Okay, fair enough. But PO hasn't been nerfed. Are you suggesting that it should be? If so, what nerf would you like to see? For me, I think the energy cost needs to double--at least double--with no other change to its effect. Well Blizzard said they want to increase the duration and double the energy. I think this is good because if you stim in and focus one Pylon you can avoid heavy casualties. But if he spams it on 4 Pylons suddenly you have no army left. Also increasing energy lets you play around it much more. With the reduced range vs HotS I think the longer duration will help Terran A LOT. Personally I'm scared of proposing PO nerfs because as it is I can't win against Zerg unless they try something really stupid lol.
Well, about that last bit. Zerg is truly broken, atm, and this is wildly apparent in Archon Mode, where army control and macro are being played at extremely high levels. This is why it's difficult to talk about the balance of TvP (which favors P, atm) because a nerf to either race could have dramatic impact on the versus Z matchup.
On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
It does, and it's enormously game-changing. Protoss is essentially safe--completely safe--from anything Terran can do in the early and early mid-game. Versus Zerg is another story, obviously, but Zerg is broken.
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The more I play and see pros play, the more I think the only issue is with Tankivacs and the HORRIFIC RIDICULOUS RETARDED POISONOUS DAED GAEM Maps...
I mean, only three are decently playable and even those are beh at best. Impossible thirds, HUGE ass ramps, incredibly close rush distance, incredibly huge rush distance. RIP
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On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...?
The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC?
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On December 17 2015 04:52 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
PO doesn't need a nerf. Remember, if you use it, then you will have less and less energy to recall. Not to mention it's hardly game-changing except a few early game niche timing attacks (which you should learn how to counter without whining for nerfs)
Parkufarku, when will you learn that you have no clue about balance in this game...? The fact PO is in the game already limits options to an INCREDIBLY tiny amount. But well, I'll challenge you. What pressures can Terran reactionary throw at Protoss in the early to mid game when Protoss expands to a third off 1 gate and MSC?
Marine Liberator Tank allin.
Some guy fucked me up with that lol.
But I mean, yeah I get it, Protoss is really really safe in the early game.
The problem is, like Time Spiral said, that any nerf to P FUCKS US SO HARD against Z.
Nerf, photon overcharge, then make Larva take 25% longer to spawn and we'll talk. Matchup is so incredibly one sided ATM.
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On December 17 2015 04:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
The more I play and see pros play, the more I think the only issue is with Tankivacs and the HORRIFIC RIDICULOUS RETARDED POISONOUS DAED GAEM Maps...
I actually disagree completely.
The more I watch Tankivacs, the more I realize that this was the only possible way of making Siege Tanks relevant in this game outside of TvT. There is no damage buff that could ever make up for Stalkers/Adepts being able to instantly get right on top of tanks, or Ravagers being able to outrange them, or Vipers being able to effortlessly shut them down for an instant flood of ling/Roach.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't still get some small damage buff (no fucking overkill to "compensate"), but I have to give credit where credit is due.
I just wish they actually dared to talk about mech in public, so we'd know whether they lucked into this solution or whether real props are warranted.
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EPT
